Let's Get Deeper Into This Whole Entity / Consciousness Hole

[khalifa]

We are made from countless trillions of various cells either bone/nerve/red/white blood cells. And so are other animals/plants/fish/insects/bacteria/viruses . Do these all have their entities as well? Or are we all one big nothing..?

 

No one can really answer it, but from observing it at this perspective, i feel like this enlightenment phase is just another self belief system. As any self/ego can be enlightened from any other religious background or view. Maybe it's just a higher state of analyzing life differently with a more like awareness view which causes another shed of illusion of dopamine peace? It doesn't seem that hard to believe  with such working a different set of trained working memory or rewired anapalstic brain. But the distractions and illusions are real as we have so much noise made within our own source of living from either thoughts/blood rushing around/emotions as a being that we are it's natural that we will always have it so we can't really break out of it. No one can really think outside the box since we're programmed to be in a certain way regardless of our efforts, It's kind of sad.

[30secs]

it's not sad, its miracle. We can't get out from the box of course, but we can!, through awareness:)

[vizual]

What do you mean by they have their own entity? Nothing is its own entity, there are no clear, defined lines in this reality. And enlightenment is not a belief, it's seeing reality for what it is beyond all the thoughts and beliefs. An ego can not be enlightened because what is an ego? Just a conglomeration of distorted beliefs. Of course these beliefs appear inside of the true reality, but the beliefs themselves don't reflect the truth. It's also not about thinking outside of the box, there only is the box, there is no way to think outside of it. All thoughts appear inside the box of awareness, that's why you can't take thoughts to be true because thoughts only reflect a distorted perspective on some of reality.

An enlightened being will not claim he has all the answers, he only knows in his heart that there are no answers. At least, the answers people are looking for can not be accurately communicated through the limited lens of language and symbols. The only truth may or may not be being/consciousness/god, and the only way to find out is to experience that for yourself and not take it on as a belief system.

[Salaam]

@khalifa

Conatus (from wiki)

"In early philosophies of psychology and metaphysics, conatus (/koʊˈneɪtəs/;[1] Latin for "effort; endeavor; impulse, inclination, tendency; undertaking; striving") is an innate inclination of a thing to continue to exist and enhance itself.[2] This "thing" may be mind, matter or a combination of both. Over the millennia, many different definitions and treatments have been formulated. Seventeenth-century philosophers René Descartes, Baruch Spinoza, Gottfried Leibniz, and Thomas Hobbes made important contributions.[3] The conatus may refer to the instinctive "will to live" of living organisms or to various metaphysical theories of motion and inertia."

Enlightenment like vizual and other people describe is limited and ignorant, due to the false conclusions they ascribe to and internalize from that limitation. It lacks nuance and is steeped in fear, delusion, and ignorance. They talk about having this limitless awareness, but yet they are unaware of how internalization/belief works. They should be able to feel the objective/physical shifts that happen when we internalize a belief, but for all their self-aggrandizement are physically incapable of such a task. They should understand contrast and have a physical capability with it that would allow for nuance and clear thinking in emotionally charged situations, but they don't. They don't have any first-person experience with feeling the individual streams of emotion and experience that happen as we move through life and no regard for protecting their integrity and fidelity (integrity of shape/composition, fidelity of expression).

It's keyboard jockey shit. Enlightenment is just a vague word and idea their attracted to and chase because their stressed by where they currently are. I get it, I'm not downing anyone for that. Beginner or developmental stress fucking sucks, but we can all do much, much better.

16 hours ago, khalifa said:

But the distractions and illusions are real as we have so much noise made within our own source of living from either thoughts/blood rushing around/emotions as a being that we are it's natural that we will always have it so we can't really break out of it. No one can really think outside the box since we're programmed to be in a certain way regardless of our efforts, It's kind of sad.

The way you're seeing it is sad, but that's not the way it has to be.

We grow and understand through connection/relation, building synergy, distinction, protecting the integrity of distinctions, and internalizing the feedback that comes from the success of these efforts.

If you want to have an awareness that isn't limited by the self-contained system of your "thinking mind" then you have to connect and synergize with, diversify the distinctions of, and protect those distinctions within your somatosensory system and other parts of your different nervous systems. The feedback from such an endeavor fills your mind with experiences, internalizations, and consequent physical shifts that provides a contrast for your "thinking mind". This contrast provides balance and "fills" in the connections that lie outside what the thinking part of ourselves is capable of.

