Leo-Your view on veganism?

[Scholar]

25 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

Absolutely! I am pro as much plants in diet as possible. Just by increasing an intake of fibre to 50 grams and drinking 2.5 liters of water a lot of people's problems will go away in a week.

I just have the issue of absolutizing for the sake of being special, unique or to have a label. Lots of vegans are deeply suffering because they are traumatised what will happen if they ever touch an animal product. Your surrounding will crucify you if you have demonisted them for eating meat but what if the vegan ends up being the one falling apart? It takes an enormous amount of emotional pain and courage to drop that ideology. Not to mention it prevents one from rising on the spiral beyond green as long as the ideology is deeply rooted in unconsciousness. If one cannot appreciate the variety of perspectives, it will always create suffering and neediness to defend. 

We have just become so lost listening to experts. doctors and healers that we don't have a sense of our own intuition anymore. 

And the suffering of the animals is completely irrelevant? We have mussels, how can you possibly argue for torturing and killing animals for products that are completely unnecessary for survival?

Sure you might feel a little less optimal if you eat mussels, but they will give you everything you need. Veganism is an ethical principle not a diet, it means to reduce exploitation where it is not necessary. Criticizing veganism from below is easy, a critique from above will not result in the same kind of justification of exploitation as orange gives, like appeals to futility coming from Leo.

 

The assumption is that optimal human health is more important than everything else in this world, including the future of our ecology, the suffering of the majority of beings living on this planet and so forth. That is an insane, human-centric way of looking at the world.

 

The fact that you think veganism is about being special, unique of having a label means you have not yet reached green whatsoever. Veganism is about an increase in compassion for groups that we currently view as objects, it is about equality fundamentally. The same reasons that give us the right to live and be free of exploitation are the same the animals deserve them.

If you stopped having black slaves and joined the abolitionist groups what do you think would have happened if you at some point decided you want to go back to having slaves because of all the back pain that you have now that you have to work in the fields yourself? It is human nature to react agains that kind of "betrayal" far more excessively than against people who have not yet become conscious of the suffering they are causing to their black slaves.

 

And recognize that Leo's way of looking at this would have easily allowed him to keep his black slaves, because "You cannot live without evil", and because "It would not help him optimally self-actualize because of the back pains he would have from working on the field".

Edited November 5, 2019 by Scholar

[Michael569]

@Scholar if your idea of health is eating the ocean garbage disposals called "mussels" by all means go for it. Talking about the ethics, mussels and small sea creatures that not only clean the waters but they also provide food to larger animals. Is it right to eat them? 

Don't you go demonising when you have your own devilry to purify. I am not criticising veganism from below as I have been part of it for 4 years, attended demonstrations and debated people endlessly until I realised how dogmatic and ideological I have become, full of hate and judgement. My criticism was towards the blindness and horizontal thinking of many people who are part of this movement. It has become us and them rather than us humans. Us good vegans and them evil meat eaters. 

Believe it or not but not everyone can stop eating animals. Saying that is an ignorance and lack of knowledge of human physiology, genetics and constitution. 

 

[Scholar]

55 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

@Scholar if your idea of health is eating the ocean garbage disposals called "mussels" by all means go for it. Talking about the ethics, mussels and small sea creatures that not only clean the waters but they also provide food to larger animals. Is it right to eat them? 

Don't you go demonising when you have your own devilry to purify. I am not criticising veganism from below as I have been part of it for 4 years, attended demonstrations and debated people endlessly until I realised how dogmatic and ideological I have become, full of hate and judgement. My criticism was towards the blindness and horizontal thinking of many people who are part of this movement. It has become us and them rather than us humans. Us good vegans and them evil meat eaters. 

Believe it or not but not everyone can stop eating animals. Saying that is an ignorance and lack of knowledge of human physiology, genetics and constitution. 

 

The problem is that the blindness and horizontal thinking in any other group but vegans is equally as high or even higher. Just talk to your average person about meat eating and see how they respond.

