How to integrate Creativity and Systems Thinking?

[randomguy123]

Hey guys,

Whilst reading both The Tao of Systems Thinking (Michael McCurley) and the Path of Least Resistance (Robert Fritz), I started wondering how these two perspectives on life which seem very different can be integrated. I enjoyed both books thoroughly, but I'm unsure how these two perspectives can be put together effectively. Below I'll give a brief overview of both approaches. Feel free to correct any inaccuracies and please give your opinion on how one should treat this duality.

Systems Thinking seems to put the emphasis on the analysis of a system. You try to discern all of its components and try create the best possible map for the thing it is your analyzing. Implicit in this approach is that you then take your model of a problem and get your mind or calculator to run calculations on it to solve the problem. The more accurate your model, the better your results will be. In general systems thinking seems to take the approach of problem solving and the solutions are dictated by the accuracy of your analysis. What most science today does is basically systems thinking, they collect data, make a model, which can then to a certain degree solve a problem or make a prediction. Advanced resources make for a much better model, by including more advanced concepts which result in a much more solid foundation (e.g. Actualized.org)

Creativity on the other hand is something else entirely. It does not concern itself with solving problems, but instead looks for what it wants to create. It is not obsessed with the rules that seem to govern a system and instead has a clear vision that it is pursuing. Ultimately those visions need to be grounded in reality and thus obey the rules of a system, but the approach is very different. You don't seek to deepen your analysis of whatever is going on and running the numbers on what is possible, but instead set out to defy the current model by creating what you want.

For the people that have read The Path of Least Resistance: Problem solving seems to lead to 'structural conflict', where you are completely boxed in by the rules of a system with little hope of escape. The creative approach is then presented as something entirely different which results in 'structural tension' and naturally leads to the realization of a creation.

My understanding is that problem solving is unlikely to create what you want and creating what you want is not likely to result in a deep understanding of the territory that you are dealing with. This duality is I guess that of the pursuit of Truth vs the pursuit of Creation. Both of which are necessary to be developed individually and are required to be integrated. This however leaves me to believe that the typical problem solving associated with Systems thinking is not actually the best approach to take responsibility of your life and of the world in creating what you want. The crux seems to be the extra step that most people take when provided with a system. That the rules established by the system, seem to dictate its result (i.e. morality). Because the system is so and so (or the world around us can be observed to be so and so), this means that one Should do this or this. Because the system is so and so, the calculations show that so and so is the best result, implying that this is the result that one should follow and pursue.

 

How do you think that these results can be integrated? Am I missing something or how can add to this analysis? Do you have a deeper insight? All responses welcome.

Cheers,

Lukas

[Nahm]

Consider looking forward, in the sense - to the physical, is where you create, and within you, in the sense - to the potentiality, is where creation manifests from. You, are that line in the middle. But there is no line, no middle. Ahead and within are perfectly designed to make it appear that there is ‘you’, in the middle. A bit Goldilocks that you are smack dab in between the size of an atom, and the earth. Coincidence?   So you are free to zoom in and analyze, problem solve, develop systems, etc...and you are free to zoom out to infinity, where there is no such thing as physical. Zoom in enough, and zoom out enough, and there’s no more seemingly “middle”. 

[Forestluv]

Beautiful conceptualization, Lukas. . . 

On 10/25/2019 at 11:48 AM, randomguy123 said:

Creativity on the other hand is something else entirely. It does not concern itself with solving problems, but instead looks for what it wants to create. It is not obsessed with the rules that seem to govern a system and instead has a clear vision that it is pursuing. Ultimately those visions need to be grounded in reality and thus obey the rules of a system, but the approach is very different. You don't seek to deepen your analysis of whatever is going on and running the numbers on what is possible, but instead set out to defy the current model by creating what you want.

