Where stand the joker(2019) on the political spectrum ?

[Nickyy]

8 hours ago, Aeris said:

maybe he touched turquoise while he was dancing.
 

Sadly, no. His dancing on the steps was pure beige delusion and pathos .

Very very disturbing and sad

[tenta]

8 hours ago, Nickyy said:

Sadly, no. His dancing on the steps was pure beige delusion and pathos .

Very very disturbing and sad

What is the context of the stair dance? If he was feeling liberated it could be stage green, stage orange and mostly red if he was dancing to celebrate one person dying

I'd say Jaoquin Pheonix is stage green and the movie itself is stage green,it being original and not afraid to do what other movies aren't is part of that, as well as being in the Chinese market

[Nickyy]

44 minutes ago, tenta said:

What is the context of the stair dance? If he was feeling liberated it could be stage green, stage orange and mostly red if he was dancing to celebrate one person dying

I'd say Jaoquin Pheonix is stage green and the movie itself is stage green,it being original and not afraid to do what other movies aren't is part of that, as well as being in the Chinese market

That little dance on the stairs wasn't liberation. It was pleasure at revenge, feeling superior for a moment in time. Quite disturbing and made me so aware of how little happiness Arthur had in his life that he mistook that moment for happiness. 

It was really disturbing to watch him try to attain any kind of feeling. 

I don't really know what stage it was, it's just a guess, but beige is supposed to be a person who's running out of options and getting desperate. 

Arthur is basically unemployable, which sounds like beige to red, as there aren't many reds who are able to hold down a ft job. 

[Hansu]

1 hour ago, Nickyy said:

That little dance on the stairs wasn't liberation. It was pleasure at revenge, feeling superior for a moment in time.

I doubt his dance is that simple. I read a theory online that the first dance Arthur did in the bathroom stalls (This was improvised scene, original script stated that he went there to puke)  symbolised his transcendence from Arthur to the Joker.

In my mind his dance symbolises his liberation from the societys norms and rules. I think the dance gives him a momentary relief from all the mental and physical oppression he has to suffer in daily basis. This liberation is what enables him to take the character of joker to whom we see him turn in the end, as he is finally able to drop the "Always smile" act and resist the attempts of the society to turn him into a profitable member (Thats what mental help is for. Its not developed to help people get back on their feet, mental help is invented to make money for the society). After this liberation from the mental cage we all live in for the societys sake, he turns into the Joker whom we perceive as "evil"

Anyone else agree that this thread pretty much proves that Actualized.org deserves its own art subforum?

Edited November 7, 2019 by Hansu

[tenta]

2 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

That little dance on the stairs wasn't liberation. It was pleasure at revenge, feeling superior for a moment in time. Quite disturbing and made me so aware of how little happiness Arthur had in his life that he mistook that moment for happiness. 

It was really disturbing to watch him try to attain any kind of feeling. 

I don't really know what stage it was, it's just a guess, but beige is supposed to be a person who's running out of options and getting desperate. 

Arthur is basically unemployable, which sounds like beige to red, as there aren't many reds who are able to hold down a ft job. 

 

He is beyond beige, beige is for example an infant

I'd say the dancing on the stairs is stage orange and red then

"how little happiness Arthur had in his life that he mistook that moment for happiness."

I'd say the Joker wasn't a sociopath or psychopath, just a person living life after traumatic events and in completely unfair conditions

[Nickyy]

@Hansu Ok, but liberation isn't liberation from societies norms and rules. It's liberation from the ego that is in constant resistance to everything that is.

That's why I can't put Arthur in any category except maybe beige. 

At least orange would be finding some fulfilment in being a consumer and blue looking for salvation through an external god figure.

Red would be happy trying to escape norms and rules tho, but red can look after itself pretty well even if it can't hold down a job, red generates an income via other means.

I don't know much about purple. I only know beige can be found in mentally ill people on the streets 

[Nickyy]

48 minutes ago, tenta said:

 

He is beyond beige, beige is for example an infant

I'd say the dancing on the stairs is stage orange and red then

"how little happiness Arthur had in his life that he mistook that moment for happiness."