Creating identity, even if at some point these identities might be limiting, is a crucial part of social process. It is better to have a dysfunctional vegan movement than to have no vegan movement at all. Fundamentally it is about creating awareness of the suffering and destruction the animal industry is causing world-wide and locally.

Sure, vegans have an us-vs-them mentality, but so do non-vegans. They hate vegans, as soon as you even dare to mention it you are an outcast. And this is relevant, because we are talking about a difference in morality that is quite substantial. Most people still think it is fine to kill animals simply for the pleasure they receive from eating animal-products. The conversation about whether it is healthy or not is not even in the foreground and is only used to dismiss veganism as a whole in current mainstream media.

 

Sure there are dogmatic people, crazy raw-food flat-earthers who ruin their health and then go on about how ideological veganism is. There are also people who are very passionate about animal rights and are willing to make health-sacrifices for it and demand for other people to do the same. There are also vegans who only do it for health reasons.

There is a difference between debating these issues and actually seeing animals being killed and slaughtered for the products that you deem necessary. The facts are most people can get by without eating most animal products, those who do need them probably can live by eating mussels or insects. Sure they will not feel optimal, but the right to feel optimal is in my opinion does not overstate the right for another beings freedom of deliberate slaughter.

 

Additionally, if anyone here does indeed believe animal products are necessary for health, then it would be our utmost moral imperative to push society towards developing technology like lab-grown meat so that we can abolish the kind of exploitation that is currently necessary. Do I see any ex-vegans argue for that? Of course not, because they do not really care.

 

We have an impact on this world and on other individuals, while it is obvious that we cannot demand people to stop consuming these products if they are necessary for their survival, in a society in which it is still fully acceptable, I do think we can have more deeper conversations than "Vegans are ideological, I was part of it and I know it!".

 

That to me has nothing to do with integral thinking. It is a regression into individualistic paradigms that put the humans at the center of the universe. If we do need certain products to survive, we better reduce the impact we have on others as much as possible and also work on solutions which will do so in the future. Right now the awareness around animal rights and ecology is so low that the dogmatism in veganism and similar movements must be accepted. You can try to correct it, but to dismiss the movement as a whole means to regress and not to progress.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Scholar

[DrewNows]

I haven’t had the opportunity to read all the discussion but I really appreciate what @Michael569 has pointed out before and personally I always refused to follow a specific diet until recently when I found myself lost in the raw food detoxification hype. I’d noticed an opportunity to help others and work in the direction of transitioning spiritually toward breatharianism, but recently there’s been much conflict and pain arising, I’d lost myself in this idealogy instead of trusting intuition. I leave for Costa Rica in a little over a week and it’s going to be a complete shift in atmosphere which will make my spiritual shift much easier and full of support. Today I found this video, a complete godsend, hope some of you enjoy all the nuggets of wisdom in it ?

 

[Waves]

@Michael569 What shift in perspective allowed you to go back to still eat a tiny bit of animal products without feeling "guilty"?

I have been full plant-based (whole foods as much as I can) for 4 months now, after a slow transition of 2 years, but I even though I don't have cravings I sometimes feel that I'm too strict with it, and we know that strictness and nutrition don't go well together.

I just wonder if going back to eat some cheese in special occasions (we love to eat fondue and raclette here in Switzerland in the winter) will lead to a negative cascade of going back to old habits. I can see I fear going back to eating animal products because it would take away my clear label of "healthy, sustainable, independent from animals" nutrition and somehow change the identity I built around being vegan, even though I'm very careful about being ideological about it and about how I communicate my choice. 

Do you have any insight that helped you?

