Reality/god is meaningless

[arlin]

Ok. And what do you believe happends when you die?

Does this emptines wakes up and says "wow im god". Or does the sense of self fall away and only what remains is that pure emptiness?

@Nahm

Edited October 28, 2019 by arlin

[SoonHei]

@DoubleYou xoxo

 

[Nahm]

Peace, love, and understanding is our infinite being. 

 

 

@arlin Emptiness is far from empty. 

[SoonHei]

@DoubleYou also read this: 

So much has been written about this, but few seem to understand that this supposed Advaita ( Not 2) Siddhant ( philosophical conclusion) has come about due to the mis-translation of the word ‘Maya’ into English. This Sanskrit term does not translate squarely into English as ‘illusion’. There are subtleties to the meaning, which more correctly can be understood as: ‘That which is not’. Which refines the meaning from: the thing only seems to exist... to: that thing is indeed Real— but is not what I think it is.

For Adi Shankara, the world is not an illusion— it is indeed real. But it is Maya. And Maya is also Real. It is an eternal power of Brahman (the Divine). It is the power which keeps the experience of the Divine obscured. That obscuration is also obviously indeed Real. So Maya is Real— not an illusion, which implies thinking something is there when it’s not. Well, It IS there!— but it’s not what we think it is. Based on this mis-translation of Sanskrit, the Neo Non Duality movement has been born.

[arlin]

5 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Peace, love, and understanding is our infinite being. 

 

 

@arlin Emptiness is far from empty. 

This video was going to make me cry hey ahahaha

[arlin]

@SoonHei This was helpfull too, thank you

[SoonHei]

@arlin

love you

 

and @Nahm you too broooooooooooo

[Nahm]

America, Italy, Canada, Being...a hundred years ago this moment would have been dubbed impossible. Love you guys. Really love where being is headed with all this. 

[Forestluv]

@arlin You are asking really good existential questions that dig into deeper layers.

10 hours ago, arlin said:

You all agree that this experience is an illusion. 

Be careful with accepting/rejecting sides of duality. The human mind is conditioned to think in opposites. 

Most humans are conditioned to believe that everything in their waking life is "real". This is attachment/identification to one side of a "real vs. illusion" duality. To break this attachment/identification, it can be helpful to see the opposite side of the duality: that everything in their waking life is illusion. This is a major breakthrough in consciousness. However. . . the mind will want to now attach/identify with the opposite: that all of life is illusion. This is still playing the game of the duality. The next step is to transcend the opposites of real vs. illusion. In what ways is waking life real? In what ways is it illusion? Have you ever been in a state of mind in which you could not tell the difference between real and illusion? Perhaps during a lucid dreaming state or on a psychedelic. . . Then we see that real and illusion are mental constructs we are creating. Real = Illusion and Illusion = Real. . . However, this doesn't mean that the duality doesn't have practical purpose. If I got a call that my sister was in the hospital after a car accident, at the human level I would consider that as "real" and I would go to the hospital and try to help. 

10 hours ago, arlin said:

However, that sense of "i" gives rise to the experience that then becomes "my life" as if i am experiencing something. Ad it "all of this" is happening to an "i". 

Yes, experience is a contextualization. From this perspective, experience never happened. The mind simply contextualizes it. "That was a beautiful bird that just flew by" is a contextualization. Adding in the "I" is further contextualization. "That was a beautiful bird that just flew by. It reminds my of my childhood in California. I've always loved birds. Perhaps I would be a good Ornithologist"

10 hours ago, arlin said:

When You come to understand that the "i" is an illusion, you also understand that you can not really know reality if there is still an "i" there. 

Be careful here with "knowing" and "reality". There is an underlying assumption that there is an objective reality that can be known. This is entering a deeper level of "knowing" and "reality". The ladders of "knowing" and "reality" are useful to climb to higher levels, yet eventually they need to get discarded and we upgrade to new ladders. 

Also be careful with conflations of "you". The term you is so strongly associated with a personal identity, it can cloudy the picture. To rephrase:

When awareness arises that the "i" is an illusion, there is understanding that reality can't really be known if there is still an "i" there. 

Here, I removed ownership of awareness, understanding and knowing. I think this is an important step to transcend the "you". Just notice awareness, understanding and knowing without any owner. Once this is realized, the transcendent You can be explored. Yet I think it's really hard to do before the "observer + object" stage is reached (in this case, the construct of a "you" is an object being observed).

10 hours ago, arlin said:

So what you do? You say: "Ok, since i understand that. I have to find a way to dissolve the " i", then i can know the truth for what it is". And this is what you do, you use psychedelics to achieve this. 

