KNOWING vs knowing in the dream

[SoonHei]

in this waking state I am aware of my true-state and that unfolds this waking state in accordance to that understanding. anger, sadness is still there, but much, much less. and whenever it does arise, the returning back to the true-state ends that before it explodes anywhere.

now, this being aware of my true-state does not translate into my dreams (sleeping dreams)...

such that, though i am aware of my true-state in this waking state, when i got to sleep at night. there is a discontinuity... if i happen to be in the middle of a snowstorm and building an igloo... there will not be the knowing that just moments before i was on my bed trying to sleep...

 

so this leads me to ask this question, the fact that i am aware of my true-state in this waking state, and after each night's sleep, i wake up in this reality with that understanding... is it just that i am aware in this dream-reality... and not in TRUTH?

am I deluding myself?

 

at the same time, there will not be any difference between SoonHei vs My true-self being aware of my true self. how can one disern that one is not deluding themself... that SoonHei is just swapping the human mask with the true-self mask... because if it were really the true-self aware of the true-self... then forgetfulness would not be the case as it is in my dreams... i am not lucid, that I am dreaming... 

i am aware this waking state is none other than a dream... actually there is no difference between this vs my "dreams at night" from the absolute view... 

 

so is that the case? once there is TRUE KNOWING. is it total - such that one remains aware going from waking dream to sleeping dreams at night back to the waking dream and so on... ?

i think there is a topic about that posted recently as well where duality between dream vs reality collapses... to me this is the case as well, but it is a knowing/understanding... not sure what a FELT KNOWING of this would be... that would be adding a layer there which may not even need to be added...

[SoonHei]

@Leo Gura @Eu Sint @Nahm @Koyaanisqatsi @Serotoninluv

[zeroISinfinity]

@SoonHei Want Absolute answer? You never did have human mask on. 

True state, State of Pure Conciousness is Infinite Love actually but there would be no you. 

When Leo talks about purification he literally means removal of All beleifs ideas and so on you have about yourself and others Reality, dreams and so on. What is left when actual ONE remains is state of Union with God and returning back to home which  you never left. Surelly is something. You Will not know you Will Be. Or lets say you are already full whole knowing and not knowing both collapse into Being. 

It is way to much Love, way to much. Craving Peace sometimes. Crying for it. 

[SoonHei]

@zeroISinfinity yes. that's what i mean by KNOWING... the BEING of it. beyond the knowing that all happens as it should... that there is no do-er. it is also seen that the thought "i did this or that... or I decided to move my hand.. or I decided to write this thread" is ALWAYS AFTER the deed is done. right when it is being done. there is no ME doing it.

i guess i'm looping in on myself here... the thought wanting the liberation... or that state where i remain fixated in that knowing while the transition between waking/dreaming occurs...

 

What is left when actual ONE remains is state of Union with God and returning back to home which  you never left. 
= 
i searched for God and found only myself. i searched for myself and found only God

 

 

 

[zeroISinfinity]

HeartSelf =God Self 

 Every seeming change inside Conciousness lets say is Effortless. That's how Perfect God is. Life is that easy. 

Separated doer Creates All fears and All resistance.Once stories are abandoned Light Will shine so strongly. Yeah Super Nova such a force. 

While I typed this, Heart orgasm and Leo missed that. It's different then Cosmic one. 

How you live with this no idea, have no idea. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by zeroISinfinity

[SoonHei]

@zeroISinfinity from what you describe. it seems it is a phenomena? so IT too shall pass?

[Forestluv]

@SoonHei You have created a distinction/duality between "waking state" and "dream state". Within your construct: "Waking state" = awareness of "true state". You've now added in a second and third dualities (awareness vs. unawareness and true state vs. false state). Further dualities are added with "true self vs. false self" and "knowing vs. unknowing". There are lots of inter-related dualities to deconstruct. For example, your "aware vs. unaware" duality overlaps with the "knowing vs. unknowing" duality. 

To me, there are a lot of tangles that can be deconstructed to aware vs. unaware. Imo, the waking vs. dream part is a distraction. Someone can be in a waking state daydreaming and unaware. Someone can be in a waking state and drunk and unaware. It boils down to aware vs unaware. I would take a closer inspection of this duality. Who/What is aware/not knowing? Who is aware/knowing. What thing is being awared? What thing is known? . . . From the OP, it looks like you might say awareness of the "true self", yet this sets up another duality. What is the "true self" vs. the "false self".

