Fascism and its relation to Spiral Dynamics

[nice shot]

Forewarning, I am not trying to promote fascist ideology.

Recently I have found myself getting more and more interested in politics and government and really society as whole, and today, I have been idly thinking about this:

Quote

Can fascism appear in the higher levels on the Spiral Dynamics model?

 

I am only lightly informed about each of the stages of Spiral Dynamics, but I feel I have a good grasp of how each stage relates to the others. Initially, I thought that, no, fascism is something that exists because we are living in times where much of the world is swamped in the lower stages and so fascism just happens essentially by nature. I then started to think about what a fascist might look like at higher stages in the model.

What would fascism look like in a stage green society?

Could a stage green society even be manipulated into fascist ways? And additionally with this, would a stage green society manipulated in such a fashion still be fascist, or would it be something entirely different?

Is there an example of this currently?

I've posed these questions for stage green, but they can be applied to each of the stages above as well for the sake of discussion.

What do you think?

 

 

[Apparition of Jack]

It'd be almost impossible to have a stage green fascist society. Fascism by definition involves hyper-nationalism, militarism and ethnic tribalism, all things anathema to the green worldview. 

Fascism is unhealthy red and blue. There's really no reason to try and "emulate" it on higher levels. 

[Leo Gura]

Fascism is stage Red/Blue.

There is no Green fascism.

[remember]

@Anton Rogachevski chauvinism and mysogynism is unhealthy red and blue - green usually gets triggered by red and blue. even the winking doesn`t make it green. it`s exactly the kind of jokes you could share with fascists, you would probably agree on the same level.

Edited October 31, 2019 by remember

[remember]

@Anton Rogachevski 

1. mine was also a joke - you can read it in two ways and understand it differently.

2. chauvinism and mysogynism usually comes as a wooden horse, you are not even aware to what extend you might already be a gender fascist.

3. is already discriminating, using the words "beautiful" and "ruining the chance" to evaluate women in better or worse feminists, as militarized feminists in some cases are the only helping hand, because no one else cares. with this sentence you back up why they are still so important.

sometimes a joke contains a kernel of truth.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by remember

[remember]

42 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

4. I've said this many times, and I will repeat, I think that this battle we have between genders is the most ridiculous of them, we are literally two parts of the same species, we can't even exist without each other. It's radicalism which is the problem, not the genders.

yeah then drop it. how radical is mysogynism, chauvinism and fascism? as long as you don`t see that mysogynism chauvinism and racism are on the same level, you hold up the idea of being a better person. even if you have a feminine side it doesn`t make you a woman, it`s like saying you are pretty connected to your afro american side, but it doesn`t make you face the same discrimination (i count lgbtq to the ones who know) . therefore the joke was just low. and you try to make me the one who is attacking you by telling me i shouldn`t judge, what is even lower. so stop being a jerk and everything is fine.

Edited October 31, 2019 by remember

[Anton Rogachevski]

Sorry I was wrong for making that joke.

I've been and still am being marginalized for my nationality, and have faced abuse and racism. 

I respectfully leave this discussion, and remove my views. I respect your views, and empathize as much as I can with your cause. I guess we're just people who were hurt and are trying to heal.

I wish you well.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Anton Rogachevski

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

I've been and still am being marginalized for my nationality, and have faced abuse and racism. 

I respectfully leave this discussion, and remove my views. I wish you well.

The posts on gender marginalization/abuse was based on gender, not nationality. I respect your desire to leave the discussion and to remove views. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitri_Devi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple

Good examples of green ideals becoming fascistic.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Anton Rogachevski

[SoothedByRain]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50266955- Stage Red/Blue resisting the shift into Green

Edited November 2, 2019 by SoothedByRain

[ArchangelG]

On 2019-10-31 at 9:22 AM, Leo Gura said:

Fascism is stage Red/Blue.

There is no Green fascism.

According to Eckhart Tolle there seems to be. He is saying that a part of the feminine movement is an reaction to an excess of yang(maculine energy). And excess of yin(feminine energy) produces fascism.

54.30-60.00

Edited January 19, 2020 by ArchangelG

[Emerald]

On 10/30/2019 at 9:35 PM, nice shot said:

Forewarning, I am not trying to promote fascist ideology.

Recently I have found myself getting more and more interested in politics and government and really society as whole, and today, I have been idly thinking about this:

 

I am only lightly informed about each of the stages of Spiral Dynamics, but I feel I have a good grasp of how each stage relates to the others. Initially, I thought that, no, fascism is something that exists because we are living in times where much of the world is swamped in the lower stages and so fascism just happens essentially by nature. I then started to think about what a fascist might look like at higher stages in the model.

What would fascism look like in a stage green society?

Could a stage green society even be manipulated into fascist ways? And additionally with this, would a stage green society manipulated in such a fashion still be fascist, or would it be something entirely different?

Is there an example of this currently?

I've posed these questions for stage green, but they can be applied to each of the stages above as well for the sake of discussion.

What do you think?

Fascism specifically refers to a group of people that think they're the superior people and deserve more than other ethnic/racial groups. That's definitely Red/Blue.

[Emerald]

19 minutes ago, ArchangelG said:

According to Eckhart Tolle there seems to be. He is saying that a part of the feminine movement is an reaction to an excess of yang(maculine energy). And excess of yin(feminine energy) produces fascism.

54.30-60.00

Firm disagree with Eckhart Tolle on this one. We are still very much Yang dominated.... which is why climate change as well as many inqualities still exist. The sixties saw an uprising of Yin in its negative form in terms of hedonism, and then those same people snapped back and retreated back into Yang. Also, the Feminist movement and other movements like that are still very much Yang. They have to be to actually make room for the rise of the divine feminine. 