Doing so gives you real world skills and abilities via the taking on of responsibilities that allows you to balance and bring nuance to all those shifting dynamics going on within your body. The more I grow, the more "I", I become, but also the more "We". Everything inside me is alive and has it's own conatus, it's own fidelity and integrity of shape, and I work with them to be who I am. I take care of them, connect, and have an intimate relationship with them that gives me deep understandings about myself and the world.

Thinking is a self-contained system, but it is a sub-system, not the whole system, and we can expand it's capabilities by synergizing and contrasting it with our other sub-systems, so we are not caged. (Plus the boundaries of that self-containment are porous, it's not an absolute boundary [it's analogous to the blood-brain barrier]. After many years you eventually learn to protect that boundary and take care of it, rather than try to break it down.)

We don't have to run away from this task, or give-up and delude ourselves with empty platitudes.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Salaam

[vizual]

@Salaam  You accuse me of being ignorant, yet you state all kinds of ignorant claims about me and my understanding and experience with enlightenment. I don't mind, but surely you can find the irony in that.

The thing I want to say about it is that all this stuff you talk about stil appears in one consciousness, it's not "keyboard jockey shit". You can study all the aspects that appear within this consciousness, but that doesn't make them necessarily true. Yes, even an enlightened one will experience inner resistance even when he is enlightened, but the fact that he doesn't mean words like "somatosensory system" doesn't mean he is ignorant.He just chooses to communicate his ideas about enlightenment from a different perspective than you do.

If anything, you seem to be the one incapable of recognizing nuance, different things resonate with different people and no single one thing is ultimately true. 

[khalifa]

@vizual

us humans have so much distractions going on, theirs all this unstoppable noise around us , we can't really stop ths noise, we can try and simulate this so called peace by a belief system of another illusion. but we can't change that we are still a programmed being made to feel/think in certain patterns and algorithms it's just impossible to think outside the box or feel things since even our feelings and simulations hit limits that we have set by our own dogmas. you can't be clean. yes you can try to be in a being state but that being state is still part human and you still have all that blood rushing around and the noise is still present that is why anyone can reach an enlightenment stage even with other belief systems. since in the end it's just another illusion.

[vizual]

@khalifa  It's not about states or belief systems, it's about not resisting reality anymore. Full acceptance, and there is no one inside of us that can 'do' that. It's a matter of not doing. The patterns inside of your brain can do just fine without a 'you' inside there to micromanage everything. The 'you' is more like a fifth wheel on a car.

Have you watched Leo's enlightenment video's? I think he explains quite well what enlightenment is, and what it isn't. I think you have the wrong impression. It's not about being in some unshakable zen-like trance all the time, it's more subtle than that.

[khalifa]

@vizual  yes i have , it's just i had a different view of it after leo said this

 

[Ayla]

Imagine for a moment a scene:

Ocean arriving at shore. There has been a storm and there's a lot of agitation. Waves are high on the side that has sand on, lower where there are rocks.. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how the waves hit the rocks here and the sand there, then the waves splash over a rock, and then calm down a little in a sandy place, before disappearing. 

Now.....Does the wave choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground, the sand, the weather conditions etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or is it more the product of environmental conditions and water, the sand, the rain and the storm, like an an ever-changing pattern?

Now, consider: can you find anywhere where 'I' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements, that is not a part of the overall flow?

 

 

[askdfjnak]

On 26/05/2016 at 7:30 AM, khalifa said:

No one can really think outside the box since we're programmed to be in a certain way regardless of our efforts, It's kind of sad.

From a scientific perspective, we are just biological robots. This is only sad because you believe that there is a box to escape.

 

On 26/05/2016 at 7:30 AM, khalifa said:

But the distractions and illusions are real as we have so much noise made within our own source of living from either thoughts/blood rushing around/emotions as a being that we are it's natural that we will always have it so we can't really break out of it.

What exactly are you going to break out of?

Thoughts?

Emotions?

Body functions?

These are only traps if you believe they are. You will struggle to stop things that are inevitable. You are a robot after all, you have no free will.

Ultimately it is the struggle that you want to stop, not thoughts, emotions and body functions. On their own they are completely inert phenomena arising and passing away. The self is just a confluence of these forces.

