are sages against violence?

[electroBeam]

Are sages against violence? Do they have moral tension with the act of violence? Do they fundamentally disagree with violence?

Why has there not been a sage in the past that committed violence? God has no problem with violence, and things worse than violence, that's for sure. God IS violence, Hitler, torture, rape, etc. 

Violence isn't necessarily a 'bad' thing. The French revolution killed more than 40 000 people, and it was one of the greatest things that happened to man kind. In fact its almost always necessary to encounter aggression, if not violence, to properly revolutionise the world. Violent or aggressive revolutions far outweigh non aggressive ones. That doesn't necessarily mean the one doing the revolution needs to be aggressive, in the case of Jesus, Gandhi, but sometimes it does. But almost always one side is going to resort to aggression or violence. 

[Milos Uzelac]

I can name an example of Korean Zen Buddhist monks and thier temple headmasters who encouraged them to fight the Japanese Imperial Army in WW2 in order to stop their desecration Buddhist temples and monasteries and the abduction and procuring of Korean women in to sex slavery and later of their encouragement of resistance against North Korean communist policies to wipe out Buddhist communities in north of the country. These temple and monastery headmasters had kept their Ganwanseon* lineage to enlightenment for centuries and some of them could be considered sages by atleast my subjective non empirical non enlightened criteria and point of view from their writing and they called upon self preservation of Koreans and resistance during the countries occupation from 1905 onwards. Guru Nanak founder and first sage of Sikhism encouraged military action and resistance against the Muslim soldiers who attack and destroy Hindu temples and oppress Hindu believers during the rule of the Islamic Mughal dynasty in India in order to preserve Hinduism spiritual heritage in India against iconoclastic fundamentalist Islam. Sikhism was founded as an ethnic spiritual armed resistance for Hindu's as a reaction to the tyranny of fundamentalist Muslim rule. And I wouldn't say Guru Nanak wasn't a Sage because of that seeing again subjectively his biography, sayings and writings. Does survival self-preservation constitute violence as always an aggressive act towards someone or is this violence always a relative response to another kind of violence for example how Islam was founded against repressive, racist (against Hamites - Sudanese and Ethiopian who were mostly slaves to Arabian Semites before Muhammad ) and polytheist practices and tribal lineage rule and trade monopoly in Arabia it is a question of how an mystical movement with a sage comes and lasts about does it necessarially act out in some form of violence in some period of its existence because of the mere existence of violence in the world and through out all of human history for now? A relevant question of the relationship of imagined to be separate beings yet still physical and biologicaly separate in nature. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Milos Uzelac

[Zigzag Idiot]

Great perspectives!

What is the frame of reference? I ask rhetorically.

In Fourth Way literature, it is said a fully Conscious or awakened person is actually incapable of violence.

When the emotional center is purified.

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

Maurice Nicoll 

A DREAM OF NICOLL’S

“I see someone teaching or drilling some recruits. That is all. At first sight there seems nothing marvelous. He smiles. He indicates some- how that he does not necessarily expect to get any results from what he is doing. He does not seem to mind. He does not show any signs of impatience when they are rude to him. The lesson is nearly over, but this will not make any difference to him. It is as if he said, ‘Well, this has to be done. One cannot expect much. One must give them help, though they don’t want it.’ It is his invulnerability that strikes me.
He is not hurt or angered by their sneers or lack of discipline. He has some curious power but hardly uses it...He seemed purified from all violence. That was the secret. That was the source of the curious power I detected in him. A man without violence...From this glance I know better what going in a new direction is and what a new will purified from violence means. I know also that the possibilities of following this new will and new direction lie in every moment of one’s life.”

V. 4, p. 1500 

from The Psychological Commentaries 

[electroBeam]

cool, thanks for the ideas. 

[Angelite]

1 hour ago, electroBeam said:

Are sages against violence? Do they have moral tension with the act of violence? Do they fundamentally disagree with violence?

