Spiritual Bucket List This Week - My Spiritual Life

[Preety_India]

Starting my own separate segment of spiritual bucket list for each week.  To really implement spirituality 

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Preety_India
G

[Preety_India]

Witchy items to buy 

 

Candles 

Quartz pointer crystal tower or pyramid 

Orgone pyramid. 

Crystal ball

Deodorant pocket bottles or packs. Flat black packs used as tarot or statues 

Incense burner 

Pumpkin Halloween 

Crystal grid crystals 

Feathers 

Decanter bottles 

Potion glass bottles 

 

Spell jar items 

Witchy rings 

Small spell witchy jewelry 

 

 

Tray wooden 

Artificial flowers 

Pearls

Teas 

Sea Shells 

Besom 

Cauldron 

Candle holder 

Medals and pendants. 

 

Soaps. 

Marbles 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Preety_India

[Preety_India]

This is the last. I broke up with him. 

 

Couldn't go on with it. 

Not good for my mental health. 

 

[Preety_India]

I can't deal with this relationship anymore. I'm moving on. At best I can only be a friend. 

 

 

Not anymore. I have taken too much. No happiness 

[Preety_India]

I can only be a friend to you from now on. I am not your girlfriend anymore. 

 

 

 

 

[Preety_India]

No problem. I'm not in any relationship anymore so whatever you say doesn't matter 

 

It's no longer relevant 

 

Keep wishing that I'm a bad person. 

 

I'm done with this relationship forever. I'm done with you. You are full of hate and anger. You don't love me at all. I am done dealing with your hate and your hateful attitude towards me. I am dumping you.

 

I have nothing to do with you anymore. I have put up with too much. I respect myself. I'm a self respecting person. And no self respecting woman will put up with this behavior from a guy. Find someone who has no self respect and who will be okay with it. At least I'm not. I have been shit on too much for too long. So time for me to move on in life.. 

You are hateful and judgemental and I don't need it. I need love which I don't get from you. 

I deserve way better. 

 

 

So done with this drama of 2 years dragging on. I have taken so much. Nobody will ever deal with so much. 

I forgot that last time you had sent me an inappropriate picture telling me to kill myself. 

I have to remind myself that you are the same guy. 

 

 

I don't need a guy who posts that kind of thing on social media. Who completely demonizes me publicly. 

 

You don't love me at all. You are a total phony joke

 

I can't take it. I can't deal with this relationship anymore. I'm done with all the hate thrown at me. Waste of my years. I'm not some doormat or cuck. You don't love me. I'm done with you. Have a new family. I'm not interested in you anymore. I'm done with the drama. 

 

I'm done with the relationship. It's not worth all the drama. I deserve better. I can do better. 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Preety_India

[Preety_India]

 

 

 

David Metcalfe on death and Santa muerte 

I'm happy to be joined by researcher writer David Metcalfe. We had a dozen conversations in the past year and it wasn't uncharacteristic for those conversations to last for upwards of 4 hours. We have met only once. 

I'm totally aware that you are studying Santa muerte. But I wanted to talk to you now.i come from a lineage of southern funeral directors so it's part of my upbringing. Andrew Chestnut is the leading scholar in the English language on Santa muerte. 

David - we are collaborating on skeleton Saint website. 

He is working on a second one. 

Eliot - so you guys are the Santa muerte gringos in North America. 

5.03 in 

 

7.00

 

 

..........................

 

0:00

[Music]

00:19

[Music]

00:34

[Music]

00:42

hey everybody for this podcast I'm lucky

00:45

enough to be joined by researcher writer

00:47

and multi-talented artist David Metcalfe

00:50

and a gentleman I'm lucky enough to call

00:52

a buddy we've had about a dozen

00:55

conversations in the past year and it

00:57

wasn't uncharacteristic for those

00:59

conversations to last for upwards of

01:01

four hours which my friends and family

01:04

can both testify to we've met only once

01:07

and that was for a talk at the

01:10

observatory where we hung out with

01:11

George Hanson who is a professionally

01:14

employed in parapsychology laboratories

01:17

for eight years three years at the Rhind

01:20

Research Center and five at the

01:22

psychophysical research laboratories in

01:25

Princeton New Jersey so we've been

01:28

wanting to record one of these and now

01:29

we have something to go on which is

01:31

Santa Muerte and the reason why I want

01:34

to talk about this right now is because

01:36

I was totally aware that you were

01:38

studying Santa Muerte but I didn't get

01:40

it at all until literally about seven or

01:43

eight o'clock last night which led to

01:49

hours and hours of reading and research

01:52

as well as several texts to you and then

01:55

I did a little thought experiment with

01:57

Santa Muerte which we'll talk about

01:59

later because I'm sure you did one as

02:01

well but I wanted to talk to you now

02:05

before I had time to really think about

02:07

it and draw conclusions because I

02:09

realized that's part of the magic of

02:11

Santa Muerte is how it entered

02:13

is your consciousness because we're

02:15

really going to be having a conversation

02:17

about death tonight and I come from a

02:20

lineage of southern funeral directors so

02:22

it's part of my upbringing and David had

02:26

a brilliant idea for kind of corporate

02:28

death therapy service for a CEO is

02:30

placed in a casket which was something

02:33

we talked about the second or third time

02:34

we ever talked about anything but

02:36

nevertheless the conversation tonight is

02:38

gonna be about death and specifically

02:42

Santa Muerte so David you're doing Rutt

02:45

work right now with another scholar a

02:47

very serious scholar named R Andrew

02:49

chestnut who's an author and a PhD and I

02:52

think he's a chair of Catholic studies

02:54

somewhere yeah he's a chair of Catholic

02:56

studies at Virginia Commonwealth

02:57

University so he's he's kind of a

03:03

leading scholar definitely the leading

03:05

scholar in English on Santa Muerte and

03:09

in looking at some of the the

03:11

spanish-language stuff as well I would

03:13

say that his scholarship stands up to

03:15

anything that's going on you know on the

03:17

ground in Mexico so Wow and are you guys

03:22

you guys have done an article together

03:24

on HuffPo and you're are you both

03:27

working on that website skeleton sankt

03:30

is it yeah we're we're collaborating on

03:32

the research and Andrews working on a

03:34

new book

03:36

his first book devoted to death well no

03:39

his first book but his first book on

03:40

Santa Muerte devoted to death just got

03:43

translated into Spanish and published in

03:46

Mexico City so he's now he's now working

03:51

on a second one we're kind of

03:53

collaborating on the reason that so so

03:56

you guys are like the Santa Muerte

03:59

Gringo's in North America right now yeah

04:03

it's kind of strange when I first

04:05

encountered Santa Muerte I think it was

04:07

2005 and I was actually working at a

04:11

marketing agency and was kind of given

04:13

carte blanche to just research trends

04:17

and that kind of thing to transpiring

04:18

and Santa Muerte was one of the things

04:20

that popped up because I was about when

04:23

I think the mainstream media really

04:25

caught hold of the

04:27

fact that there were people in Mexico

04:29

and coming into the United States that

04:31

you know were paying devotion to a

04:34

female Grim Reaper's which was kind of

04:38

shocking to the American media cuz it

04:40

wasn't it's interesting the way the the

04:43

devotions have kind of developed and the

04:44

traditions developed because it's been

04:46

kind of an underground tradition for

04:49

decades and it actually you know in some

04:53

ways goes back hundreds of years so when

04:57

in 2001 when Dona Keita made the first

05:00

public shrine in Tepito which is a

05:03

barrio in Mexico when she brought the

05:06

first public shrine forward the

05:07

devotional system was already you know

05:10

somewhat developed so when it reached

05:13

the US media it was kind of like the you

05:15

know this underground tradition that had

05:18

been going on in Mexico and you know

05:21

parts of LA and parts of the United

05:22

States where there was a large Latino

05:25

population that you know it was kind of

05:29

fully formed so when the the media got a

05:31

hold of it you know here's all these

05:33

people playing devotion to this Grim

05:35

Reaper figure and it kind of blew the

05:37

minds of a lot of people including

05:39

myself when I first saw the news stories

05:40

but I never thought you know a tradition

05:42

from Mexico City and some of the most

05:45

violent neighborhoods and that was going

05:48

to be something that I have an

05:49

opportunity to look into but when Andrew

05:52

did is when Andrews book got published I

05:54

jumped right on it to get an interview

05:56

with them and since I've been studying

05:58

it you know on my own we got into a good

06:01

conversation and since then we Co

06:04

presented at morbid anatomy library on a

06:08

talk of

06:09

you probably one of the first lectures

06:12

outside of Andrews on Santa Muerte and

06:16

then you know we've kind of grown into a

06:18

sort of collaborative research thing

06:21

where we you know share information on

06:23

that so it's definitely been interesting

06:26

yeah there's a bunch of places we could

06:29

go to right there but before we go there

06:31

one thing I'd like to bring up is the

06:33

only other people probably lecturing in

06:36

the United States about Santa Muerte are

06:40

law enforcement officials yeah that's

06:43

that's right that's good yeah that's a

06:45

good call

06:46

yep yeah please US Marshal Robert Del

06:52

Monte he he's been going around I think

06:56

for quite a while doing law enforcement

06:59

seminars and trying to get people aware

07:02

of Santa Muerte

07:06

you know and it's contentious too

07:08

because El Monte you know at first I saw

07:12

what I saw the information that he was

07:14

presenting and I was kind of offended by

07:16

it but with the recent Catholic

07:20

clarifications on their condemnation of

07:24

the tradition in looking and what El

07:26

Monte was saying he's unique in the fact

07:30

that he doesn't give a blanket

07:32

condemnation of all Santa Muerte

07:34

followers and actually tries as best he

07:37

can within the auspices of being a you

07:42

know fairly average you know guy and

07:45

plus being US Marshal you know he tries

07:48

to be neutral with it so it seems to me

07:52

more you know looking at it and kind of

07:54

giving him the benefit of the doubt it

07:56

seems that he's just confused over this

07:58

tradition which suddenly has become part

08:00

of his job you know to deal with what he

08:03

sees as a death cult you know coming out

08:05

of Mexico so you can imagine a u.s.

