What are the most relialble /convincing sources about societal and adult development?

[Elisabeth]

Hi, 

I'm thinking about preparing a lecture about spiral dynamics, or perhaps adult development in general, so as to spread the message. However, citing Don Beck's books as the only source for spiral dynamics knowledge doesn't seem quite convincing. 

Has the SD model been confirmed by further research in the last two decades? Or is it a one-man show? 

I know Ken Wilber supposedly wrote a book comparing different developmental models - which one is it? 

Should I perhaps take some kind of a more mainstream view on cultural development than the (trademarked) spiral dynamics? 

Leo has talked at length about how SD is relevant to American politics, but how about Europe, and post-communist countries especially? Are there any books which apply spiral dynamics to the development in the former "eastern block"? 

Is there any literature on how to help societies transcend into more green and yellow?

Thanks a lot

[Elisabeth]

I got some of my answers from this website http://www.integratedsociopsychology.net/

The author makes an effort to compare the different developmental models out there and comments on discrepancies.  Seems some of them are sorta kinda in agreement. But she will admit there hasn't been enough research, and stuff is unclear - even stuff like whether you can skip stages. Even stuff like whether Maslow's pyramid is a valid model, i.e. whether higher needs only emerge when lower needs are satisfied and whether they emerge in the same order in all people (she hints they probably don't). 

I find myself torn between "I knew it, the model(s) can be trusted", and "I knew it, the model(s) can't be trusted". Like, yeah, the overall picture is interesting, but some of the most suspicious parts? Serious researchers have also questioned them and came up with contradictions to the original claim. It seems to me psychological "rules" never ever apply to everyone. 

The most questionable claim of spiral dynamics - to me it is still this connection between culture and the individual. I suspect the link between cultural history & competing stages in the contemporary world & and individual development isn't quite working. After all if you're born to green parents, you'll probably never go the same kind of orange as someone who wasn't in touch with green. But maybe I don't understand it right.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Elisabeth

[Leo Gura]

You're misunderstanding a few key points.

1) All models are limited. There is no such thing as "a valid model".

2) You are expecting a social consensus and authority on cutting edge insights which almost no humans know about. That's not how knowledge works. Maybe in 100 years you will have that. But by that point your presention will be useless because everyone will already know it. The whole point of cutting edge teachings is that people will deny them like subborn mules. So this idea of using authority firgures to prove your point is backwards.

3) You need to spend a lot more time studying Spiral Dynamics and developmental psychology in genernal before you can appreciate what SD offers and its limitations.

4) SD is a very complex model which maps very complex phenomena. This is not like mapping a few molecules or billard balls, which is easy compared to mapping the collective human psyche.

[Girzo]

Frederic Laloux has written a book about stages of development of organizations and used Wilber's nomenclature in doing so. It's called Reinventing Organisations. I totally vouch for it, it's a great book.

In this book he has listed people working on development thories starting with:

• Ken Wilber
  • A Brief History of Everything
  • Integral Psychology
• Jenny Wade - Changes of Mind

And others like:

• Don Beck - Spiral Dynamics
• Susanne Cook-Greuter - Ego Development
• Georg Feuerstein - Structures of Consciousness
• James Fowler - Stages of Faith
• Carol Gilligan - In a Different Voice
• Clare W. Graves - The Never Ending Quest
• Robert Kegan - In Over Our Heads
• Lawrence Kohlberg - The Philosophy of Moral Development
• Jane Loevinger - Ego Development
• Jean Piaget - The Psychology of the Child

[Elisabeth]

@Girzo Thank you! 

@Leo Gura Thank you too. Yes I still seek authority. It's partly because I'm afraid to speak. I know dismissive reactions will come, and I can't stand my ground. Of course, this could be because my understanding is not deep enough. 

Even if there is not a wide consensus, I was hoping to see at least some new supporting evidence from academic circles - spiral dynamics being around for 20+ years.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Elisabeth

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Elisabeth said:

I know dismissive reactions will come, and I can't stand my ground.

That is the crux of the matter.

That is gonna limit your growth. The highest wisdom will not be supported by society at all. You will be all on your own. In fact, people will tear your down and demonize you and call you crazy. And you have to be wise and strong enough to laugh off their ignorance.

Ignorant people love to gaslight the wise with their ignorance. You gotta rise above this kinda thing because you will encounter it a lot going forward. I get it on a daily basis.

[Key Elements]

@Elisabeth most ppl will not even bother with SD if you explain it to them. A lot of ppl are orange. So, for example, if you conduct a scientific experiment of their topic in science, they will understand. If you go above that, like how can science help the environment, they may lose interest. Maybe their goal in life at the moment is just to get a career at Genentech and possibly win a Nobel Peace Prize in science.  You may want to try to find a way to reach out by finding a way to let science help the environment, for example. Or, you could do both--healthy orange (majority), healthy green (minority), and the percentages go lower in tier 2.