Why has there not been a sage in the past that committed violence? God has no problem with violence, and things worse than violence, that's for sure. God IS violence, Hitler, torture, rape, etc. 

Violence isn't necessarily a 'bad' thing. The French revolution killed more than 40 000 people, and it was one of the greatest things that happened to man kind. In fact its almost always necessary to encounter aggression, if not violence, to properly revolutionise the world. Violent or aggressive revolutions far outweigh non aggressive ones. That doesn't necessarily mean the one doing the revolution needs to be aggressive, in the case of Jesus, Gandhi, but sometimes it does. But almost always one side is going to resort to aggression or violence. 

Have you ever been in a war? 

It's a lose-lose situation. Especially if you wanna start a new one when we have reached to a point of non-violence. To regress back is foolish. You'll only regret it once it happens. 

 

Only when peace is no longer an option. Defending yourself from the intruders. 

The line between ego and survival is who the intruders is. 

This is my value even at a one person level. If someone trespasses this one particular value, then God will take care of you. 

Karma is unavoidable. 

God IS against violence. God is not against integrity though. The sages too. 

 

[electroBeam]

24 minutes ago, Angelite said:

God IS against violence. God is not against integrity though. The sages too. 

Definitely incorrect. 

24 minutes ago, Angelite said:

It's a lose-lose situation. Especially if you wanna start a new one when we have reached to a point of non-violence. To regress back is foolish. You'll only regret it once it happens. 

Possibly, but ive been in many wars with my own ego, and the war is never a loose loose situation. Its always a necessary step to growth.

Civil wars are the equivalent of growing pains. They are necessary to push the general public out of their comfort zone through force, otherwise it will never happen.

World War 2 WAS the cause of the 1960 hippie revolution - without world war 2, the hippie revolution wouldn't have happened. 

[Nickyy]

3 hours ago, electroBeam said:

The French revolution killed more than 40 000 people, and it was one of the greatest things that happened to man kind. 

In your opinion.

 

[Angelite]

4 hours ago, electroBeam said:

Definitely incorrect. 

Correct by the God that I worship 's standard. 

Killing one person without a justified reason is equal to killing the whole of mankind. 

?This is by God's standard. 

(the only justified reason: if they kill one of you. A life for a life) 

Quote

Possibly, but ive been in many wars with my own ego, and the war is never a loose loose situation. Its always a necessary step to growth.

Don't make a joke out of actual war.

"regress" back into war when we've already paid that "growth" once. And now you wanna create another war? Only those who've never been in war will wan't it to happen. 

Quote

Civil wars are the equivalent of growing pains. They are necessary to push the general public out of their comfort zone through force, otherwise it will never happen.

For whom?

Using the general public for your own ego? Goodluck receiving your karma. 

Quote

World War 2 WAS the cause of the 1960 hippie revolution - without world war 2, the hippie revolution wouldn't have happened. 

That's part of karma. 

Actually I didn't know what a hippie revolution was. 

This? 

@electroBeam you are a part of your previous generation's karma. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Angelite

[Nak Khid]

6 hours ago, electroBeam said:

 God IS violence, Hitler, torture, rape, etc. 

 

This is a God you believe in?

[electroBeam]

1 hour ago, Angelite said:

Only those who've never been in war will wan't it to happen. 

 

Right so if wars didn't happen, everyone would want a war. Sounds like it would be paradise if wars didn't happen.

40 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

This is a God you believe in?

There is nothing outside of God

Edited November 3, 2019 by electroBeam

[Angelite]

1 hour ago, electroBeam said:

Right so if wars didn't happen, everyone would want a war. Sounds like it would be paradise if wars didn't happen.

 

It would be paradise till it happen.

Then it would be hell. There's no turning back once you're in. 

Wanting a war is not equal to actually be in a war. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Angelite

[Nak Khid]

23 hours ago, electroBeam said:

Are sages against violence? Do they have moral tension with the act of violence? Do they fundamentally disagree with violence?