Otherwise, we have an excess of corrupt Yang order that leads to an excess of Yin dissolution and chaos. 

But the current chaos exists for a very good reason, and that's so that new order can emerge.

So, Eckhart is way off base in terms of his view on this particular subject. He's focused too narrowly to see the big picture of what's happening.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, ArchangelG said:

According to Eckhart Tolle there seems to be. He is saying that a part of the feminine movement is an reaction to an excess of yang(maculine energy). And excess of yin(feminine energy) produces fascism.

This is silly.

There is still a big excess of masculine energy in government and positions of power. We are nowhere near a healthy balanced point.

Again, this is a conflation of stage Green with stage Red. The worry that stage Green will become fascistic is totally overblown. The bigger worry is actual stage Red & Blue fascism -- which is still a real force around the world.

You have to be wise enough to pick the right things to worry about. Worrying about excess Green is like worrying about the women's bathroom on the Titanic while it is sinking. Your worry is misdirected.

[Forestluv]

One fear I’ve noticed with some men is that if women gain more power women will oppress men as men had been repressing women. I think there are a minority of women that would want some “payback” and try to institute policies against men. Yet I think the vast majority of women are not out to oppress men - they just want to be treated decently and fairly. 

My academic institution is trending Green and there has been blue/orange resistance. Especially with white men. As women and minorities have been gaining influence and power, I think blue/orange has been relieved that the minorities don’t want to implement anti white male policies and treat hem poorly. That isn’t what Green is about. Red/Blue/orange minorities and women might try to behave like that, but not Green. 

[Yog]

There was a post about fascism that leo put on his blog recently. Here are some of the key traits that lead to fascism.


-The sense of overwhelming  crisis beyond the reach of traditional solutions

-The primacy of the group, to witch one has duties superior to evry right, weather individual or universal and the subordination of the individual to it.

-The believe that ones group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external.

-Dread of the groups decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict and alien influences.

-The need for closer integration of a purer community, by consent if possible or by exclusionary violence if necessary.


These are things I see both on the far right and the far left. I know fascism is associated with the right wing, for obvious historical reasons. And I am fine with it. But how do you call it than when it happens on the left. I am not sure if it is a result of green regressing to blue sometimes, or just blue mimicking green, but it certainly happens.

On the other hand I understand @Leo Gura here. You got to pick your worries, stage red and blue broken BS is far more common in the greater world by many margins, so in that regard, it is there that most work lies. But still don't you thing we should observe and correct green when it gets things wrong, instead of sweeping it under the rug, after all its a fairly recent development, making it quite juvenile, compared to the quite old and because of it - reasonably readable orange/blue/red.

Do we let kids run around the house playing with lighters just because we got to deal with grandpa beating grandma.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Yog

[Apparition of Jack]

@Yog This sounds like a case of content vs structure. While it’s true that the structure of unhealthy left-wing ideologies can resemble unhealthy right-wing ideologies (collectivism, dogmatism, etc), the content sets them apart.

Whereas a left wing ideology might scapegoat “the rich” or “the billionaires”, a right wing ideology will scapegoat minorities and other vulnerable groups. This obviously leads to much more dangerous and unhealthy outcomes than misplaced anger against all rich people (although I’m not defending such a position either, just that it’s less insidious.)

 

Also, while left wing ideologies might take their opposition to certain groups too far, this opposition is built on a deeper and more nuanced understanding ou the world than right wing’s opposition to minorities. Because let’s be honest, late-stage capitalism IS a shitshow and it’s socialistic policies and thinking- though probably not outright socialist governments - that are what’s going to be needed to solve the 21st century’s problems, not reactionary fearmongering that causes more problems than it solves.

[ArchangelG]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is silly.

There is still a big excess of masculine energy in government and positions of power. We are nowhere near a healthy balanced point.

Again, this is a conflation of stage Green with stage Red. The worry that stage Green will become fascistic is totally overblown. The bigger worry is actual stage Red & Blue fascism -- which is still a real force around the world.

You have to be wise enough to pick the right things to worry about. Worrying about excess Green is like worrying about the women's bathroom on the Titanic while it is sinking. Your worry is misdirected.

My worry is specifically in my country Sweden.

Where immigration is extremely high, integration is basically nonexistent and also holding the most expensive welfare system in the world my forecast doesn't look to bright.

Too much green to fast, and no orange counter to green lack of practicality.

But on the other hand to little yellow to understand the rootcauses.

[Leo Gura]

@Yog If you make a list of fascist values and ways of thinking and compare to a list of stage Green values and ways of thinking you will see that they are not the same at all.

There is a structural difference between the two. A stage Green person has no desire to be a fascist. They have outgrown that. They have a desire to support others who are different than them.

Sure, sometimes a Green person might get upset or act foolish, but they will not create a fascist government.

TYT is never going to lead to fascism, but Fox News could. Of course TYT can still be biased and lead to other lesser problems. CNN would also never lead to fascism because they are above that.

[Bno]

On 1/20/2020 at 2:09 PM, Leo Gura said:

 CNN would also never lead to fascism because they are above that.

CNN beats the drums for war and they instigate fighting between different races of working class people all for ratings. Making it seem like all Trump supporters are racist, that countries with better democratic processes and education systems than our own are savages, attacking and resisting progressives like Bernie and Tulsi who want to solve the problems of all working class people in the world and deliberately spreading misinformation about them. They distract from the real issues oppressing people. This led to laws that oppress poor minorities like NAFTA, the 94 Crime Bill, the deregulations of corporate conglomerates, and right-wing regime change coups and wars. This also led to President Donald Trump. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Bno