These dualities have practical purpose. A human won't survive without making distinctions between things like waking life and dreaming life. As well, there are realizations of self vs. Self that few humans realize. . . You are asking some advanced questions which boil down to this:

2 hours ago, SoonHei said:

once there is TRUE KNOWING. is it total - such that one remains aware

What is "True Knowing" vs. "False Knowing"? This gets into ineffable zones. As well, remains aware adds in a timeline. "Remains" requires a construct of past, present and future. This is one of the things humans commonly construct and chase. They create a construct of "awareness/enlightenment/awakening", believe that state/ISness can become permanent and desire/chase that permanence. This has practical purpose at the human level, yet it opens up another can of worms, because there is another dual construct to deconstruct. For example, many people see Eckhart Tolle as permanently enlightened. Yet what does that mean? This can vary. One might say he has transcended the personality and no longer has egoic impulses. Yet what if a single self-centered thought appeared in his mind? Would that invalidate his "permanent awareness of knowing"? Would he need to start the clock over?  . . . Others may say that enlightenment is the permanent transcendence that is aware of all happenings. Yet what if there is a nano-second in which Eckhart doesn't have transcendent awareness of all happenings? Would we restart the clock on Eckhart's enlightenment streak? What about when he is asleep? . . . Others may say that at the human level, there is a process of "forgetting" and "remembering", yet the transcendent awareness is eternally present and accessible, even when the human "forgets". Yet at the human level, what is an acceptable amount of "forgetting"? 

To me, it looks like you are digging into some deep trans-human zones transcendent of human experience, perception and construction. In the context of human stages, one generally transcends the personality construct first and recognizes that the entire personal story is simply appearances, Now. Identification/attachment to personality dissolves. Yet even after transcending the personality construct, there is still the human construct. A being can have trans-personal awareness, yet still be identified/attached to being an impersonal human. Transcending humanness goes beyond theory, because all theory is a human construct. . . Trans-human essence trying to describe itself through human words often sounds wacky and nonsensical. For example: "There is nothing you can see that is not a flower; there is nothing you can think that is not the moon" - Matsuo Basho

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, SoonHei said:

it is also seen that the thought "i did this or that... or I decided to move my hand.. or I decided to write this thread" is ALWAYS AFTER the deed is done. right when it is being done. there is no ME doing it.

Why would sleep be any different?

 

What is your direct experience of sleeping, in comparison to your direct experience of someone sleeping? 

?

What is this dream made of?

??

“that would be adding a layer there which may not even need to be added...”

Don’t forget you are the sneakiest being which has ever been. 

???

[SoonHei]

@Serotoninluv thank you for showing me once again my inability to accept the ordinary and casual dull boring finale of it... and you're right. the whole obsession of WHATS NEXT and trying to see and arrive at the station I have heard of.... all the while the person itself is still latching on...

 

@Nahm can't blame me then can you? i wouldn't be the most sneakiest if i don't sneak past myself every once in a while...

 

 

35 minutes ago, Nahm said:

“that would be adding a layer there which may not even need to be added...”

2 hours ago, SoonHei said:

i guess i'm looping in on myself here... the thought wanting the liberation...

 

 

 

/end.

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

@Serotoninluv ordinary and casual dull boring finale of it. . . the whole obsession of WHATS NEXT and trying to see and arrive at the station 

ordinary, casual, dull, boring finale = extraordinary, intriguing, fascinating beginning. The journey itself is home. 

Welcome to rarefied air. . . Some great exploration is available. 

[SoonHei]

THE EYE OF THE HURRICANE

[Eu Sint]

I extracted this paragraph for you ,from Ramana Maharishi book.You may have read this before or maybe not, but if you still ask, that means you haven't understood it yet, and maybe it's time to pay more attention to what it says.He speaks in simple words for everyone's meaning. Maybe it's time to put aside all these explanations, which are more complicated and which in my opinion do nothing but deepen you through the depths of the  maze mind.Pay attention to all the beliefs you build, even if they are spiritual .All that’s are constructed beliefs: I am Love, I am Conciousness, I am God, I am Enlightened, , etc. Everything you add after I am , you’re not.You are not this or that even you had have all insights which Leo spoke to us.You are so pure that not all languages in the world put it together can be explained. You cannot explain yourself .to yourself.The only way is through direct experience.

“”Q: Is one nearer  to pure consciousness in deep sleep than in  the waking state?    A:  The sleep,dream and waking states are mere phenomena appearing on the Self which  is itself stationary. It  is also a state of simple awareness. Can anyone remain away from the Self at any moment ? This question can arise only if that were possible. 