Why has there not been a sage in the past that committed violence? God has no problem with violence, and things worse than violence, that's for sure. God IS violence, Hitler, torture, rape, etc. 

16 hours ago, Nak Khid said:

This is a God you believe in?

16 hours ago, electroBeam said:

 

There is nothing outside of God

 So if "God" is an alternate word for "everything", than "everything" does not take a position on violence.

 

23 hours ago, electroBeam said:

Why has there not been a sage in the past that committed violence? God has no problem with violence, and things worse than violence, that's for sure. God IS violence, Hitler, torture, rape, etc.

 

 

A "sage" means "a very wise person"  so the word "sage" is open to interpretation as to who is a sage. Some Stoics believed no person has attained the level of being a sage.   You mentioned Jesus but he isn't commonly referred to as a sage. A sage usually implies an older more experienced person but I think it's fair to call him a prophet and sage.  Mainly he talks about following him and God but also has some non-religious sayings
However there is also  an 18 year unrecorded period within Jesus' life (between 12 and 29) .  Ghandi also, is not commonly referred to as a sage but instead an activist., leader  of an independence movement. He does have some sage-like quotes.
List a few other sages ( other than Leo Gura)

 

Sage
"man of profound wisdom," mid-14c., from sage (adj.). Originally applied to the Seven Sages -- Thales, Solon, Periander, Cleobulus, Chilon, Bias, and Pittacus.

 

The idea that there had once been seven extraordinary wise people was probably introduced in the west from Babylon, where the seven apkallū were believed to have lived before the Great Flood. The first European to refer to a similar, yet less mythological tradition is the Athenian philosopher Plato (427-347), who mentions seven names of wise people that "were lovers and emulators and disciples of the culture of the Spartans":

Such were

Thales of Miletus,
Pittacus of Mitylene,
Bias of Priene, 
 Solon,
Cleobulus the Lindian,
Myson the Chenian;
the Spartan Chilon

These people had lived in the seventh and sixth centuries and were later believed to have founded Greek philosophy. However, not everyone agreed about the names. The historian Ephorus replaced Myson with Anacharsis, a legendary Scythian sage mentioned in the Histories of Herodotus of Halicarnassus (4.76-78). A generation after Plato, Demetrius of Phalerum, a pupil of Aristotle of Stagira, was not too happy with Myson either, so he replaced him with Periander, the tyrant of Corinth.

And this was only the beginning. Four names have become canonical (Thales, Pittacus, Bias, Solon), but there were many candidates for the remaining three positions.

Pittacus (. 640 – 568 BC) was an ancient Mytilenaen military general and one of the Seven Sages of Greece.
The Suda (10th-century Byzantine encyclopedia) claims that Pittacus wrote a prose work about laws and also an elegiac poem of 600 lines. No trace of these works has survived
________________________

The 3 Great Sage Kings Held in High Regard in China

Emperor Yao is believed to have lived between 2356 B.C. and 2255 B.C.

Emperor Shun

According to oral tradition, Emperor Shun lived between 2294 B.C. and 2184 B.C.

Emperor Yu

Also known as “Yu The Great,” he lived between 2123 B.C. and 2025 B.C.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Nak Khid

[allislove]

Imagine John has a dream with himself and others. Everything in the dream is John (including John character). A John character can make a violence to other dream characters. . . but then he realises that he (John character) is not only the dream character but also a John (who is sleeping), so every other dream character (to whom he did a violence) is also John. With this realisation John, probably, is not going to do any harm to others beings, just live his dreamed life until the real John wakes up.

[Nahm]

“Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth;I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

Jesus

[Nak Khid]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

“Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth;I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

Jesus

In context:

Matthew 10:30-40 King James Version (KJV)

30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother,
and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is not a call to war.  It's Jesus saying if you have to love and follow him more than your own family

 

 

 

[Angelite]

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

“Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth;I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

Jesus

I know why you did this Nahm. 