[Sirius Orion]

@Leo Gura"You gotta rise above this kinda thing because you will encounter it a lot going forward. I get it on a daily basis." > could you elaborate (maybe a blog video or short article)  on how to rise above and not give a fuck about mainstream low consciousness trolling ? How to remain grounded in one's own validation and authority ? How deep do you personally still get emotionnally triggered or irritated by the criticism you receive ?

[Leo Gura]

@Sirius Orion Already covered in the How Authority Works video.

The more awakenings you have, the more you fully take back your authority as God, the less you care about unconscious trolls.

[Nickyy]

8 hours ago, Sirius Orion said:

@Leo Gura"You gotta rise above this kinda thing because you will encounter it a lot going forward. I get it on a daily basis." > could you elaborate (maybe a blog video or short article)  on how to rise above and not give a fuck about mainstream low consciousness trolling ? How to remain grounded in one's own validation and authority ? How deep do you personally still get emotionnally triggered or irritated by the criticism you receive ?

Be present. You see exactly where people are coming from when you're not in the mind defending your identity. Then act from that place. If you act from anywhere else except knowing what is real, you have already been played by the troll. You can even ask them for more information and feedback so you can get a better understanding of where they are at. Sometimes they have something of value to offer, but you have to be present enough to see what's about them vs. the gem they have to offer you. Turn every experience to your advantage, it's all useful.

How you take feedback is a measure of your development 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Nickyy

[Aeris]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Sirius Orion Already covered in the How Authority Works video.

The awakenings you have, the more you fully take back your authority as God, the less you care about unconscious trolls.

My favorit video. Need to be listened more than once.

But right you need knowledge and be self grounded if you want to know it is truth

Edited November 10, 2019 by Aeris

[Dan502]

Who's the lecture for?

There are trends that can be observed without SD. If in doubt, maybe you could introduce it subtly.

 

[Nickyy]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Sirius Orion Already covered in the How Authority Works video.

The awakenings you have, the more you fully take back your authority as God, the less you care about unconscious trolls.

Leo, how do you deal with people higher up trying to gaslight you? 

I've experienced this before. I just ignored the person because it was clear that they weren't interested in helping, but asserting their own agenda onto me.

[Leo Gura]

43 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

Leo, how do you deal with people higher up trying to gaslight you? 

It's a delicate balance of staying open to feedback and willing to re-asses one's position, but also being very clear about what the Absolute Truth is and not giving an inch when it comes to that.

One of the fruits of lots of serious self-inquiry is that you become grounded in direct experience so deeply that other people's ideas/beliefs no longer become important.

Basically you ground yourself in Consciousness, God, Truth, and Love. When you are coming from that place, nothing else matters and you have true strength.

[Elisabeth]

 

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, Dan502 said:

Who's the lecture for?

There are trends that can be observed without SD. If in doubt, maybe you could introduce it subtly.

@Dan502 The thing is, we have a very bottom-up new political party in Czech Republic. They are getting a lot of conscious politics right, I would say a lot of their base is still orange(-green), but the leaders aspire to green-yellow. I thought it would be totally cool if at least some people in that party had this tool at their disposal. I don't know exactly how to reach that audience yet, but they have platforms such as "open university" where anyone can speak, so it might be doable. 

However it's probably not going to happen, as I'm extremely nervous  Maybe I'll try a 'safer' audience of people who I know first to get some confidence, or I'll find a communication channel which doesn't involve my public speaking on a topic where I'm still shaky. 

[Elisabeth]

I asked my facebook friend, who's like the head of a sociological institute, if he's ever heard about Clare Graves or Spiral dynamics, and... guess what, he hasn't.

It's probably really fringe ideas. I know SD is known in coaching circles, and maybe Ken Wilber is better known in USA, but nope, not our sociology. Knowing how academic research works today, I'm not surprised - you can't take on broad bold subjects, because you have to deliver quick results.

[Codrina]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Basically you ground yourself in Consciousness, God, Truth, and Love

 

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

the less you care about unconscious trolls.

Is it just me or there's something wrong here? Why the disrespect for unconscious people?  What makes them less of God, and why do we feel like they deserve less of our consideration? 

[ajasatya]

@Codrina I'm not here to defend Leo's points of view, but there's nothing wrong there. Trolls do not want to be taken seriously. They just want to ridicule things and cause mess and chaos. Not paying attention to them is different from not respecting them. I respect everyone but I couldn't care less for trolls, as they wish.

[Codrina]

I don't know...I think all human beings want to be loved and appreciated, most of them are just to broken to admit it to themselves. 

 

[ajasatya]

5 minutes ago, Codrina said:

I don't know...I think all human beings want to be loved and appreciated, most of them are just to broken to admit it to themselves.

That's true but what can you do? Nothing can be done until one opens up to Love. While spending time trying to be affectionate towards trolls, you'd be much more effective spending time with those who already know their need for Love.