What if there is No Truth to Discover and Enlightenment Does Not exist?

[Nak Khid]

1:00:18

Quote

Video: How To Discover What's True - A Deep Inquiry (Actualized.org on youtube)

1:00:08

"Well Leo what if it's not even possible in theory to discover the truth?
What if there is no truth to discover?
What if all this is just mental masturbation?"

Yeah that's possible but also notice if that's true then that is the truth
>> but you don't know that that's true

 

What is being discussed here with this term "The Truth" ?
What does that mean?
If  I were to say "trees grow on planet earth"  or "cats have legs"

Is that "The Truth"  ?

If you say "no, those are truths but that is not 'The Truth"   then what is "The Truth" ?

Somebody might say "I am enlightened I know the The Truth"

So if we asked such a person "how many trees exist in the Philippines"?  and the person said "I don't know".
That would mean that knowing "The Truth"  does not include knowing all true statements.

Somebody else says " we can't be sure trees grow on planet earth because we might be dreaming it ".
If this is the case  "The Truth" of anything cannot be said to exist and the whole concept of something being true does not mean anything, end of discussion.

___________________________________.

But if we do accept the statement "trees grow on planet earth" is true.  Is that "The Truth" ?

What, for argument's sake  "The Truth" and "Enlightenment" are examples of magical thinking, coming out of religions like Hinduism and Buddhism? 

So let's say using the word "true" is not entirely meaningless but we can accept many statements like "trees grow on planet earth"

So if we can accept that as being true we might also accept as true most human beings have subconscious urges that
often have a strong influence on our behavior
Probably dues to biological instincts for survival we have desires for food, sex and other forms of stimulation and these can cause strong feelings within use which compel us to act on them.

This leads us to some options in how to live our lives

1) Follow one's desires as freely as possible

2) Live a life  indulging in some desires but temporally and not in repetitive excess  because this has the potential for excess and negative consequences .
Most people live like this in varying degrees and such a life will have some periods of stability and other periods of highs and lows.

3)  Live a life and practice not becoming attached to any type of desire.  This can be very difficult for many because of our biological survival instincts which can entice us to excess through chemistry in the brain which can cause feelings of pleasure to be attached to things. In this lifestyle one tries to the best of one's extent to avoid indulging in pleasure or egotistical desire and instead, choosing to have maximum stability and peace, sacrificing momentary highs because in doing so inevitably also leads to lows and that both highs and lows are disruptive to one's peace.

So this is my question.  If we look at option 3 which is not what the common person does and we pursue that non-attached way of living to some extent or even to the best of our ability, what if we are to look at "Enlightenment" or "The Truth", despite it's historical mystical associations as simply the character of a person who has trained themselves to be much less attached to worldly things than the average person and leads a lot more peaceful life.
One could discard the the terms "Enlightened" or "The Truth" altogether even
or we could regard these things, not as describing a person who "knows what existence is"   but instead describes a person who "has figured it out" . They have figured out that if you choose to live the most mentally stable and peaceful way of living, the enlightened being is defined as one that has "figured out" that "The Truth" is that attachment to our animal urges and egotistical desires leads to suffering and that one that is highly practiced in overcoming these things.    Why not regard the "The Truth" and being "Enlightened" as this instead of conceiving it as some kind of scientific-like discovery of some mythical formula or feeling about some supposed key as to how the entire universe operates?
What if existing in such a peaceful existence questions or any sort become unimportant?


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Nak Khid
format change

[Leo Gura]

You are speculating and not doing the inquiry.

You don't know what the Truth is. But it is possible to know.

You are missing something very, very, very BIG!

[Nak Khid]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You are speculating and not doing the inquiry.

You don't know what the Truth is. But it is possible to know.

You are missing something very, very, very BIG!

According to centuries of Buddhist monks there are 4 Truths

First Noble Truth - To live means to suffer

Second Noble Truth - The origin of suffering is attachment

Third Noble Truth - The cessation of suffering is attainable

The Noble Eightfold Path is a practice if followed steadily can reduce suffering.
_____________________________________________________________

The Eightfold Path

 1.  Right View: our actions have consequences, death is not the end, and our actions and beliefs have consequences after death.
 2.  Right Resolve or Intention: the giving up home and adopting the life of a religious mendicant in order to follow the path; this concept aims at peaceful renunciation, into an environment of non-sensuality, non-ill-will (to loving kindness), away from cruelty (to compassion). Such an environment aids contemplation of impermanence, suffering, and non-Self.
3.    Right Speech: no lying, no rude speech, no telling one person what another says about him.
4.    Right Conduct or Action: no killing or injuring, no taking what is not given, no sexual acts, no material desires.
5.    Right Livelihood: beg to feed, only possessing what is essential to sustain life;
6.    Right Effort: preventing the arising of unwholesome states, and generating wholesome states, the bojjhagā (seven factors of awakening). This includes indriya-samvara, "guarding the sense-doors," restraint of the sense faculties.
 7.   Right Mindfulness "retention," being mindful of the dhammas ("teachings," "elements") that are beneficial to the Buddhist path.  "bare attention": never be absent minded, being conscious of what one is doing; the awareness of the impermanence of body,
 8.   Right samadhi  practicing four stages of dhyāna ("meditation"), which includes samadhi proper in the second stage, and reinforces the development of the bojjhagā, culminating into upekkha (equanimity) and mindfulness., concentration or one-pointedness of the mind, and supplemented by insight.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

So according to centuries of Buddhist practice this is what they says are the 4 Noble truths and 8 paths methodologies derived form those truths to becoming enlightened and reduce suffering.  

Thy also have a large body of texts that elaborate on their claims of 4 Noble truths.

To call these "The Truth" (in 4 parts) may or may not be meaninglessness. Nevertheless these four statements are regards as truths. (and I ask you perhaps a singular truth is what is false) thinks of infinite truthS (if we must use the word)

Suppose someone were to suggest "The Truth" and "The meaning of our existence" are questions which have no meaning or circular reasoning ?
And what if knowing that in a state of attachment (that we may not realize we still have) appears (falsely) but nevertheless cause a sense of profound existential dread and felling of Nihilism? 

But what if instead we realized questions and answers are mental constructs? (some hate the idea)
  And what if we could accept this? And what if we could realize that being entirely free of attachments may not be possible but there is a degree of overcoming attachment and this is what   "enlightenment" is, overcoming? And what if only after attaining this level of overcoming attachment only then can we not be in dread and loathe unanswered questions and unknown "Truth" and be at peace in not knowing, that "knowing" itself is a construct, yet another animal survival tool.

What I'm saying is that to give up the concept of "The Truth" does not mean a person has decided to return to common worldly pursuits, money, power, food , sex etc.  Not at all, that pursuit of the Truth leads to suffering because peace is the true goal

But I could be entirely wrong

Yet if  someone claims they already know the truth they should be able to state it concisely as the Buddhists do with the 4 noble truths and also perhaps put it in a book for the world to digest.  And I would also have to ask them "Are you the only person that knows 'The Truth"?
But one says it is impossible to outline it concisely in words then it is not  value to use the words "The Truth" to label this claim.   If it is not expressible in a concise outline and is beyond words then to label it with a word is a translation of no use.
If that is the case one can only live it an that others may see it

 

 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

Absolute Truth is not a concept and cannot ever be communicated.

You do not know if what the Buddhists say is true. Lots of people say lots of stuff.

You must discover Truth for yourself, without reliance on any human sources or language.

It is NOT safe to assume that Truth can be written down or even thought.

[Anirban657]

@Leo Gura What if I cognize the truth through intuition?

[MusicalPotato]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Absolute Truth is not a concept and cannot ever be communicated.

You do not know if what the Buddhists say is true. Lots of people say lots of stuff.

You must discover Truth for yourself, without reliance on any human sources or language.

It is NOT safe to assume that Truth can be written down or even thought.

I know I am god. I'm pretty sure the way you came to the same conclusion is similar to the way I did, and is the core idea at the center of enlightenment. Solipsism makes a lot of sense to me because you don't know if anyone else is conscious. You can have a conscious conversation with them, but you don't have any way of knowing they aren't functionally a robot giving you programmed responses. You are god as well, because you recognized it. We am god, sucks that I decided we don't get powers this time around, just knowledge. I think about things from the perspective that I am god a lot and it helps certain things make sense. Whenever anyone makes an I statement, have the perspective that You (I) are the one who actually said it. But that's probably a simplified explanation that I will never know the absolute truth about because no one is going to tell me, and even fewer will agree.

[Scruffy Pacifist]

Hi Musical Potato,

Hope all is well.

There is conceptual truth (which is relative) and experiential truth (which is experienced in silence).

When one attempts to conceptualise experiential truth it can create duality and confusion to others who haven't felt inner silence consistently.

I will say this - words are magic and cast a spell on people. You can derive glimpses of the experiential truth through words but not stay in this silence.

Through the journey to inner peace, when one attempts to earnestly cultivate silence through meditation, epiphanies will arise in the mind's eye. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole abandon all epiphanies. Stay in the silence. Then reality will reveal itself beyond words and life and death.

The real truth can't be explained in words as it is what you are.

Silence is key!

Your posts are too thought heavy and you're over analysing concepts that were originally spoken to point the listener to inner silence.

Don't forget "truth" is a problem of the conceptual mind, you are beyond the conceptual mind. So forget words, enjoy silence

Hoped that helped Mr Potato.

 

[MusicalPotato]

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Scruffy Pacifist said:

Hi Musical Potato,

Hope all is well.

There is conceptual truth (which is relative) and experiential truth (which is experienced in silence).

When one attempts to conceptualise experiential truth it can create duality and confusion to others who haven't felt inner silence consistently.

I will say this - words are magic and cast a spell on people. You can derive glimpses of the experiential truth through words but not stay in this silence.

Through the journey to inner peace, when one attempts to earnestly cultivate silence through meditation, epiphanies will arise in the mind's eye. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole abandon all epiphanies. Stay in the silence. Then reality will reveal itself beyond words and life and death.

The real truth can't be explained in words as it is what you are.

Silence is key!

Your posts are too thought heavy and you're over analysing concepts that were originally spoken to point the listener to inner silence.

Don't forget "truth" is a problem of the conceptual mind, you are beyond the conceptual mind. So forget words, enjoy silence

Hoped that helped Mr Potato.

 

I understand a lot of what I know is experientially derived and assumptive. In a lot of ways, I know it will probably only make sense to me. I don't think there is a such a thing as over-analyzing, you should question your every assumption about reality until you're beating a dead horse that can't tell you the answer. I want to forget words, but words are one of the only ways I know of to communicate understanding with other humans over the internet. There are emojis too but I don't know if they can explain things with as much depth(or shallowness).  

Duality is there and it really pleasing to poke holes in it. How come there is anything and not nothing? but with anything comes nothing, hence duality. 

I have a theory that the first time you meditate enlightenment is gained, the work comes in recognizing it. Once I realized it I knew that I already knew the answer before even starting to question reality. I just wondered why it took so long for me this time around.

[SoonHei]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Absolute Truth is not a concept and cannot ever be communicated.

@Nak Khid trying to communicate absolute truth is like someone in your dream at night trying to slap the sleeping you on the bed. they can only ever slap the you who is inside of the dream, not the you who is sleeping on the bed, dreaming.

that contact is not possible

same way, absolute truth is not possible to be communicated in words, ideas, concepts.

[MusicalPotato]

If Truth is real, and everything is the Truth, then the Truth that there is no Truth is also the ultimate truth.

[Nak Khid]

7 hours ago, SoonHei said:

@Nak Khid trying to communicate absolute truth is like someone in your dream at night trying to slap the sleeping you on the bed. they can only ever slap the you who is inside of the dream, not the you who is sleeping on the bed, dreaming.

that contact is not possible

same way, absolute truth is not possible to be communicated in words, ideas, concepts.