You have to do the opposite of Truth in order to gain power. Which is temporary and not everlasting anyway. So it's silly. 

But you don't believe in the hereafter. So you're not conscious of it. 

...

Christianity. 

Killing your own prophet. 

Selling Truth for a cheap price. 

...

But the real christians, the genuine christians, will be guided to Truth. Through the Holy Spirit. It is those who use "Christianity" for utilitarian purposes (only) who will deceive no one but themselves. 

It's...actually pointless. Not worth it. 

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Angelite

[Angelite]

On 11/4/2019 at 8:43 AM, Nak Khid said:

 

A "sage" means "a very wise person"  so the word "sage" is open to interpretation as to who is a sage. Some Stoics believed no person has attained the level of being a sage.   You mentioned Jesus but he isn't commonly referred to as a sage. A sage usually implies an older more experienced person but I think it's fair to call him a prophet and sage.  Mainly he talks about following him and God but also has some non-religious sayings
However there is also  an 18 year unrecorded period within Jesus' life (between 12 and 29) .  Ghandi also, is not commonly referred to as a sage but instead an activist., leader  of an independence movement. He does have some sage-like quotes.
List a few other sages ( other than Leo Gura)

 

Sage
"man of profound wisdom," mid-14c., from sage (adj.). Originally applied to the Seven Sages -- Thales, Solon, Periander, Cleobulus, Chilon, Bias, and Pittacus.

 

The idea that there had once been seven extraordinary wise people was probably introduced in the west from Babylon, where the seven apkallū were believed to have lived before the Great Flood. The first European to refer to a similar, yet less mythological tradition is the Athenian philosopher Plato (427-347), who mentions seven names of wise people that "were lovers and emulators and disciples of the culture of the Spartans":

Such were

Thales of Miletus,
Pittacus of Mitylene,
Bias of Priene, 
 Solon,
Cleobulus the Lindian,
Myson the Chenian;
the Spartan Chilon

These people had lived in the seventh and sixth centuries and were later believed to have founded Greek philosophy. However, not everyone agreed about the names. The historian Ephorus replaced Myson with Anacharsis, a legendary Scythian sage mentioned in the Histories of Herodotus of Halicarnassus (4.76-78). A generation after Plato, Demetrius of Phalerum, a pupil of Aristotle of Stagira, was not too happy with Myson either, so he replaced him with Periander, the tyrant of Corinth.

And this was only the beginning. Four names have become canonical (Thales, Pittacus, Bias, Solon), but there were many candidates for the remaining three positions.

Pittacus (. 640 – 568 BC) was an ancient Mytilenaen military general and one of the Seven Sages of Greece.
The Suda (10th-century Byzantine encyclopedia) claims that Pittacus wrote a prose work about laws and also an elegiac poem of 600 lines. No trace of these works has survived
________________________

The 3 Great Sage Kings Held in High Regard in China

Emperor Yao is believed to have lived between 2356 B.C. and 2255 B.C.

Emperor Shun

According to oral tradition, Emperor Shun lived between 2294 B.C. and 2184 B.C.

Emperor Yu

Also known as “Yu The Great,” he lived between 2123 B.C. and 2025 B.C.

@Nak Khid I like your description. To me, a sage is a person who is no longer confined by the physical/material world. 

So they knows a lot. 

 

[Aeris]

On 04/11/2019 at 2:07 AM, Nahm said:

“Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth;I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

Jesus

<3 

[Angelite]

On 11/4/2019 at 9:07 AM, Nahm said:

“Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth;I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

Jesus

@Nahm sorry Nahm. It just wasn't  how Jesus was portrayed in the Quran. 

Jesus the son of Mary in the Quran, is all about miracle. Born without a father, can speak during infancy into adulthood. Can do various miracles, 

So my first impression is that it doesn't make sense. I thought u made it up. 

So the conclusion is : that verse is wrong. 

@Nak Khid The definition of a wise man in Islam is  L u q m ā n