[remember]

6 hours ago, DrewNows said:

I haven’t had the opportunity to read all the discussion but I really appreciate what @Michael569 has pointed out before and personally I always refused to follow a specific diet until recently when I found myself lost in the raw food detoxification hype. I’d noticed an opportunity to help others and work in the direction of transitioning spiritually toward breatharianism, but recently there’s been much conflict and pain arising, I’d lost myself in this idealogy instead of trusting intuition. I leave for Costa Rica in a little over a week and it’s going to be a complete shift in atmosphere which will make my spiritual shift much easier and full of support. Today I found this video, a complete godsend, hope some of you enjoy all the nuggets of wisdom in it ?

 

bretharianism is only in so far possible as you only do that for a limited amount of time and not overexagerate it. there is a case of a guy in germany who hungered himself to death. it`s a myth, or it`s the decision to die willingly not living on the cost of the earth, therefore it`s like a hunger strike until physical death.

Edited November 6, 2019 by remember

[sgn]

On 11/2/2019 at 8:18 AM, Leo Gura said:

Personally it doesn't work for me because it doesn't give be enough energy.

For other people it works.

Keep in mind that people have different body types and different genetics which correspond to your ancestor's diet.

But beans, lentils etc have a lot of energy, but I see you don't like to eat that much carbohydraters so fair enough.

Yes, it's interesting your last point. I've been eating a vegan diet for 3 years now and noticed when I switched meat, dairy and eggs to beans, lentils, peas etc instead that my stomach don't like it. I have Ibs and I get gassy as hell and I'm so tired of it, don't see that working long term.

My reason for turning to veganism was never about the killing of the animals it's when I realized there's so much suffering involved in every industry.
I'm researching to see if I can find a farm that actually gives the animals a good life (if that's even possible) and where they slaughter the animals on their own without sending them to a slaughterhouse where they for example lure them into gas chambers and all that nasty shit.
If I can't find any I don't know what to do. If I do find it then I might start to eat some again. But not sure what that wil be.

What animal products do you eat?

[DrewNows]

16 minutes ago, remember said:

bretharianism is only in so far possible as you only do that for a limited amount of time and not overexagerate it. there is a case of a guy in germany who hungered himself to death. it`s a myth, or it`s the decision to die willingly not living on the cost of the earth, therefore it`s like a hunger strike until physical death.

Think what you please fam, I listen to my body first and foremost. You are right in that we mustn’t try to define/label breatharianism. But I can assure you it isnt what you think it is.
There are different levels and this video explains it in detail 

Ray maor holds workshops all around the world assisting groups in exploring the type of lifestyle. It’s a beautiful thing and I recommend his book “a year without food” 

 

[SerpaeTetra]

Just playing devils advocate here, but if setting up deadly dog fights in your backyard somehow gives you more energy because thats what makes you tick, and in turn gives you a few more years on your life...is it any different?

Edited November 6, 2019 by SerpaeTetra

[DrewNows]

I think what we all really want is empowerment. Empowerment without having to give ourselves and our trust away to the world, to other people’s beliefs and ideologies, just to feel safe. We know what’s best for us; it’s not giving into fear, resistant thinking, and attachments no longer serving us. It is our God given right to embrace authenticity and continue purposeful expansion in this life 

is there any value in fighting or judging others? Have we not yet realized all we actually see IS versions of ourself in the mirror? Nature is yet another version of us and yet we act as though it’s separate. All is connected, what’s going to make this clear? 

[Nak Khid]

These days I hear people talk about veganism and carnivore diets as if  vegetarianism which can include animal products

Ovo-lacto vegetarianism allows eggs, dairy
Ovo vegetarianism allows eggs
Lacto vegetarianism allows dairy

Also Pescatarianism allowing fish only in addition to one of the forms of vegetarianism above

Rising global meat consumption is beginning to devastate environment.
Some of the feeling that one can't maintain bodily energy level on a vegetarian  is often psychological or  because
the diet is not balanced correctly. By eating less animal meat, your body doesn't have to use as much energy to digest your food.
Beans, nuts and seeds are important and grain. The key is to reduce the grain portion size  but it is needed to counteract the
gas production of the beans.  So the grain might be slightly higher than the beans and the beans and rice in equal portion to vegetables instead of covering the whole plate . Fruits might take up more of the breakfast meal.
Add a B complex supplement. The diet needs to be adjusted to how  much physical activity a person is doing. more meals for more active people

[DrewNows]

The wisdom in this is juicy 

“eating for spiritual health and social harmony”....say what....

