How can I become more multi-perspectival

[Nivsch]

@Serotoninluv @Lento @Aquarius @Nak Khid@Key Elements @Nickyy  @remember thanks all 

On 9.11.2019 at 5:43 PM, Lento said:

I think tier two is higher than tier one as long as you're still in tier one. But when you become at tier two, things start becoming clearer to you, and the hierarchy breaks down. Stage Purple would not be viewed lower than Green anymore. I think it's only at tier two that consciousness starts practically working in a mindful real-time mode. So, it becomes more of a 'case by case' than an 'absolute solution or view for all cases'.

Of course, this quality still can be misused and can be really dangerous. That's where the unhealthy manifestations of Yellow start to appear, it's when you use the wisdom you have for selfish reasons, so that's returning back to beige only with a lot more tools for manipulating reality.

1. Why yellow won't see purple as lower than green? 

2. What manipulations he can do? As i know, yellow won't manipulate the system

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

 

1. Why yellow won't see purple as lower than green? 

There are different aspects of "lower vs. higher" in relative contexts. For example, a 12th grade student is at a higher level relative to a 6th grade student. The 12th grade student will have more advanced cognitive skills - for example their pre-frontal cortex is much more developed allowing them some abstract thinking. The 12th student will be at a higher level of math and a higher level of maturity. . . Yet we wouldn't create a hierarchy of human worth. We wouldn't say the 12th grade student has higher human worth than a 6th grade student. They are simply at different developmental stages. 

[Lento]

47 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

1. Why yellow won't see purple as lower than green? 

2. What manipulations he can do? As i know, yellow won't manipulate the system

1. As you might have noticed, the higher you go with the spiral, the more complex, nuanced, and sophisticated your thinking becomes. We might say that stage Purple has a surface level understanding of life, while stage Green has a deeper understanding. So, high vs. low in terms of the spiral equals complex vs. simple in the actual world. Now, is complex thinking always better than simple thinking? I would say no. Sometimes it is better to think simply about some things, and sometimes it's better to understand them deeply, it mostly depends on the things themselves and how you value them and how they should be fit in your life for you to have an organised healthy system. For example, you don't teach a 1st grader Darwinian evolution, it's way too complex for them to comprehend. Instead, you start with the basics that will build a stepping stone for them to integrate with other stepping stones, and then after they reach some level, you can teach them about evolution. That would be systematic thinking. Notice that no hierarchy of values needs to be constructed. Yet, these, and other kinds of constructions can be made when you're a systematic thinker, and that what we will be discussing in the next point below.

2. To answer this question, we have to take into account that there isn't one way to manage a system or to solve a problem. Some solutions can be more effective than others, and some plans can be better than others, and so on. Reality is really complex, and often times we aren't able to comprehend its complexity. However, tier two people, for some reasons, have the ability to deal with that without much effort. They can handle complex issues, maps, problems, projects, paradoxes, etc... all at once, or at least that's how I imagine them to be like. That being said, how would you manage a system that is clear and obvious to you and vague and obscure to others? Well, it depends. You can be selfish about it, while at the same time monitoring and making sure that your system is sustainable and under control. And you can be selfless about it, while at the same time doing the same thing above. And you can be somewhere in between. So, for example, Taliban leaders know how to manage and manipulate systems. They know how to manipulate Trump and to make him make stupid mistakes. Are they good or evil? I don't know, and I don't care. All I know (assume) is that they're at tier two level of thinking and sophistication, and that Trump isn't.

[Nivsch]

23 minutes ago, Lento said:

Taliban leaders know how to manage and manipulate systems. They know how to manipulate Trump and to make him make stupid mistakes. Are they good or evil? I don't know, and I don't care. All I know (assume) is that they're at tier two level of thinking and sophistication, and that Trump isn't.

That cannot be right in any universe.

Taliban in their barbaric ideology are RED-blue. They know how to manipulate trump because they have overlap with trump in red.

0% yellow.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Nivsch

[Lento]

@Nivsch We'll have to agree to disagree ?

[Forestluv]

Talent and ability does not mean development and higher consciousness. For example, a narcissist can be very good at manipulating people for their own selfish gain. Yet this doesn't mean they are some Tier2 level genuis. Most narcissists at are at a very low development and conscious level. They are acting on impulse, instinct and underlying conditioning - yet do not have unattached awareness of inter-personal dynamics like a stage yellow person is. I was in a relationship with a very skilled narcissist. She was sooo good at manipulating situations and gaslighting. Yet she was also at a very low level of developmental psychology and consciousness. . .. In a sense, it is a paradox. 