08:07

marshal in that position is probably a

08:09

bit confused and concerned you know um

08:12

compared to some of the stuff coming out

08:14

from folks like Bishop Pfeiffer who's a

08:19

bishop in Texas who just flat out says

08:23

Santa Muerte is satanic and diabolical

08:25

the stuff that El Monte stenting seems

08:28

to be a little bit more open-minded

08:31

you know within the context of what what

08:33

you can say you know being a law

08:35

enforcement official so that's that's

08:38

something I was really really curious

08:40

about because it is the situation is so

08:47

intense no matter where you look at what

08:53

anger

08:53

you look at this thing from it's

08:55

escalating it's it's really intense I

08:58

mean this situation is as hardcore as it

09:00

can get because there's this oppressive

09:02

element that's developed I mean youyou

09:04

mentioned the bishops now who are coming

09:07

out against it I saw a clip of Alex

09:10

Jones who is you know of course like

09:13

characteristically hysterical and just

09:16

saying it's diabolical folks oh it's

09:18

utterly diabolical and I think that

09:20

could like come to mind of course was

09:22

like well how many years are we away

09:24

from a representative of Santa Muerte

09:27

being on you know democracy now with Amy

09:30

Goodman and Juan Gonzales saying no no

09:32

this isn't just a narco st. folks is

09:35

this like really important part of like

09:38

contemporary religious development

09:41

that's happening right now so that was

09:43

something because there is this

09:44

oppressive like okay so before we get

09:46

into really what Santa Muerte is let's

09:49

talk about the like oppressive energies

09:53

around it because of course we have in

09:57

2009 40 or so altars to Santa Muerte was

10:02

destroyed on the Mexican border by the

10:04

Mexican government from and this is

10:06

something I heard from your colleague

10:08

how it's just the whole thing is being

10:11

ravaged you know by the bishops

10:13

government officials and that it's 40%

10:18

of the prison population but then again

10:19

from what I understand how 10 has 10

10:22

million followers so of course you're

10:24

gonna have criminal elements when you

10:26

have 10 million followers but could we

10:28

go into that can you tell me about this

10:30

this how it's being repressed from all

10:32

angles yeah I mean um yeah obviously

10:37

it's a very complicated situation when

10:40

we're talking about when we're talking

10:44

about the different groups I think one

10:45

of the things that I found is that it's

10:47

really important to step into their

10:50

shoes which funny enough is a lesson

10:53

from Santa Muerte x'd

10:54

neutrality you know because she has she

10:56

has devotees who are prison guards for

10:58

police men and so we'll take a mean

11:01

taking it from the law enforcement you

11:03

know drug cartel of narco st. Hannah

11:08

she's got devotees on both sides of the

11:11

you know kind of war and so there's the

11:16

policeman who I mean I think there's

11:18

there's one district in Mexico where the

11:21

policeman actually have patches of Santa

11:24

Muerte on their uniforms it's kind of

11:26

like a you know a protection charm unit

11:31

so it's it's not really it's not as

11:33

black and white as it may appear in the

11:35

media right and so you know every every

11:38

group that's kind of getting involved in

11:39

this on the on the end of trying to

11:39

this on the on the end of trying to

11:42

figure out what Santa Marta is and you

11:45

know either kind of sound a word of

11:48

caution or you know actively stop the

11:51

the devotions all those groups you know

11:54

you it's it's just really looked

11:56

desperately important to understand them

11:58

as well you know cuz with the police

12:01

like I said there's policemen who are

12:03

Santa Muerte devotees you know and you

12:06

see it you know one way with the police

12:07

who are trying to stop it a lot of what

12:10

they're looking at is you have a

12:12

decentralized faith tradition whose main

12:15

symbol is a grim reaper right now when

12:18

you have that situation and you also

12:21

have you know cartels who are

12:23

decapitating people skinning people

12:25

alive posting public executions on

12:29

YouTube you know I mean when you have

12:32

that kind of situation and you've got

12:34

this iconography which has no control

12:36

over it and whose basic you know element

12:39

is a symbol of death that's pretty scary

12:42

to the law enforcement and justice

12:45

officials because you know if you look

12:48

at the potentials behind that

12:50

iconography for sparing violence it's

12:52

huge you've already got situations where

12:54

there was one family who was you know

12:58

giving blood ritual by killing people in

13:00

front of their altar

13:02

you know there's rumors of something

13:05

called a blood baptism where you know

13:09

the gang member or whatever is baptized

13:11

into the the Santa Muerte devotions by

13:14

killing someone and then wearing their

13:15

skin she was you know and whether or not

13:17

that's true when you see people being

13:20

decapitated

13:21

you know by cartels and probably by

13:23

corrupt police as well when you're

13:26

living in that kind of confusion and

13:28

then suddenly you've got this like I

13:30

said decentralized faith tradition whose

13:33

main figure is a figure of death that

13:37

causes some concern and alarm oh you

13:46

know and so from that you know from that

13:49

angle I can see where where they're

13:51

coming from but at the same time with

13:54

not in that position when you're not a

13:55

law enforcement official you know and

13:57

when you're simply looking at the

13:59

tradition as it is in reality the you

14:02

know like you said the numbers of her

14:05

devotees and then are not they're not

14:08

criminals you know and if you look at

14:10

where she's active if you have a faith

14:13

tradition in largely impoverished areas

14:16

which grew out of people's relationship

14:19

to poverty their relationship to you

14:22

know corrupt

14:24

official groups whether it's the church

14:26

or the state you know or neighbors who

14:29

were violent or whatever you know when

14:33

you're when you're looking at that from

14:35

the outside you realize that okay so a

14:38

guy gets arrested with a tattoo of Santa

14:41

Muerte and he happens to be you know a

14:43

contract killer well he's got a mother

14:46

and he's got a father anyway of brothers

14:48

and sisters he's got cousins aunts

14:50

uncles and all that they may be devotees

14:52

- are you gonna claim that they're

14:54

because they're in a in a environment

14:56

that has these elements of violence to

15:00

it are you gonna say that they're all

15:01

criminals you know and so you get into

15:03

this question of where does where does

15:06

criminality spawn from which I think is

15:08

something really valid valuable with

15:10

looking at the tradition neutrally you

15:12

start to see a different a different

15:14

aspect of criminality than we're

15:15

normally presented with this black and

15:17

white like you know criminal not

15:19

criminal

15:21

you know criminal environment not

15:23

criminal environment there's you start

15:24

to develop a nuanced by through the lens

15:27

of Santa Muerte you know and then with

15:29

the church you've got a situation where

15:32

she just simply doesn't fit in

15:34

with church doctrine theory the the

15:37

theology of the Catholic Church could

15:38

never include Santa Muerte

15:41

as she is in her current tradition so

15:45

you know what was brought up in the the

15:48

Mexican the conference of Mexican

15:50

Bishops clarification is the fact that

15:53

she's not a person something that comes

15:57

as a surprise to folks in the US who are

15:59

used to you know concepts of gods

16:00

goddesses paganism you know pagan gods

16:04

the way that that kind of stuff all

16:06

plays out in the faith traditions that

16:09

most people in the US are familiar with

16:11

Santa Muerte is very much death itself

16:14

and all her devotees will say that that

16:17

you know this isn't a goddess of death

16:20

or whatever this is death

16:22

you know and so within that context she

16:25

can't be sanctified santa muerte

16:28

translates as saint death that's its

16:30

most accurate translation and so within

16:34

catholic theology only persons you know

16:38

only people can be who were

16:40

flesh-and-blood and actually living can

16:43

be sanctified so right there Santa

16:48

Muerte can't be a part of the Catholic

16:49

Church you know and so I with ending

16:53

with it so with the Catholic issue I

16:54

think what comes in then is a question

16:56

of you know the excessive focus on

16:59

Satanism and you know devil worship

17:02

claims to with again with him Catholic

17:08

theology Christ defeated death so and

17:13

the figure representing death becomes

17:16

Satan because you know in the fall

17:18

what's the what's the fall is the

17:20

introduction of death into the Garden of

17:22

Eden and the expulsion of man and woman

17:24

and so you know Satan as the tempter and

17:27

that kind of thing

17:29

Satan you know brings death into the

17:32

world so within that definition again

17:36

Santa Muerte would be technically a

17:38

satanic religion within the Catholic

17:41

theology so you know by the Catholics

17:44

reaction is you know pretty much

17:47

based on the doctrine there's not much

17:49

else that they can do other than condemn

17:51

it you know and make sure people

17:53

recognize that this is not Catholic

17:55

theology that's going on you know with

17:58

all that said the tradition itself again

18:01

when you're not Catholic and you're just

18:03

looking at it from the tradition is much

18:07

different than the picture painted by

18:09

the Catholic Church there's a couple of

18:13

places we could go right there let me

18:14

start from the beginning where you were

18:17

talking about the law enforcement

18:18

involvement with Santa Muerte and the

18:21

iconography thereof because Andrew

18:27

chestnut mentioned that when he was down

18:29

in the the mecca if you will of Santa

18:32

Muerte which is was the name of that

18:33

area um when he was in Tepito I think

18:39

yeah I think it was tippy-toe he was in

18:40

Tepito and he came across a lawyer and

18:43

he said the lawyer was saved from his

18:47

kidnappers by Santa Muerte so even even

18:50

the lawyers right right right and that

18:53

you know there's a there's a specific

18:56

candle color for justice which can be

19:00

used by lawyers and I'm not just I'm

19:03

sorry okay a color Association because

19:05

it could be a statue it can be you know

19:07

any ways that you could color in a

19:09

ritual but their color Association

19:10

specifically for justice which again can

19:14

be used by lawyers judges prosecuting

19:19

prosecuted or defendants so with her

19:21

neutrality really plays into this fact

19:24

that anyone in a profession where

19:26

they're dealing with you know they're

19:28

struggling with some kind of difficulty

19:29

or whatever depending on the level of

19:32

that difficulty and you know their

19:34

personal beliefs Santa Muerte can be

19:37

something that they go to now I know we

19:39

haven't really gone into what Santa

19:41

Muerte is yet but there's one last thing

19:44

I'd like to go into before we do and

19:47

that is how it started spawning in

19:49

Mexico because it started as an esoteric

19:53

club that it started with a small group

19:57

of elites in the sense of that they were

20:00

like celebrity

20:01

or something like that in other words

20:02

they they probably hit but there was

20:04

also a woman from what I understand that

20:06

I think it's the Romeo family down there

20:08

who's been worshipping or even a devotee

20:12

for 57 years but prior to that

20:15

that's Dona Keita yeah oh okay but prior

20:20

to that it was part of like the upper

20:22

echelon of society and yet now it's this

20:26

street folk religion that is stretches

20:30

from Chile to Canada right and the the

20:35

elite thing is a rumor there's a

20:38

tradition to journalists or a writer but

20:41

he wrote a fictionalized account which

20:44

he claimed was based on real facts Oh

20:46

out the thing I mean presumably I

20:50

suppose he's a trustworthy source but he

20:53

did write it as fiction and there is

20:55

that's not a not a proven claim that

20:58

would definitely be like a hearsay kind

20:59

of thing but looking at you know where

21:02

her tradition did come out of in the

21:06

1940s it was written about in terms of

21:08

love matric and there you know though

21:11

there was a specific no vein uh you know

21:15

it's series of prayers that went along

21:17

with this love spell that was associated

21:19

with Santa Muerte so within the context

21:23

of Mexican culture where folk magic has

21:28

had a lot more strength over the years

21:31

um I could definitely see you know

21:34

because it's focused on love magic and

21:36

that that could definitely start to

21:38

attract you know every level of society

21:42

all right

21:43

well then let's talk about now what is

21:46

Santa Muerte cuz I guess everyone

21:49

deserves to hear it now well it's it's

21:52

dad I mean that's Dona Kate is head

21:57

there's a good short documentary on

22:00

monster TV which is on YouTube where

22:04

Dona Kate is quoted as you know

22:06

essentially just it is death you know

22:10

that there's no no god it's it's not a

22:12

god

22:14

the reason that devotees can say that

22:17

Santa Muerte is second only to God is

22:19

that she is quite literally the thing

22:22

that ends everything yeah I mean it said

22:28

she is that she's death I don't know you

22:31

know she's the transition point for

22:33

everything so the thing that makes

22:34

things partiality you know if you think

22:37

about God as a whole and then what

22:40

splits that up into things that are

22:42

individual you know parts she's that

22:45

force so she is to her devotees is

22:48

literally you know second only to God

22:51

she's the thing that makes reality

22:53

possible she is death when we talk about

22:57

Santa Muerte Saint death and all these

23:01

like wonderful nicknames I think you

23:04

probably know them off the top of your

23:06

head better than I do what are some of

23:08

them Elif laka and La Nina Blanca uh the

23:17

godmother

23:17

yeah lemon tree knows that's one of my

23:19

favorite ones yeah I like that one I

23:21

think that defines her practical work

23:24

very well you know if you think in terms

23:26

of the godmother and also kind of points

23:31

to that second only to God thing because

23:33

if you think of what what the function

23:35

of a godmother or a godfather is within

23:37

Catholicism it's the guide the you know

23:41

the kid up into God to introduce them to

23:44

God you know and that holy relationship

23:46

then if you look at the way that her

23:48

devotees talk about her that's exactly

23:50

what her relationship is to them you

23:53

know they they feel that when they die

23:55

they passed through Santa Muerte to go

23:58

to God you know so she's the the last

24:01

thing that happens and in some sense you

24:03

know when they're born they go from non

24:06

existence to existence so their state in

24:08

non existence dies and then they're born

24:11

and so she becomes very complex you know

24:15

figure who's there at birth and dad and

24:19

you know it's basically the godmother to

24:22

their existence it made when I really

24:25

started getting into it i real

24:26

as a kind of guardian angel figure that

24:29

is always present with life I mean in

24:32

the room with you and that's something I

24:34

want to get into you I mean with you

24:36

later is the death anxiety and the fact

24:40

that you know not just ourselves but

24:42

many other creatures on the planet

24:45

understand death and death anxiety

24:48

elephants of course mourn and there is

24:52

these wonderful photographs that were

24:55

circulating online for a while of a tiny

24:57

bird I think a sparrow morning another

25:01

dead Sparrow and it was like really

25:03

intense very touching sort of photograph

25:05

because it was kind of an undeniable

25:07

image because of a series of images so

25:10

this is like a real thing that we're all

25:13

conscious of and here we have this I

25:16

mean let's say cult because even they

25:19

call it a cult the cult oh yeah that is

25:22

focused on this presence that is death

25:26

for life in other words like death is

25:28

unavoidable for living things it is

25:31

always in the room with you and there is

25:35

at one end of us a biological need to

25:38

keep death away so we survive but then

25:41

as higher life-forms we're of course are

25:44

well aware that the trend is for us to

25:49

eventually die to meet her to meet the

25:52

holy death of Santa Muerte that that's

25:54

that's an inevitability you know medical

25:57

science is yet to take us beyond it and

25:59

then even if it did well how do you know

26:01

if a star is not going to explode in

26:04

your neighborhood or whatever but that

26:07

kind of idea that death Santa Muerte as

26:11

a kind of guardian angel figure we got

26:14

any comments there yeah that's that what

26:16

you what you'd said you know well one of

26:19

her names lesson T similarity means most

26:22

holy death and so if you think about

26:24

that I mean that right there is at the

26:26

at the relationship level that people

26:30

come to her as is the most holy death so

26:33

it's it's that transition that's holy

26:35

you know and what's really interesting I

26:38

think in terms of

26:39

you know the her ties to criminality in

26:42

that is that as a neutral figure neutral

26:45

because she is literally death and

26:47

there's no emotion in death and there's

26:49

no choice and death and there's no

26:52

deviation in that and so she doesn't

26:56

have you know there's it's just a

26:59

complete true neutrality almost

27:01

non-existence to it because of that the

27:06

the criminal element really comes under

27:09

the judgment of Santa Muerte when they

27:11

die so if you think about you know a

27:14

contract killer they may pray to her to

27:17

you know have a successful hit or to

27:20

stay away from being caught and that but

27:22

at the end of the day when they get

27:24

caught and they're punished

27:25

they're often punished by another

27:27

devotee of Santa Muerte

27:29

a completely neutral sense of this is

27:31

justice and that you know there's a kind

27:34

of folk Catholic tradition of the saint

27:36

of the Good Thief which was at times

27:41

fostered by the Franciscan Order and the

27:44

you know the Good Thief is the one who

27:47

when Christ is crucified there's two

27:49

thieves one of whom basically says you

27:52

know well if you're if you are who you

27:53

say you are let's get off the cross you

27:56

know like let's let's stop this and you

27:59

know prove that you truly are what you

28:01

what you are and who you say you are and

28:02

then the other thief says you know well

28:05

you know basically to the the first

28:08

leave shut up we're you know we're

28:10

guilty of a crime this man is and you

28:13

know why would you why would you say

28:15

that we're guilty and we're being

28:16

punished justly he's not you know and

28:19

then says you know like basically I

28:21

believe in what you're saying and Christ

28:24

says well then you'll be with me in

28:25

paradise now theological II that's a

28:28

really really important fact that you

28:31

have a moment where there's two thieves

28:33

both of whom are guilty one of whom says

28:36

I'm guilty let me out of my punishment

28:38

the other one says I'm guilty and I'm

28:42

being punished justly but I have

28:43

compassion for you and he becomes the

28:47

first Saint he becomes the first

28:49

sanctified figure in Christ resurrection

28:51

because Christ says you know you

28:53

with me you know you'll be with me in

28:55

heaven so there's no you know this is

28:59

this is a thief listen you know this

29:01

isn't like a repentant person on their

29:03

deathbed or something like that

29:04

he doesn't report really he says I'm

29:06

guilty yeah I'm guilty and I did what I

29:08

did and I don't regret it and I'm being

29:10

punished justly but I believe who you

29:12

are and Christ says okay we'll come with

29:14

me to have you know because you've

29:16

gotten you got the you got what it is

29:18

and that's the I think that's really one

29:20

of the central ideas behind this the way

29:23

that the Santa Muerte devotees feel

29:25

about the idea of the most holy death

29:27

you know so you have gunmen you've got

29:30

drug dealers you've got rapists

29:32

you've got kidnappers you've got

29:34

smugglers

29:35

you know the whole gamut of whatever

29:36

illegal activity / fishy ating her but

29:42

in the end they all come under judgment

29:43

and it's exactly because of that death

29:46

anxiety if you listen to a lot of what

29:48

they say you know the more violent the

29:50

person isn't that the more fearful they

29:52

are of Santa Muerte and the more that

29:54

they feel that they've got to give in

29:56

order to hold back Santa Muerte is

29:58

justice so you know one of the

30:01

interesting things about Bishop

30:02

fly-through vibe mentioned earlier he's

30:04

starting a ministry to basically I don't

30:09

think he would call it exorcism but to

30:12

help guide Santa Marty studs out of the

30:17

tradition that they're stuck in this

30:18

cycle well a lot of the people that he's

30:21

going to be dealing with are probably

30:23

the people that feel guilty for

30:24

something that they've petitioned you

30:27

know and have in their Ford Field you

30:29

know he's getting this report back that

30:30

she's evil and oppressing their life

30:32

what they're really what's really

30:34

happening is they're coming under their

30:35

own guilt you know and that's part of

30:37

the function of Santa Muerte so there's

30:39

it you know at every level of the the

30:43

tradition there's these amazing

30:44

complexities that you get into that

30:47

really exposed interesting interesting

30:51

existential questions and interesting

30:53

ways to look at how people deal with

30:55

stuff you know and how people react to

30:57

their own emotions or their own thoughts

30:59

or their own feelings and urges you know

31:01

it's really fascinating that's that's

31:04

the other thing is we should we should

31:06

get into

31:07

how Santa Muerte functions on a daily

31:11

level on a practical level because the

31:13

thing that really got me like despite

31:17

all the the just a fascinating aspects

31:20

of it historically contemporaneously

31:24

seeing its effect applied to practical

31:28

magic okay and you know we can talk

31:30

later about you know what do we mean by

31:33

magic and stuff because I know you and I

31:35

have kind of fringy takes on it even for

31:38

people who practice magic right so to

31:44

see that well first you have the whole I

31:46

guess a Latin American thing which is

31:49

like magic magic oriented whether it's

31:52

you know Santeria or praying the saints

31:55

or you know various kinds of hoodoo and

31:58

what not is that it's a very active

32:00

spiritual community where you have

32:02

people playing it out saying prayers do

32:06

three heavenly father's etc it's it's a

32:09

very oh that's you mentioned three

32:11

having any fathers I just want to jump

32:12

in real quick because the three heavenly

32:15

father's thing is that's like you that's

32:19

that's when you really get into the

32:21

truth folk traditions it's like three

32:23

our fathers would be the easiest thing

32:25

that you would do I mean I've read

32:27

accounts of nine night vigils where

32:30

you're fasting and staying up until five

32:32

in the morning doing prayers the prayer

32:34

recommendations are I mean they're

32:36

intense so you know we see this kind of

32:39

like popular into things where the

32:41

people who will talk to the press or you

32:43

know go to the newspaper and they get

32:44

interviewed that's usually not the far

32:47

extent of it you know the far extent of

32:48

it is some pretty impressive feats of

32:52

you know fasting meditation focus and

32:55

prayer for Austin Sibley practical ends

32:59

you know yeah and I think one of the

33:02

reasons why that is which is I guess we

33:06

should really get into why it's so

33:08

efficacious and I mean you know why it

33:12

has such a strong effect as an icon

33:15

because I'm kind of like on the fence

33:17

with icons in fact one of the reasons

33:19

why we're having the

33:20

conversation is because I have never

33:22

been blown away by iconography in my

33:26

life until I encountered this and like

33:28

really soaked it up for a second and

33:30

realized why there would even be for the

33:34

altars by the border and why the

33:36

commercial sales of Santa Muerte

33:39

paraphernalia are so high in North

33:43

America and Central America is because

33:46

it is it when you look at it as an

33:48

object you know the reason why I think I

33:51

wasn't interested in it at first is

33:53

because it was just a lien and then it

33:56

was a version like you have the aversion

33:59