I think this is at the "observer + object stage" and is starting to see that the construct of a personal "you" is just a story. Yet the "observer" is being conflated with "you". This is dividing "you" into a "higher me (the observer)" and the "lower me being observed". This is an intermediate stage. Rupert Spira explains it very well. He refers to it as "enlightened duality".

One of the keys is knowing what this "higher you" is. Yet it is at a stage in which it cannot be explained rationally. It can only be "pointed" to. 

10 hours ago, arlin said:

When you do psychedelics, you have that experience. You see things for what they really are. Then your "i" comes back. And of course thinks he knows what it was seen. 

There is another way to see this. "Are-ness" is evident during a psychedelic trip or while sober. Both psychedelic and sober is "Are-ness". Human minds are conditioned to see their sober perception as the "real Are-ness". Taking psychedelics can destroy the attachment to sober being the "real Are-ness". Once again, flipping to the other side of the duality in which the psychedelic state is "real Are-ness". Yet be careful about becoming attached to either side of the duality. For example "The psychedelic state was illusion and sober is real" OR "The psychedelic state is real and the sober state is illusion". Psychedelic and sober states are BOTH real and illusion. One power of psychedelics is that they can break the attachment to sober being real. However, we don't want to become attached to the other side of the duality that psychedelic states are real. BOTH states are real and illusion. 

10 hours ago, arlin said:

Somebody says: "This was absolutely terrifying". Leo prefers to say: "This was absolutely fantastic". 

But you see, this is a duality. This is just an interpretation that the  "i" imposes on that experience. 

So when you come back, you think you know what you saw. But of course you don't. What you saw was meaningless. 

It is not there for anybody. It just is. 

It is not wonderful, unconditional love, an incredible intelligent design. It is has not a greater scheme. It is not a bigger picture. It is not even meaningless. It just is. It can't be described. 

It's all contextualizations by the human mind. You don't even need the "I" in there. That just adds in another layer. The "I" is at the personal level. Contextualization occurs at the human level (the personal level adds another layer). For example, "This was terrifying". Can simply be terror without a personal "I" identifying as being terrorized. It could simply be the feeling of terror with no owner. And yes, it goes through an interpretive filter. This filter doesn't need the personality construct. There is a filter at the human level. One human may interpret the felling as terror. Another human can interpret the feeling as an awesome adrenaline rush. . . The personality is an extra add-in. For example, a person can interpret the feeling "That was terrorizing. I have never experienced something so terrifying. I wonder if I went through ego death. I hope this trauma doesn't interfere with my personal development work". . . Notice how we have added in the personality dynamic to the contextualization.

10 hours ago, arlin said:

It is not there for anybody. It just is. 

This is a trans-personal view.

10 hours ago, arlin said:

It is not wonderful, unconditional love, an incredible intelligent design. It is has not a greater scheme. It is not a bigger picture. It is not even meaningless. It just is. It can't be described. 

Notice how we are embracing opposites again. One may become attached to: It was wonderful, unconditional love, an incredible intelligent design. The opposite of that is it is NOT wonderful, unconditional love, and incredible intelligent design. This can be a huge step in consciousness to see the falsity of one side. The temptation is to grasp the other side as true. For example, one may realize that the coin is not the heads side and see the tails side. The temptation is to grasp the tails side and say "Heads is false, Tails is true". . . For someone conditioned to believe heads is true, this is a huge step up in consciousness. The next stage is to realize the whole coin is BOTH heads and tails. They are not in opposition with each other. 

10 hours ago, arlin said:

So when you come back, you think you know what you saw. But of course you don't. What you saw was meaningless. 

Seeing it as meaningless is a huge step forward. Yet don't get attached to meaningless. Saying it is meaningless is attachment to one side of a "meaning vs. meaningless" construct you are creating. It would be more accurate to say there is an absence of meaning and the human minds assigns either meaninglessness or meaning.

10 hours ago, arlin said:

Now why are you all guys giving such meaning to those king of experiences? 

Why does leo talk about all this "wonderfull" things, which can be all a fairy tale? 

Because that is part of the human experience. That is part of the magic of life!! What else are humans going to do? Sit in a cave their whole life being trans-human Nothing/Everything? As a human, I'm not ready for that yet. It's a nice place to visit. Yet there are still things I want to explore and experience as a human. . . At the human level, growth and experience is infinite. I've barely scratched the surface. So much more to explore. 

10 hours ago, arlin said:

Never has really happened. Nothing needs to happen. And nobody will understand this.