Notice how you have created a duality. A duality so intense that you have two hands!! You have constructed systems vs. creativity. The integration is simple, yet not easy. . . All dualities involve opposition. Here, systems and creativity are opposed.  The mind is conditioned to see in opposites and will resist integration, because integration seems to lose the opposition to which the mind is attached. One key for integration is that loss of duality does not invalidate the duality. Saying systems is the same as creativity does not mean that systems isn't different than creativity. In this case, your mind is conditioned to see systems as different than creativity. Your mind has invested a lot of time and effort learning about systems and creativity and building constructs of how systems and creativity is different. The mind may resist seeing systems and creativity as the same. The trick to being a master integrator is being able to deconstruct to Nothing and then begin construction. From a purely deconstructed state of Nothing, Systems is Creativity and Systems is not Creativity. Both are true. When one can see this, there are an infinite number of inter-connections between Systems and Creativity. . . Yet to get to full deconstruction, one needs to let go of attachment to objective reality. If you see Systems as being objectively different than Creativity, you are in paradigm lock. 

I spent 20+ years working as a scientist. One of my major dualisms was between science and art. I saw them as separate and wanted to integrate them. However, I was locked into a construct of what science is and that art was outside of science. I thought that if I integrate science and art, I would need to re-define science is and I wasn't willing to do that. This was my biggest block. What I learned was that it isn't about redefining science and art. It's about transcending science and art. From a transcendent perspective, my old view that science is different than art is still true AND a new view that science is art emerged. Both are true. With this realization an infinite number of interconnections appear. Everywhere. . . .

Yet this didn't happen in one jump. It was a process. If I could give my previous self one piece of advice it would be that Science is the same as Art does not mean I have to reject that Science is totally different than Art. You said that Systems is on one hand and Creativity is on the other hand. It is true that your two hands are different, yet it is also true that your two hands are the same YOU. Your two hands are different, the same and have an infinite number of connections. (Leo did a great video on this called "Sameness vs. Difference").  

To start the process, I tried to have a blank slate and see the art in science and the science in art. Any inter-connections. I started hanging out with artists and observed them from a scientists perspective. I began seeing the science in their artwork. As I performed science in the lab I started seeing the art. I read the book "How to think like Leonardo DaVinci" and I started to realize DaVinci was both an artist and scientist. I spent a lot of time in nature and started seeing the inter-connections between science and art. At times I did moderate doses of psychedelics which dissolved the duality and allowed space for inter-connections. . . Eventually, the duality between science and art totally collapsed: science IS art . Yet this did not invalidate the duality that science is not art. This opened up infinite inter-connections that integrates the duality with the nonduality. At first, it took effort to come up with ideas to integrate science and art. Now integrative ideas happen effortlessly. . . Einstein is Mozart

The other thing I learned is that it is more than intellectual. My mind was heavily tilted toward intellect, logic, science, evidence, analysis and concepts. Part of the integration process was to learn new modes of being: Intuition, Empathy, Feeling, Knowing, Being and Creativity entered the picture and became just as important as intellect. For example, I would intellectualize about what creativity is and created concepts about of creativity. Yet then I became creativity - I knew creativity through Intuition and Beingneess in nonverbal, non-intellectual ways. 

[TheAvatarState]

@randomguy123 What if you used creativity and systems thinking to solve your problem? 

[randomguy123]

@Nahm@Serotoninluv Thanks for the replies. I'm afraid I haven't done my homework, I should go and watch that sameness vs difference episode. I was coming at this from the superficial perspective of trying to figure out how I could best approach some of things I want to sort out in my life (e.g. getting a job, fixing my working schedule and habits, etc.). Having struggled for quite some time, trying to rid myself of the stuff I did not want in my life, I thought the creative approach, where I would create what I actually wanted, might be superior here. The idea of integration is maybe not a very good term as science and art can blend quite nicely and I wasn't really looking at this from a perspective of non-duality. Just thinking about what approach I could best adopt to move forward and commit to for a while, whilst I figure things out. Sort of like a framework, like oldschool Actualized.org was. That being said, the replies were very insightful, Thanks.

 

@TheAvatarState Haha good one, I'll think about it.

Edited October 26, 2019 by randomguy123

[Nahm]

@randomguy123 Actually, we’re all on the same page here. Read it again, without deflection. 

