Some Questions About Enlightenment.

[tomasCZ]

Hello Leo and Actualized.org!

I changed enormously in the last year. You are giving me really deep insights into my life. Thank you Leo.

In the last few weeks I got several enlightenment experiences. It was beautiful and I cried by happiness. At the same time it is scary how our reality is not what we think. My mind is now going crazy. I used to be a strictly scientific person. I have many questions.

1. Is it possible to be in that state whole day/night?

2. Now one philosophical. Why should we seek that state? Isn't it just a mental masturbation? Maybe it is our natural state, maybe not. I know I'm attached to my own thinking. I try to understand it from ego point of view. I know you said that ego is the problem, but what if it isn't? Isn't the ego part of the human being? Isn't the ego what separates us from anything else? Maybe it is component of the nature. Why it is bad to have one? Can we train our ego to be in synergy with our being?

3. In that state everything is clear, beautiful, not need anything, etc. But I (ego) want to have a girlfriend, family, passive income, travel the World, and realize my Life Purpose. Why to do anything of that? Now everything seems pretty worthless. My mind map is broken now. My mind is really crazy monkey :-)

4. Why this state ends? I can recognize "the click" and few seconds/minutes when I'm in, but not when I'm out. Maybe it is time when I start thinking again.

5. It would be interesting if you make video on different states of mind. Like unconscious, awaken, lucid dreaming, in flow, sleeping, BEING, monkey watching TV, maybe levels of consciousness, ...

6. Can you recommend me some video or book to study? Or should I rather do more meditation/introspection? I probably should watch all latest videos and videos about enlightenment.

 

Tom

[cetus]

@tomasCZ See the mind for what it is-mind. Than use the mind as a master craftsman uses a tool. Learn to trust what is inside and everything will manifest on it's own.  When a girl comes into your life (or anything), she will come into your life as if it has already been written.  Let go and trust that everything is unfolding in it's own time. I understand this doesn't answer your questions. You already have.

[charlie2dogs]

1 hour ago, tomasCZ said:

Hello Leo and Actualized.org!

I changed enormously in the last year. You are giving me really deep insights into my life. Thank you Leo.

In the last few weeks I got several enlightenment experiences. It was beautiful and I cried by happiness. At the same time it is scary how our reality is not what we think. My mind is now going crazy. I used to be a strictly scientific person. I have many questions.

1. Is it possible to be in that state whole day/night?

2. Now one philosophical. Why should we seek that state? Isn't it just a mental masturbation? Maybe it is our natural state, maybe not. I know I'm attached to my own thinking. I try to understand it from ego point of view. I know you said that ego is the problem, but what if it isn't? Isn't the ego part of the human being? Isn't the ego what separates us from anything else? Maybe it is component of the nature. Why it is bad to have one? Can we train our ego to be in synergy with our being?

3. In that state everything is clear, beautiful, not need anything, etc. But I (ego) want to have a girlfriend, family, passive income, travel the World, and realize my Life Purpose. Why to do anything of that? Now everything seems pretty worthless. My mind map is broken now. My mind is really crazy monkey :-)

4. Why this state ends? I can recognize "the click" and few seconds/minutes when I'm in, but not when I'm out. Maybe it is time when I start thinking again.

5. It would be interesting if you make video on different states of mind. Like unconscious, awaken, lucid dreaming, in flow, sleeping, BEING, monkey watching TV, maybe levels of consciousness, ...

6. Can you recommend me some video or book to study? Or should I rather do more meditation/introspection? I probably should watch all latest videos and videos about enlightenment.

 

Tom

It is normal for the human being to have moments of oneness with its core.  But most are never aware of that, few are able to hold that state of being for any length of time.  It appears by your text that you may have experienced some of these moments, but you are now speaking as the human identity,  the identity, ego, and desires of the flesh are resisting this experience.  Your idea that every thing seems pretty worthless and your mind going crazy are signs that you are functioning as the identity.  the thought process when consciousness is functioning as the identity will always create issues, problems, consequences.

In reality the ego is all the programing, false belief system that has been created and the desires of the flesh that has taken root within your consciousness.  At present it is making all your choices for you, you only think you have a choice.  These things will only allow you to hear certain things, they will cause you to reject what doesn't fit your belief system and programing.

Few understand that a cleansing of the consciousness has to occur in order to be liberated from those things that are now controlling everything, you do, say, think, feel and even see.

The cleansing of the consciousness cannot be done while functioning as the human identity. At some point you may have a great enough desire to be liberated from those things that bind you, or you will remain and function as the human identity as it allows more and more to become rooted in consciousness that will eventually have to be over come.  What takes root in consciousness is actually quantum memory, it doesn't cease to exist when the body dies,  no one can forgive it, or erase it for you, functioning as a being of consciousness will begin to cleanse the consciousness,  that will bring change for the identity.