I'd say the Joker wasn't a sociopath or psychopath, just a person living life after traumatic events and in completely unfair conditions

You don't think Arthur is an infant?

I saw a big infant when he was on the television set misinterpreting Robert de Nero's behaviour. 

[tenta]

8 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

I saw a big infant when he was on the television set misinterpreting Robert de Nero's behaviour. 

Well you're starting to sound biased against Joker

The mentality is:

"When misfortune happens to joker, it's his fault and he's just a manchild"

But when it happens to rich or famous people who mock others, it's a tragedy done by some guy who should be demonized"

[Nickyy]

1 minute ago, tenta said:

Well you're starting to sound biased against Joker

The mentality is:

"When misfortune happens to joker, it's his fault and he's just a manchild"

But when it happens to rich or famous people who mock others, it's a tragedy done by some guy who should be demonized"

I never blamed the joker. I'm only trying to tell you what I saw in the film.

I just don't see some highly developed person who's making a political statement about societies problems 

It's just not there

[tenta]

Just now, Nickyy said:

I never blamed the joker. I'm only trying to tell you what I saw in the film.

I just don't see some highly developed person who's making a political statement about societies problems 

It's just not there

Ofc not, that's why he is stage orange and also stage red

[Nickyy]

Just now, tenta said:

Ofc not, that's why he is stage orange and also stage red

Orange isn't just holding down a job, orange is creating the jobs. 

?

[tenta]

Just now, Nickyy said:

Orange isn't just holding down a job, orange is creating the jobs. 

?

So you can't be stage orange unless you create jobs?

[Nickyy]

8 minutes ago, tenta said:

So you can't be stage orange unless you create jobs?

No, but orange is at least holding down a job. I'm not sure what you're seeing if you think that there are people at stage orange who can't hold down a job holding a poster in the street ?

[Hansu]

2 hours ago, Nickyy said:

I saw a big infant when he was on the television set misinterpreting Robert de Nero's behaviour. 

Robert was using Arthur to make money. The only reason why he invited him to the show was because fans wanted to see more of Arthur. Calling Arthur the "Joker" was Roberts way of mocking Arthur. Arthur decided to own the name as his stage name in despise of Robert

All Robert wanted to do was to make profit out of Arthurs personality. He knew that he could ridicule the socially awkward Arthur and continue on the "lets laugh at the comedian who makes nobody laugh" that created great reception in the previous episode. Robert was a bully, who just like my own bullies in elementary school used his high social skills to bully the ones lower in society. Robert was clearly a narcissistic personality with ability turn the people around him against everything you said. Tl;dr: Robert was a piece of shit

 

EDIT: I was an idiot and mixed the character Murray Franklin with Robert. Sorry about that

Edited November 7, 2019 by Hansu

[Nickyy]

@Hansu I agree, the character de Nero played was bullying. Not sure I'd call him a "bully" though. When I do that I feel like I'm making a bit of a conceptual prison for myself.

[Nickyy]

13 minutes ago, Hansu said:

Robert was using Arthur to make money. The only reason why he invited him to the show was because fans wanted to see more of Arthur. Calling Arthur the "Joker" was Roberts way of mocking Arthur. Arthur decided to own the name as his stage name in despise of Robert

All Robert wanted to do was to make profit out of Arthurs personality. He knew that he could ridicule the socially awkward Arthur and continue on the "lets laugh at the comedian who makes nobody laugh" that created great reception in the previous episode. Robert was a bully, who just like my own bullies in elementary school used his high social skills to bully the ones lower in society. Robert was clearly a narcissistic personality with ability turn the people around him against everything you said. Tl;dr: Robert was a piece of shit

Your comment promoted me to remember another aspect of the film, it's got a little bit of Hollywood cheese in that everyone loves an underdog who kicks ass and gets his revenge. The writers set up the characters like this, the de Nero character obviously being the "bad guy" in Arthur's warped world. 