because it's a skeletal figure of course

34:01

and then when you get into the actual

34:03

presence of the thing and then it's

34:06

nature with the wish-granting

34:08

and trying to ensure one has a good

34:11

death by granting these wishes and of

34:14

course if you ask for the wrong thing

34:15

only and the onus is on you I think that

34:21

really plays into that it's the spread

34:23

of this thing is because the idea the

34:25

image the idol the representation is

34:28

extraordinarily potent yeah and very

34:33

complex too I mean the the amount of

34:35

information that can be packed into the

34:39

different names the different color

34:42

associations the different objects that

34:44

are associated with the statue

34:46

it's it's amazing because like you said

34:49

I mean it's a it's a skeletal figure and

34:51

that's basically it so it's at one time

34:52

really really simple and at the same

34:56

time able to hold this complexity that's

34:58

insane you know I mean if you look at

35:00

the some of the altars and there's like

35:03

hundreds of statues all of them

35:05

different all of them a different book

35:07

essentially on understanding that and

35:11

understanding that relationship but also

35:12

understanding life because of the

35:14

intimate Association of life and that

35:16

you know I mean so you have I mean it

35:19

yeah it's astounding I'm kind of

35:22

speechless by you know when you because

35:24

I've just been I just did that that

35:26

piece on the clarification so I've been

35:28

looking at a lot of the altar pictures

35:29

and stuff and it really is intense you

35:32

know and then the other thing that's

35:34

interest

35:34

- with the icons there's the apparitions

35:39

they have there's a there's an

35:41

apparition tradition of you know the

35:45

same kind of thing of people seeing like

35:46

Christ on the side of a building in the

35:48

water and stuff like that right or the

35:50

Virgin Mary there's Santa Muerte

35:52

apparitions and so I've got a this guy

35:57

Martin George publishes a book called

36:00

devotion devotion of Santa Muerte or

36:03

devotion to Santa Muerte magazine and

36:07

the there's a whole issue that's

36:10

dedicated to these apparitions and it

36:12

was really funny because I was up in

36:14

Brooklyn to do to present the co-host a

36:18

couple talks at the observatory and in

36:22

my friend Shannon's building right right

36:25

hit but right at the front there was

36:28

like a boot scuff mark or something like

36:29

that and no it was you know I mean you

36:32

when you have is something as simple as

36:34

a skeletal figure in a cloak a lot of

36:36

things are gonna look like that

36:37

so this boots cuff was essentially you

36:40

know a Santa Muerte apparition it looks

36:42

just like a Grim Reaper figure so you

36:45

know the like they're gonna encounter

36:47

this this stop everywhere and you're

36:49

walmart sells t-shirts right now you can

36:53

go into the t-shirt section there in

36:55

those little spin rack things they're

36:58

the same images literally the same

37:00

images that are being used in Mexico

37:02

except for in Mexico they have like a

37:04

glittery Santa Muerte font on them and

37:07

here they don't have that it's just the

37:09

the Grim Reaper figure but it's the

37:11

exact same image the ones in Mexico are

37:14

actually a little bit better print jobs

37:18

but ones you know and there's still kind

37:21

of black market images that are ripped

37:23

off of other things I mean but mark you

37:27

know Walmart is selling the scene and

37:29

you walk into Walmart Santa Muerte is

37:31

there she just doesn't have a label on

37:33

her you know and but she's sitting there

37:35

you know in the t-shirt rack and some

37:37

kids picking that up you know and going

37:39

home and going to church the next day or

37:41

whatever at the same time as Santa

37:44

Muerte in this closet you know it's just

37:45

not named yet but then if he encounters

37:48

we're say anywhere on the news or

37:50

whatever and that image pops up you know

37:53

there's you know they've that person has

37:55

that shirt or they walk into Walmart and

37:57

they realize oh you know this isn't it's

38:00

not label to Santa Muerte but she's

38:01

sitting right here you know which to me

38:03

I mean that's amazing the way and then

38:07

on the other end of it going down into

38:09

you know Mexico City in that the ability

38:13

to reprogram you know and to take these

38:16

images which you know taking like a like

38:19

a Halloween album cover and turning it

38:22

into a devotional image you know like

38:24

hair model and stuff like that from the

38:26

80s with these grim reaper figures

38:28

ripping that that picture off and then

38:31

you know writing Santa Muerte on it or

38:33

putting you know printing Santa Muerte

38:35

kind of local thing on it it suddenly

38:38

becomes a devotional object and no less

38:40

legitimate than you know any other

38:43

devotional object in the tradition and

38:45

again you know that to me that's amazing

38:47

it's you turning everyday objects just

38:51

you know regular images that you know

38:53

people think are Kichi or cliche or

38:55

whatever and suddenly it becomes this

38:57

incredibly potent thing which is scaring

38:59

law enforcement officers making the

39:01

Catholic Church you know have to really

39:03

clarify its doctrine and you know

39:06

causing people to be excited over a

39:08

satanic scare you know but it's from

39:11

this idea of a relationship with death

39:15

that can be focused through Walmart

39:18

t-shirts that it's just amazing that was

39:21

really funny I have to I have to like

39:23

apologize to everyone in advance because

39:25

of the recording I have to hold back my

39:27

laughter because it might screw up the

39:30

feeds between David and Ikes I think

39:31

when we talk at the same time the fee

39:35

gets a little screw up so I have to hold

39:36

back my laughter cuz usually I just

39:37

laugh in his face when he does the kind

39:40

of these always talking about like

39:44

they're selling mind science at Walmart

39:46

dude you want to get like a real tangent

39:47

like a real quick side tangent because

39:49

Walmart is the Nexus yeah there's like a

39:52

cult nonsense let's hear it real quick

39:54

well oh yeah you see now you're getting

39:56

you got me into it you didn't but the

39:59

walmart sells exorcism books

40:01

they sell books on exorcism that I mean

40:04

it's the on every street corner in

40:07

America there you know the most a just

40:11

generic distribution hub of you know

40:15

regular everyday daily garbage and they

40:20

sell books on exorcism that are

40:22

effective that if you go back and you

40:24

look at the Exorcist traditions or if

40:26

you look at any of the stuff being

40:27

published you know as a grimoire or

40:29

whatever they're essentially using the

40:32

same like psycho spiritual social

40:35

technology in these books that are

40:39

available at Walmart it's it's amazing

40:41

you know in the another comment you made

40:45

was the the mind science that there's a

40:47

Christian mind science pop daytime TV

40:51

publications there as well right yeah

40:53

well that's the yeah I mean a lot of the

40:55

stuff that they're that they're pushing

40:58

as Christianity in this it's part of the

41:01

New Apostolic Reformation movement but

41:03

it's essentially mind science and it's

41:05

positive thinking the prosperity gospel

41:07

stuff that's all Napoleon Hill you know

41:09

they've just slapped Jesus in it and you

41:12

know kind of thrown some biblical quotes

41:15

on that which actually in a way again it

41:17

turns it back to the kind of magic you

41:18

know it's mind science plus biblical

41:21

quotes and you're essentially getting

41:23

back into 19th century magic you know so

41:27

go to your local Walmart as long as you

41:33

know as long as you can kind of get past

41:34

the veil of offensive prosperity gospel

41:39

Christianity you can access some pretty

41:42

potent you know spiritual technology

41:44

there great thank you Mark home of

41:51

American sorcerers beautiful so let's

41:58

let's get back into it was this the so

42:02

back to Santa Muerte here so the the two

42:05

things well two two of the things I

42:06

really wanted to talk about right here

42:08

was the practical application because

42:10

she is a she is not she's not just white

42:13

she's not just black she's not just

42:15

she's a full spectrum agent of Jewish as

42:17

a rainbow which from what I understand

42:20

came in from Cuba and the the so I

42:26

wanted to talk about as a as a practical

42:28

magical system and then on the other

42:32

side I wanted to talk about I guess you

42:36

know and we'll save it for later like

42:37

what we mean by magic at the at the end

42:40

of this because I don't really want to

42:41

go on that tangent now I really want to

42:42

talk about Santa Muerte now and the

42:45

other end of the figure because what

42:48

happened note her nature pardon me not

42:51

the figure but her nature because this

42:54

this is the the shift that I was

42:56

surprised by an attracted to because at

42:58

first I was like and David's just in the

43:00

skeletons made just in this Grim Reaper

43:02

stuff but then then when I looked at it

43:05

where she's this loving watchful

43:09

maternal wish-granting will grant you

43:12

anything you ask for almost like a

43:14

parent you know who will save you from

43:16

kidnappers so she's a she's a goodly

43:20

loving big pseudo female death and how

43:29

how that how I mean Mike I mean that's

43:33

one of the reasons why I'm having a call

43:34

because when I imagined that present so

43:36

I was like okay let's imagine this as a

43:38

presence there was truly like a release

43:42

of tension in my chest that is

43:45

characteristic of my person and that

43:48

I've never had with any other imaginary

43:51

device that I've employed you know like

43:53

I mean everyone like involved in magic

43:55

likes to play with you know Tulpas and

43:57

Vives and sigils and you know basically

44:00

also imaginary devices and visualization

44:02

tools and mantras and things like that

44:04

I've never had the kind of alleviation

44:07

that I got from this icon I think it

44:10

tied very close to the existential

44:12

problem of death and generally fearing

44:16

death and also the male interpretation

44:18

of death which we'll get into a little

44:19

later and the differences between you

44:21

know the standard Grim Reaper and Santa

44:25

Muerte but before we go there let's talk

44:27

about it let's talk about her as

44:28

this as this magical operating system

44:32

yes she's uh is known in in Mexico is

44:39

basically the most efficacious miracle

44:42

worker

44:42

a lot of the conversion stories from

44:45

Catholicism to to you know the Santa

44:50

Muerte devotions are based on the fact

44:53

that people will say they petitioned the

44:55

Virgin of Guadalupe and didn't you know

44:58

really get what they wanted they didn't

45:00

st. Jude didn't really get what they

45:02

wanted and you know they pursued all the

45:06

legitimate Saints and finally they

45:10

turned to Santa Muerte and that was when

45:13

their prayer was granted so she's got

45:16

this reputation for being you know

45:18

essentially like you said just a master

45:22

of patroness of you know people's needs

45:26

across the board whatever it is whatever

45:29

you want whatever you need if you're

45:32

willing to come to her and that's

45:33

actually there's something there's

45:37

similar traditions in gauchito gil who's

45:41

a focusing in south america but his

45:51

sanctification on the folk level came

45:54

from him being kind of a Robin Hood

45:55

figure who the policeman who murdered

45:58

him or who killed him after capturing

46:00

him he before he was killed he said he

46:05

told the policeman your son is sick your

46:08

kid sick when you get back to the

46:10

village if you pray to me I will heal so

46:14

the policeman proceeds to kill gauchito

46:18

gil by slitting his throat while he's

46:21

hanging upside down leaves him out you

46:23

know like a pig basically kills him like

46:25

a pig goes home not doesn't really think

46:28

about it when he gets home his kids sick

46:30

and so he immediately prays to gauchito

46:33

gil and his kid gets better and is

46:37

healed and then he goes and spreads that

46:39

you know that message

46:41

throughout the surrounding area that

46:44

it's miracle was granted but in that in

46:46

that situation you know here's a person

46:48

who killed somebody else and the person

46:51

that they killed is now granting their

46:53

their child life you know so this really

46:58

interesting you know kind of if you pray

47:01

to me I will give you what you need you

47:04

know from these folk Saints it's very

47:06

common but what's not common is just the

47:10

level and broad spectrum of things that

47:14

she covers you know yes she seems to be

47:17

like the I mean I couldn't I couldn't

47:19

think of an analogy of course using

47:21

these like tech analogy so I was like

47:24

you know she's like the programming

47:25

language she's like the you know English

47:29

around the world or I guess you know

47:30

there's also Chinese in Spanish but

47:32

she's like a standard operating language

47:35

that just does what you say it's like a

47:38

switch Swiss Army knife because even

47:41

from the research I was doing last night

47:43

the thing that caught my attention or

47:46

one of the things that caught my

47:47

attention was how everyone who was being

47:51

interviewed about Santa Muerte who

47:54

considered themselves a devotee and

47:57

interestingly enough some of them

47:59

retained some of their Catholicism as

48:01

well but those who swore by it

48:04

swear by her as a miracle worker as one

48:08

who gets things done and they were all

48:10

giving testimony to how this happened

48:14

that happened one woman said she was

48:17

pulled back from almost getting stabbed

48:19

in the stomach another guy I heard said

48:23

that his son was shot in the head with a

48:25

9-millimeter and then was drinking with

48:27

them three days later that she death

48:31

that death actually grants favor that

48:36

has results and you know in my own kind

48:43

of case I don't know how I can treat

48:44

this but what I can say coming at it as

48:48

a novice is that my metaphor would be is

48:51

like well it's a very effective metaphor

48:54

system

48:54

very powerful very potent because it's

48:56

part of a process that a conscious

48:58

entity goes through is eventually they

49:00

die we fear death so you bring in this

49:02

loving death thing at which is friendly

49:05

and inevitable but that you can use that

49:08

as a structure for focused intent and to

49:13

have kind of results and then another

49:15

interpretation is gonna be like well no

49:17

it's an actual entity that grants favors

49:19

fine

49:19

granted okay I just want to draw that

49:21

delineation right there just because

49:23

just to let people know that there's

49:25

there's another way to interpret it not

49:27

that I necessarily do that way but just

49:29

from my background as people know in the

49:32

Campbell field and the my big toe field

49:34

and whatnot is that we're talking about

49:35

you know a reality as being a simulation

49:38

that is subject to one's intent and that

49:41

one uses symbolic metaphoric vehicles

49:44

for intent etc etc etc I don't want to

49:47

go deep into that tear but I just wanted

49:49

to mention that so well that that in a

49:51

way actually it's interesting because if

49:53

you look at the books that are the the

49:57

devotional material you know the printed

49:59

material almost every single one that I

50:03

can think of starts out with by your

50:06

faith you will be given what you deserve

50:10

by your faith so essentially saying

50:14

exactly what you're saying and then

50:17

that's bolstered by the fact that you

50:19

have someone like Dona kita essentially

50:20

saying no this is death la heater

50:23

ordered we're not talking about a

50:25

goddess this is death and then when you

50:27

consider what that is

50:29

you know she's there the a lot of the

50:32

devotees are very insistent on the fact

50:34

that this is not a being or an entity

50:37

that they're talking about they're

50:40

literally talking about that you know

50:43

and and that you know another way that

50:46

she's kind of she opens up these

50:48

philosophical questions because then

50:49

you've got to ask yourself well what

50:52

what are they dealing with you know and

50:54

then you look at the the the

50:57

iconographic in that and again it's what

 

iconographic in that and again it's what

51:00

is iconographic me because here's this

51:03

iconography of you know female so gender

51:06

specific

51:08

a reaper you know not a different type

51:12

of skeleton very much a grim reaper very

51:15

specific iconography yet dealing with

51:19

something that the devotees say is not

51:23

an entity or being necessarily it

51:25

literally is death

51:26

you know yet at the same time this

51:30

nonentity non-being

51:31

has efficacy as an agent in their lives

51:35

up to the point of them seeing

51:37

apparitions and I had mentioned a bhoot

51:39

scuff that I saw but you know other

51:41

people talking about apparitions

51:43

literally see a physical Grim Reaper

51:46

figure you know come out whether or not

51:48

there is hallucinating or whatever that

51:50

question is you know that's beside the

51:52

point here it's just it's simply that

51:54

here you have people that on one end of

51:56

the scale will admit that they're

51:58

talking about death itself and yet on

52:00

the other are literally having these

52:02

experiences with what you know would

52:06

probably be considered some sort of

52:08

entity and treating it like an entity or

52:10

being or a person in some way yet you

52:13

know just really focusing on the fact

52:15

that it's still death it's not really an

52:17

an entity or being isn't so going on

52:20

what of that idea light there let's let

52:23

me ask you what do you think of this

52:24

idea because I've I've noticed that the

52:27

technology being suggested is that it's

52:30

a very kind of standard folk technology

52:32

where you give something and you get

52:33

something right so what do you think

52:38

like of this idea of giving a devotion

52:43

to one's death and then how that would

52:46

end up kind of reprogramming you as an

52:49

individual in other words like you get

52:51

you give yourself a or you give a

52:53

devotion to an inevitability one's

52:55

terminus one's end one's medical debt

52:57

and then from that there's also this

53:00

intent vector your wish and that comes

53:03

back to you and goes out into the world

53:05

so it's you balancing your existence in

53:08

a way with this inevitability and then

53:10

going into like well what do I want what

53:13

do I want to what do I want to do what

53:15

do I want to be in that kind of thing

53:16

and building your kind of you know

53:19

consciousness platform from those

53:21

points in in history if you will yeah I

53:25

did I've never thought about it like

53:26

that that's a that's really an

53:28

interesting yeah seeing it temporarily

53:31

like that the way I mean the way I would

53:33

I don't know that's an interesting

53:35

that's an interesting perspective on the

53:40

relationship there you know the way I

53:44

was kind of looking at it was through

53:46

you know if you look at every major

53:49

tradition they always have a momentum

53:51

ory element to it and she's kind of just

53:56

the ultimate memento mori' where you're

53:59

you're only dealing with that there's

54:03

nothing else but that and so you know in

54:07

terms of her granting it yeah it's

54:10

interesting I I sometimes get caught up

54:12

in the fact that I'm looking at it from

54:15

you know a background in like studying

54:18

contemplative traditions so I tend to

54:21

think of it that way

54:22

and you know I personally am not very

54:25

practically oriented in terms of the

54:28

traditions and stuff so it I'm just

54:33

thinking through what you were saying I

54:34

mean that that's a really interesting

54:35

way of dealing with it like that you

54:37

even looking at the parapsychology stuff

54:39

in that I rarely think I've fashioned

54:41

that's more of just experiential or or

54:46

that kind of thing so yeah it's it's

54:49

interesting to think about the position

54:50

and what exactly that means in terms of

54:53

the relationship with the with the

54:55

iconographic yeah in some ways you can

54:58

look at it like you know you've got the

54:59

patron tradition in Bonn and Tibetan

55:03

Buddhism where you have the idea of you

55:06

know kind of sacrificing yourself to the

55:10

hungry ghosts and the demons you know

55:13

that that devour you you know and then

55:15

looking at that that kind of concept

55:18

through you know sacrifices and

55:21

religious ritual and that and

55:23

propitiating gods and that kind of thing

55:25

and paying kind of paying off the the

55:27

inevitable end you know but she's she's

55:31

interesting in the fact that it seems

55:32

that the petitions and that

55:34

they they do have you know I mean

55:37

there's specific liquor types you know

55:40

tobacco smoking weed stuff like that

55:44

like that all is associated with the

55:47

with the things that she's given so she

55:52

does have kind of a personality through

55:54

those through the gifts that are given

55:55

her you know right and she's even called

55:58

what is it lookup wrong yeah look

56:01

cabrona

56:02

the the she-goat or the bitch is what

56:04

you know that's that yeah that's that

56:07

that's an amazing personal level that it

56:09

comes to I mean we like with with the

56:11

cigarette offerings and the the

56:13

marijuana offerings it's you don't just

56:16

like leave it to her you know it's

56:19

expected that you're smoking a cigarette

56:21

as well with her you know I mean it's

56:23

like hanging out with your godmother

56:25

smoking a cigarette and talking about

56:28

whatever you need yeah this amazingly

56:30

personal relationship with this despite

56:33

you know some of the stories that come

56:34

out about you know being afraid and and

56:36

being very respectful in that there's

56:39

also this level I mean the the bitch

56:41

stuff the the cabrona thing that comes

56:42

out of an interview where a lady on the

56:45

street a devotee was being interviewed

56:47

and she was like she's a bitch like us

56:48

you know that's why we like so you know

56:52

there's this incredible just acceptance

56:54

and very you know very homey you know

56:57

just very domestic feeling with it that

57:00

you wouldn't expect with grim reaper

57:04

figure you know or really any kind of

57:07

devotion it's it's an amazing devotional

57:10

tradition in that it is so real it's so

57:14

just you know daily life everyday stuff

57:17

you know and some of the here's I kind

57:20

of I'm gonna track back some the

57:22

confusion over the offerings sure one of

57:25

the one of the things that the people in

57:28

the US have a hard time recognizing

57:30

mainstream us and that is that in

57:35

anything like hoodoo Santeria voodoo

57:39

traditions any of that when when there's

57:42

a ritual that any of the afro-latin

57:45

traditions when there's a ritual free

57:47

either money

57:48

or prosperity or health or anything like

57:53

that in terms of the African traditions

57:56

that these things come out of the

57:58

African influences on them those states

58:01

of being are considered in illness so

58:04

poverty is considered a spiritual

58:06

illness so you go to a spiritual worker

58:09

who is going to cure you of that

58:13

spiritual illness you know so it's not

58:16

like the way we think of it

58:18

you know in terms of capitalism and I

58:20

have money because I worked hard or

58:21

whatever the way it is in these systems

58:25

at least the where the you know where

58:27

these ideas come out of is that that's

58:29

literally a spiritual illness when

58:32

you're when you're you know feeling

58:34

depressed and that leads to poverty or

58:36

what you know I mean they're they track

58:37

it back to a kind of psychological

58:39

spiritual level so you know propitiating

58:43

something like Santa Muerte for money or

58:46

health or freedom or any of that does at

58:50

the base where this you know these ideas

58:53

kind of come out of and come from have

58:55

to do with the spiritual illness you

58:57

know so we think of practical magic in

58:59

terms of you mentioned it earlier mind

59:01

science or something like that where you

59:04

know it's you you know very self

59:08

oriented and what do you want and and

59:10

that kind of thing well in these

59:12

traditions it's not really like that you

59:14

know at its best I mean obviously

59:15

there's a spectrum and people do one

59:19

thing or feel it's something else but at

59:21

the very you know core of where that

59:23

stuff comes from it does come from the

59:25

spiritual idea of you know poverty and

59:29

that kind of stuff you know we see right

59:33

here I think we should take five take

59:39

five and come back excellent cool all

59:42

right

59:46

[Music]