 

[Mistico]

Hello Tom, first of all, congrats on making this powerful shift in your life. I'm not really so long grassping the nature of enlightment and yet I think I could share some insights with you.

1- Well, I'd say you'll know the answer on your own when the answer will become relevant for you.

2- Isn't a mental masturbation? You can't know because that's not your state now, ask yourself otherwise, might it be a mental flagelation your current state of mind? I'd rather ask myself. You can't understand enlightenment through ego but you do can understand ego through enlightenment. Ego is not the problem, in fact, the arising of the ego was the last evolution of the conciousness state, when an human being was first able to recongnize his face on the water. The problem is your identification with it, the problem is to mistake the map ( your ego ) for the territory ( your true self).

3- There's no contradiction in wanting something, the difference is that now you don't want a girlfriend, travel the world, etc you need it to be happy, that's why this kind of achivements won't make you fullfilled cause you won't solve the problem of neediness by feeding your neediness. Try to understand why you want these things maybe you don't want them or have to find a true egoless reason.

4- This state ends cause you fall asleep again. You leave the present moment, you can know when you are out because you start feeling pain inside and your thoughts take over your attention.

Well, I write to you as though I was writing to myself, that was just how I see things now, thanks for sharing your thoughts and forgive me for my level of English.

 

[vizual]

I'll let you know my thoughts on your questions

1. Enlightenment isn't really a state. It's the true being which has always been there, even when you are wrapped in your ego the most, the pure consciousness is still there looming in the background. But yes, one can be aligned with pure being while being awake and asleep all times.

2. No one should seek that state per se. But it's the end of all suffering and all, for most people there comes a time in their lives they are tired of the same loop of suffering/indulging over and over again. And it makes life so much more enjoyable being one with 'being' that there isn't really a reason not to become 'enlightened'.

I think you are confusing thinking with ego. If you're enlightened does not mean you can't think anymore, yes it's our pragmatic use of symbols that differentiate us with wild animals, but a state of no mind does not mean there can't be any thoughts. It's just that the 'voice' is not your voice anymore. Thoughts just become thoughts, like the car you drive in is the car you drive in. You are not your car. And having an ego is not necessarily a bad thing, nothing is bad in the eyes of truth. It's just that being heavily attached to ego has the side effect of suffering, there's no escaping it.

3. When one becomes enlightened there isn't a 'you' anymore that wants anything. 'You' become nothingness/awareness/consciousness who is one the background being everything that comes into the awareness. That does not mean that the character you currently identify yourself as becomes a hermit that meditates all day in a cave. It just means that you release total control of the character and let it do what it is supposed to do. Whatever the outcome. there will be happiness guaranteed. Maybe the character becomes a successful businessman/yogi/artist/garbageman, it's not up for anyone to decide on this plane of reality.

Really, there is no ultimate truth to 'Life purpose'. The purpose of life is just living it and trying to wrap that in one single purpose diminishes the exploratory and spontaneous nature of life. Life should be a constant flow of adventure, peace, love, discovery etc. all wrapped into one. But when you try to define life in a purpose, suffering and unhappiness will eventually ensue.

4. Why does it end? You probably haven't made the realization yet, it's not yet complete. Keep looking, you'll get it.

[tomasCZ]

Thank you guys!

 

Thanks for your thoughts @vizual :-) really helpful

[tomasCZ]

The funny thing is that I didn't want to become enlightenment. But it sometimes happen during my meditation. I pretty much ignored all Leo's videos about enlightenment. I thought it was some stupid spiritual shit. WOW!

[cetus]

@tomasCZ

16 hours ago, tomasCZ said:

I pretty much ignored all Leo's videos about enlightenment. I thought it was some stupid spiritual shit. WOW!

@tomasCZ  The seed was planted even though your mind was not willing to except it and suddenly everything settled in of it's own doing. The mind searching for it will never find it. It always alludes the mind. You found the key by not looking for it. That is the key.

 

[ArabiaNytes]

7 hours ago, cetus56 said:

@tomasCZ

You found the key by not looking for it. That is the key.

Exactly. You find what you're looking for when you're not looking. The secret to overcoming "ironic reversal". Frustrating as all hell but it is the true way of how it simply is.

[cetus]

1 hour ago, ArabiaNytes said:

"ironic reversal".

What a great place to hide it! Where nobody would "think" to look.

Edited May 24, 2016 by cetus56

[Mal]

@tomasCZ

Hi Tom, 

On 5/23/2016 at 1:30 PM, tomasCZ said:

1. Is it possible to be in that state whole day/night?

4. Why this state ends? I can recognize "the click" and few seconds/minutes when I'm in, but not when I'm out. Maybe it is time when I start thinking again.

