Do you necessarily have to suffer to purify the ego and live in bliss?

[Pernani]

I mean almost everyone here seems to appreciate hardcore spirituality no matter the cost, of course you could say this is a naive way of thinking or that I should take things seriously, but let's not jump to conclusions here. We've all heard Eckhart Tolle's awakening story and how he had to go through years of excruciating suffering in order to finally awaken right before he kills himself, most of us would agree that that level of suffering is unnecessary awaken (and consequently live in bliss). So I was thinking what if the same applies to current hardcore spiritual paths? That the inevitable suffering that you have to go through in that path, is not really necessary.

I think I have heard something similar in one of Matt Kahn's videos, that there is the hellish path and the heavenly path to awakening. Now if you're like me and you appreciate this limited time you have here as a limited human form and want to make the best of it, then you value living your life to the fullest and being the happiest you can be. After all you're gonna die one day and probably totally awaken, so there's no rush.

 Many of you here have had awakenings and great spiritual progress, each following their own path, if you know of a possibility of an alternative way I would like to hear abt it  

Edited November 3, 2019 by Pernani

[Jkris]

@Pernani Dont drop your intellect.

Dont blindly believe in what you read.

What suffers - that is a very important question to ponder enquire.

What causes suffering.

Eckhart tolle suffered from depression doesnt mean all in the world has to undergo severe depression and Ramana Maharishi happpened to get enlightenment due to intense fear of death doesnt mean all must try to imagine and try to create intense fear of death.

There is no need of hellish path.Nothing serious.

Take care of the body.Healthy food.Healthy excercise breathing excercise.Try to be mindful.Patanjali can be helpful.self enquiry.Nature.Prayer.Mantra chanting.All can be helpful.

[Buba]

Whatever practice you do, you will enter Dark Night.

[Aaron p]

The only people I have seen who really take this shit seriously are those who have suffered incredible pain. I myself have suffered immensely and deeply, I remember one day I was in a doctor's room so confused and bewildered...trying to quantify and put into words the amount of suffering I was experiencing. Really, I am the lucky one...I find it easy to be motivated towards spirituality, it heals me more and more. When I stop I suffer. Brilliant, brilliant fuel for spirituality. Really makes you take it seriously. I feel for those who turn to religion, those who aren't wise enough to perceive what religion points to. 

I would say it would be very hard for a "happy" person to discover God. Of course nobody is really happy without God...not permanently. If you have someone who thinks they're happy, and who isint wise or conscious...chances are, that person will only become God at their physical death bed. And that's shite, I wana be God in the flesh! I want to see infinite beauty while I occupy this body. God mode lol. 

Suffering is gooooooooood for spiritual shit. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Aaron p

[themovement]

@Aaron p What he said, but yeah you dont have to suffer. Be happy man 

[mandyjw]

There are times when power flows through you strongly. They are judged by the mind as either intense joy, bliss states or intense pain, depression or anger. The mind perpetuates the state but if you can surrender right there (literally feels like you're going to die and you will watch the mind come up with all kinds of objections), take a belly breath, go into the body and feel the energy as just that, energy, something amazing happens.

It's a kind of alchemy. Suffering is an opportunity, but it's always a missed opportunity because as soon as you take it it's not suffering anymore.  

[Leo Gura]

Ego = suffering

Suffering is not optional for ego. It's how it keeps itself alive.

So long as your identity is less than infinite, you will suffer because you are disconnected from Truth.

False perception creates all suffering.

[Nahm]

How much knowledge, identity, attachment, possessions, relationships, desires, plans, etc, would you have had to let go of when you were eight years old?  

[Forestluv]

@Pernani I think what you are getting at is the actual experience rather than intellectual conceptualization. As Leo quoted in his recent video "It's all fun and games until someone loses an *I*". It can be fun and games discussing it intellectually in cafes and on forums, yet when it's time to face the music, the experience can be uncomfortable at times. I'm imagining climbing Mt. Everest. Thinking about it can be intriguing and exciting. Yet actually doing it and experiencing it is different. I imagine those that actually climb Mt. Everest have undergone some uncomfortable mental and physical conditions. In addition to feeling motivated and adventurous, I'm sure there are times when they feel fearful and anxious. They may face frostbite or hypothermia. They may face a technical challenge they are unsure they can do. At times they may be empowered, other times insecure. There are times when they feel they can't handle it and out. 