60:21

[Music]

60:28

[Music]

60:42

[Music]

61:11

all right well that's my best art Bell

61:15

impression right there ladies and

61:17

gentlemen all right I can't do anything

61:19

else did a good Alex Jones earlier

61:24

pretty Dada

61:26

oh well I've been doing him for years

61:28

globalists mine yes he's a favorite well

61:32

we're back we're back we're back and we

61:34

just took a step outside and it's a

61:36

beautiful fall day and you know the

61:39

leave the corpses of leaves are

61:41

everywhere and it's just gorgeous I mean

61:43

what can you say it's uh it's where I

61:46

wanted to open up next which is talking

61:48

about how the immediate aversion and how

61:51

in the West we have this kind of totally

61:54

different take on death than what's

61:57

going on

61:58

you know south of the border and you

61:59

know to a degree now in the US and

62:01

Canada but how we have a totally

62:04

different view of this thing it's

62:06

horrifying we don't want to talk about

62:08

it I don't want to think about it and

62:09

yet you know our Spanish brothers and

62:13

sisters are realizing that it's a source

62:15

of real power and not only just of power

62:19

but this is obvious and the spread the

62:21

commercial spread which we could talk

62:23

about a little bit later I'd love to

62:25

talk about that how it as a commercial

62:27

force Santa Muerte is just huge so let's

62:33

begin there with because that was what

62:35

drew me to it really was the release of

62:38

tension by experienced after thinking

62:41

about this this figure yeah it's a very

62:46

different way of thinking about that the

62:49

much more you know like you said earlier

62:52

you know death is present in every

62:54

moment and really focusing on that you

62:57

know and I think one of the interesting

62:58

things too is that you know before the

63:02

break I had mentioned African

63:05

spirituality and the idea of you know

63:08

poverty being a spiritual sickness and

63:10

that kind of thing and that may seem

63:11

weird in the context of Mexico but if

63:15

you look at the history of Latin America

63:17

we think of the US as a melting pot but

63:20

as soon as World War

63:22

happened one of the things that happened

63:24

in the United States to actually make it

63:26

what we know today as the United States

63:28

was they realized that all these

63:30

different ethnic groups weren't gonna

63:32

band together to fight foreign war sir

63:36

oh you had this massive movement that

63:39

you know you think of the Library of

63:40

Congress's folk music collection and all

63:42

that stuff well a lot of that was based

63:44

on building the mythology of the United

63:47

States as a centralized you know unit a

63:51

nation and trying to get all these

63:54

different ethnic groups to feel that

63:57

they were part of that well in Latin

63:59

America no less diverse and then you

64:02

know the different you know whether it

64:04

was people from Spain Portugal Britain

64:06

Africa India even you know in the

64:11

Caribbean and that from the British

64:13

trade and and that kind of thing

64:15

equally an equal melting pot that really

64:19

never had the nationalist pushes in the

64:22

same kind of way that the United States

64:24

had which was very coordinated effort to

64:28

bring all these people groups together

64:30

in Latin America you know whether it's

64:34

Mexico Central America South America you

64:38

know into the Caribbean in Cuba it's

64:42

much more diverse than the diversity has

64:45

stayed potent you know and so all

64:48

traditional societies have a very close

64:52

relationship with that you know people

64:54

used to bury in their own yards you know

64:57

and so your ancestors the ideas the idea

65:00

of family members who passed on was a

65:02

much more prevalent thing in people's

65:04

lives and in Mexico you know through

65:07

like Dia de los Muertos and stuff like

65:09

that these all these ideas are still

65:12

alive this idea of you know ancestry and

65:15

you know familial ties that don't break

65:18

once somebody dies you know and our

65:22

culture doesn't have any of that you

65:24

know I mean our we've got a funeral

65:25

industry you know I mean everything is

65:28

commercialized and even death so we have

65:33

a very displaced view of that kind of

65:35

thing

65:35

you know which the the death culture you

65:40

know in Mexico and in South America and

65:44

the Caribbean in that is is much

65:46

different and with the you know

65:48

increased globalization and the internet

65:50

and all that stuff

65:52

these ideas are starting to spread you

65:54

know into the United States again and

65:57

kind of wake people up to just how

65:59

distant we are from this just inevitable

66:01

fact of life you know I mean you look at

66:03

something like the the transhumanist

66:05

movement you know there's even an

66:08

immortality movement and that kind of

66:10

thing

66:11

Ray Kurzweil consults with the

66:14

government in the Department of Defense

66:15

and yet he is afraid of death and wants

66:19

to be immortal in a machine you know and

66:21

so this this really intense death

66:24

anxiety is incredibly prevalent in you

66:30

know the United States at a very basic

66:32

level yeah and when you know and when we

66:35

talk about death this is something I've

66:37

said for a couple of years now is that

66:39

when we talk about death dying dydz dead

66:41

is that we always really have to throw

66:43

it up in quotation marks because we

66:45

don't really know what we're talking

66:47

about when we talk about this experience

66:51

the other thing that comes to mind is an

66:55

article I read a couple of years ago and

66:57

I think it may have been in Brazil but

66:59

it was in South America and it was about

67:01

an indigenous tribe who threatened mass

67:04

suicide when deforestation was coming in

67:08

and the reason why they threatened mass

67:11

suicide is because that they were going

67:13

to bulldoze over their ancestors graves

67:18

and that they said that they would

67:21

rather die they would rather commit mass

67:23

suicide right here right there then

67:26

allow for that to happen it made me

67:28

think of you know almost like and this

67:31

may be perverse in a way but a kind of

67:34

almost you know Wi-Fi element to it that

67:37

where your ancestors are at least for

67:41

this culture is where they had a lot of

67:42

potent spiritual output right well I

67:47

mean it's so it's so closely

67:49

tied to the everyday existence that to

67:51

lose that connection would literally to

67:54

be to lose the health of your society

67:56

you know because the in societies and

68:00

cultures that have that concept of

68:02

ancestor you know ancestry and the

68:06

presence of ancestors and the presence

68:10

of the dead to lose that connection with

68:14

death is and in those who have passed on

68:16

you know into whatever other state or

68:18

whatever it is to to lose that

68:20

connection literally is to lose the

68:22

thing that allows you to live you know

68:25

if it would be I don't it'd be as if

68:28

your electricity was cut off you know

68:31

things of it because they see the dead

68:32

is so active in life and so prevalent in

68:36

life and in every aspect of life you

68:39

know that if that's taken away you

68:43

literally cut off the basis of everyday

68:45

life you know and that again comes with

68:47

the the idea of practical magic or you

68:51

know in or petitionary prayer even that

68:56

a lot of what's going on in those

68:58

situations is relationships with

69:00

ancestral spirits so you know the

69:04

prosperity of the family the food that

69:07

the family eats which is shared a lot of

69:09

times with the dead or with spirits and

69:11

that to take that away you know I mean

69:15

you basically just torn the heart out of

69:18

the culture you know and you can't help

69:21

but think about where you know our digi

69:24

modern state is where we're almost

69:26

totally outside of genetic history and

69:30

thrust into the information age soon to

69:33

be the virtual age and how that has

69:37

equality to divorce one from just the

69:40

history of bone and blood right yeah and

69:45

it's interesting too because you know we

69:47

are the illusion is that we're outside

69:51

of that you know and I'm not even

69:55

talking about the dud you know having

69:57

any kind of necessarily like material

69:59

effect in the world but I'm just the the

70:01

concepts in the way that

70:03

helps culture grow and exist you know

70:05

we're told that we are and we're kind of

70:07

pacified with a bunch of objects and

70:09

media and drugs and stimulation in that

70:13

which you know can distract us from that

70:15

but when you look at the actual health

70:17

of the culture itself I mean the u.s.

70:19

scores highest on all sorts of horrible

70:21

indicators that our society is

70:22

completely corrupt and broken you know

70:25

spent on a very deep a motive

70:27

you know psycho spiritual level our

70:29

society is collapsing you know and the

70:33

things that have moved in to replace

70:34

these intimate relationships with nature

70:37

and with you know our ancestral past and

70:41

with you know animal life and all that

70:45

stuff the things that have moved into a

70:47

place that have not been adequate for

70:48

play you can't replace those things you

70:50

know and so until we are downloaded into

70:52

a computer it's this is not really a

70:57

tent like a workable solution for you

71:01

know human existence so you know we

71:04

again we can be pacified to kind of

71:06

believe that we don't need those things

71:07

that we've moved beyond them but we when

71:08

you look at the levels of you know

71:10

mental illness suicide rate I mean all

71:13

sorts of indicators that show like you

71:16

know we're not doing good depression

71:18

alcoholism yeah oh yeah yeah I mean

71:21

addiction in the the the whole you know

71:24

nine yards that's another interesting

71:25

thing addiction actually in terms of

71:28

Santa Muerte and the drug culture one of

71:31

the things that she's known for so there

71:34

here's this narco st. right and

71:36

according to the US media and mainstream

71:38

media in Mexico here's a narco Saint who

71:41

you know is the the goddess of you know

71:45

drug dealers and all that stuff one of

71:48

the things one of the miracles that

71:50

she's best known for is getting people

71:51

out of addiction and carrying them of

71:54

alcoholism or heroin addiction or you

71:57

know whatever cracks whatever you want

71:59

so um you know that it's really

72:03

interesting to see how that you know I

72:07

get it again these kind of

72:08

contradictions that play out but also

72:09

the fact that this figure of death in

72:12

the you know in that cultural milieu

72:15

that's

72:16

comfortable with that even if they're

72:17

not comfortable to Santa Muerte becomes

72:19

a healing figure becomes a figure of

72:21

health and you know helping people's you

72:26

know mental state and emotional state in

72:28

curing them of addictions let's talk

72:31

about the spread of Santa Muerte

72:35

paraphernalia because it is I mean it's

72:38

it says ubiquitous as death itself and

72:41

just growing and growing and growing and

72:43

growing your colleague mentioned that in

72:45

his hometown of Richmond Virginia where

72:48

it has only a six percent Latino

72:52

population he found votive candles there

72:55

to Santa Muerte and that they sold very

72:58

very well yeah it's it was interesting

73:02

once you start to look for it you kind

73:04

of go out you start to notice that it is

73:07

more prevalent than you think I know

73:10

down here in Georgia

73:11

my niece found Santa Muerte candles at a

73:14

Kroger which is basically the de-facto

73:18

grocery store you know and they had

73:21

where at whatever neighborhood it was in

73:23

I think it was Stockbridge which is you

73:27

know sub metro Atlanta

73:29

they had Santa Muerte candles and I know

73:34

you know I know of a Botanica near where

73:39

I'm at I'm loved 40 minutes outside of

73:42

Atlanta there's a like a half hour drive

73:46

I can go to a Botanica that carries its

73:50

you know extensively carry Santa Maura

73:52

same stuff books statues some of the

73:56

more interesting devotional items like

73:57

the there's hands that have the

74:00

offerings already kind of sealed in then

74:04

with the figure of Santa Muerte in the

74:06

hand you know and you know stuff like

74:09

that and they sell that at this Botanica

74:11

which is quite close by me and then in

74:15

that same neighborhood there's a Mexican

74:18

grocery that has Santa Muerte candles I

74:23

don't know you know if you the further

74:25

out you go obviously

74:26

[Music]

