Could some people be philosophical zombies?

[Michael Paul]

By this I mean, could some people be totally lacking consciousness and higher intellect? Are there some people who look and act like conscious beings but on the inside they have no subjective experience of reality? And how would we ever know?

I ask this because I also wonder whether everyone possesses Kundalini and if that determines whether they have a subjective consciousness.

I’m not claiming this to be the case of every human, or even the majority of people. But some segment of the population.

[Ananta]

On 11/7/2019 at 5:04 PM, Michael Paul said:

could some people be totally lacking consciousness

 I would say that you are consciousness experiencing a person.

Not the other way around.

So, there would be no way to not have a "subjective experience",(of thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc) when the "illusion" of the person is "within" awareness.

Unless, maybe, you are in a coma.

[Leo Gura]

@Michael Paul

You're not getting it.

There are no people!

People are something you invented, including your own personhood.

Personhood and humanness are imaginary.

You're not appreciating the depth of this whole thing.

[LastThursday]

What Leo says ^^^^

Imagine you have two friends, one is concious, the other a zombie.

You decide to try and work which is which. You watch them for many weeks, but still you can't tell, they behave in very similar ways. Frustrated you start asking them questions. "Are you a zombie?", "No! How dare you!". All the questions you ask come to no avail. You can't tell the difference.

You finally come to the realisation that you're going about it the wrong way.

No matter how you interact with your two friends, it is always appearing in your conciousness awareness.  The appearance and behaviour of your friends is always being interpreted and conceived by you. There's no way around this. Even if you could see through their eyes, it would still be your conscious awareness.

There's no way to know if they're concious or not. You can only tell that you are concious.

But it gets worse, because you yourself are being interpreted and conceived as well (by your ego)! Consciouness doesn't need YOU. YOU are the Zombie.

Edited November 8, 2019 by LastThursday

[Nak Khid]

2 hours ago, Michael Paul said:

Could some people be philosophical zombies?

 All people by definition are philosophical zombies

but some think they aren't

Edited November 8, 2019 by Nak Khid

[Michael Paul]

@Leo Gura How come I’m imagining extreme levels of suffering if I don’t want to suffer at all?

[Leo Gura]

53 minutes ago, Michael Paul said:

@Leo Gura How come I’m imagining extreme levels of suffering if I don’t want to suffer at all?

You are not conscious of what you are doing. You create suffering because you are attached to being a self and staying alive.

To stop creating suffering you'd have to die. But that's unacceptable to you.

You're stuck inside your own insane dream, not understanding how you locked yourself inside. Awakening is the process of investigating how you locked yourself inside.

[CreamCat]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Personhood and humanness are imaginary.

Yet, imaginations are real in the sense that they exist.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

Yet, imaginations are real in the sense that they exist.

Not really. They are nothing.

Existence as you're using that term is still dualistic and something your mind is imagining.

It's all absolutely nothing in the final analysis.

[CreamCat]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not really. They are nothing.

Existence as you're using that term is still dualistic.

I don't have theoretical framework to understand this.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, CreamCat said:

I don't have theoretical framework to understand this.

There is no theory or framework at that level. There is nothing.

[CreamCat]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no theory or framework at that level. There is nothing.

I feel thingness crisply.

[remember]

2 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

I don't have theoretical framework to understand this.

they are and they are not, you are and you are not. it means you smear in space.

Edited November 8, 2019 by remember

[Lento]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Not really. They are nothing.

It's all absolutely nothing in the final analysis.

I thought you said it's all absolute love ?

[arlin]

39 minutes ago, Lento said:

thought you said it's all absolute love ?

It is the same thing according to him. 

Ho could it be? 

He would say you have to experience it. 

He says it's absurd and impossible yet it is the truth. 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Lento said:

I thought you said it's all absolute love ?

I told you, love is nothing.

[Nahm]

15 hours ago, Michael Paul said:

By this I mean, could some people be totally lacking consciousness and higher intellect? Are there some people who look and act like conscious beings but on the inside they have no subjective experience of reality? And how would we ever know?

I ask this because I also wonder whether everyone possesses Kundalini and if that determines whether they have a subjective consciousness.

I’m not claiming this to be the case of every human, or even the majority of people. But some segment of the population.

What you’re calling ‘people which could be lacking consciousness’, is consciousness. Consciousness has never been a product of a body mind, nor possessed, acquired, obtained, achieved, won, lost, traded, given, discovered, retrieved. All of these are thoughts, themselves, consciousness. Thoughts arise in, and as consciousness. Believe the thoughts, and a story, a narration begins to unfold. Let the thoughts go, and no believing, no story, no narration, only silence, only peace, nothing unfolds, nothing witnesses an unfolding . Read your passage, but put the only emphasis on “I mean”, allow all the rest, the words, the meanings, allow it to be absorbed by the “I mean”. Don’t hold out for and answer in words, or in thought... “how could we ever know”, let that thought go too, and listen to the silence, which “returns”, or is “returned to”, feel into yourself. 

Learning, developing skills, talents, your unique gifts, expanding your mind, these are of the world. Of the body & finite mind. It is joyful, these things, but these things are of the body & mind. 

You, are not of the world. You are not the body & mind. You are all bodies, all minds, and you are none of these thoughts. You are infinite perfection, and you can not be hurt, tarnished, nor destroyed, nor can you be improved upon in any way. You are whole, complete, and perfect. Aware of. 

No one possesses kundalini. Every attempt to determine the subjectivity of another, is already a step away, a leaving of the actuality of subjectivity, to a thought, a narrative, that what is thought about, is somehow without subjectivity already. 

Thoughts arise...”the case of every human”, “the majority of people”, “some segment of the population”...these thoughts, assumed related - connected, are the fabric of the story weaved. It is a beautiful story, but the beauty is not derived of the meaning, the definition of “beauty”. The true beauty is derived of you, of the beauty that you are. Let the thoughts go, as they are thoughts, and in the silence, see your beauty as them. 

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, arlin said:

It is the same thing according to him. 

Ho could it be? 

He would say you have to experience it. 

He says it's absurd and impossible yet it is the truth. 

Look at this way guys.  Nothing is real unless you imagine it to be..because there is no physical reality.  There is only mind stuff.  And mind stuff is nothing fundamentally.   That's infinity for you.  And its a paradox at its very core because there is no core.  Our minds will try to rationalize this until the cows come home and we will keep going in circles.  Requires an awakening to really grasp.  Why?  Because you ARE it! You ARE infinity!   You just have to become conscious of it.

 

[WelcometoReality]

9 hours ago, CreamCat said:

I feel thingness crisply.

Form is nothingness.

Nothingness is form?

 

[arlin]

@Inliytened1@Inliytened1  maybe ome day i will get there

10 hours ago, Lento said: