The Strict Rationalist's Justification for Nondualism & Philosophical Implications

[Synchronicity]

Ahh I see. I missed that response above. Very well then! I’m fine with ending this conversation on that note of both of us acknowledging our lenses. Many blessings ❤️

[crab12]

@dyslexicFcuk I can easily poke holes into your reasoning, since you brought up physics and the double slit experiment. According to latest physics, electron is a wave, not a particle. Particle-wave dualism is an incorrect way of thinking about electrons. It's a tiny and concentrated wave that seems like a particle if you look from far. So if the slits are close enough and small enough the electron literally travels through both slits at the same time and interferes with itself and creates the interference pattern. The bulk of the electron travels through one slit, but some of the wave propagates through the other slit. And you can't detect an electron with a camera, you have to put up some kind of detection screen which the electron has to pass through. And this is enough to stop the miniscule wave propagation that would have created the interference pattern.

There is no evidence for non-duality to be found in the external world. In fact, everything in the external world implies that reality is dualistic. Only if you go inwards, you can find that reality is non-dual, despite the external world that seems dualistic, at first glance at least. You will eventually reach this conclusion, because fundamentally that's how the mind is constructed. This is the only conclusion you can reach if you are absolutely honest with yourself.

[dyslexicFcuk]

@crab12 Well go on, poke holes in my reasoning... I'm waiting. You haven't even come close, all you have done is point out an unsubstantiated assertion that particle-wave dualism is not how to consider electrons. The reasoning I employ does not hinge solely on this facet. Seriously, you have not even come close to addressing the substance of my inductive reasoning, what a pompous oversight to think you can "easily" poke holes into something you have clearly not considered. You seemingly stopped reading after you noticed I referred to electrons as matter particles and decided "He said electrons are matter, I saw somewhere it's not so the whole thing is wrong now". Try again, buddy.

I'm actually embarrassed reading these responses. I've tricked myself into thinking I'd come across other intelligent people here. The intention of this thread (as clearly stated) is to unite perspectives and use logic to discern whether "spiritual development" is a valid pursuit, or if it is a delusion caused by psychedelics. I have provided a very compelling basis to justify at least a non-dual worldview, but more perspectives are needed to discern the truth of whether there actually exists an "enlightened" state where suffering is transcended.

All I'm seeing is "Look inward and the answers will flow" bullshit. Even if this sentiment is somehow true, how are you people so blissfully unaware of how asinine you look? If I ever become "enlightened" I hope to God I never become such a pretentious peddler of bullshit. If someone is genuinely trying to further their understanding and makes it clear that the only means for doing this with them are through rationality, why in the world do you even waste your time with pithy aphorisms and stupid proverbs that mean nothing to people who don't already buy into your worldview?

Is it going to be possible to get this thread back in the direction it was intended to go? I doubt it, people are too stupid. I ask if you have nothing to contribute to post nothing at all. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

@dyslexicFcuk  
What a pleasant read! Thank you for sharing.

I totally respect that endeavor and I find it much needed to bring these ideas forward, and taken seriously. Here's my attempt from a slightly different angle:
https://antonsjournal.home.blog/2019/01/01/the-mysterious-nature-of-awareness/

Cheers.

[Inliytened1]

@dyslexicFcuk so it does seem from your post that you do indeed intuit that there is something more to reality than it just being a clockwork universe.  If that were not the case then you probably wouldn't be innately curious and on the forum.

For example - when you ask the question - when a tree falls in the forest and no one is around - does it make a sound?  This question should innately bother you.  (And it seems to) It should bother you because you think to yourself - how could something exist if no one is conscious of it?  It makes no sense as to how or why the tree could or would need to be there.  It breaks the mind so to speak.   However - if reality is pure consciousness then you are left with a satisfying answer and solution to the problem.

And you can become directly conscious that this is indeed the case.    When we say you can become directly conscious we really mean that the "you" collapses into pure consciousness - much like a wave function of pure potentiality collapses into a particular subatomic particle or "possiblity" within quantum mechanics except in reverse.

In other words right now you are a possiblity that will collapse in the reverse direction into pure potential.   You realize that you are consciousnes itself.

So back to your concern on enlightenment being the end of suffering - while it is liberating beyond words - you do ultimately return to a finite possiblity again after the direct experience of Being.  Here the real work commences.  There are still more awakenings and realizations to come, and you can realize that duality and non-duality are One and identical.  The form and formless are identical.  Science and rationalism are not frowned apon but embraced.  The unification of science and mysticism ultimately will mean the evolution of science to new heights.

And the work commences with the realization that God exists - but not in the way the religious pre-rational minds think - but from the trans-rational perspective.  With this, One then is not so concerned with physical or emotional suffering as they have seen beyond it.  They grasp all of reality and now strive to embody God in finite form.  Physical suffering may continue but one begins to transcend emotional and mental suffering as a result of being so much more conscious.  Even physical suffering can be transcended through deeper consciousness.  Problems that arise in your life can easily be overcome because you have such a deep understanding now of how reality works.  This in itself is a relief from suffering.  Conflicts still arise but can be conquered through an understanding that you never had prior to being awake. 

Thus the path to completely relinquishing all suffering only begins with enlightenment - it doesn't end with it.    Thus enlightenment isn't an on off switch (although in a sense it also is as becoming pure Being cannot be captured with language)  as there are facets and degrees and multiple mystical experiences followed by an embodiment phase which could span decades.   If it is something you choose to pursue i wish you the best.  Also i want to add that i have never taken pyschedelics but i think i may be naturally inclined to spirituality because the tree question you mentioned bothered me back when i was 10 yrs old though at the time i dismissed it - and i noticed that to some the question makes no sense.   I was a materialist and an atheist before stumbling into spirituality.  

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Inliytened1

[JustThinkingAloud]

4 hours ago, dyslexicFcuk said:

I'm actually embarrassed reading these responses. I've tricked myself into thinking I'd come across other intelligent people here. The intention of this thread (as clearly stated) is to unite perspectives and use logic to discern whether "spiritual development" is a valid pursuit, or if it is a delusion caused by psychedelics.

It’s not our job to do the integration for you. You’ve heard our perspectives, do you integration yourself. We’re not in your brain, we don’t know what’s in it, it’s purely your job to make sense out of it.

Sorry that I shared my perspective even if it’s what you asked for, you obviously don’t want to hear it and just want to push your view on others. You want us to take on your beliefs and that will never happen unless you have a 100% proof. These are all theories including yours. If you think that your theory is the best, good for you, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s right and everyone will agree.

If you want to come to a good conclusion, you do need to consider all the facts first.

Edited October 29, 2019 by JustThinkingAloud

[crab12]

@dyslexicFcuk

13 hours ago, crab12 said:

@dyslexicFcuk I can easily poke holes into your reasoning

I agree, that does come off as arrogant. My intent wasn't to be condescending, but the words slipped in. I apologize for that.

Obviously you put a lot of effort into your OP with multiple lines of reasoning. I only wanted to address that one flaw, not the entire post.

edit: the thing with trying to use rational arguments to prove non-duality (dualistic monism) is that I can always bring a pretty strong counter-argument. For the classical double slit experiment which you brought as proof, I can explain it away with quantum field theory, which is strongly substantiated. Next you bring up delayed-choice-quantum-eraser and I say "many worlds interpretation!" which is still a deterministic model. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can always at least cast a shadow of a doubt to your arguments. I guess it does sound woo-woo to outsiders but the only strong evidence you are ever going to find is by looking within your own mind.

Edited October 30, 2019 by crab12