74:28

into more rural areas I don't know if

74:30

you'd be able to find it unless there

74:31

was a heavy you know Latino population

74:34

but it is in pretty much every state you

74:37

know up in Chicago

74:39

the my friend was talking about how to

74:43

learn Spanish she would have to be

74:44

immersed and have to go down for an

74:46

immersion in Mexico and I just been to a

74:49

store right by his house which was a

74:52

Botanica that dealt with Santa Muerte in

74:54

Santeria and that was it you know so I

74:57

was kind of laughing at him because I

74:58

was like you know immersion just step

75:00

outside of your door you know so it's

75:04

yeah it's very prevalent and it's

75:06

spreading and with the botanicals I do

75:07

sell its goods a lot of them are saying

75:10

that you know well the Botanica that I

75:12

went to in Villa Park the proprietor was

75:16

you know she practiced Santeria and she

75:19

said she really didn't have any belief

75:20

in Santa Muerte or even know really what

75:22

it was or really care about it at all

75:24

but a lot of people were coming in and

75:26

asking for it and so you know a good

75:29

portion of her store's goods despite the

75:31

fact that she really had nothing to do

75:33

with the tradition with Santa Muerte

75:34

face because of requests for it you know

75:37

so it's you know it's definitely if you

75:44

live near a major city you will be able

75:46

to find Santa Muerte fairly easily you

75:48

know there was an article you did

75:51

recently on of course you've been

75:56

covering the whole Catholic controversy

75:59

especially interesting because there

76:01

they say that you can't sanctify death

76:04

just as much as you can't sanctify

76:07

obedience right you know that was those

76:11

kind of interesting to me of course to

76:13

bring that up because they're not flesh

76:15

and blood but one but there is an

76:18

interesting theology developing within

76:20

Santa Muerte where death is totally

76:26

illegitimate and petition Abul for sand

76:28

and one of the gentlemen who i think you

76:31

translated an article about is a card

76:35

reader i think i had his name up on here

76:38

but i don't have it anymore should i

76:39

pull it up yeah Hipolito garza

76:42

was he's a there was this great blog

76:45

post I don't remember the name of the

76:50

blog but great blog post this woman had

76:54

gone to the public market and Juarez and

76:57

met a spiritual worker there who does

77:01

tarot card reading

77:02

you know spiritual cleansing exorcisms

77:05

you know general spiritual worker work

77:07

but who was also Santa Muerte devotee

77:11

and yeah I mean the he he specifically

77:17

spoke about how he was you know he had

77:20

stepped away from the Catholic Church he

77:22

didn't feel that the Catholic path of

77:25

faith which involves you know baptism

77:30

communion confirmation

77:33

you know the different sacraments he

77:35

didn't think that the path of sacraments

77:37

was really effective for him that was

77:40

you know he kept saying this is my

77:42

personal belief but I don't think it is

77:44

and he said that you know he was one of

77:46

the folks who's said that you know they

77:47

petitioned the Virgin of Guadalupe it

77:49

didn't work petition st. Jude and I'm

77:52

assuming that was within like his

77:54

spiritual worker work because he said

77:56

that he was born into a family that had

77:58

taught him that tradition so you know

78:02

and that they weren't effective and that

78:04

when he went to Santa Muerte that she

78:06

was you know very effective that she was

78:08

she answered the the things and you know

78:11

he was he highlighted the neutrality of

78:14

it you know and said basically like if

78:16

you're gonna do bad that's not on Santa

78:18

Muerte

78:19

that's the individual you know and that

78:22

as the as the Catholic Church has gotten

78:24

more official in their condemnation I

78:27

think we're probably gonna start to see

78:29

more of that that kind of thing where

78:31

people you know what he said you know

78:33

again he's still recommended praying to

78:36

God before petitioning her and then

78:38

saying you know they are fathers

78:40

afterwards so that so yeah I'm sorry

78:44

those those were two things that caught

78:46

my attention there's a trailer to a

78:48

documentary that I saw which I cannot

78:50

find online it looks like I'm gonna have

78:52

to order the DVD which I haven't done it

78:54

not know how long

78:55

but the beginning of the trailer starts

78:57

with this mass group of people and the

79:00

first thing they do is as ask God's

79:03

permission to speak with death and that

79:07

was one of the things that started

79:09

welling the emotion up in me because I

79:11

was just like oh my gosh that is so

79:14

heavy right and the the other thing that

79:18

I wanted to mention right here was he

79:22

was talking about his theological

79:24

argument which was that from where he

79:29

was coming from Christ had to be touched

79:32

by death and that right can you go into

79:36

that a little bit yeah he'd say it's

79:39

interesting too because it comes into

79:41

not the personhood but the fact that

79:46

Christ defeated death in the passion

79:48

which is why the Catholic Church feels

79:50

that Santa Muerte is incompatible with

79:54

the faith he took that same story and in

79:57

his interpretation because Christ died

80:01

in the passion that he had to go through

80:04

death and therefore death was the the

80:09

one that God trusted enough to handle

80:12

his son's transition into the

80:15

resurrection so well for this guy yeah

80:20

for a lot of devotees that's not that's

80:22

not him alone that's something I've

80:24

heard in other places too

80:26

the very you know the passion itself

80:28

which the Catholic Church interprets as

80:31

saying you know Christ defeated death

80:33

death was the last enemy and that kind

80:35

of thing the Santa Muerte

80:37

devotees feel that well since Christ

80:40

passed through death to get to you know

80:42

the state of God had then obviously

80:45

death has a part in that and is the you

80:49

know again this second only to God and

80:51

power you know and he went into he went

80:54

into other things I mean he went into

80:56

details about it of you know if Christ

80:58

gave up all these worldly powers then

81:02

why why was death still necessary Christ

81:05

had already given up he'd already not

81:07

you know Satan and argue attempt to them

81:09

he didn't have to anything like that

81:10

then why why at the end of all that did

81:14

does death come into it you know and so

81:17

he said look in this you know in Garza's

81:19

opinion well death came into it because

81:21

she's that powerful you know now going

81:24

on that idea of how even the figure of

81:28

Christ had to be touched by Santa Muerte

81:32

array or the holy death you mentioned

81:37

also something about the Vedas oh no or

81:42

maybe it was maybe it was your

81:44

colleagues where they said the Vedas

81:45

that the Prince goes to death yeah yeah

81:49

yeah yeah there's a yeah there's a story

81:51

about the the a king makes a bet that

81:59

his best he makes it basically a king

82:02

makes a bet for his best possession so

82:04

if and he loses the battle so the best

82:08

possession turns out to be his son and

82:10

his son agrees that you know he'll be

82:14

taken to you know basically essentially

82:17

sacrificed you know and so the father is

82:20

like no I don't want you know I can't I

82:22

can't do that with my son I thought they

82:24

were gonna take horses you know I

82:25

thought they're gonna take some money or

82:27

something I didn't think they were gonna

82:27

take my son so the sons like no it's

82:30

dishonorable if I don't do this so you

82:32

know I'll go and I'll accept the

82:34

sacrifice so he gets killed and he goes

82:37

down to deaths palace and he knocks on

82:40

the door and nobody answers so he knocks

82:45

on the door again nobody answers so he

82:47

doesn't quite know what to do at this

82:49

point because he's been sacrificed in

82:50

this bet he's got to die that's not

82:52

there to take him so he waits it out and

82:55

death shows up and goes oh oh you know

82:58

I've made a mistake sorry you know I

83:02

wasn't home and you're here ash in here

83:05

that was really rude of me so what do

83:08

you want I'm not gonna take you but I'll

83:10

give you I'll give you what you want and

83:12

so the Prince asks for the secret of

83:15

death and death goes Oh even the gods

83:18

don't have that I take the gods you know

83:21

like you can't you can't have that

83:22

and he goes well you you weren't here

83:24

when I came here that was pretty rude

83:26

and that goes yeah you're right I owe

83:27

you something and I didn't you could

83:29

have whatever you wanted so here's the

83:31

sacred the secret of death and he gives

83:32

them something to probably not the best

83:36

way of putting it but it's it's not it's

83:38

like a fire ceremony that he's given so

83:42

you know a meditation on fire so it's

83:48

interesting to see the parallels there

83:50

with and I think that that piece I I had

83:54

written I don't know if I mentioned it

83:56

in the context of Santa Muerte I know

83:57

I've mentioned it in the context of the

83:59

Negrito in alchemy

84:00

oh well maybe we can just go right into

84:02

that because if we're gonna talk about

84:04

death and the mythology of death we

84:07

might as well jump right into Negredo

84:08

Negredo right here because you were also

84:10

the person who introduced me to alchemy

84:12

and at first I was like ah whatever and

84:15

then I then just like with the Santa

84:18

Muerte stuff like months later it comes

84:20

around to me and I'm like damn so we

84:23

might as well go like right into Negredo

84:25

blackness the fire and so on yeah and

84:28

then that was you know that in that

84:31

context Christ's death it's not in the

84:37

Bible it's not a biblical narrative but

84:39

within the kind of mythology of Christ's

84:43

death there's the idea of the harrowing

84:44

of how where Christ has to go down to

84:47

hell and save the people who had died in

84:51

sin because he had yet to be born

84:53

so the you know and in that he passes

84:59

through hell and then you have the

85:00

resurrection on the third day so go into

85:03

more I guess we should say real quick

85:04

what is alchemy and what in what sense

85:10

well I guess I guess if I had to

85:11

summarize that I would say that it's a

85:13

it's a it's a it's a set of spiritual

85:15

metaphors or spiritual technology that

85:17

has to do with turning a you know

85:20

quote-unquote

85:20

lead soul into a gold soul or the

85:23

Philosopher's Stone or a vessel that's

85:25

worthy of life and you see that in Egypt

85:28

too with the iconography of the scare of

85:30

the dung beetle and so on wait and

85:32

there's also the it's you can never

85:35

forget the practical and

85:36

right the and the fact that you know at

85:40

points in time it was very much a

85:42

specifically practical are the word a

85:44

lot of the early alchemical manuscripts

85:47

in that are on dying and basically

85:51

electroplating gold well you know in

85:53

creating gold substitutes and that kind

85:55

of thing so there's definitely a

85:57

material element to it which again I

86:01

think that you know it's another one of

86:03

those things that in our contemporary

86:04

society we have a really hard time

86:07

grasping the level at which the material

86:10

and the spiritual in tradition like

86:13

alchemy coming out of the influences

86:16

that it comes out of is working with and

86:18

that it's you know one of the the key

86:21

points in alchemy is that you know the

86:24

as above so below kind of concept where

86:27

the material and the spiritual are all a

86:32

part of the work you can never separate

86:34

those two things

86:35

now when you mean practical you're

86:36

talking about not just sitting around

86:38

thinking about lighting the fire of your

86:40

soul but actually doing sort of just

86:42

this chemistry work really yeah and you

86:46

know that you mentioned fire lighting a

86:49

fire you see like actually going out and

86:53

working with fire and going and working

86:56

with water and going out and working

86:58

with air because if you psychology if

87:03

you take psychology and you

87:04

intellectualize these ideas you're not

87:08

actually dealing with fire if you got

87:12

you can't like you can't just think fire

87:14

you gotta actually go deal with fire and

87:16

then see what lessons you can learn from

87:18

that and what does that mean to the work

87:20

that's and so you know people want to

87:22

jump right into lab work or even you

87:24

know the herbal alchemy stop but there's

87:26

some basic things that as a contemporary

87:29

person we you know a lot of people don't

87:32

deal with anymore like lighting a fire

87:34

keeping a fire tending a fire and then

87:36

when you start to get into the practical

87:38

work of actually working with the

87:40

materials there's specific temperatures

87:42

that you've got to get stuff to and if

87:44

you're working fully traditional you're

87:46

not working with

87:48

you know exact measurements and so it's

87:51

it's very much that you know that's why

87:53

it's an art because it requires a kind

87:57

of patience and that working with the

88:00

material you know and you can I don't

88:05

kind of a weekend a weekend example you

88:09

know would be you know doing like a like

88:15

a mandala or something like that you

88:17

know drop dollar where you're meditating

88:18

you're drawing you're working at or even

88:21

sculpting or any kind of art you know

88:22

where you're you're meditating on a

88:24

concept and then it's going through your

88:26

body and then it comes out in a material

88:29

form and if you're really fully working

88:31

with that there's a there's a

88:32

give-and-take with the material that

88:34

happens that you can you can get to

88:37

deeper levels with that and so you know

88:39

when we only talk about spiritual

88:40

alchemy and we only talk about sick you

88:43

know how alchemy is a type of psychology

88:44

or you know or if we only focus on the

88:47

material stuff and we say no it's early

88:48

proto Camus tree or whatever all those

88:51

things miss the integral nature of the

88:53

art itself and it's you know what it's

88:58

full functionality and it's full

89:01

expression you know and kind of vitality

89:04

so so before we close on alchemy the

89:07

goal is of course as I mentioned this

89:09

kind of idea of a soul that that becomes

89:12

worthy of alleged great work right yeah

89:15

it's refining the bringing the material

89:19

up to the spiritual and the spiritual

89:21

down to the material one last thing is

89:23

for those of you who like some good old

89:26

pulp fiction there's a short story and

89:28

the book haunted by Chuck Palahniuk the

89:30

one of the last ones called obsolete

89:32

where he describes a mass suicide taking

89:35

place on earth because they realized

89:37

heaven is on Venus and that you get

89:40

reincarnated and that the earth is a

89:42

rock polisher and it polishes you

89:44

through friction and heavy experiences

89:47

and things like this it's very similar

89:48

to the ideas of like karma and the wheel

89:50

and always turning but the joke and the

89:52

Palahniuk short story is that everyone

89:56

starts committing mass suicide and

89:58

clogging the spiritual recycling system

90:00

because

90:01

they're tired of living on earth they

90:02

just want to go to Venus on heaven so

90:05

sort of a similar idea there folks but

90:07

so that's alchemy let's rewind back to

90:10

what you were talking about my grade oh

90:12

and this Christ parable that's not in

90:15

the Bible

90:16

yeah the the harrowing of hell is uh I

90:21

don't know exactly when it came about

90:23

but it's you know definitely was

90:25

apparent in the Middle Ages you have a

90:27

lot of picture you know like paintings a

90:30

mat of the Christ going through the

90:31

harrowing of hell and it's the period

90:33

between his death on the cross and then

90:36

his God you know walking moving the

90:39

stone and walking out of the cave and

90:42

the story was that he was down in hell

90:44

you know basically defeating how and

90:45

bringing out the the souls who had died

90:47

who were their only sin had been to die

90:50

before he was resurrected

90:53

so with that you have this narrative

90:56

that then when you think about the in

90:58

terms of the the prints going down to

91:01

death and you know or any of the Orpheus

91:04

you know going into the underworld you

91:06

got it there's a ton of stories like

91:07

that which let me come focus through

91:10

this concept of harrowing of hell as

91:12

well I'm Hercules even yeah Hercule

91:15

exactly i we've got it's just

91:17

innumerable innumerable it's the hero's

91:19

journey you know I mean joseph campbell

91:22

all the things that he talked about that

91:24

kind of stuff so but it's you know it's

91:28

extra biblical that's not in the Bible

91:30

there's no description of what Christ

91:32

did you know in the that interim of

91:34

three days so but I think the fact that

91:37

it is extra biblical and that it comes

91:39

up is such a potent aspect of you know

91:42

kind of the folk faith shows that

91:45

whatever those stories relate to about

91:49

the hero or Christ or the prince or

91:53

whatever going down to death and having

91:57

that experience you know when you

91:59

mentioned Egypt earlier you know the

92:01

books of the Dead which were also for

92:03

the living it was an initiative kind of

92:05

mystery that concept of going to death

92:08

to gain the greatest secret of life

92:11

itself by Gilgamesh right

92:14

like that's the story so whatever that

92:20

whatever those stories are kind of

92:21

clustering around that concept is very

92:25

much prevalent I think in what we're

92:27

seeing with Santa Muerte the same kind

92:30

of question you know the same mystery

92:32

there you know except for like wit like

92:35

you mentioned earlier with the fact that

92:38

Santa Muerte is so prevalent in you know

92:41

folk culture street culture that here

92:45

you've got a tradition that death is

92:48

right there you know it's a grim reaper

92:50

standing right in front of you and

92:51

that's that moment of the prince meeting

92:53

death you know because you're not dead

92:55

yet and there's death so what's

92:58

happening and that gives that access you

93:02

know potentially for the person to have

93:04

that experience where they're given that

93:07

secret you know depending on their

93:09

relationship with that and their their

93:11

ability or you know whatever their

93:13

humility if they're worthy of it they're

93:17

given that confrontation simply by the

93:20

devotion you know so it's it's

93:23

incredibly egalitarian that you have a

93:26

story you know an ancient story from the

93:28

Vedas that discusses a prince being

93:30

given it you know and whether or not we

93:32

want to think of that as Prince in terms

93:35

of you know actual royalty or something

93:38

or a spiritual you know sort of or

93:41

aristocracy or something

93:42

here you've got a tradition that's

93:44

available to taxi drivers or whoever you

93:46

know similar to alchemy available to

93:49

everyone open if they can if they can

93:52

access it that promises in a certain

93:54

sense and the potential of the symbolism

93:56

and the iconography that's being worked

93:59

to have access to that the greatest

94:02

secret of life you know and the other

94:05

thing it brings to mind is I was it was

94:08

I was made aware of this theme of the

94:12

presence of death and initially sex and

94:17

society's mystery schools and

94:19

philosophical schools throughout the

94:21

Mediterranean where I mean you see it

94:25

also in Freemasonry and other groups

94:27

where the

94:28

first initiation is a a mock death or a

94:33

mock funeral which may or may not

94:35

include you know certain hallucinogens

94:39

or dissociatives that they as well as

94:42

you know ceremony and sort of things

94:43

like that I think this was even in

94:45

Pythagoras's school where the the whole

94:47

thing is about you have this this

94:50

introduction to death for the initiate

94:53

the possibility the potentiality the

94:56

reality of it and then if we take that

94:59

all the way back to this one we're

95:01

talking about right here alchemy the

95:03

first phase is the death phase and I

95:06

great O face and I can't help but think

95:08

about my upbringing which was more Zen

95:12

centric and when you look at kind of the

95:14

Zen mind Zen mind is about sort of

95:17

nakedness and it makes sense to me that

95:20

a Western mystical philosophical

95:23

tradition would begin with a negative

95:28

yeah that's with her being second only

95:33

to God I think that you mentioned Zen

95:36

you know and obviously in Zen Buddhism

95:39

that's one of the Buddhist traditions

95:40

that's farthest away from any kind of

95:44

deification of the Buddha you know with

95:50

with that kind of tradition Santa Muerte

95:54

as being second only to God and thus the

95:57

thing that kills all the other gods kind

96:00

of provides access to that sense you

96:04

know at least there's a potential for it

96:06

too which is I think one of the things

96:07

another sort of hazy aspect about Santa

96:11

Muerte she's very much very much

96:16

activated by potentials we see you know

96:21

this faith tradition kind of spring out

96:24

of nowhere even though it was you know

96:26

developing under the radar suddenly gets

96:29

a public faiths and then BAM you know

96:32

tons of books are published shrines pop

96:34

up everywhere seemingly out of nowhere

96:37

but the potential is always there and so

96:40

and when you start to look at her icon

96:41

the symbols that are associated with her

96:44

and what can be worked with that and

96:45

what people you know devotees are

96:46

already saying it's amazing to see how

96:50

those potentials become reality and the

96:53

lives of you know the people that work

96:54

with me the other thing about this image

96:58

that struck me when I really gave it the

97:01

attention it deserved is that I realized

97:04

when it comes to anthropomorphic images

97:06

you know some of the vogue at least in

97:09

the alternative spirituality community

97:11

some of the vogue goddesses or gods are

97:17

rather complex they have attributes you

97:19

have you know like Babylon and Philemon

97:22

of course you have Gaia and other sort

97:26

of more nebulous DIY style earth magic

97:31

type things and you have like these

97:33

these feminine goddess archetypes sacred

97:36

prostitutes etc but this that and you

97:41

know for example they take a look at

97:42

Babylon where you have a woman on a nine

97:44

headed dragon coming to town I think

97:47

it's nine heads maybe seven I forgot but

97:50

just that image is sort of like not very

97:53

easy to identify with you know

97:55

regardless of whatever you want to say

97:57

about it it's just alien to experience

98:00

now other anthropomorphic mystical

98:04

magical images like that of a child or

98:06

that of copulation you know more easily

98:09

identifiable to the average person and

98:11

what they mean and things like that but

98:13

it was the this anthropomorphize ation

98:16

of death and then recontextualizing her

98:19

out of this

98:20

you know which I want to go into after

98:22

this is the the previously sort of male

98:24

Grim Reaper and what that one was like

98:26

as opposed to Santa Muerte here that the

98:30

death icon a figure symbol meaning is

98:34

hugely more visceral to immediate

98:37

experience than a picture of a baby you

98:41

know new life and so on or images of

98:44

copulation where you have union yoga

98:47

religion Tantra etc but it's this this

98:50

death one on the far end where it's like

98:53

whoa that is where the real mystery

98:55

is because the real mystery is death

98:58

which is sort of outside of living

99:01

consciousness living consciousness can't

99:03

really approach

99:04

death and yet it is present right right

99:08

yeah exactly exactly

99:09

and if you think about it too the

99:11

fascination and will the reason that we

99:13

can read a symbol like a you know like a

99:15

baby or something like that you know

99:17

like things like a cherub or the eternal

99:21

child figures that show up and some of

99:24

the alchemical manuscripts in that the

99:27

reason that we can identify that is

99:28

because the child represents the death

99:31

of the baby which is then killed by the

99:33

you know next step in getting older and

99:36

we are no longer children and therefore

99:38

there's a bit the kind of death and

99:40

separation there so we're always seeing

99:42

things from these differences well what

99:44

are those differences those differences

99:46

are small deaths or little breaks

99:48

between the whole and you know that kind

99:50

of thing so what we're seeing it is the

99:53

way that you know what a devotee of

99:55

Santa Muerte

99:56

might say is that what we're seeing

99:57

literally is what Santa Muerte is

99:59

showing us you know and so again you've

100:02

the it just can always be reworked back

100:05

to this like you're pointing out I mean

100:07

Santa Muerte becomes such a basic figure

100:11

that all those other symbols get

100:12

consumed by the potential that she has

100:15

in her own iconography and symbolist

100:17

exactly and that's the thing that's

100:19

really blowing my mind is because I am

100:21

NOT an icon guy I am like you know I

100:24

find them fascinating I've played with

100:26

them I've done visualization things I've

100:28

like played with the available spiritual

100:31

technology market I was doing yoga when

100:33

I was like a preteen and you know

100:36

meditation at around the same time and

100:39

then even going into like techno ated

100:41

ones like binaural beat technology I

100:43

have never had a reaction to an icon

100:47

like the reaction I'm going through

100:50

right now with Santa Muerte yeah it's I

100:55

mean it's potent it didn't hit me

100:59

I kinda yeah I kind of had that I kind

101:02

of had that as well the initial research

101:04

I was kind of blown away by what it was

101:07

and was

101:07

and was

101:09

excited by that but a the the personal

101:14

rattle specs had really kicked in you

101:18

know and then I was I was really trying

101:20

to get into it because I'm not Catholic

101:22

I've never been to Mexico I've had high

101:29

school Spanish yeah trying to get into

101:33

the trying to get into studying it how

101:37

do how does one do that you know and so

101:39

I started really paying attention to the

101:42

iconography and really thinking through

101:44

what the devotees were saying and in

101:47

that process you know kind of had a

101:49

similar experience to yours where

101:51

[Music]