There aren't any guarantee how the journey will unfold. For some it may be relatively smooth, for others it may involve a lot of suffering. Yet I would think those that make it to the top of Mt. Everest place the top as the top. There are times when reaching the top is more important than security and comfort. . . Imagine a hiker considering Mt. Everest saying "I don't want to suffer during this ascent. Is suffering necessary?". . . It's not so much whether suffering is necessary or not. It's that this mentality will likely be a huge block. As soon as this hiker faces discomfort, what will happen? They will turn around. Similarly, when a mindset is asking "Will seeking Truth involve suffering?" or "What is seeking Truth doesn't benefit me?" - there are huge barriers. Along the path, as soon as one faces discomfort or sacrifice, they will bail.

Yet this doesn't mean we need to manufacture suffering. Someone climbing Mt. Everest shouldn't do it naked to manufacture suffering. The person can wear warm clothing and bring supplementary CO2. Similarly, we can be kind to the mind and body along the path. For example, we wouldn't take 200ug of LSD and jump into a pitful of snakes. This would traumatize the mind and body and likely cause PTSD issues that the mind and body would need to work through. 

[arlin]

What is wrong with suffering?

I don't understand when people reject suffering. It is part of the human nature. Without it, you would not be able to grow. Much like a tree can't grow if it does not go through the tension of life, you will not grow if you don't face your tension of your life. 

Real spirituality has nothing to do with suffering. Real spirituality is investigating the metaphysics and the nature of reality. Using spirituality as an excuse to escape suffering is like telling a baby to not cry when mom is not home because there is a god and infinite love,  and we are all good.

You have a human life. I think it would be more helpful to do therapy, healing childhood wounds know how to deal with life. Otherwise you will always reject the human side of you. This is abandonement. Or to be more realistic, it sound like a coping mechanism.

You should fully embrace ego and suffering.

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by arlin

[Pernani]

I am aware that spirituality and suffering have a strong connection (because ego is connected to suffering) and that there is nothing wrong with that, that it can be a strong element in personal and spiritual growth. But I'm wondering if that's the only way, if purification does in essence equate to suffering. Leo said in one of his vids that when you sit to meditate and feel the resistance and suffering of the ego wanting to not concentrate and be conscious, that that's literally the devil leaving your body. What if that's not necessarily true? As in you can love your ego to death or maybe let go so deeply that you're just blissful while dissolving the ego and not having to go through much suffering?

Thanks for all the wonderful and thoughtful replies, I do agree that I need to contemplate this for myself more to really get a clear picture, but I just wanna hear from your experiences as many here have already had awakened through different paths

[Forestluv]

@Pernani Are you asking this out of theoretical curiosity? Or are you asking because you want to continue down a spiritual path and want to minimize the potential suffering you may encounter?

These are two very different orientations. For example, I may be curious in theory whether it's possible to learn how to scuba dive without any anxiety. That is very different than if I am actually going to go scuba diving for the first time and since I've had anxiety disorders, I'm worried about going into panic during the dive and I want to minimize the chance of that happening. 

[SoonHei]

@Serotoninluv love your ways broooo

preacchhhh

[Pernani]

35 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Pernani Are you asking this out of theoretical curiosity? Or are you asking because you want to continue down a spiritual path and want to minimize the potential suffering you may encounter?

These are two very different orientations. For example, I may be curious in theory whether it's possible to learn how to scuba dive without any anxiety. That is very different than if I am actually going to go scuba diving for the first time and since I've had anxiety disorders, I'm worried about going into panic during the dive and I want to minimize the chance of that happening. 

I'm asking this because I'm already down the spiritual path and I'm already a lot of suffering (not really overwhelming, but I can see more and more intense it gets the deeper I dive in and the more seirously I take it) and I don't want to make the path harder than it has to be. Although I'm still willing to go through suffering if it means it'll make my life better and more fulfilling down the road.

[SoonHei]

@Pernani tbh. there's no guarantee on way or another as @Serotoninluv said.

you may have a smooth sailing or rough waters towards your goal.

i like to think of it as starting at a point on a circle and going either clockwise or counter-clockwise.

both ways will eventually bring you full-circle back to the same point. 

 

 

i can't recall the exact quote but i think ramana maharshi talks about going the way directly or via knowledge. one path is thru devotion/love of the god. very-much of the man moving towards god and merging into him and the other path is man-losing himself to find god.

