If there's no self, who are Mediums connecting to?

[Beginner Mind]

(For those who don't know, a Medium is someone who communicates with the dead.)

If no individual self actually exists, and therefore no individual self persists beyond death, then who are these Mediums communicating with?

[Dimi]

To themselves => "Tadaa" (not joking actually)

[Beginner Mind]

@Dimi Right, but according to the Medium they are communicating with an individual spirit...  Which, according to the non-dual masters, does not exist.

[Dimi]

6 minutes ago, Beginner Mind said:

@Dimi Right, but according to the Medium they are communicating with an individual spirit...  Which, according to the non-dual masters, does not exist.

"according to the Medium" ==> What if they don't know that in the end, fundamentally, the "individual spirit" is yet but another expression of GOD, YOU, THEM I'am not saying you can't have experiences like you are talking about, or aliens or whatever else there is to describe for that matter, in the end, it's all YOU (and it isn't)

If that is something that "speaks" to you, get into it, sit for a while, repeat that and see what happens.

❤️?

[Matt8800]

21 minutes ago, Beginner Mind said:

(For those who don't know, a Medium is someone who communicates with the dead.)

If no individual self actually exists, and therefore no individual self persists beyond death, then who are these Mediums communicating with?

@Beginner Mind You can say there is no self yet you communicate with other people in person (and on this forum) as if they are "other". A spirit is different from "you" in exactly a friend of yours is different from "you".

Everything is ONE at the fundamental level. Everything is dual on the multiple levels/realms below that.

[Matt8800]

6 minutes ago, Dimi said:

"according to the Medium" ==> What if they don't know that in the end, fundamentally, the "individual spirit" is yet but another expression of GOD, YOU, THEM I'am not saying you can't have experiences like you are talking about, or aliens or whatever else there is to describe for that matter, in the end, it's all YOU (and it isn't)

If that is something that "speaks" to you, get into it, sit for a while, repeat that and see what happens.

❤️?

@Dimi Would you say the same thing about talking to your friend or relative? It is no different than talking to a spirit.

If you are going to say its just an expression of God, than you would have to say the people you talk to and interact with are also God. You may be one with them (fundamental level) but you are also paradoxically separate (dual realms "under" the fundamental level). 

[Matt8800]

20 minutes ago, Beginner Mind said:

@Dimi Right, but according to the Medium they are communicating with an individual spirit...  Which, according to the non-dual masters, does not exist.

@Beginner Mind More specifically, it would be according to SOME non-dual masters. Others would say that spirits exists in the same way other people exist. It depends on the tradition. Not all non-dual traditions have the same beliefs in that matter.

[Leo Gura]

@Beginner Mind Who are you communicating with right now?

You are conflating absolute and relative matters.

No-self is a facet of the Absolute.

"Other" is a relative construction.

[Nahm]

@Beginner Mind How is more worthwhile than who. Try it. 

[dvdas]

@Beginner Mind interesting question.

Who know's. Assuming that these communications exists maybe physical death is not ego death after all.. 

[Matt8800]

9 hours ago, dvdas said:

@Beginner Mind interesting question.

Who know's. Assuming that these communications exists maybe physical death is not ego death after all.. 

@dvdas  I would say that the physical death is definitely the death of the ego...and personality. The subjective experience of the awareness that was aware of the ego, along with wisdom and will, might be another matter however.

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by Matt8800

[Forestluv]

On 11/11/2019 at 10:53 AM, Beginner Mind said:

 according to the Medium they are communicating with an individual spirit...  Which, according to the non-dual masters, does not exist.

There is an underlying assumption here that there is an objective, universal truth.

According to the Medium they are communicating with an individual spirit. . . so according to the Medium it is true they are communicating with an individual spirit.

According to a nondualist, there is no Medium communicating to a separate individual spirit. . . so according to a nondualist it is true there is no Medium communicating to a separate individual spirit.

We could add in:

According to a scientist. . . 

According to a mystic. . . 

According to a Christian. . . 

According to a philosopher. . . 

According to a psychonaut. . . 

According to a metaphysicist. . . 

According to some dude I met at a concert. . . 

And on and on and on into infinity. . . 

 

 

[Nahm]

@Serotoninluv That’s some delicious juice right there. ⬆️ (According to some guy)

[Forestluv]

@Mikael89

According to Mikael89 maybe what others say is bs.

As stated. . . on and on into infinity. . . 

Trying to grasp relativity is like trying to grasp the wind. . . 

@Nahm 

[Beginner Mind]

@Serotoninluv I would say there's at least one objective, universal truth: "I am", "I exist".  The sense of existence cannot be denied.

If there exists this one universal truth, perhaps other universal truths exist as well?

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, Beginner Mind said:

@Serotoninluv I would say there's at least one objective, universal truth: "I am", "I exist".  The sense of existence cannot be denied.

If there exists this one universal truth, perhaps other universal truths exist as well?

Perhaps, perhaps not. Who knows?

Is your use of "I am" an objective, universal truth? Is it objectively true for a frog? How could we tell if your sense of "I exist" is objectively true for a frog?

From my pov, absolute and objective often get conflated. In this context, I would drop the *I* part and just go with AM-ness. Is AM-ness a universal truth? Is AM-ness true for both a human and frog? . . . You betcha. 

[Dimi]

On 11/11/2019 at 5:12 PM, Matt8800 said:

@Dimi Would you say the same thing about talking to your friend or relative? It is no different than talking to a spirit.If you are going to say its just an expression of God, than you would have to say the people you talk to and interact with are also God.

Yes I would.

On a daily base I remind myself that whatever I am looking at, thinking about and so on, is actually myself. This reminds me to have Love for "others" hence Loving myself and not get to much entangled in other behaviors, which are fine, nothing wrong with anything

On 11/11/2019 at 5:12 PM, Matt8800 said:

You may be one with them (fundamental level) but you are also paradoxically separate (dual realms "under" the fundamental level). 

I am not denying that there isn't anything "different", just like I am not denying my fingers make up my hand. But it is up to you what you identify yourself with Or maybe not

❤️?

[whoareyou]

On 11/11/2019 at 5:53 PM, Beginner Mind said:

@Dimi Right, but according to the Medium they are communicating with an individual spirit...  Which, according to the non-dual masters, does not exist.

You are right, and thus most "mediums" are thus caught up in the illusion of self and other. People that are more conscious don't bother to get involved in that stuff.

 

[whoareyou]

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Beginner Mind Who are you communicating with right now?

You are conflating absolute and relative matters.

No-self is a facet of the Absolute.

"Other" is a relative construction.

Are you going to say that the idea of demons and angels is also just a relative construction?

What about Jesus being the savior that actually died for your sins?

The list can go on.

There is a big difference between waking up and seeing the your dog which is the other, and actual BS that is pure delusion (relatively to this dream)

[Dimi]

31 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

Are you going to say that the idea of demons and angels is also just a relative construction?

What about Jesus being the savior that actually died for your sins?

The list can go on.

There is a big difference between waking up and seeing the your dog which is the other, and actual BS that is pure delusion (relatively to this dream)

Name one thing that isn't relative