101:53

suddenly you're facing this you know

101:56

symbol complex or whatever that becomes

102:01

something more and has this whole thing

102:02

and starts to change the way that you

102:04

look at stuff you know and so it's it's

102:06

an even dealing with the the

102:08

condemnation from the Catholic Church or

102:10

you know statements from the US Marshall

102:14

other academic kind of surveys of the

102:20

tradition you know where they're coming

102:21

from and stuff like that that stuff

102:25

starts to get filtered through the lens

102:26

of Santa Muerte to you know where

102:28

because the icons so potent and simple

102:31

and just there and so directly related

102:33

to something that's so integral to you

102:37

know life right um you just start to

102:40

kind of see it everywhere and it starts

102:41

to kind of you know be you know almost

102:45

as if you're seeing like through the

102:46

eyes of Santa Muerte you know which I

102:49

and I would assume that if someone's

102:52

really really frightened by it and it

102:54

takes on some kind of you know in their

102:57

mind evil order you know satanic sense I

103:00

can see how somebody would be really

103:02

freaked out by that you know the fact

103:03

that yeah death is constantly like

103:06

around you and then you have this icon

103:08

or figure which reminds you of that that

103:10

you think satanic like that would really

103:12

mess with somebody's head yeah yeah and

103:14

that's that's that's what I'm sensing

103:16

right now is the threat because even I

103:18

at first was averted somewhat threatened

103:22

by it

103:22

but then it opens this whole door where

103:25

it asks you why are you averted to this

103:28

why do you feel threatened by it why do

103:30

you and so then at the same time

103:32

considering all these like you know

103:34

agencies and institutions and religions

103:37

that are threatened by it makes one

103:40

think about the maturity of the human

103:44

beings who are taking it into their life

103:46

where it's like no we really have to

103:48

have a dialogue with death like you

103:50

understand everything right everything

103:53

that you're talking about whatnot leads

103:55

to death everything that you're

103:57

proposing leads to death eventually so

104:01

we actually have to have a dialogue with

104:03

the phenomenon the process in some cases

104:06

the entity etc yeah exactly and that's I

104:09

think that's where you know we were

104:11

talking about the the commercialization

104:13

of it and that if you look at other

104:16

aspects of death in contemporary culture

104:18

in the United States in Europe and you

104:22

know around the world because of the

104:23

internet and global the you know the

104:26

folks who do well I mean I work you know

104:30

with the Observatory room up in Brooklyn

104:35

to put on events and morbid anatomy

104:38

library as a part of that you know it's

104:40

kind of a ryu know look at Deaf culture

104:42

and what is you know what's our

104:44

relationship with that the Medical

104:45

Humanities than that and then there's

104:47

the death salon you know which is

104:50

directly dealing its scholars and you

104:54

know artists and every you know

104:57

creatives and that coming together to

104:59

discuss what is death you know in

105:02

culture like because we're not looking

105:03

at it you know our culture is not

105:04

dealing with it but like you said we're

105:06

moving down a path in a lot of different

105:08

areas where we're causing extensive

105:11

damage and you know essentially

105:14

summoning death you know calling death

105:16

into the world so yeah I think that

105:20

dialogues it's completely necessary and

105:22

then we see this growth of Santa Muerte

105:24

which shows that obviously people are

105:27

thinking about this you know obviously

105:29

this is an issue you know and where does

105:31

Santa Muerte come up from it comes up

105:33

from you know the barrios of Mexico

105:36

where you've got corrupt government

105:37

officials corrupt cops you've got gangs

105:40

you've got you know every level of

105:44

violence like across the board and Santa

105:46

Muerte appears you know so I don't think

105:49

that you know I think our culture has a

105:51

hard time dealing with symbols because

105:53

they don't really know what to do with

105:55

them sure you know we either want to

105:57

either want to give it and say like oh

105:59

this is a symbol of a god or a goddess

106:01

or God or whatever right like you show

106:04

them the eye in a triangle and there's

106:05

so many different realities yeah yeah

106:08

exactly yeah and put this like really

106:09

heavy well narrative weight on it you

106:12

know or we want to completely dismiss it

106:13

and say it doesn't mean anything it's

106:14

crap and it's just a veil for something

106:16

else and these people are you know

106:18

narcos or whatever but you know like the

106:21

what the symbol when it crops up with

106:23

such crap L&C; is really saying is hey

106:26

guys wake up like this you know this is

106:28

coming like you guys are stewing in it

106:30

and it's gonna start appearing in your

106:33

dreams

106:33

and you're the symbols that crop up in

106:36

your life the symbols that you associate

106:38

with and feel comfortable with those are

106:41

all signs that that thing is there and

106:43

present and common you know it's kind of

106:45

like you know like a skin rash shows you

106:48

that you're having an allergic reaction

106:49

you know when you start to see death

106:52

cults pop up you're living in a society

106:55

where death is a huge issue you know

106:59

yeah and this this brings me to

107:02

something I wanted to talk about which

107:03

was kind of unplanned and came to my

107:06

mind a while ago before we got on here

107:11

because otherwise I would have sent you

107:12

a message about it earlier so you had a

107:14

chance to think about it but it but it

107:15

is kind of a strange concept and that is

107:20

the threat of death that death isn't

107:24

just threatening in the sense of like

107:26

one day one will die but that forces

107:29

agencies institutions regimes religions

107:33

and just your neighbor you know if

107:36

you're in the wrong neighborhood will

107:37

threaten you with death so in other

107:40

words death is a kind of punishment

107:42

death is a threat it's a death threat so

107:45

I mean it's kind of strange but when you

107:48

think about it what is

107:49

one army due to another army well we're

107:51

gonna threaten you with death that's

107:53

what we're gonna do

107:54

death and destruction right right now

107:58

that to me is kind of interesting how

107:59

when it comes to the threats that's the

108:01

threat is that we will kill you right

108:05

exactly and that's that's exactly why

108:07

you have contract killers and people

108:10

like that who work with Santa Muerte not

108:13

just to make their kills efficient or to

108:16

not be caught by the cops but to work

108:19

through their feelings and fears of

108:21

death because of the fact that they

108:22

issue that threat of death and then also

108:25

know that that could very easily come

108:27

back on them you know and so how do they

108:29

work through that fear that was that was

108:31

an interesting thing when I started

108:32

looking at Santa Muerte and looking at

108:34

this tradition I was I was working at a

108:38

music store right out of college and the

108:43

the currency exchange next door got

108:46

robbed and in the process you know since

108:49

I was there and a friend of mine was at

108:52

the story at the time since we were

108:54

essentially witnesses to it we got held

108:57

at gunpoint and my friends an idiot this

109:04

is why I wanted to bring David on every

109:05

way I wanted to bring him on because

109:07

he's always got like something like this

109:08

like I was held at gunpoint my friend

109:10

was totally well no Ivan we're sitting

109:13

outside like we're we're sitting outside

109:15

having a cigarette at this music store I

109:18

had the I had the phone sitting next to

109:20

me and the next thing I know is some

109:22

guys reaching for the phone and people

109:24

are rude you know like I figured like oh

109:26

he needs to use the phone so I look up

109:28

and I'm you know facing a nine

109:30

millimeter God and I was like oh no like

109:34

the average night at the Music Store you

109:36

know in suburban Chicago like this is

109:38

different so I you know was like whoa at

109:43

this point like what do you do well my

109:45

friend smoking the cigarette and we go

109:48

you know the guy's telling us to get

109:50

back in the store and my friends like he

109:52

tells the guy who's holding the gun to

109:54

us he goes oh I've got a I've got a

109:56

cigarette I can't you know I can't go in

109:59

the store and the guy looks at him like

110:01

are you insane I'm holding

110:02

ain't you like you need to get in the

110:04

store you know he's like oh yeah okay

110:05

I'm sorry like throws the cigarette but

110:08

I mean this was this was at that point I

110:10

was sure that we were gonna get shot

110:12

then the guy tells me to face the wall

110:14

the way that the thing was positioned I

110:15

couldn't face the wall so I'm facing

110:17

this guy while he's like wandering

110:19

around with this gun and I look at him

110:22

and I'm like oh crap the dudes on coke -

110:24

so he's coked up he's got this gun he's

110:27

sweating like crazy he's nervous his

110:29

friend is robbing the currency exchange

110:31

and he goes to steal CDs and none of the

110:35

CDs are in the case so like as this is

110:37

progressing all I'm seeing is

110:39

everything's going wrong in this

110:41

situation I'm gonna have a bullet

110:43

straight through my head in about a few

110:45

seconds to a minute here and it all

110:47

turned out okay

110:48

there was no problem I talked to the guy

110:51

like was fine with it like came to a

110:55

realization where I had no choice there

110:58

was nothing I could do I was either

111:00

gonna die or not die and it became

111:02

really calm and so afterwards I found

111:07

out that the whole robbery was set up by

111:09

a corrupt cop and who had gotten

111:13

people's personal information to

111:14

blackmail the we're not even blackmail I

111:17

guess extort the currency exchange clerk

111:21

and so when I started dealing with the

111:24

Santa Muerte tradition and reading about

111:27

it and thinking about what the symbol

111:28

meant I realized that in a way that

111:31

moment where I had that gun on me was

111:34

very similar to what people describe you

111:36

know where Santa Muerte saves them and

111:38

so I started thinking about that in

111:40

terms of I was in a moment where I was

111:42

sure I was gonna die and very well could

111:44

have died and the peace that that

111:47

entailed and the release that that

111:50

entailed and what does that mean through

111:53

this symbol sack so I had like a very

111:55

you know and have a very visceral

111:57

connection to that I can access that

112:01

level of the tradition you know and

112:03

think about it so you know I just think

112:08

it's a very powerful way to in our

112:12

contemporary we've got drone pilots that

112:14

I mean

112:15

mind you know I mean drone pilots that

112:17

are killing people in computer games but

112:19

they're really killing people and you

112:22

know death is becoming distant and

112:25

strange but still having psychological

112:27

effects and so you know you have

112:30

something like Santa Muerte and it's a

112:33

way to like use the word conversation

112:36

you know to have a conversation with

112:38

this this thing that's so prevalent and

112:42

yet so distant you know in our lives and

112:44

unless you've had like a Drex

112:46

you know experience with it like I've

112:48

had car accidents and stuff like that

112:50

where I've walked away from flipped over

112:52

cars so again thinking about that in

112:55

terms of the symbol set and the ideas

112:57

behind Santa Muerte has really given an

113:01

interesting you know insights into the

113:03

tradition and at the same time the

113:05

traditions given me insights into my own

113:09

experiences with that you know and I'm

113:12

glad you brought up the drones because

113:13

even the United States I mean we've been

113:15

talking about developing a an oppressive

113:19

this death culture here for quite some

113:22

time now I mean the rise in homicides by

113:28

you know people who are supposed to be

113:30

protectors police officers I'm not

113:32

trying to just nag on police officers

113:35

because I would never do that because I

113:37

know many of them are are very sincere

113:39

about justice and the law which I'm very

113:41

sincere about - I don't really subscribe

113:44

to an Antarctic Way of view I think that

113:46

you have law if you don't have law you

113:48

don't really have anything but it has to

113:50

be like legitimate law in other words

113:52

everyone has to follow it but when you

113:55

see in America with the rise of the

113:57

drones as you mentioned as well as the

114:00

rise in homicides by police officers I

114:06

mean I just read on Facebook this week

114:08

where a kid was shot in a pickup truck

114:11

because someone wanted to prove a point

114:13

or something like that his grandfather

114:15

or something was just utterly ridiculous

114:19

I'd say it they become ludicrous they

114:21

become absurd and it and it's like well

114:24

we have to have a conversation with our

114:25

protectors but besides that take in mind

114:28

something

114:29

like habeas corpus or the rise of you

114:32

know certain legislation in the United

114:34

States where it's basically like well

114:35

you know you don't even have a trial and

114:37

in fact we can sort of kill you if we

114:39

want to I mean that's why Rand Paul and

114:41

company had that filibuster a few months

114:45

ago wherein they were on the floor

114:47

saying can the president legally murder

114:50

a US citizen which which has already

114:52

happened twice from what I understand at

114:54

least with drones and I think one of

114:57

them was a child so there is this you

115:00

know a for a place that is trying to

115:02

stand for justice you've justice and law

115:06

to see this kind of thing where death is

115:09

sort of like well we'll actually deal

115:10

death like will straight deal death and

115:13

you know why not now again that's not to

115:16

put the whole onus on that institution

115:18

but to say that it is very real it's a

115:20

very real thing so to to see it spread

115:24

to the United States in ways I mean I'm

115:26

not really surprised it's it's the whole

115:30

war situation I mean it's a it's a

115:32

country based on war in the military

115:34

industrial complex etc it doesn't always

115:36

have to be that way but that's what it

115:38

is right now so the whole sort of

115:40

reality is around this new legalization

115:44

of death and from that I'm really not

115:46

surprised that you have a figure like

115:47

Santa Muerte showing up who is you know

115:50

death but also a kind of like antidote

115:53

to that crisis and also I mean that yeah

115:57

definitely

115:58

definitely in Hannah doe to it and a you

116:01

know as you said before not not

116:05

necessarily a negative figure you know a

116:07

figure that's very conducive to

116:10

communication and that you know within

116:12

the daikon agraphia and her tradition

116:14

and I think something it's interesting

116:17

as I was as as you were talking about

116:20

American death culture and you know the

116:23

military-industrial complex and all that

116:25

the one thing that a lot of people don't

116:29

talk about anymore we talk about drones

116:31

we talk about the you know the

116:36

the surveillance state and all that kind

116:38

of stuff right is the fact that nuclear

116:40

weapons exist right very powerful

116:43

nuclear weapons right now our arms and

116:48

waiting to be fired and we invented them

116:53

here it was there was a whole global

116:56

effort to invent them and they were

117:00

tested in New Mexico and they were

117:03

tested in Hawaii we dropped him on Japan

117:06

they've been used we have more powerful

117:09

ones now we've got Fukushima blasting

117:12

radiation into who knows why follow and

117:16

we've released the death genie out of

117:19

the bottle we're not just you know it's

117:21

not just drones and the military and

117:24

police and all that right literally

117:26

right now dying period right we release

117:29

nuclear energy it's we don't have a

117:32

culture that can handle it we don't have

117:34

responsible leadership that can handle

117:35

it and we live under constant threat of

117:38

immediate annihilation right and in that

117:43

situation you know Burroughs wrote about

117:45

this Burroughs wrote about how America

117:49

had you know and I don't know if you can

117:53

even really say America because Germany

117:55

was going for the bomb - I mean

117:56

everybody was going for the nuclear

117:57

thing so Billy a global effort but we've

118:01

gone to Beth's door and there's no

118:05

turning back you know I mean there's

118:07

either enlightenment or there's gonna be

118:09

some kind of catastrophe it's not a

118:12

point where we're you know maybe the

118:14

king will die and we'll get a better

118:16

regime right no replacement no

118:19

replacement for government or anything

118:21

is gonna solve the fact that we have

118:24

Unleashed radiation to levels that will

118:27

eventually destroy us if we don't set it

118:30

off faster yeah there's notes if there's

118:33

no escaping the atom bomb right and that

118:35

question is something that we kind of

118:38

dance I mean the Fukushima thing you

118:40

know like sort of awaken people to that

118:42

but the the issue of nuclear energy is

118:46

vital to

118:49

you know just realizing that we are not

118:52

we're not in control of things you know

118:55

there's something's been released that

118:57

can't be put away you know and that

118:59

that's another reason that I think I'm

119:02

kind of a you know if if you can save

119:05

subconscious or you know symbolic level

119:08

or whatever I think that's another thing

119:10

that's playing into the Santa Muerte

119:12

stuff you know is that as a global

119:14

culture we're we've already passed the

119:17

tipping point you know yeah the the

119:21

other thing that it brought to mind of

119:23

course is you know

119:25

Oppenheimer I am become death the

119:27

destroyer of worlds

119:29

right I mean that's that was a real that

119:32

was a real moment it's like it's like

119:33

humanity at least from what we know

119:35

there are some researchers out there who

119:37

say like I mean even Oppenheimer himself

119:39

said we've done this before you know in

119:41

a kind of ominous sort of way where he

119:43

was implying that that human

119:45

civilizations have come and gone based

119:48

on atomic power right and whether or not

119:52

that's true the suggestion is certainly

119:55

real today well and going back to going

119:59

back to alchemy too if you look at folk

120:02

and alley one of the key elements of

120:05

folk analysis social commentary is about

120:10

nuclear energy and about the nuclear

120:12

question really yeah and that it's a you

120:18

know it with Oppenheimer saying you know

120:22

I've become death destroyer of worlds

120:23

and you've got Jack Parsons summoning

120:26

right you know Babylon for the

120:29

apocalypse and then going to work on the

120:33

you know Manhattan Project in that

120:38

there's a big question there of what

120:40

happened in that moment in history and

120:44

symbolically what does that mean and

120:46

what does that mean for what we're doing

120:47

right now and the fact that we have a

120:50

major movement that's bringing you know

120:54

a figure of death forward as a popular

120:56

cult figure when the last time that that

120:58

happened was

121:02

on a small scale at the end of the

121:05

century in France is reaction to the

121:08

French Revolution other small-scale was

121:12

prior to Nazi Germany when you had a big

121:14

upswing in decadent art and other times

121:19

have been the plague deaths and that so

121:22

when you start to see these death

121:23

symbols you know even if you look at the

121:26

current scholarship on this stuff look

121:29

at the times when those symbols became

121:31

prevalent what was going on in society

121:33

and then think about how prevalent it is

121:35

now what we kind of ignore it at the

121:37

same time and what does that mean for

121:40

what's going on and you know what could

121:41

be kind of coming down the line and not

121:44

only that but you know you can't not

121:46

neglect Damien Hirst's for the love of

121:49

God the status skull adorned with grace

121:54

right and then it making an appearance

121:56

in jay-z music video and then indeed the

122:01

entire weird like and weird in a lame

122:05

way I would like to mention there's

122:07

there's a lot of people who harp on like

122:10

we the it really yeah weird in a lame

122:14

way where they like where people tend to

122:16

harp on the the presence of you know

122:19

occult and esoteric imagery in a popular

122:24

hip-hop pop music pop R&B; and that kind

122:27

of thing and how it does have a kind of

122:29

death centric you know resurrection

122:32

exorcism type of thing and and that's

122:34

like that's more of a lame

122:36

interpretation for me it's like it never

122:38

really it actually I never thought the

122:40

occult could suck until I really like

122:43

watched what the music industry could do

122:46

with it post like say Led Zeppelin in

122:48

the hair bands and all that like heavy

122:50

metal stuff one's kind of like hip-hop

122:52

you know it's like what I call its hip

122:54

pop it's not hip hop it's hip pop once

122:57

that kind of like picked up on all these

123:00

kind of like occultist themes I was Nev

123:02

never been more disappointed in a genre

123:05

of music you know I thought I was gonna

123:07

hate the 80s forever you know growing up

123:10

I thought I was always gonna be like I

123:11

just don't get with those synthesizers

123:13

man just sounds too robotic

123:14

but seeing them in their performances

123:16

and their over-the-top glitz and glam

123:18

and type of thing it's like you know it

123:20

it's so it gives it you know if their

123:25

satanic they give Satanism a bad name I

123:29

kind of like that jay-z video okay it's

123:33

addictive it really is the chant the

123:35

chant I've got I don't know I've I like

123:41

pop music

123:42

yeah you know I'm neutral too it's a

123:45

lesson that stands where to hit stop

123:47

means to be neutral to to pop music such

123:50

a hater that's that you know that that

123:54

song grew on me for it's for the fact

123:58

that you could pick it apart and have a

123:59

lot of fun with it cuz it is this kind

124:01

of you know bizarre hypnotic chant on to

124:03

the next one would take these

124:05

suggestions of mammon going on and all

124:07

this stuff yeah and human sacrifice and

124:09

stuff because all the people portrayed

124:11

in it are dead

124:11

it was I didn't even notice that is that

124:14

right yeah they were all dead and next

124:17

one man on to the next like that the

124:21

potential see that's what I think they

124:22

are called potential in that song like

124:24

Anna necromantic potential in that right

124:26

is uh it's pretty uh it's pretty fun I

124:31

mean a conspiracy like the conspiracy

124:35

stuff goes not so over it sure you know

124:37

it like I think those I think that maybe

124:38

one of the videos were like they

124:40

actually pause it like at a certain

124:41

point where Satan's face appears and

124:43

like a flame somewhere you know like off

124:45

to the like left-hand side or something

124:47

yeah I mean like that one that one's for

124:50

deep analysis by the experienced the

124:53

conspiratorial crowd so yeah that's a

124:55

that's a they go through it almost

124:57

shot-by-shot yeah yeah it's I mean in

125:01

some ways if you look at like if you

125:03

look at very detailed but not very new

125:06

clots kind of history where the person's

125:09

gone till like a really like the scholar

125:11

goes in and just like picks apart like

125:13

you know like just almost down to like

125:17

the the skin flakes level of Street you

125:20

know but there's really no nuance to it

125:21

but it's really helpful when you're

125:23

looking for those skin playing details

125:25

that's what I think kind of

125:27

paranoid conspiracy stuff is good for

125:29

because like every aspect of it and it

125:33

may be a jumbled mass once it gets Chino

125:35

gather into the picture that's presented

125:37

but there's so many different details

125:38

and facts there that you can kind of go

125:40

in and you know very carefully like

125:43

unpick the facts and kind of explore

125:45

meet different little areas of history

125:47

and you know social psychology that's

125:51

great this is it's good for a break

125:53

right there you want to take another

125:54

five and then we'll like see if we do a

125:56

little more yeah cool man All Right see

125:58

you okay we're back and look to close

126:41

the segment I have a couple more

126:42

questions wanted to ask you and this is

126:46

about well there's two aspects to this

126:51

part of the conversation and that's kind

126:53

of the rise of female centric you know

126:56

deities or forces or which have you and

126:59

I mentioned this earlier and something I

127:01

wrote today where it seems that the

127:05

modern

127:05

altar the modern all spiritual mind is

127:09

interested in you know Gaia Kali Babylon

127:14

eros with the discord ian's and these

127:17

kinds of things and now we have Santa

127:19

Muerte showing up and just kind of

127:22

thinking about that how it's moving from

127:23

the you know sort of masculine phallic

127:27

interpretation of sanctity and divinity

127:31

and so on to this female oriented when I

127:34

wondered if you had any thoughts or

127:36

ideas about that it's interesting with

127:39

the

127:40

the development of Santa Muerte because

127:43

there's a couple different skeleton

127:46

Saints in Latin America there's a San la

127:50

muerte which is a male figure there's a

127:54

rapist squall who's another male

127:57

skeleton figure and there's Senor la

128:02

muerte which is kind of similar and

128:05

maybe tied into Santa Marta but those

128:11

have actually they have a developed cult

128:15

persona where they're they're tied to at

128:18

least a mythical if not a historical

128:20

personage so you would think that they

128:26

would have an easier time developing

128:27

into something as fully as full-blown is

128:32

what's going on with the Santa Muerte

128:33

tradition but they haven't and they

128:36

they've been around you know as open

128:40

[Music]