Fortunately for us the transpersonal psychology field have presented a few models (in slightly varying degrees) from a collection of different schools of research who claim to have discovered that even though the "Ground of Being" is an ever-present condition, permanent access to this reality requires from us a complete cognitive transition of transcendence followed by a subsequent re-inclusion of several specific "stages" of human development.

To give you a flavour of what these stages are, one such model "Spiral Dynamics" successfully presents a detailed outline of what it looks like to have healthily navigated one's way to the very top rung of ego development - "construct aware / unitive self stage" 

This self-actualization path is a development and transformation of our conscious and unconscious language structure and meaning making.  Once a certain degree of ego-development has been achieved, the next step for the mature self-actualizer is the shift into a permanent state of transpersonal awareness - which has now become a structure because of stability of this realization.  Of course, being an integrated path the good news is that one still has access to their ego, but the difference is now the "self" has been developed as far as we currently can take it - and of course, because the ego is now directly understood to be a construct, it can be developed even further as new structures emerge via a process of continual integration of the intellect giving form and concept to spiritual truth.  This heralds in the possibility of a transformational shift for humanity as a whole as spiritual truth will have a platform to express itself and integrate itself into conventional life.  A truly "Integrally Informed" situation.

The reason you were unable to permanently reside in the "state" you experienced is because there is still work to do on the path to becoming aware of how your language structure (ego) creates your experience.

On 5/23/2016 at 1:30 PM, tomasCZ said:

5. It would be interesting if you make video on different states of mind. Like unconscious, awaken, lucid dreaming, in flow, sleeping, BEING, monkey watching TV, maybe levels of consciousness, ...

6. Can you recommend me some video or book to study? Or should I rather do more meditation/introspection? I probably should watch all latest videos and videos about enlightenment.

I recommend you get into the work of Beck & Cowan's Spiral Dynamics model here: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/204687.Spiral_Dynamics

I'll be posting on this forum soon (for anybody who is interested) detailed information based on the research findings on the cognitive processes, behaviours and values of each stage from the perspective of the individual self-actualized person, including the last personal stage.  I'm currently in the process of obtaining more information about the 3rd tier transpersonal / spiritual structure. 

-Mal 

Edited May 24, 2016 by Mal

[ArabiaNytes]

@cetus56

The best hiding spots. ?

[Leo Gura]

@tomasCZ Do not confuse enlightenment with a state or an emotional experience. Enlightenment is NOT an experience of any kind. You do not gain it or lose it.

What you've been having are consciousness-expanding experiences. But that is a far-cry from enlightenment.

So, carry-on, but don't get distracted or hoodwinked by any experiences you're having. All experiences are false! Especially the most wonderful ones. No experience lasts.

You are NOT an experience. You are NOT a state. You are NOT an emotion. You are NOT anything you can think of. If you can think of it, you can be certain you are NOT it. Because what you are cannot ever be thought.

Your mind has to completely break down here. There is no possible way to escape that. You have to choke on your own thoughts and experiences until you stop experiencing anything at all.

It's absolutely brutal. There is not going to be a "you" at the end of this process. There is not going to be anything to hold on to any more. It's an utter freedom. A total vacuum. Like your brains where sucked out through your nose and splattered on the pavement.

[cetus]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's absolutely brutal. There is not going to be a "you" at the end of this process. There is not going to be anything to hold on to any more. It's an utter freedom. A total vacuum. Like your brains where sucked out through your nose and splattered on the pavement.

@Leo Gura , is that your way of saying "Don't expect to be farting rainbows"?

[tomasCZ]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@tomasCZ Do not confuse enlightenment with a state or an emotional experience. Enlightenment is NOT an experience of any kind. You do not gain it or lose it.

What you've been having are consciousness-expanding experiences. But that is a far-cry from enlightenment.

So, carry-on, but don't get distracted or hoodwinked by any experiences you're having. All experiences are false! Especially the most wonderful ones. No experience lasts.

You are NOT an experience. You are NOT a state. You are NOT an emotion. You are NOT anything you can think of. If you can think of it, you can be certain you are NOT it. Because what you are cannot ever be thought.

Your mind has to completely break down here. There is no possible way to escape that. You have to choke on your own thoughts and experiences until you stop experiencing anything at all.

It's absolutely brutal. There is not going to be a "you" at the end of this process. There is not going to be anything to hold on to any more. It's an utter freedom. A total vacuum. Like your brains where sucked out through your nose and splattered on the pavement.

All I experienced was the present moment and all my senses were much more sensitive. I realized that I'm not my thought. All my life my thoughts controlled me. Now I can BE without thoughts or without following thoughts that randomly appears and it's still me. My ego is sad and confused that it wasn't enlightenment :-) But now I know that there is more to discover and I'm taking all enlightenment thinks that you talked about seriously. Today I signed up to Vipasanna retreat.