 

one is via the man becoming everything = god

the other is man losing all and becoming nothing = god

clockwise

counter-clockwise

GOD = everything = nothing

both ways, suffering is not avoided technically... because there's no sure-set path that doesn't involve suffering.

 

the 2 ways there can be seen by examples of let's say eckhart tolle/adyashanti... whereupon complete defeat/surrender and letting go - dying to their self - revealed the truth of god.

 

vs sadhguru jaggi who was sitting in meditation, all well in life and just merged with god and felt one with existence/everything. 

not to say it wasn't WONKY for him. but not your traditional "suffering" there

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Pernani said:

I'm asking this because I'm already down the spiritual path and I'm already a lot of suffering (not really overwhelming, but I can see more and more intense it gets the deeper I dive in and the more seriously I take it) and I don't want to make the path harder than it has to be. Although I'm still willing to go through suffering if it means it'll make my life better and more fulfilling down the road.

There are ways we can treat the mind and body lovingly to minimize unnecessary suffering along the path. For example, we wouldn't want to traumatize the mind and body by taking a large dose of psychedelics on an airplane. This is not a good setting for a large dose and could needlessly cause trauma and PTSD. . . Yet, there is a certain amount of discomfort inherent in transcending the ego. For me, there have been periods of high anxiety. So, I've tried to be kind to my mind and body and not give it more than it can handle. It's also possible to go through ego backlash, periods of depression and "what's the point? why do anything" spaces. 

You say that you are motivated to make your life better and more fulfilling. Ime, as I got to the deeper levels more and more was surrendered: including my life and fulfillment. There are a lot of spiritual areas that focus on improving life and fulfillment. Yet there are also areas in which all of that is deconstructed and transcended. I would be mindful of what your desires are. If your desires are life improvement/fulfillment and you enter areas in which your life, improvement and fulfillment get deconstructed and transcended, it could be counter to the desires of the mind and body - causing a lot distress. As Leo quoted in a recent video "It's all fun and games until someone loses and *I*". . . The desire to know Truth regardless of the consequences on life improvement and fulfillment is a different orientation. I'm not saying one is better than the other. Yet I would be mindful about which rabbit holes I go down and how far down I go. 

 

[Pernani]

19 hours ago, SoonHei said:

@Pernani tbh. there's no guarantee on way or another as @Serotoninluv said.

you may have a smooth sailing or rough waters towards your goal.

i like to think of it as starting at a point on a circle and going either clockwise or counter-clockwise.

both ways will eventually bring you full-circle back to the same point. 

 

 

i can't recall the exact quote but i think ramana maharshi talks about going the way directly or via knowledge. one path is thru devotion/love of the god. very-much of the man moving towards god and merging into him and the other path is man-losing himself to find god.

 

one is via the man becoming everything = god

the other is man losing all and becoming nothing = god

clockwise

counter-clockwise

GOD = everything = nothing

both ways, suffering is not avoided technically... because there's no sure-set path that doesn't involve suffering.

 

the 2 ways there can be seen by examples of let's say eckhart tolle/adyashanti... whereupon complete defeat/surrender and letting go - dying to their self - revealed the truth of god.

 

vs sadhguru jaggi who was sitting in meditation, all well in life and just merged with god and felt one with existence/everything. 

not to say it wasn't WONKY for him. but not your traditional "suffering" there

The more i read through the responses the more I see my question as more and more useless, it's like I'm too attached to control something that is beyond my control, maybe the only control you really have is to not make urself suffer unnecessarily just by following prudence and common sense, which really doesn't amount to much because that's already well known. So you maybe you really have no control beyond setting intention and desire, as in the path has it's own intelligence and it will unfold as it should, maybe based on your own unique situation. So maybe one should just let go and just trust the path, but if you trust the path too much you might end up getting nowhere because of lack of structure and deliberate control ? So you have to plan it out but also let go, and somehow balance the two?

Dont mind me, just my scattered thoughts hahhaha

18 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

There are ways we can treat the mind and body lovingly to minimize unnecessary suffering along the path. For example, we wouldn't want to traumatize the mind and body by taking a large dose of psychedelics on an airplane. This is not a good setting for a large dose and could needlessly cause trauma and PTSD. . . Yet, there is a certain amount of discomfort inherent in transcending the ego. For me, there have been periods of high anxiety. So, I've tried to be kind to my mind and body and not give it more than it can handle. It's also possible to go through ego backlash, periods of depression and "what's the point? why do anything" spaces. 

