Immigration - Your Opinion

[justinecactus]

Hi everyone

I do believe everyone has the right to live happy and freely - doesn't matter when they are from. And the actual context of worldwide violence and immigration is very sad.

I understand the impact of colonization and how we (as European) had (and still have) a huge negative impact but I also understand the difficulty to welcome and integrate migrants in a very close minded country (like France).

 

So I am wondering... 

How can we integrate people from a different stage of the spiral dynamic ?

How can you spread objectivity to very racist people ?

 

As an example :

How can you debate and argue properly with someone who does not understand the global context of immigration and who's lacking of compassion and open-mindness ?

 

I am having hard time dealing with so much negativity

Thanks for helping

[Hansu]

On 20.10.2019 at 3:52 PM, justinecactus said:

How can you debate and argue properly with someone who does not understand the global context of immigration and who's lacking of compassion and open-mindness ?

You can start by trying to understand these people better. They just might be more intelligent and open minded than you think.

For example, the words immigration and asylum seeker have vast difference in spoken language when speaking with a racist, and you need to understand this difference if you want your debate to last longer than 10 sentences. Many racists dont have probelm with immigrants, but asylum seekers. In fact, many racists are fucking stoked on immigrants who bring them new services, but even this is rarely understood by many anti-nazis who seem to think that racists are only against skin colour. Lol.

EDIT2: After learning more about cultural appropriation, I found that my claim about anti-nazis not understanding how its not only about the race to be hilariously ironic. However, my claim stands as its based on my first experience.

A racist might already be thinking objectively! He is fucking pissed that he is giving out his hand to an asylum seeker and then he reads news about new rape gangs developing in his ex-peaceful country. What do you think happens when you then come and tell him he is a close minded piece of shit? That wont make him understand the big picture! That'll just close him up even more and make him even more racist!

As someone who has seen both sides of the immigration debators, I usually dont participate in these debates because neither sides seem to understand one another so the debate always ends up with one of the side creating straw mans and no, its not always the so called "nazis". I can already feel how someone out there behind a monitor just pulled a huge pea up his/her nose because I wrote how a racist might actually be open minded but uneducated. They can be, I know because that was me 5 years ago.

I have about 5 years of experience of participating in these debates on both sides. They are seedless, they rarely create any developing communication and always end in a straw man.

My message here is negative and might feel like finger pointing, but it is not meant to be accusing of anyone of anything. Please dont take it personally

Edit: If there is any question about the perspective of these racists, you can ask me. Sadly I have good understanding of how they see the world.

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Hansu

[CreamCat]

I'd like to see countries split up into hundreds of small cities. I want to see city states. City states will increase competition among governments. If there is more competition among governments, immigration will become better. Competition is a safety valve against collective devilry.

I want hierarchies to become a lot shallower than they are now. I also want religions to become smaller so that they compete with each other. Islam and christianity became too big.

Shallower hierarchies also create more of independent thinkers.

Edited October 22, 2019 by CreamCat

[RichardY]

Have the population suit the local environment. Agrarianism, governed by a collection of courts(A Kritarchy, No statutory laws). Cities more for science parks and intense R&R. If the seas are being swept clean of fish, obviously something is majorly wrong.

Was looking at Agroforestry and a video with Sadhguru came up, promoting it. But if you look at the amount of arable land per person, it's either that or mass death and ecological collapse. Being a more complex system it would also include things like logging which is heavily regulated, which obviously your average peasant farmer, or westerner would need a team of lawyers to understand.

Elites benefit from corruption in networking affects, compounded by immigration into a more crowded pool. The worlds top 10 Billionaires, are all heavily into the networking affect.

If the USA and Australia were all frontier country, immigration there would be less of a concern.

Edited October 22, 2019 by RichardY

[tenta]

If you aren't okay with being born in a country that is much worse than the US, would you want legal immigration and immigration in general to be very strict, tyrannical and difficult? Or would you want immigration to be easier? It's not a fair system unless you are okay with being born in any place, immigration being easier would by definition make it more fair because it gives people the opportunity to actually improve their lives despite being born in a place that is much worse than the US which was out of their control. You could say you'd kill for your child - so why condemn people doing a minor offense for their children? This isn't to say the worst of the people that other countries are bringing to the US should be let in, but why make legal immigration needlessly difficult or punish people who'd get a job easily and be good citizens if they entered the US

Edited October 26, 2019 by tenta

[lysagrey93]

I personally have no problems when it comes to immigration especially since I have immigrated from India not that long ago. I always wanted to move to the states t be honest, ever since I was a little kid but I never really knew how. I grew up, studied really hard and worked my a** off and became one of the best in my field (I am a coder). I recently got a job opportunity in the Silicone Valley though and finally got a tangible possibility for me to move to the states. As soon as I talked with the company and the HR department I decided to look for a US lawyer since I felt like they would know more since they live there and know the laws a lot better. I basically googled h1b visa lawyer Los Angeles and was surprised at how many options there were. I settled on a firm that takes on a lot of immigration cases and I have not pulled the short straw for sure. I had an amazing lawyer that really helped me a lot and I got my visa really fast. I think that if you guys are in looks for a lawyer you should check these guys out.  

Edited December 6, 2020 by lysagrey93

[Preety_India]

Immigration always helps a country grow and get enriched. 

I never understood the idea of restricting people from coming to a place. That sounds very unwelcoming especially for places with wealth and resources. 

Give a chance to those who could not have better lives in their countries because of their bad political regimes and authoritarian governments. Those people probably don't have much option than to relocate. 

Not many people immigrate, in fact most people don't have the courage to move to another country.

So people who want to move across borders need help and support. 

Saying phrases like "go back to your country" really hurts global unity. 

The whole anti immigration sentiment is just beyond me. How heartless. 

 

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, Preety_India said:

Immigration always helps a country grow and get enriched. 

I never understood the idea of restricting people from coming to a place. That sounds very unwelcoming especially for places with wealth and resources. 

Give a chance to those who could not have better lives in their countries because of their bad political regimes and authoritarian governments. Those people probably don't have much option than to relocate. 

Not many people immigrate, in fact most people don't have the courage to move to another country.

So people who want to move across borders need help and support. 

Saying phrases like "go back to your country" really hurts global unity. 

The whole anti immigration sentiment is just beyond me. How heartless. 

 

let's say there is a small country like sweden (10million people) which wasn't built on immigration like lets say the us or australia.

let's say that country is very progressive on womens rights, has a very good social system from tax payers money and so on and so on.

let's say 1 billion people of people from third world countries would like to go there

let's say mostly men who don't care much about womens rights, come from extremely patriarchal, low spiral survivalist societies etc. make their way to sweden.

you don't see how this could cause some huge issues and problems?

Edited December 7, 2020 by PurpleTree

[Preety_India]

@PurpleTree yes I understand those problems. 

But those people will never have the opportunity to change unless they come in close contact with an advanced community under an advanced government. 

The real problem here is not immigration but integration and integration can only happen after generations of mixing.