Maybe you and tenta identify with Arthur? A good film is designed to get you to identify with the "goodie". So job done 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Nickyy

[Hansu]

@Nickyy

Ah, I mixed the character and actor. What I wrote about Robert was meant to be said about the character TV host Murray Franklin in the movie, I have nothing against Robert de Niro who played an amazing part as the TV-host

I actually agree with the idea that the character was there just to be the bad guy for the main character to beat. I guess not all 100% of the movie can be showing middle finger to Hollywood cliche's because it wouldnt make enough money then. That said, I stand on my view that the TV-host Murray was a narcissistic man who only used Arthur for money, Arthur did not misintrept his agenda.

I can somewhat identify with Joker because I know how a person shunned by the society thinks, though luckily I got over it with rigorous study of social skills. And I can tell with the 12 year experience of being bullied that the TV-host in the movie is a textbook model for someone who uses social skills to manipulate people for his own interest and to beat the already beaten so they wont rise up.

EDIT: What do you mean by "The being the "bad guy" in Arthurs warped world"?

What warped world? There was nothing to indicate that we are only seeing the world how Arthur sees it

Edited November 7, 2019 by Hansu

[tenta]

20 minutes ago, Nickyy said:

No, but orange is at least holding down a job. I'm not sure what you're seeing if you think that there are people at stage orange who can't hold down a job holding a poster in the street ?

So a no-true-scotsman fallacy, if you get kicked out of a mosque for whatever reason are you also not stage blue?

Is him killing Robert de Nero stage red? Obviously to an extend, but not fully, joker is not stage red and he tried to make his life work and makes kids laugh - he also killed him because he ignorantly embarrassed joker on TV, from his position of privilege, against some guy who is clearly disadvantaged

[Nickyy]

15 minutes ago, tenta said:

So a no-true-scotsman fallacy, if you get kicked out of a mosque for whatever reason are you also not stage blue?

Is him killing Robert de Nero stage red? Obviously to an extend, but not fully, joker is not stage red and he tried to make his life work and makes kids laugh - he also killed him because he ignorantly embarrassed joker on TV, from his position of privilege, against some guy who is clearly disadvantaged

I think if a person can't hold down a job in society then there is a problem. I don't think that someone at stage orange would have trouble holding down a job. That's just my opinion, you may have more insight, I don't know. But I just don't think that there is anything more to the film than it being a depiction of someone who has got mental health problems. Im in danger of repeating myself here, I haven't really got much more to add to the discussion. I just feel that I saw the film accurately as it was meant to be and I didn't project any extra meaning onto it. 

I'm satisfied with that.

[Nickyy]

58 minutes ago, Hansu said:

@Nickyy

Ah, I mixed the character and actor. What I wrote about Robert was meant to be said about the character TV host Murray Franklin in the movie, I have nothing against Robert de Niro who played an amazing part as the TV-host

I actually agree with the idea that the character was there just to be the bad guy for the main character to beat. I guess not all 100% of the movie can be showing middle finger to Hollywood cliche's because it wouldnt make enough money then. That said, I stand on my view that the TV-host Murray was a narcissistic man who only used Arthur for money, Arthur did not misintrept his agenda.

I can somewhat identify with Joker because I know how a person shunned by the society thinks, though luckily I got over it with rigorous study of social skills. And I can tell with the 12 year experience of being bullied that the TV-host in the movie is a textbook model for someone who uses social skills to manipulate people for his own interest and to beat the already beaten so they wont rise up.

EDIT: What do you mean by "The being the "bad guy" in Arthurs warped world"?

What warped world? There was nothing to indicate that we are only seeing the world how Arthur sees it

I don't think there ARE bad guys. I think for people like Arthur there are indeed "bad guys" and that was how the film was framed. Lots of bad guys in a bad society who don't understand a mentally ill person.

That's not reality, that's just the view of a mentally ill person.