128:42

traditions longer so you know for some

128:46

reason Santa Muerte took off where they

128:50

did you know and was able to you know

128:53

grow in ways that they haven't been able

128:55

to and so that it is interesting that

128:58

you know here you've got a female

129:00

representation of death that takes on

129:03

qualities that death really has never

129:06

taken on him you know in u.s. culture so

129:09

despite that neither is these male

129:11

interpretations of death down in the

129:13

same area they're not catching on as

129:15

much as the feminine up here in you know

129:19

northern New Jersey New York and the

129:22

Brooklyn area when it comes to the old

129:24

spirituality community the first time at

129:26

least I bumped into the notion of the

129:27

goddess was through Terence Mckenna

129:29

and he always harps on the goddess and

129:32

divine energy and then later I picked up

129:34

a book much later I picked up a book

129:36

called the sacred prostitute which was

129:38

by a Jungian analyst for young in

129:40

analysts and just seeing this rise this

129:45

return of like the female oriented

129:47

archetypes

129:49

I'm sure you've sort of bumped into it

129:51

as well

129:53

I mean it's it's interesting in terms of

130:00

again this is another area that I have

130:03

difficulty with because of the the

130:07

contemplative tradition never lost that

130:10

so in terms of the influences that have

130:16

been important you know in what I would

130:18

have always been interested in studying

130:20

since I was you know like a kid it's

130:24

always been kind of like related to like

130:26

the troubadour tradition or you know

130:28

it's always had like an aspect of kind

130:30

of the Divine Feminine so you know

130:35

thinking about what kind of drivers

130:36

there are I think one of the things that

130:38

is a flaw in my own research and that is

130:41

that I usually only research stuff I

130:42

mean I'm interested in you know I mean

130:46

it's kind of it in some way it's kind of

130:47

like piqued my curiosity so I don't

130:50

always have like the the objective

130:51

distance from it so to see like the

130:54

development of like I mean cuz there's

130:56

obvious social drivers and the fact that

130:58

you know we live in a culture that's

131:00

very male-dominated and it's again we

131:02

live in a flawed culture so there's kind

131:05

of like a return to a balance you know

131:07

that's necessary to bring those out you

131:10

know and then but with the

131:11

popularization too I think that a lot of

131:13

the the alternative spiritualities that

131:16

came forward because of what the

131:19

alternative culture was you know because

131:23

if you think about the the different

131:25

things you had the you know women's

131:26

rights you had gay rights you had free

131:29

love you know and you have free love

131:30

back into like the 1800s you know or I'm

131:33

sorry like back into the forever

131:36

I mean you know there were Gnostic

131:37

heresies there were free love heresies

131:39

William Blake was part of a Christian

131:43

sect you know practice at times sort of

131:47

free love ideas so you know that's

131:50

always kind of improvement but those

131:51

those ideas that have always been kind

131:54

of tied to the alternative have been

131:57

tied to that sense of you know what we

132:00

would consider like a minority group in

132:03

terms of power in society that's always

132:05

the alternative

132:06

you know so it doesn't surprise me that

132:07

the alternative spirituality in kind of

132:10

society that consistently refers to God

132:14

is him and that kind of stuff you know I

132:18

mean it would just make sense then that

132:19

the alternative spirituality would be

132:21

feminine you know don't you yeah yeah I

132:24

think you're right in some in the sense

132:26

that it's maybe that it's not so much

132:29

alternative anymore where now it's

132:30

becoming mainstream where it's becoming

132:33

the you know the thing that is no longer

132:35

alternative although it's not what you

132:38

know maybe most people consider the norm

132:42

Santa Muerte differs very strongly from

132:46

a male interpretation of the Grim Reaper

132:49

yeah there's no I don't think there's

132:54

any loving male Grim Reaper's well I

132:56

guess actually no that's not true

132:59

Azazel you've got sick lela lela Waddell

133:07

the necrophile down in Louisiana

133:13

I think Wow well she runs like a like a

133:19

death cult

133:19

kind of thing but she's she's real open

133:22

about her practice and she feels that

133:25

she's got a relationship with the Angel

133:26

of Death who I think in her senses like

133:29

is a male presence you know so buddy I

133:32

mean that obviously didn't catch on but

133:34

I don't think we have like a huge at

133:37

least not publicly so but it definitely

133:41

done yes Santa Muerte doesn't have the

133:43

same kind of aggressive wow that's not I

133:46

don't know because she there's an

133:48

aggressiveness to it it's different

133:50

though yeah it's subtly different than a

133:52

male let me I'm thinking yeah the

133:54

thought that came to my mind is or at

133:56

least the elements of the Grim Reaper as

133:58

a male form is that you have a kind of

134:01

trickster persona and one who will play

134:03

games of either chance or skill with you

134:05

and then at the very end we'll just sort

134:08

of you know take you in a way that he

134:12

cashes in with a sort of industrial

134:15

indifference and that even though Santa

134:18

Muerte

134:15

indifference and that even though Santa

134:18

Muerte

134:19

the feminized version of this you know

134:22

does have a kind of neutrality and

134:24

indifference in the sense that Death

134:26

Comes to all she seems to enter in a way

134:30

where she's actually welcomed where in

134:32

the Grim Reaper even if it's the skull

134:34

on the desk of the thinker the

134:35

philosopher reflects on the skull subtly

134:40

different you know having the Grim

134:43

Reaper man in the room with you is kind

134:46

of a scary notion but having the Grim

134:48

Reaper woman in the room with you is

134:50

it's strangely hugely more calming and

134:55

welcoming as a reality I found at least

134:58

and the other thing he brought up which

135:00

I didn't expect was this talk about when

135:03

communing with Santa Muerte this idea of

135:08

silence how there's a silence and

135:10

there's vacant eyes but yet there's a

135:13

kind of transmission that's an on

135:15

transmission can you go into that yeah I

135:19

mean that was that was something that I

135:21

I came to through just trying to you

135:26

know access the tradition because it's

135:29

not the none of the textural materials

135:33

really effective for doing that and it's

135:36

really something that you've kind of got

135:38

to access because I mean if you look at

135:39

the the iconography is you have to work

135:44

with it's not it's not it's easily

135:46

decodable you know as most iconographic

135:51

symbolism because it's so simple in a

135:53

lot of ways so you know in some ways

135:57

comes out of like a very commercial

135:58

context but it gets such powerful you

136:02

know kind of results from the devotees

136:03

you know reactions and that but I found

136:07

that the only really effective way was

136:09

to actually you know get down in with

136:11

the iconography and actually kind of

136:13

relate to it and and work with it and

136:17

yeah there's a kind of silence there

136:20

which Dona kata talks about and it comes

136:23

up I think in the in a documentary that

136:25

you're you referenced earlier where a

136:29

guy's taking his kid to the Santa Muerte

136:32

right and you know the kid looks at the

136:34

thing and the guys explaining you know

136:36

this is this is my godmother this is

136:39

your godmother and all that stuff and

136:40

the kids reaction is like she's got

136:42

empty eyes you know she's got eyes so

136:45

but that struck me is really profound

136:48

you know because again it plays into the

136:50

concept of neutrality and all this stuff

136:52

it's a really powerful symbol with it

136:53

you know in that silence as well there

136:56

was something that don't okay to

136:57

mentioned which had been something that

136:59

came out of from Eve when I was was

137:02

looking at the iconography had kind of

137:04

gotten that sense and then Dominic ADA

137:06

said it as well that was sort

137:07

interpretation of it was the the silence

137:12

but the silence the answers you know in

137:14

a way that you know you kind of talked

137:17

about earlier that goes beyond you know

137:20

that you know it goes into that state of

137:23

non-being you know yeah it's it was

137:28

surprised I think that's one of the

137:30

other reasons why I was so struck by

137:31

this by Santa Muerte was that there was

137:35

an immediate dialog in the idea that

137:38

just one day you will look like this one

137:41

day you will be this I'm this right now

137:44

but one day you will be this - right

137:48

yeah had that you know Gnostic level of

137:51

of really a kind of profound acceptance

137:56

right there I mean and I and the other

137:58

thing that I wanted to mention about

138:00

looking at that documentary footage and

138:02

and some of the newsreel footage I've

138:04

been watching all of this good stuff

138:07

will be linked below by the way is that

138:09

you it's it's so strangely comforting

138:15

it's you know just this idea and the vid

138:19

to see it to see people talk to this

138:22

death icon which is supposed to

138:24

represent death the reality was

138:28

something that I wasn't able to

138:30

anticipate or prepare myself for the

138:34

emotional reaction to it because you

138:36

realize people will talk to all kinds of

138:38

fairies they'll talk to aliens they'll

138:40

talk to

138:41

they'll channel aliens they'll talk to

138:44

spirits they'll talk

138:45

- you know you know they'll talk to the

138:48

most obscure deities out there but very

138:50

very few will talk to death let alone

138:54

and adorned death one that one that is

138:57

actually I mean it's it's gonna sound

139:00

weird to people who haven't spent time

139:03

with this icon but it becomes like

139:06

profoundly beautiful in that in its just

139:10

utter reality that one will be this and

139:12

that one's speaking with it right now

139:14

yeah that I you know you've got like a

139:17

name like La Nina Bonita like the

139:19

beautiful girl you know diamond and

139:21

they're serious about that like you hear

139:23

the the devotees are very you know

139:26

explicit about the idea of how beautiful

139:28

she is and how you know look at this

139:30

beautiful powerful woman you know that

139:33

is death you know and and just like

139:36

lauding you know just the beauty and the

139:39

profundity of it and it's it is

139:41

interesting because you know no matter

139:43

what your association with it if you

139:47

don't dismiss it you know and you

139:49

actually spend time with the symbols it

139:53

does it takes on that that realization

139:55

you know and there is there's there's a

139:58

meditation where you meditate on

140:02

dissolving to a skeleton then the

140:04

skeleton disappears in life and that

140:07

that is there is a meditation tradition

140:09

based on that I don't know if it's

140:11

Taoist or Buddhist or what you know what

140:16

tradition that comes out of but there is

140:20

that there is that tradition there is

140:22

that meditation technique and what's

140:24

interesting is thing again you know with

140:26

the the idea that being confronted with

140:30

this symbol of death you're literally

140:33

confronted with death and then able to

140:34

have that relationship that goes back to

140:37

the ideas like the harrowing of how and

140:39

the prints going down to meet death and

140:41

that in looking at the iconography like

140:44

you described and you know this idea of

140:45

thats going to be me and that kind of

140:47

thing you have access to things very

140:51

similar to the you know the skeleton

140:55

meditation so

140:58

you know or there's there are Taoist

141:01

meditations like those meditations on

141:03

the skull and that kind of stuff so you

141:06

have within this folk tradition access

141:10

to some of the most sophisticated

141:11

contemplative traditions right simply in

141:15

the invitation to because a lot of the

141:17

stuff that gets missed when you know

141:21

let's say you go to a yoga class or

141:23

something like that

141:24

are you fully devoted in a loving way to

141:26

yoga usually hot not to yoga maybe to

141:29

getting it to getting healthy to get

141:31

whatever but not to yoga and if you go

141:34

and you go into that yoga class and I

141:35

like o meditate on this skull it's you

141:37

it's whatever you don't have that that

141:40

kind of relationship you may you may

141:42

access that but it's not necessarily

141:44

encouraged by the experience but when

141:46

you're faced with this figure and you

141:48

don't dismiss it and you have that

141:50

interaction with it there's an

141:52

invitation there to not worshiping

141:55

devotion but just a devotion of love to

141:58

this thing that is always with you you

142:01

know and it starts to speak on that

142:02

level and because of that it doesn't

142:06

have the artificial artificial 'ti that

142:09

yoga has and because it's so terrifying

142:10

because it's not necessarily an

142:12

initially Pleasant meditation or a

142:15

pleasant invitation to conversation with

142:20

an idea or a mat you know a

142:22

contemplation or a symbol set because it

142:26

has that unpleasantness if you go

142:27

through that it has a level of

142:30

engagement again that encourages a type

142:33

of relationship that's not the same as

142:36

if you just go to yoga class or if you

142:37

you know learn meditation or do you know

142:40

anything kind of self-willed you know

142:42

now that's great because it can take us

142:44

right into a psychedelic dialogue right

142:47

there because you can't talk about

142:48

transformation and yoga and

142:50

enlightenment and meditation without

142:52

bringing up a psychedelic component

142:55

right there

142:56

it's definitely is that the new the new

142:59

psychedelic era we cannot discuss any

143:03

form of we approaching altered states of

143:06

consciousness unless we in some way

143:08

address the psychedelic question because

143:10

we

143:11

out in the psychedelic era because of

143:14

terence mckenna's CIA a clap to thoughts

143:18

the whole society to pig yeah that's

143:21

what I heard I heard that this was all a

143:23

major con from the beginning to end and

143:26

that we and and that the whole like

143:28

ayahuasca situation is a front this it

143:33

doesn't have to do with the real power

143:34

the CIA wants you to hallucinate

143:36

yourself and together to make neither

143:38

the merge this the rumor around the

143:42

campfire right now is this yeah around

143:46

the glowing digital campfire that's

143:48

beyond Irving is spreading the bird on

143:50

the like well at the same time

143:54

supporting psychedelics there's some

143:58

there's some sort of amazing looping

144:01

paradox there which again is the

144:02

nitpicky detail weirdness that you can

144:04

kind of you know if you're a good

144:07

Discordian right you're real good

144:12

discarding that's so wonderful it's so

144:17

wonderful no I meant like just bringing

144:19

it up in the sense that you know yoga

144:21

Zen psyche Delia NASA MLK like all this

144:27

stuff kind of showed up at almost the

144:29

same time at least for the American

144:31

consciousness you know so it's it's not

144:33

to say that yeah yeah yeah yeah no but

144:36

it's just another it's just another you

144:38

know facet to this thing is that you you

144:39

can't knock it I mean cuz even even even

144:41

the even the Santa Muerte devotees

144:44

there's like classic to use marijuana as

144:47

a incense and an offering and to blow it

144:50

you know on this statue so I mean I just

144:52

wanted to bring that up and that's

144:54

another thing too that I think like

144:55

people in the u.s. like just don't seem

144:57

to react well to that yeah I mean like

145:01

obviously unless like the people are

145:03

smoking themselves like and then they

145:05

kind of rejoice for it but like they

145:07

don't react well I know there was one

145:09

there's one news program and I don't

145:13

know it was like I think it was like a

145:14

Travel Channel kind of thing and the guy

145:16

went down to look at the Santa Muerte

145:19

shrines

145:20

and he happened to be a guy who really

145:21

enjoyed cigars so as a juror

145:24

he was really kind of weirded out and

145:26

not to end the whole Santa Muerte thing

145:28

until he realized that he could be in a

145:31

sanctuary smoking a cigar blowing it on

145:34

the statue and that was considered a

145:36

devotional thing and then he kind of got

145:38

into it he was kind of like yeah I like

145:40

this you know yeah I would like that too

145:43

sorry you were saying oh no ya know I

145:46

mean so they that was in some ways that

145:48

can be a bond but I think most people

145:50

are kind of weirded out by that you know

145:52

that your people are especially like

145:54

cigarettes and stuff like that where you

145:55

know people are smoking cigarettes and

145:57

blowing it in their face and that's

146:00

sharing the cigarette with her that's

146:02

that's kind of a long tradition to the

146:04

tobacco and the dead and that in a lot

146:07

of Latin American traditions is very

146:08

probable so yeah I am I really like that

146:13

a lot and I could see why they call her

146:15

cabrona because she's like part of the

146:17

people part of the family like you're

146:18

not gonna hide things from her what you

146:20

like she likes that kind of thing you

146:23

know I mean especially if it's gonna be

146:24

you know something like cigarettes right

146:28

yeah exactly very down-to-earth you know