Occasionally I see people say that someone like Trump of Jordan Peterson is actually at a Tier 2 level of consciousness. I think not.  

[Lento]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Most narcissists at are at a very low development and conscious level. They are acting on impulse, instinct and underlying conditioning - yet do not have unattached awareness of inter-personal dynamics like a stage yellow person is.

I'm still skeptical of this point.

[remember]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

1. Why yellow won't see purple as lower than green?

green wants to return to where purple is healthy, so in a sense green reintegrates parts of purple again, although it`s only turquoise who manages to return wholistically. in a sense they are on the same level - it`s not even only the simplicity of understanding as lento says but usually the acess to more complex concepts through other cultural life forms that makes the difference between green and purple and in some sense purple is what green looks up to and wants to protect - so how could you place green above purple?

[Forestluv]

33 minutes ago, Lento said:

I'm still skeptical of this point.

It's a nuanced point. It might be better to say that attachment/identification decreases with each stage such that is much less pronounced at Yellow than at Blue. . . As well, one could say that relatively unattached observation appears. . . I think skepticism is natural until it reveals itself. . . Some environments are easier/purer than others. . . For example, while walking through a forest an awareness may reveal itself. An awareness of the environment - yet there is no ownership of the awareness. . . . It's trickier when interacting with other humans and personality dynamics. . . As an example: last week I had a conversation with a woman who specializes in sports psychology and peak performance. She is a coach and a teacher. This is a fascinating area for me and my  curiosity was off the chart. I mentioned a few things about neuroscience and flow states of consciousness. Now she got super curious. We explored so many areas of sports psychology, performance, flow states and neuroscience. There was no "my perpective" vs "her perspective". There were no owners. As well, there was no "I want to impress her with my good ideas" or "I hope she didn't think my idea was stupid". . . Rather there was a free-flowing exploration of ideas and experiences without personalities claiming ownership. These are yellow-level conversations and they are absolutely beautiful. it is like exploring music. No one owns the music in the atmosphere. If we are at a concert, we don't say "the sound of the drum is mine and the sound of the guitar is yours". Rather, there is a flow of sound without ownership. Similarly, there is a flow of ideas and concepts without ownership. It is shared at a collective level of consciousness. . . This is one of the key elements of transitioning from Tier 1 to Tier 2 and it is magnificently beautiful. 

On 11/11/2019 at 2:00 PM, Lento said:

I noticed that the transition between stages happen while the structure of the identity remains untouched. It is still there as a structure, but only the content has changed. That's what I'm asking about. Do you think that at tier two the whole structure of identity dissolves instead of being replaced with another structure/content?

I think that's a good question and also nuanced. From one perspective, there is transcendence of content. A meta view of structure. For example, a blue level person that is immersed in Christian content may go to a University and be in a totally different environment. They may take a science course and a religious studies course and transcend their immersion in religious christian content. They may realize "Wait a minute. Parts of my religion are irrational. And all religions have similarities. They have different content, yet similar structure. If I was born in the middle east, I would have probably become muslim". This can lead to a transcendence of the content and a meta view of the structure. The structure of the identity can be totally transformed. With this awakening, the identification with religion may quickly dissolve. It's like realizing you've been playing a character in a move and that you no longer need to play that character. 

This would be transcending blue to orange. Can new content and structure arise? Yes, the new content (movie) is that I am now an atheist. I am a rational person that believes in science, logic and evidence. This is a new identification with new content and structure. A new movie. And this can be transcended as well when we enter Green and Yellow. 

[remember]

1 hour ago, Lento said:

So, for example, Taliban leaders know how to manage and manipulate systems. They know how to manipulate Trump and to make him make stupid mistakes. Are they good or evil? I don't know, and I don't care. All I know (assume) is that they're at tier two level of thinking and sophistication, and that Trump isn't.

 

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

2. What manipulations he can do? As i know, yellow won't manipulate the system

it`s a good question if taliban is at tier two - i doubt that! although they have network structures and act gut intelligent, what doesn`t make them yellow. they just use in a sense a very old  yellow system/structure, but their motives are red/blue.

[Nivsch]

@Lento Even IQ of 2000 is still doesn't raise at all the chances to be yellow.

IQ is a pure orangic concept ?

Edited November 13, 2019 by Nivsch

[remember]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

@Lento Even IQ of 2000 is still doesn't raise at all the chances to be yellow.

IQ is a pure orangic concept ?

i`m eating pomelo right now.

you could say, yellow is already part of their purple. but they haven`t been updating on green for a long time.

