How do I get my mum to open up to psychedelics?

[Nickyy]

@Flowerfaeiry The study you posted, from 2000 btw, doesn't really tell us much except that they found associations in animal studies and this raised a theoretical concern about the observational studies done on humans. 

A bit of a weak paper, and a bit irrelevant now in 2019, almost 20 years after your paper was published.

 

Got anything more substantial and upto date?

[Nickyy]

@Flowerfaeiry Please note I'm not advocating drug abuse. I'm using my story as a way of discussing MDMA and it's long term effects.

I just got warned by a mod, therefore I'm responsible for making myself clear here.

[Flowerfaeiry]

36 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

Ok, well if you're interested in discussing direct experience, then why are you dismissing my and others direct experience?

Because it doesn't conform to your bias?

I questioned your story's validity, and went on to say that everyone is different. I'm not dismissing, solely questioning. Why are you dismissing my direct experience? You are biased too, can't get around that.

And just because you and people you know didn't experience brain damage doesn't mean it doesn't happen.. 

I was part of the rave scene for a little too, not the early, hardcore rave scene, but I've raved a good amount in my life. My experience with MDMA sounds different from yours in the sense that I went on binges, doing it almost every day for months at a time. It 100% fucked with my memory and I wasn't doing anything else crazy, just MDMA, pure shit. I'm also a woman, of small stature and have a low tolerance for drugs in general, all of which play a role. 

[Flowerfaeiry]

7 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

@Flowerfaeiry Please note I'm not advocating drug abuse. I'm using my story as a way of discussing MDMA and it's long term effects.

I just got warned by a mod, therefore I'm responsible for making myself clear here.

of course haha. how about this study? It's interesting looking into this. I'm sure I could dig up a lot more if i spent the time. I think it's also valid to note that not a whole lot has been done in the way of studying the effects of heavy usage on humans. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525102/  

Personally, I experienced significant memory loss and trouble retaining information after my abuse, I also experienced paranoia which I noticed was directly caused by the MDMA. There are others like me, too. 

[Nickyy]

14 minutes ago, Flowerfaeiry said:

I questioned your story's validity, and went on to say that everyone is different. I'm not dismissing, solely questioning. Why are you dismissing my direct experience? You are biased too, can't get around that.

Of course I'm biased. We all are. 

Yes everyone is different, but the evidence suggests that there is no causal relationship between MDMA and any symptom. It might be useful to understand what the Bradford hill criteria is, which will put your belief into perspective. It's not the drug that is the problem, it's more likely the person  taking it. To say that the drug causes memory problems is just not true. 

There are a lot of people who want to shut down the use of MDMA on a grand scale. Rather than policing it (which there is no budget for) politicians can create propaganda with these studies. 

You mentioned that if you keep digging you can find many more studies. Sure you can. But you have just told me that you did a quick Google search to support your confirmation bias , which says that you don't really have any education on the subject, certainly not enough to debunk the study I showed you that shows there is no evidence to support condemning the drug. To say that MDMA directly caused your paranoid episode also tells us a lot about your degree of critical thinking thinking skills.  

In my mind I really don't see any correlation between MDMA use and memory loss. And because I've got a 2019 paper that also says there is no evidence to support any claim that the drug is harmful, I'm happy with my perspective at the moment 

I haven't found any compelling proof that MDMA is harmful, which makes me concerned about the level of "certainty" of some of the claims people are making on this thread about how dangerous the drug is.

 

Hmm, not really buying that 

 

 

[Nickyy]

@Flowerfaeiry That last study you liked, did you even read it?

MDMA is almost never taken without other drugs, most notably cannabis. Studies of cannabis without MDMA have provided clear evidence of acute and shortterm effects on attention and memory with possibly the only long-term effects being on frontal attentional networks. In contrast, there is evidence that MDMA does chronically impair complex memory tasks (hippocampus) and, in heavier users, higher executive information processing (frontal cortex) as well. Much of the evidence is compromised by the fact that short-term residual effects of cannabis and sometimes even acute effects cannot be ruled out. Furthermore, synergistic effects of cannabis and MDMA may explain effects on cognition. Circumstantial evidence correlating total lifetime dose of MDMA with cognitive measures does imply that MDMA is more likely to be the culprit than interaction with cannabis, but in the absence of evidence from pure groups this cannot be known for certain.

The cognitive impairment associated with MDMA and cannabis is not large relative to normal cognitive variability among individuals. Nevertheless, it may be sufficient to affect scholastic performance or those embarking on intellectually challenging careers and may become more manifest as neuronal reserve diminishes with age. Conversely, impairments may resolve with prolonged abstinence. If deficits in MDMA users are indeed a clinical manifestation of serotonergic dysfunction, as some biological studies would suggest, this is cause for concern that users may have increased risk of other psychiatric conditions with strong serotonergic aspects, including depression, schizophrenia, anxiety, impulsivity, aggression, and obsessivecompulsive disorder

They are saying that they don't know, they can't know, the confounding variables are too many to make any serious claim.