Q: Is it not often said that one is  nearer pure consciousness in deep sleep than in the waking state?     A: The question may as well be `Am I nearer to myself in my sleep than in my waking state?' The Self is pure consciousness. No  one can ever be  away from the Self. The question is possible only if there is duality. But there is no duality in the state of  pure consciousness. The same person sleeps, dreams  and wakes up. The waking state is considered to be full of beautiful and interesting things. The absence of such experience makes one say that  the sleep state is dull. Before we proceed further let us make this  point clear. Do you not admit that you exist in your sleep?       Q: Yes, I do.     A: You are the same person that  is now awake. Is it not so?        Q: Yes.      A: So there is a continuity in the sleep and the waking states. What is that continuity ? It is only the state of pure being. There is a difference in the two states. What is that difference? The incidents, namely, the body, the  world and objects appear in the waking state but they disappear in sleep.     Q: But I am not aware in my sleep.     A: True, there is no awareness of  the body or of the world. But you must exist in your  sleep in order to say  now `I was not aware in my sleep'. Who says so now ? It  is the wakeful person. The sleeper cannot say so. That is to say, the  individual who is  now identifying the Self with the body says that  such awareness did not exist in sleep. Because you identify yourself with the body, you see the world around you and say that the waking  state is filled with beautiful and interesting things. The sleep state appears dull because you were not there as an individual and therefore these things were not. But what is the fact? There is the continuity of  being in all the three states, but no continuity of the individual and the objects.    Q: Yes.      A: That which is continuous is also enduring, that is permanent. That which is discontinuous is transitory.     Q: Yes.     A: Therefore the state of  being is permanent and the body and the world are not. They are fleeting phenomena passing on the screen of being-consciousness which  is eternal and stationary.     Q:  Relatively speaking, is not the sleep state nearer to pure  Consciousness than  the waking state ?      A: Yes, in this sense: when passing from sleep to waking the `I'thought [individual self] must start and the mind must come into play. Then thoughts arise and the functions of the body come into operation. All these together make  us say that we are awake. The absence of all this evolution is  the characteristic of sleep and therefore it is nearer to pure consciousness than the waking state. But one should not therefore desire  to be always in sleep. In the first place it is impossible, for it will necessarily alternate with the other states. Secondly it cannot be the state of bliss in which the jnani is,  for his state is permanent and not alternating. Moreover, the sleep state is not recognized to  be one of awareness by people, but the sage is always aware. Thus  the sleep state differs from the state in which the sage is established. Still more, the sleep state is  free from thoughts and their impression on the individual. It cannot be altered by one's will because effort is impossible in  that condition. Although nearer to pure consciousness, it is not fit  for efforts to realize the Self. “”””?

 

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

THE EYE OF THE HURRICANE

During my upbringing, we had a major hurricane about once every three years. So it was a big, exciting event for us kids. During the initial hurricane surge, we would be inside creating boats out of paper, cardboard, plastic, wood scraps, glue, staples etc. Then during the eye of the hurricane our parents would let us play outside. We would run to the gutters, which were rapidly flowing with water - like a thin river with rapids. We would have boat races. It was an incredible dream world. . . After a while parents could be heard screaming for the kids to come home, because the eye of the storm had ended and the back half of the hurricane was entering. It was like our parents were trying to wake us up from and dream and we didn't want to wake up. Fun times. 

[SoonHei]

22 minutes ago, Eu Sint said:

Secondly it cannot be the state of bliss in which the jnani is,  for his state is permanent and not alternating. Moreover, the sleep state is not recognized to  be one of awareness by people, but the sage is always aware. Thus  the sleep state differs from the state in which the sage is established.

yes. this part here... ^^^

this is what led me to start this thread... the state in which the sage is established... 

thank you @Eu Sint

yes. it is understood. and the one wanting to be in that state is seen. ?

 

@Serotoninluv damn. and i thought hurricane meant devastation only. sounds like fun times! weather, storms etc were always my fascination as a kid. have played in fair bit of rain and storms myself ...

and wow. just talking about this, had memories flash about all those times when playing in the rain was a thing! imagination as a kid is on some next level indeed. good times... fun times indeed. 

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

To become lucid during sleeping dreams more is necessary, like critical state-testing during the day. I am currently practicing this. This topic is something that is really on my mind as I try to master lucid dreaming.

There is a Tibetan Buddhist technique "The Power of Resolution technique" that involves continuity of consciousness (similar to what you are describing) realizing that the waking dream and the sleeping dream are made out of the same substance 'of the mind', and this is to make you more aware during your sleeping dreams. More is required though such as:

1) Having a proficient dream recall, meaning you can remember at least one dream upon waking every night.

2) It's recommended to get a dream journal when upon waking you immediately write down your dreams and identify your "dream signs" (meaning things your rational mind would use to discern that you are dreaming. Ex: I was with my friends from high school who I have not seen in years, or I was flying, ect) Do this for a couple weeks to when you identify your recurrent dream signs. One of mine is being in public places with people I don't normally interact with. 

3) Practice critical state-testing every time you are in a situation similar to a dream sign or heightened emotional state. So for me when in public social situations I would test by state. A state test is not just saying "of course I am awake" but doing something such as looking at a piece of writing, looking away, and then looking back to see if the words are still arranged the same way. If you are dreaming the words are not likely to stay consistent. Another test is attempting to fly (jumping and seeing if you can float instead of coming back down) or trying to push your finger through your hand. 

4) And then finally doing an induction technique in the middle of the night before your REM cycle, such as MILD (mnemonic induced lucid dreaming) which is basically making a resolution you will become conscious you are dreaming when you fall asleep and setting an intention about what you want to do in your lucid dream.

For more on this I would check out the book "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming" by Stephen Laberge. Its one of the most interesting and mind expanding books I have read. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by TrynaBeTurquoise

[Nahm]

Questions should be investigated, answers should be known, as questions naturally arise from the feeling of dissatisfaction, however nuanced and slight.