Edited November 13, 2019 by remember
just wanted to mention a pomelo is even bigger than an orange...

[Lento]

@Serotoninluv

I'm really curious to know where you studied Spiral Dynamics from. 'Unattached awareness' does not seem to be mentioned in the original site. I don't even recall Leo saying anything as such.

@Nivsch

I look at Taliban leadership, and I see them checking all of the mentioned items, maybe except for the last two words, although they're still open to negotiations while Trump isn't. I'm not saying that I like their leadership, or that I support them, that would be crazy to even think of. And I'm not even saying that they're healthy stage Yellow, but rather that they're extremely toxic to the whole of humanity. But, to see and understand their position feels so eye-opening to me. After all, nothing exists in vain, and I'd rather learn even from my enemies. Plus, we can't help the lower stages evolve as long as we view them as bad or evil or unconscious.

..

I think you guys are confusing being a hippy with stage Green. And to be more honest I think you're being dogmatic about your understanding of SD. I apologise, and I'm not trying to appear superior or anything, but I had to let it out. I think you are confusing the examples for the respective stages. Just because hippies can be an obvious example of stage Green does not make all of them so, hippies do exist at stage Purple, Blue, Green, and I would say even at Turquoise. Be careful with the way you interpret Leo's videos. He has his own biases and he seems to be conscious and determined about them. In fact, I think Actualized.org is a good example of a slightly selfish stage Yellow. I, on the other hand, am trying to be as objective as possible, even though I may be nowhere near objectivity.

Bless.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Lento
Minor adjustments

[Forestluv]

37 minutes ago, Lento said:

@Serotoninluv

I'm really curious to where you studied Spiral Dynamics from. 'Unattached awareness' does not seem to be mentioned in the original site.

Beck and Cowan’s book entitled Spiral Dynamics. As well as learning through the direct experience of evolving up the spiral. 
Focusing on specific terms is often a distraction. A fundamental feature of Tier1 to Tier2 is transcendence of the personality structure. The term “unattached awareness” is just an expression of that. I wouldn’t get too caught up on the term, the underlying meaning/essence is the key.

And the Taliban is not stage Yellow. That’s a misunderstanding of the spiral.

There are various ways to contextualize “hippie”. In the standard usage of the term “hippie”, their traits are stage green. 

[Lento]

@Serotoninluv

I see. Have fun.

[remember]

emotional and spiritual development: purple, red, blue.
organizational development: green, yellow

although they did not develope that system by themselves, the system existed already in their purple (trader networking) and in their blue (religious infrastructure worldwide) - you don’t have to be yellow to work with all of that (like you don’t have to be yellow to work with a computer) although the technology is in yellow. they are like clan chefs working in a highly developed infrastructure they act out red and blue, what seems to be green about them is a mixture of that with purple.
although the figures who fused all of that - well that‘s another story.

Edited November 14, 2019 by remember

[Nivsch]

What the Taliban and humanism, non-violence, emotional intelligence have in common??

Its like to put olives on a bread with nutella.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Nivsch

[Lento]

45 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

What the Taliban and humanism, non-violence, emotional intelligence have in common??

Perhaps you will know if you put yourself in their shoes. Oh wait, you already are. You live in Israel. How do you feel about the Arabs (the ones who are at war with Israel) constantly fighting against you? That's how Taliban feels towards the USA (and vice-versa, Arabs feel the same about you).

Do you really want to learn how to become multi-perspectival? Try seeing the war you're in from the other side.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Lento

[remember]

59 minutes ago, Lento said:

Perhaps you will know if you put yourself in their shoes. Oh wait, you already are. You live in Israel. How do you feel about the Arabs fighting against you? That's how Taliban feels towards the USA.

And by the way, that's how the Arabs (the ones who are at war with Israel)  feel about Israel as well.

Do you really want to learn how to become multi-perspectival? Try seeing the war you're in from the other side.

well of course it`s always good to see your own red and blue mechanisms from the other side. political structures are internal and external stuctures - it does never mean that if we live in a certain structure that we are in complete harmony with it. why, because it´s sometimes not the structure but the content. of course pushing people into the limits of their being meaning into beige, will at one point always backlash - a fight for survival is in a sense always justified, by the survival alone. and there is no change without making some noise.

we use to be judgmental about beige the most, even though it`s the colour that needs the most attention. because at one point all colours fuse into the illusion of light, which is transparency.

Edited November 14, 2019 by remember
olive nutella lol... best vision ever - sounds like pregnancy food...