Why do you assume "absolute truth" or "The truth" means something real?

For arguments sake let's say "trees grow on planet earth" and that fire can burn things"  are truths.
And let us assume that those statements are not what is meant by "absolute truth" or "The truth"  (same intent with both)

Then why are we to believe "The Truth" exists  rather than only "truths" a collection of infinite truthful statements?
And why should  the word "the"   be applied before the word "truth" or capitalization of the first letter to imply something special?

As I said before if someone uses a term "The Truth" then they should be able to outline what it is in words.
If not then it confuses people to say this term "The Truth" using words, claim to know what it is but then not explain what it is in words. 

Assuming "The Truth" is not a superstitious magical belief I think someone claiming to know what it is can take one of these positions

a) I know the The Truth but it is impossible to articulate in words

b) I know the The Truth but it is impossible to articulate in words but it is evident in my actions and inactions

c)  This is the Truth_________________________________________ (would be stated in further words)

d) This is the Truth (no further words are mentioned and there silence after making the statement ( corresponds to position "a) " above )
so that the blank line above not being filled in represents the truth aka "impossible to articulate in words" choice "a"

e) I know the The Truth but I will not tell you because you can't handle it right now, if I told you it would have a detrimental effect on you.
but I'll give you some bits and pieces of wisdom in the meantime that you can handle, maybe later you could handle it 

f) The Truth is that we are born, we eat, we sleep, we die

g) The Truth is Love

h) The Truth is that everything is One

i) The Truth is Peace

j) The Truth is Silence

k) The Truth is that there is no truth, life is meaningless. It's a horrible situation, but we just have to live with it

l) The Truth is that there are only true statements no special "The Truth" exists or "absolute truth" exists.
The word "meaning" or "meaninglessness"  are similar contrivances. and if we fully understand that that it is not horrible it just is reality.
"The Truth" is another idea and ideas are symbols that our brains generate to help us survive but they are not reality.
Things being horrible or things being sublime and peaceful are feelings based on out personal survival instinct for comfort

m) An absolute truth or "The Truth" might be possible to state in words but so far no human has been capable of doing it but it can be experienced
and there are spiritual methods of experiencing it

n) The Truth is correctly stated in certain books but I won't tell he what they are because not everybody is not supposed to know it or ever know it

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Nak Khid
left out a word

[SoonHei]

@Nak Khid THE TRUTH is simply a term used to POINT to that-which-cannot-be-directly-pointed-at

it is also called enlightenment, oneness, non-duality - many names!

but all are just names/labels given to it.

 

9 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

As I said before if someone uses a term "The Truth" then they should be able to outline what it is in words.

I have never eaten an apple. now please, tell me what it tastes like...

as you can see, you will use words to explain the taste, right. but if i have never eaten an apple, you words CANNOT make me taste it. to taste it, i must eat an apple. that's the best. all the rest of it are simply words/concepts attempting to capture the taste.

 

another example would be to try and make someone smell a scent they have never smelled before using words. words only point. you must smell it with your nose to KNOW the TRUTH/SMELL  

[Nak Khid]

8 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

@Nak Khid THE TRUTH is simply a term used to POINT to that-which-cannot-be-directly-pointed-at

it is also called enlightenment, oneness, non-duality - many names!

but all are just names/labels given to it.

 

I have never eaten an apple. now please, tell me what it tastes like...

as you can see, you will use words to explain the taste, right. but if i have never eaten an apple, you words CANNOT make me taste it. to taste it, i must eat an apple. that's the best. all the rest of it are simply words/concepts attempting to capture the taste.

 

another example would be to try and make someone smell a scent they have never smelled before using words. words only point. you must smell it with your nose to KNOW the TRUTH/SMELL  

Why do you assume "The Truth" exists ?

[SoonHei]

@Nak Khid I know i exist

No assumption here

 

[Nak Khid]

.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Nak Khid