[Forestluv]

@randomguy123 This can apply to your life as well. We could see our lives as a balance between analysis and creativity. How do we analyze our life? How do we create our lives? When you contemplate getting a job, fixing work schedule and habits, doesn’t this involve both analysis and creativity? How might you balance/integrate analysis and creativity together when addressing these life issues? . . . Sometimes it may feel like there is too much analysis happening and more creativity is needed. Other times the opposite. As we observe ourselves engaging in analysis mode and creative mode a deeper understanding will be revealed. Deeper than theoretical constructs of what analysis and creativity is. Because we are being creativity and analysis. When we are actually being creativity, a realization may arise: so that’s what creativity IS. The ISness of creation, rather than an intellectual construct. . . . Further, we may realize the creativity in analysis and the analysis in creativity.

[randomguy123]

@Nahm Ok, I sort of understand where you're coming from. Are you equating creativity with the zoomed out perspective?

 

@Serotoninluv Ok, I think I understand you. So what I was doing was trying to fix my map to match the territory as good as possible. It remains a map of course, but one that is better suited to describe the territory underneath. Of course at even the slightest increase in consciousness, such a map might become unnecessary as the idea is no longer accurate. Would that be a good approach?

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, randomguy123 said:

@Serotoninluv Ok, I think I understand you. So what I was doing was trying to fix my map to match the territory as good as possible. It remains a map of course, but one that is better suited to describe the territory underneath. Of course at even the slightest increase in consciousness, such a map might become unnecessary as the idea is no longer accurate. Would that be a good approach?

Sure, that's another way to look at it. We could consider the map to be a construct to help navigate the territory. A map can be an analytical description of the territory that can help ground us so we aren't aimlessly wandering around. Maps come in handy. And it's useful to continually update our maps. . . . Other times, it's nice to put the map aside and go with the flow for a while. 

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, randomguy123 said:

Ok, I sort of understand where you're coming from. Are you equating creativity with the zoomed out perspective?

It was more in the vein of loosing up your perspective, seeing that you are the ‘connector’ of creative & analytical, if you will. No, I wouldn’t equate creativity to anything, more so everything. There are people who go on vacation, and after a day or so, feel a lot more relaxed, lighter, light hearted, energized, zest for life returns - and in that feeling, ideas flow more readily, creativity abounds relative to the more limited contracted state of “at work“. I’m suggesting this zooming in & out is not a product of where one is, or what one is doing, but that one can themself zoom in & out. It might be helpful in more of an exercise sense. An example might be, zoom out and new creative idea flow, zoom in and creative way to apply them flow. Zoom ‘out of the head and into the room’ and an outside the box idea arises, zoom in on a pencil on the desk, and a new creative application for an old thing, or a creative way of combining two things into, etc, arises. I’m not doing a great job explaining this, sorry, but the point is to discover you can “zoom in & out” in a huge way, and you can do this at will by letting go and shifting, trying out (for now) many ways of perceiving. 

[allislove]

10 hours ago, Nahm said:

It was more in the vein of loosing up your perspective, seeing that you are the ‘connector’ of creative & analytical, if you will. No, I wouldn’t equate creativity to anything, more so everything. There are people who go on vacation, and after a day or so, feel a lot more relaxed, lighter, light hearted, energized, zest for life returns - and in that feeling, ideas flow more readily, creativity abounds relative to the more limited contracted state of “at work“. I’m suggesting this zooming in & out is not a product of where one is, or what one is doing, but that one can themself zoom in & out. It might be helpful in more of an exercise sense. An example might be, zoom out and new creative idea flow, zoom in and creative way to apply them flow. Zoom ‘out of the head and into the room’ and an outside the box idea arises, zoom in on a pencil on the desk, and a new creative application for an old thing, or a creative way of combining two things into, etc, arises. I’m not doing a great job explaining this, sorry, but the point is to discover you can “zoom in & out” in a huge way, and you can do this at will by letting go and shifting, trying out (for now) many ways of perceiving. 

@Nahm Once on LSD I zoomed in chamomile. You know what I saw there? The whole world!  

[Freedomesong]

There are some really bright, well thought out people here. Thank you!

[randomguy123]

@Nahm@SerotoninluvThansk for the replies guys, I'm starting to get it.