Edited November 7, 2019 by DrewNows

[SerpaeTetra]

What is the difference between slavery and eating meat?  Both are used to benefit the self...there are alternatives to both.  I agree that not eating meat could possibly reduce energy and knock a couple years off ones life.  This is much like having slaves that add wealth and in turn health/lifespan to ones life.  I've probably eaten more meat than most in the thread, so definitely not judging, just asking...

[Nickyy]

On 05/11/2019 at 10:49 AM, Scholar said:

And the suffering of the animals is completely irrelevant? We have mussels, how can you possibly argue for torturing and killing animals for products that are completely unnecessary for survival?

Sure you might feel a little less optimal if you eat mussels, but they will give you everything you need. Veganism is an ethical principle not a diet, it means to reduce exploitation where it is not necessary. Criticizing veganism from below is easy, a critique from above will not result in the same kind of justification of exploitation as orange gives, like appeals to futility coming from Leo.

 

The assumption is that optimal human health is more important than everything else in this world, including the future of our ecology, the suffering of the majority of beings living on this planet and so forth. That is an insane, human-centric way of looking at the world.

 

The fact that you think veganism is about being special, unique of having a label means you have not yet reached green whatsoever. Veganism is about an increase in compassion for groups that we currently view as objects, it is about equality fundamentally. The same reasons that give us the right to live and be free of exploitation are the same the animals deserve them.

If you stopped having black slaves and joined the abolitionist groups what do you think would have happened if you at some point decided you want to go back to having slaves because of all the back pain that you have now that you have to work in the fields yourself? It is human nature to react agains that kind of "betrayal" far more excessively than against people who have not yet become conscious of the suffering they are causing to their black slaves.

 

And recognize that Leo's way of looking at this would have easily allowed him to keep his black slaves, because "You cannot live without evil", and because "It would not help him optimally self-actualize because of the back pains he would have from working on the field".

Slavery was never really abolished. It's just been reformed into a more socially acceptable format. These days any slave can become a master. But in order to do that you need to be comfortable with having slaves work for you. ?

[Arcangelo]

On 11/5/2019 at 11:14 PM, SerpaeTetra said:

Just playing devils advocate here, but if setting up deadly dog fights in your backyard somehow gives you more energy because thats what makes you tick, and in turn gives you a few more years on your life...is it any different?

It is because dog fights are illegal. Other than that it is the same.

I like the breatharian idea, but Ray almost died during that 8 day experiment. He is NOT a breatharian. He just does fasting like everybody else.

[DrewNows]

1 hour ago, Arcangelo said:

It is because dog fights are illegal. Other than that it is the same.

I like the breatharian idea, but Ray almost died during that 8 day experiment. He is NOT a breatharian. He just does fasting like everybody else.

He almost died in the 8 day experiment??? No he didn’t!!! Please share where you got this information. 

[Arcangelo]

At some point the guy was fainting, delirious and couldn't stand up.  I saw the full documentary.

[DrewNows]

1 hour ago, Arcangelo said:

At some point the guy was fainting, delirious and couldn't stand up.  I saw the full documentary.

This show? I saw no such thing but okay 

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by DrewNows

[Germo]

What has being I see these kind of fiction videos youtube all the time.. Being vegan makes you spirutal and all that ...  So much identification takes to the extremes... 

Actually when i seen vegans, they look kind of exhausted and tired, note those who have followed 5+ years. And its actually quiet high carb, sugary way of eating, i dont know if thats healthy + all the stricting and its like some kind of religion..

But what i have read and heard on internet, carnivore followers claim to have good health and mental clarity:) Seems intresting