You say that you are motivated to make your life better and more fulfilling. Ime, as I got to the deeper levels more and more was surrendered: including my life and fulfillment. There are a lot of spiritual areas that focus on improving life and fulfillment. Yet there are also areas in which all of that is deconstructed and transcended. I would be mindful of what your desires are. If your desires are life improvement/fulfillment and you enter areas in which your life, improvement and fulfillment get deconstructed and transcended, it could be counter to the desires of the mind and body - causing a lot distress. As Leo quoted in a recent video "It's all fun and games until someone loses and *I*". . . The desire to know Truth regardless of the consequences on life improvement and fulfillment is a different orientation. I'm not saying one is better than the other. Yet I would be mindful about which rabbit holes I go down and how far down I go. 

 

Honestly even though I'm doing spiritual practices and take in a lot of spiritual theory I'm still not delving too deep into it, cause I feel like I have my whole mess of a life to take care of and enjoy first before I'm convinced of letting go of this mortal life completely (although I admit that sometimes spirituality is too attractive that I end up giving it all my focus, and forgetting abt all that I swept under the carpet).

Is there really a distinction between fulfillment/improvement and transcendence/deconstruction? Dont they both make life worth living in their own way? You say say none is better than the other, but ppl obviously believe and talk as if transcendence is way more worthwhile of a path and that it's better, and that it makes everything else just a waste of time. This important to me and also confusing to me because I'm very opportunistic and I always want the BEST, the MOST FULFILLING and the HAPPIEST... Which is not without its own flaws

[SoonHei]

@Pernani yes. the key is balance. when you hear "you don't have control" it means to an extent... if i were to ask you right now to raise your right hand, you can raise your right hand at your will - can you not? you can also choose to dance in public or not. so you have free will to an extent which is dependent on your circumstance and the level of master over your body/power of will.

a baby does not have much master control over how to move his body etc. a baby/kid does not have much control over if a fart is to be held or just letting it rip. but you have that conscious and deliberate control. so don't be confused about not having that control and the ability to make wise choices along the way. also. you have no control over your heart-beat... infact, that is such an effortless process that it is automatic for you... so there are degrees of the master of effortlessness. breathing is also effortless for you. without conscious awareness it happens on its own.

at the same time, when something has occurred, don't waste much time in dreading it - just keep moving forward and on. this is trusting the path and the process. you can drive the car, you can steer it clear of obstacles on the road and pothole etc. but if the road ahead simply is all broken, then you cannot steer clear because the whole of the road is an obstacle. in those moments, trust the path, the power, the one - have faith and miracles will come and save you.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Pernani said:

Is there really a distinction between fulfillment/improvement and transcendence/deconstruction? Dont they both make life worth living in their own way? You say say none is better than the other, but ppl obviously believe and talk as if transcendence is way more worthwhile of a path and that it's better, and that it makes everything else just a waste of time. This important to me and also confusing to me because I'm very opportunistic and I always want the BEST, the MOST FULFILLING and the HAPPIEST... Which is not without its own flaws

I think this is a great question. It's something I've contemplated a lot myself. It reminds me of my first two Ayahuasca ceremonies. . . During the first ceremony, the whole story of "me" was deconstructed. At first, it was odd and a bit uncomfortable. Yet then I noticed that the deconstruction/transcendence of me was kinda cool. I was one with everyone at the ceremony. I was one with the music. I felt such deep love. I was fully in the moment. I walked outside and the mountains in the moonlight was so mystical and beautiful. I thought "How have I missed such beauty my entire life?". At the end of the ceremony, we all sat around eating fruit together. It was so beautiful, fulfilling and blissful. . . Two days later, the second ceremony was much different. As my story got deconstructed, there were lessons that appeared. Lessons about how my personality was created. For example, how hyper self-criticism during my life conditioned a subconscious insecurity complex. And how this subconscious insecurity affected my subconscious interactions with other people. This was uncomfortable to look at. I wanted to go back to the fulfilling, blissful realm of the first ceremony. I tried to steer things away from the insecurity to bliss, yet didn't have control. Then anxiety appeared. Overall, they were uncomfortable lessons to look at, yet they revealed insight into my subconscious programming. What had been subconscious was now conscious. One reason it was subconscious was that I didn't want to look at it. . . This expanded consciousness/awareness allowed the letting go of the underlying psychological dynamic. This allowed for a greater sense of liberation and wellness.