On 26/05/2016 at 7:30 AM, khalifa said:

We are made from countless trillions of various cells either bone/nerve/red/white blood cells. And so are other animals/plants/fish/insects/bacteria/viruses . Do these all have their entities as well? Or are we all one big nothing..?

They each have their own confluence of phenomena that give rise to "their" experience. But all of these phenomena are occurring in nothing.

The box we are trapped in is nothing.

The box we are trying to escape is nothing.

[Salaam]

On 5/27/2016 at 11:04 AM, vizual said:

@Salaam  You accuse me of being ignorant, yet you state all kinds of ignorant claims about me and my understanding and experience with enlightenment. I don't mind, but surely you can find the irony in that.

The thing I want to say about it is that all this stuff you talk about stil appears in one consciousness, it's not "keyboard jockey shit". You can study all the aspects that appear within this consciousness, but that doesn't make them necessarily true. Yes, even an enlightened one will experience inner resistance even when he is enlightened, but the fact that he doesn't mean words like "somatosensory system" doesn't mean he is ignorant.He just chooses to communicate his ideas about enlightenment from a different perspective than you do.

If anything, you seem to be the one incapable of recognizing nuance, different things resonate with different people and no single one thing is ultimately true. 

Eh, your writing leads me to believe you don't really have that deep an understanding of what nuance means. In a previous post you said "nothing is it's own entity, there are no clear, defined lines in this reality"  yet everything in reality has it's own core and a boundary of shape. Every cell and atom has a nucleus, the earth has a core, each organ in every kind of body has clear distinct lines of shape, that when breached cause a detriment to the overall organisms health. This is reality.  A boundary creates a shape, and a shape creates both specificity and limitation, gain and loss. That statement you made and many of the rest were clear cases of lacking nuance and having a flawed or inaccurate understanding of reality.

A keyboard jockey is a person who does not recognize or respect the limits of their own understandings and breaches those limits by parroting things that are not backed up by quality, first-hand experience. Jumping to conclusions and assumptions that people who do have those experiences, can recognize as inaccurate and yes ignorant.

Although it may seem counter-intuitive, limitation is a very necessary element of capability. It adds nuance and grounds you. It teaches you how awareness, potential, ignorance, and mystery all inter-relate.

People talk about wanting to have a limitless awareness, but they haven't even expanded their awareness far enough to realize, putting limitations on awareness is a necessary thing for protecting one's health. Awareness has a "weight" to it, which is probably why in quantum mechanics, observing a wave function causes particles to collapse, although scientists don't know that yet themselves, because they haven't sensitized their awareness to that degree either. But anyways, if people develop enough, they'll find that if awareness delves too deep, it disrupts the integrity of the structures that work behind your thoughts and awareness (it's not a big deal for most people though, because they can't even feel/see what's behind their thoughts. It takes a long time to be both that calm and that fast.) The point is even awareness needs a counter-balance.

Awareness is just another sub-system of who we are. It's great at specific things, but when it over-extends it will cause problems when a person is as developed with it as I am. I know this because I have the hard-won experience of hurting myself with awareness and learning how to protect the integrity of shape and fidelity of expression, of the very fragile, but powerful structures that all sync up to make me who I am.

Trust/Internalization is another sub-system with its own specific roles and limitations. Roles, few people show any real understanding of. Frankly, you guys come across as idiots with the way you talk about beliefs being an illusion (which is a belief/internalization and a stupid one). Every belief has an objective physical presence, that is a nuanced, context-specific chemical cascade, that our bodies INTERNALIZE into long-term memory and also automatically self-reference when it encounters outside stimulus that has an associative chemistry with this internalization. This association can be cooperative and synergistic, or it can be adversarial (attraction/acceptance or repulsion/rejection with all the different degrees in between such a spectrum). Just because it's internalized doesn't mean it's accurate, it just feels acceptable or attractive to that person, based on their current orientation and chemistry. 

Specificity means limitation, but synergy and cooperation among structures with specific roles, creates a development that makes those limitations avenues for cohesion and harmony. You find out that there are reasons for boundaries and beauty in fragility and the need for inter-relation and cooperation. But, you won't understand that with tunnel vision and this blind drive to JUST see everything as one thing.

You don't understand the reality of nature if you look at it from a one-dimensional lens.