It's just all theories and loose correlations. 

The study you provide only shows how difficult it was at the time of publishing (2003) to pin any association on the drug. 

I've underlined the important parts of the text.

[Flowerfaeiry]

@Nickyy  yea that’s the thing with studies, they have to be technical. I read part of it and noted the part about cannabis which I find relatable in my situation because, I actually was using cannabis heavily during my binges. I think this study is really important though, while we can’t rule out the use of cannabis as being the cause of the memory loss, it’s hard to believe that my memory loss and paranoia is related to solely cannabis, and it seems more likely to be a combination of the two. 

I did find a bunch of studies that say they don’t know the long term affects of heavy usage, and also that MDMA is safe. But I’m not buying it, I’ve seen it mess with people and it messed with me. I think we can’t just look to studies. Sure these people may have been smoking cannabis, drunk or on something else, but those things alone don’t necessarily cause the devastation that can happen when MDMA is added into the equation. 

So after all this, I don’t know. I would have a hard time believing that someone who abuses MDMA for a period of time will experience no negative effects, but that’s because it seriously wrecked me so I’m going off my personal experience. 

[Nickyy]

@Flowerfaeiry Noted. But let's put it into perspective. We've got no conclusive evidence that the drug itself is harmful. I and many others went years literally abusing the drug. The number of deaths compared to the number of times a does has been taken is negligible. You yourself took it every day for months on end and had an episode of paranoia and some (temporary?) memory loss?

With all this in mind, Is it really reasonable to say that taking small amounts of MDMA for therapeutic purposes poses a high risk?

 

[remember]

mdma, if pure, and that would be one of the main problems to find, is a really amazing experience and can show a person what is possible in sense of love. but even in a therapeutic way i would use it only to unlock the ability to envision love in a ONE TIME experience and to go completely safe not to develope longterm damages in the ability to feel happyness, because that`s where the longterm use can be minimizing (if anything i would reduce the use to once a year or so, that should be minimizing the longterm effect). also why it`s not good for therapeutic reasons, one problem with mdma is the mdma hangover, after the mdma leaves the sytem there can be some days where everything feels gray or loveless, what triggers the feeling of wanting the experience again and also bears a risk for depressed people, mdma is better for stable people, but nihilists could profit  - it will never be like the first time though, that`s what people should prepare for if they take it. also mdma does make sense to take with people instead of alone, because that`s where its true value is - it`s not a solo trip thing for meditation it´s a socializing drug which lets you feel connectedness to others and the universe. and like with any psychedelic it`s much more relevant to integrate what you have learned during the trip than to numb yourself with the illusion over and over again. it`s an emphatogen not a psychedelic.

with all respect don`t take small amounts of mdma on a regular basis like you could do with psychedelics.

of course everyone who goes on a trip should go prepared, so enough water supply against dehydration if you go dancing, maybe a reminder to drink but not to drink too much because you get scared of dehydration. and if you do it without physical activity just drink the normal amount.

cannabis is much more dangerous in my perception than mdma, in sense of bad trips or even psychosis triggering or paranoia triggering. so i can back up that study with own observations. although depressive people better stay away of both.

Edited October 31, 2019 by remember

[Shqipe]

No, but you should find a really good documentary about mushrooms so she can see the potential.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Shqipe

[outlandish]

There's some good discussion in here on MDMA. It's a bit off topic, but sensible discussion nonetheless.

The risks of MDMA do tend to be overblown. Dr. David Nutt stirred up a lot of controversy when he famously pointed out that "ecstacy is no more dangerous than horse riding", and he was probably right https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/feb/09/ecstasy-horse-riding. (Personally, I find horse riding terrifying )

Yet, MDMA does have its risks, and it's confounded by pill adulteration, and people mixing drugs, so it's hard to pick it all apart. I've definitely seen a few people who appeared to have suffered negative consequences from MDMA abuse in the late 90s rave scene - depression, burnout (and possibly worst of all, horrendous taste in some questionable flavours of dance music ), rumours of possible suicides triggered by the post MDMA dip. I didn't see these same problems in people who stuck to weed and the more classic psychedelics like acid or mushrooms.

The thing that I've never liked about MDMA is that it makes you completely indiscriminate in your love and appreciation of what's in front of you. This is the same thing that makes it such a powerful therapeutic agent, because you can look directly at that most difficult thing within you, and love an accept it with no resistance, and thus heal it. However, when taken in a party context, it's really asking for trouble. You're wide open to any nonsense, and you're going to love it all without question. I suppose this is more of a spiritual risk, rather than an existential danger or health risk of MDMA.

As far as health risks go, it's a bit hard on your heart, you risk overheating, dehydration, overhydration, possible minor neurotoxicity from the metabolites, serotonin depletion can lead to dullness and "Suicide Tuesdays". All of these risks can be mitigated, and people certainly engage in riskier behaviours without really questioning it.

[mikelyons]

@Nickyy Pulling the trigger 5 times in single-player russian roulette does not make the game safe.

Edited November 1, 2019 by mikelyons
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