Be careful with terms like "Never", "Nothing" and "Nobody". These terms can have existential value, yet are commonly conflated with rational usage. Never/Nothing/Nobody does not equal never/nothing/nobody. Conflating them together will cause confusion and inner turmoil. . . Never = Always. Nothing = Everything. Nobody = Everybody. 

[LastThursday]

1 hour ago, arlin said:

2 hours ago, LastThursday said:

It's not like you have a clean and clear and truthful version of what happened and a distorted version to compare with each other.

So which one is valid? 

They both are. But only at the time you are experiencing them. That's what living in the moment means. 

To be able to judge something as valid or not, you need to compare two things. But in order to compare two things, you need to have a "memory" of both things. Do you trust a memory?

But acceptance is kind of the opposite of judgement. It means you stop comparing two things which may be distorted, and just accept what is in front of you right now. That acceptance is truth or validity or non-judgement.

Acceptance doesn't mean that it's meaningless, to the contrary acceptance has more meaning than judgement.

[arlin]

19 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

This is a trans-personal view.

What does this mean?

However, @Serotoninluv i thank you for the time you took into answering my questions. This was a very long and detailed answer, which i have to read through a bunch of times and think to reply. I have already read it once, and i can see that you understood what i was talking about, and you presented interesting points. Thank you.

 

@LastThursday Interesting, thank you!

[allislove]

@arlin thanks for the thread. So many nice answers here. 

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, arlin said:

What does this mean?

It is a term used to describe a perspective that is transcendent to the personality construct.

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, arlin said:

Does it have a choice to make itself unconscious? Can't it be like this because it can't be no other way?  Does he even have a sense of self? Or is it just pure isness without self?

So which one is valid? 

 

Pure infinite Love and intelligence.  It wants to explore itself fully.  It is alone so the only way it can know itself is through being itself thru itself and creating separation.  I know you have heard all of this before  but it is what it is...yes it has a choice but God gets bored too

 And it doesn't see hate and dumbness like you as a finite ego does.  It Loves all of itself unconditionally.

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Inliytened1

[arlin]

On 28/10/2019 at 6:25 PM, Serotoninluv said:

The next step is to transcend the opposites of real vs. illusion.

But this implies that there is something else beyond non duality. If you point out to me a third objects which transcends real vs illusion, non duality must also be applied to that third object (And that third object would be real and not real itself). And we can continue on like this forever.

There is only non duality. 

In fact, let's talk about non duality applied to awareness. Because this is the bottom line, right? Everything arises because there is an awareness of it.

On 28/10/2019 at 6:25 PM, Serotoninluv said:

Just notice awareness, understanding and knowing without any owner. Once this is realized, the transcendent You can be explored.

Awareness is happening. Like everything else. Why? It just is. Everything has no meaning or purpose. Let me briefly explain how i know non duality.

This, is all there is. By this, i mean this reality. And is infinite, boundless, limitless, formless. And it is all just happening. Within that arises an awareness (That seems to be located in that body), and suddenly, everything becomes dual.

By that point forward, This becomes a subject object experience.  So everything seems to be separate from you. The chair you are sitting in, the pc you are looking into. But we know it's all an illusion. (Notice that "sitting" and "looking" are just happening, like everything else within the experience. but they are also an illusion. Nothing really happends, it just appears to be.).

I want to emphasise, that i find awareness to be dualism. Awareness is dualism itself and exists in dualism. And from that point forward everything seems to be dual.

On 28/10/2019 at 6:25 PM, Serotoninluv said:

Psychedelic and sober states are BOTH real and illusion.

I understand that.

But whether you are tripping or not it must be "something" that appears to experience that. That "Something" is awareness. I don't mean that it's the you that experiences that as a personallity construct.

In a psychedelic trip, where the ego falls away there is just awareness, right? Without content.

So that's why i ephasised that non duality must also be applied to awareness. So we can get to the bottom line. By that i mean that awareness does not exist, it is an illusion. And it never really happends, it just appears to be.

When you die and awareness falls away... well it does not fall away. It just is recognized that it never really happend.

By who? Well by no one. There is no one left and no one ever was. 

Non duality to me is so radical that non duality itself is not real. It is a complete paradox.

I am open to explore this theory with you. Also, if you want you can ask clarification about terms such as "illusion" or "not real" etc, so we can communicate better. I can understand that often those words are loaded with different meanings which prevent clear communication.

 

I cannot seem to find space for a sentient God in all of this. 

How does god and non duality relate?

Edited October 29, 2019 by arlin