146:30

yeah that's that's the other thing is

146:32

that the discrimination that we see the

146:35

lack of discrimination that we see

146:38

around Santa Muerte Santa Muerte is

146:40

embraced by people who identify as

146:42

Catholics by people who do not identify

146:44

as Catholics by you know transgendered

146:50

persons prostitutes

146:55

you know people people in the sex

146:56

industry people in all kinds of people

146:58

in a you know in places where when you

147:01

approach the church as this person

147:03

you're turned away yeah yeah that was

147:06

the story of our Lee who's the shrine

147:09

holder in Queens right um you know she's

147:13

trans the Catholic I think the priest

147:16

actually told her during confession why

147:18

are you here you don't belong here and

147:21

she had some intense experiences where

147:23

she was fearful of I think a friend had

147:27

recommended that she petitioned and I

147:30

kind of Santa Muerte or take a picture

147:32

of Santa Muerte home with her or

147:34

something but she at first was afraid

147:36

and then

147:37

a kind of profound experience with it

147:39

and now she's the you know the Guardian

147:42

for the shrine in Queens so it's

147:46

definitely trans they have gay lesbian

147:51

bi trans definitely huge maybe not huge

147:58

I don't know it's hard to tell cuz it

147:59

there's real there's really no

148:00

statistics on the number of people who

148:02

follow it you know that's definitely a

148:05

prevalent part of the the cult of

148:08

eastern Mexico you know and probably a

148:11

bottom you know well she doesn't she

148:14

doesn't like push people away you can be

148:16

poor or rich or young or older or

148:19

whatever but the whole idea is that

148:21

death comes mother death will always

148:23

come the holy death will always come for

148:25

you so you don't have to worry what you

148:28

have to worry about is trying to have

148:31

some kind of happy death and what does

148:33

it mean for you to have a happy death

148:35

right now that brings us to I guess you

148:40

know how you can't you can't not look at

148:44

this this neutrality in a miracle work

148:47

that you find with the Santa Muerte

148:49

without kind of bumping into the classic

148:53

latin maxim of tenant NOS or no sei's

148:56

know thyself and through this kind of

148:59

wish magic you get a kind of mirror

149:02

image of your soul because whatever you

149:04

ask of Santa Muerte is gonna directly

149:07

reflect the quality of your

149:09

consciousness where you are as a being

149:11

developed and so on and and your honesty

149:14

which we also see back with the

149:15

marijuana and the cigarettes is that

149:17

this is a kind of honest deity that you

149:19

don't have to play games with you know

149:22

this the the transaction seems pretty

149:25

simple is that if you do something for

149:27

it it'll do something for you and you

149:29

can be whatever you are because she is

149:31

always arriving or always here right but

149:35

the with the with the same like you can

149:37

you will do something for her a lot of

149:39

that is pretty intense in some sense

149:43

where you know people promise sections

149:45

of their skin to it you know so

149:49

a lot of the tattoos that come out of

149:52

the tradition are there for prayer that

149:55

was granted so the person dedicated that

149:57

portion of their flesh to Santa Muerte

150:01

you know so in that sense the give and

150:04

take is you know it can be pretty

150:05

extreme they can you know up here that

150:08

with another you know kind of lost in

150:11

translation thing is the idea of like

150:13

the level of what a gift to Santa Muerte

150:16

can be well you know that's funny that

150:19

it just it just brings it just brought

150:21

something to my mind is that the more

150:23

the more one petitions and does these

150:25

transactions with Santa Muerte and has

150:28

positive results the more holy death you

150:31

will find in the world in the form of

150:33

icons altars images t-shirts statues

150:38

tattoos you will or poems or

150:41

what-have-you or whatever it's gonna be

150:42

is that the more centum where I take

150:45

works the more Santa Muerte will take

150:49

over our world yeah that's a good boy

150:52

that's a good that's a very good point

150:54

yeah yeah and the barometer is rather

150:57

striking because from the statistics I

151:00

got from your colleague it's something

151:02

like 10 million people as I mentioned

151:05

from Chile to Canada yeah and there's no

151:08

way to tell really fully I mean the the

151:12

the commercial stuff may be an indicator

151:16

that botanicals are some became Samba

151:21

tanika's in LA in that are reporting up

151:23

to fit like 50% of their income comes

151:25

from Santa Muerte

151:27

so enough to keep open a store I'm about

151:31

to recommend to all my friends who have

151:34

spiritually based shops that he should

151:37

really stock up on Santa Muerte stuff

151:39

because I mean you know I want to buy it

151:41

I want to shit you know it's a very

151:43

potent platform obviously I mean even

151:46

just for me as like a totally novice

151:49

gringo who just bumped into this thing

151:51

thanks to you it's like wow the okay

151:54

going back to what I was going to say

151:56

about the psychedelics is that the

151:58

reason why I harped on it was because of

152:00

the trance

152:02

that suppose it right I think it's

152:04

legitimate right because you see like

152:06

Columbia University doing work with

152:08

psilocybin and cancer patients facing

152:10

death anxiety Accenture I think it was

152:12

Columbia Bay have been in New York

152:13

another New York institution but I know

152:15

it was something very prestigious like

152:17

that but this idea that you know when

152:21

one focuses it on an icon or a deity or

152:24

a goddess or something like that

152:27

generally though not exclusively I think

152:30

we find that it has to do it there's

152:31

always this element especially in

152:33

religion and philosophy and whatnot you

152:35

know of the transformation and that one

152:39

has a relationship with an icon or a

152:42

text a scripture a Dharma or

152:44

what-have-you

152:45

where a relationship is being fostered

152:48

and you know I'm in my own case when I

152:50

was younger of course you know ravaged

152:53

by hormones and my teens Buddhism made

152:55

like a lot of sense because it was like

152:56

oh you just calm down man you just chill

152:59

out

152:59

hey you just look like this just be a

153:01

dude man just be a dude but you know in

153:04

later years of course like you get into

153:06

it and so like the desired thing goes

153:08

out the window

153:09

but the you're like ya know let's ride

153:12

this snake fuck it yeah sorry

153:15

excuse me excuse me but I wonder if I'll

153:20

keep that in but the the this this like

153:27

well you know for me personally as an

153:30

icon I can appreciate a figure like

153:33

Christ and esoteric and mystical kind of

153:37

sense in the standard sort of Protestant

153:39

or Catholic version it kind of falls

153:42

flat for me but when you look at them as

153:44

like you know the magician archetype or

153:46

something like that it becomes more

153:47

attractive or as one half of the

153:49

alchemical process with Mary then that

153:52

becomes kind of attractive as well but

153:55

generally it doesn't really do much for

153:56

me icons don't really do it for me

153:58

they're kind of fun to experiment with

153:59

but they don't really do it for me I

154:01

don't feel them like transforming me

154:03

they're appealing for a while and then I

154:04

kind of dropped them with my initial

154:09

reaction with Santa Muerte is like this

154:12

could really do serious good

154:16

transformative work and that's why I

154:17

brought up like the psychedelics for

154:19

example where it's if you have a

154:22

relationship with this thing it feels

154:24

like and from the testimony I'm seeing

154:26

coming out of the Spanish community is

154:29

that it looks like that that this is

154:32

working it's working for them and it's

154:35

spreading so I mean that was something

154:39

like let's can you talk about like the

154:41

transformative element of associating

154:44

with this thing well and also I think

154:45

you know it's interesting when we see

154:50

the the iconography kind of come out in

154:53

the commercial products that most people

154:55

are seeing in the US and they if you go

154:57

on like at sea or Amazon t-shirts are a

155:00

lot of like Katrina Calavera influence

155:03

Day of the Dead kind of stuff but when

155:07

you look at the devotees pages on

155:10

Facebook and that there's a ton of

155:13

psychedelic artwork like really weird

155:15

collages like really like like birthday

155:19

balloons and like like confetti with

155:23

like Santa Muerte and a birthday cake

155:24

and stuff you know with like a thank you

155:27

it's you know and it was another thing

155:30

where the my first thought I was like

155:31

the hell is this you know is this and

155:36

then I was I started to look at it and I

155:38

was like oh wow this is just somebody

155:40

who's so moved that they went into

155:43

Photoshop or whatever they had maybe not

155:45

even Photoshop like you know whatever

155:47

like plank right right this collage that

155:51

they spent enough time to literally cut

155:54

out the birthday cake and cut out the

155:55

Santa Muerte statue picture and put it

155:58

into this collage with a thank you on it

156:01

and blast that to the public as a thank

156:04

you with no signature or anything but I

156:06

if you think about it like that's you

156:08

know the cutting and stuff like that

156:10

that's a good half hour to an hour or

156:12

more work depending on how good you are

156:14

with those you know digital tools and to

156:19

do that as a thank you to Santa Muerte

156:20

and to also have it be so innocent you

156:24

know that it's like a birthday cake with

156:26

some balloons and

156:27

the Santa Muerte statue um that was

156:31

amazing to me but the colors are like

156:33

incredible and you know they've she's

156:35

like floating in space and there's like

156:37

asteroids behind her it's like these

156:40

really intense collages all this you

156:42

know different really kind of

156:44

psychedelic artwork

156:45

you know so she kind of has that aspect

156:48

just and encountering her you know that

156:51

very colorful transformative very

156:54

vibrant and lively yeah I mean you look

156:56

at like the dough Nikita's son makes

157:00

wigs for the thing that's where one of

157:03

the Linea Bonita the the pretty girl is

157:06

usually associated at least around the

157:09

Tepito area with the santa muerte

157:11

statues that have wigs on to make her

157:14

pretty you know so there's there's just

157:18

this amazing aspect to it that I think

157:20

you know if you think about putting a

157:23

wig on a scalp chance that feud that

157:25

something of a psychedelic experience

157:27

they're like there's something kind of

157:29

hallucinatory about that something some

157:32

kind of announcement you know the word

157:34

psychedelic comes from like announcement

157:36

of the mine right now and when you're

157:38

putting the wig on a skeleton their mind

157:40

is announcing something beautiful dig

157:42

there's an announcement from the psyche

157:44

happening right there so I think yet

157:48

definitely just the devotions itself

157:50

have kind of a special e I mean for you

157:54

know we keep I don't even know how to

157:56

term it's a us or whatever I mean it's

157:59

such a diverse you know there's really

158:01

no generalities you can make butter I

158:03

would think that the majority of the

158:05

people in the u.s. to put a wig on the

158:07

skeleton for them would be somewhat home

158:11

you stand for take them out of their

158:13

normal state of being and give them some

158:16

no questions especially if they did it

158:17

in love you know maybe that's the whole

158:22

take home for this whole conversation we

158:25

when all said and done

158:27

find yourself a skeleton put a wig on it

158:30

love it and see what happens you know

158:33

just if you want to go the Santa Muerte

158:35

route that's probably the recommended

158:36

way because there's some kind of

158:37

traditional basis there

158:39

makes it a little bit safer and you're

158:41

not gonna get super weird with it but

158:43

like maybe just the wig in the skeleton

158:47

would be enough for most people in the

158:48

United States to get them out of the the

158:51

general technological mass media digital

158:54

make like a slipper and you know oh my

158:58

god oh man thank you one what the other

159:06

thing on on just the because I mean I

159:08

imagine and you know yeah we can skirt

159:11

it if if you'd like but I I imagine for

159:14

your case since you're spending so much

159:16

time on it you're running the website

159:18

skeleton st. and you're working with our

159:22

Android chestnut right now and it looks

159:25

like a lot of like literature material

159:28

and media could come out of this thing

159:30

that I mean I could imagine my I see

159:33

myself spending time I mean there was

159:35

times where I was kind of interested in

159:36

like well let's see like look at the

159:38

Golden Dawn let's take a look at the

159:40

Lima let's take a look at you know you

159:42

know Peter Carroll and these kind of

159:44

guys with sort of methodologies and

159:45

modalities and ideas are they playing

159:47

with and you know it just kind of feels

159:49

like a tangled web of you know just

159:52

stolen stuff not that that's a bad thing

159:54

not that it doesn't have effect but when

159:57

you when I you know spent time looking

159:59

at this Santa Muerte figure it was just

160:02

like you could feel that could feel the

160:05

change already happening and the kind of

160:08

the funniest things I like the most

160:10

anecdotal example I can give is that I

160:12

have a door in my room that creaks to

160:16

high heaven and it's the most unnerving

160:18

creak that you can hear you know I've

160:23

had people in my house like where their

160:24

hair raises because I got a window open

160:26

and my door creaks I mean it's just bad

160:28

it's just this bat and whenever it

160:30

creaks I always get up and close the

160:32

door entirely this is like a tick I've

160:35

had for years ever since I've had this a

160:37

door in my life I have been closing it

160:39

because it's just not a cool sound

160:42

it feels really bad like whenever you

160:45

hear whenever you hear this door creak

160:47

you feel like anything could be on the

160:49

other side and it's totally legitimate I

160:50

don't care

160:51

like what world you live in but here

160:53

this Creek it feels like it's announcing

160:56

you know the horror of the deep yeah get

161:00

ready but as I'm looking and I'm telling

161:03

you this is a tick this is something

161:04

I've always always always done and yet

161:08

last night when I'm looking at the same

161:10

time where it Santa Muerte material no

161:13

kidding

161:13

my door creaks and I let it go and I let

161:18

it go for like 20 minutes and it creaks

161:20

and since I always close the door

161:22

it creaked in new ways because I'm

161:26

always like shot up close the door but

161:28

this time I like let it open because I

161:30

was literally feeling the fear and

161:32

feeling it Milt just from looking at

161:36

this icon the Santa Muerte and as it was

161:39

melting I'm not even kidding the door

161:41

took on this new dynamic range of

161:44

creaking that I previously had no idea

161:47

was capable of and it was much more

161:48

sinister and horrible sounding like it

161:51

was just John Carpenter at the door you

161:53

know well that's great though cuz that's

161:55

like you know people pay to go to noise

162:00

performances that probably aren't as

162:02

evocative as you through Santa Muerte

162:06

were able to have an experience last

162:08

night that was probably someone's like

162:11

dream in Berlin or something you know

162:14

you or you were able to experience a

162:16

symphony that no one has heard the

162:18

private performance by the elements you

162:22

know it's it's funny you mention it

162:24

because I have there's been I got really

162:26

attached to my house here in New Jersey

162:28

probably more so than I should but for a

162:31

while there's a threat that like

162:33

everyone we're moving out you know that

162:35

happens every couple of years and it

162:36

turns out we're not and what I always

162:38

wanted to do is create an experimental

162:40

album called house music where I'd put

162:42

like a microphone in each room and

162:45

record it for several hours and then put

162:47

together like a 18 hour long album

162:49

called house music like this is what the

162:50

basement sounds like this is what my

162:52

creaky door sounds like it might come

162:57

out one day yeah inspired by Santa

163:00

Muerte you'll have to give a thanks in

163:02

there Oh she'll be on the cover

163:04

she'll be on the cover of a lot of my

163:05

stuff right now my fucking Facebook is

163:07

already covered by well that was that

163:13

Matt's tags the editor for dissing Co

163:16

well when I think I was up in Chicago

163:21

from Georgia and I've been researching

163:25

for I think two days straight and it was

163:28

just I I had I had a ton of stuff to do

163:31

and I was presenting somewhere and I had

163:33

to do a bunch of stuff so I was I was it

163:36

was over stressed like overtired and I

163:38

was researching Santa Muerte and you

163:41

know I was struggling through the

163:42

translations on the Spanish and I like

163:45

broke the point where I was like I don't

163:47

even care that I can't read Spanish I'm

163:49

just gonna read it you know right and so

163:51

I was able to read more than I had been

163:55

before when I was struggling with it

163:56

which was awesome so I started doing

163:58

more translations than that and I

164:00

started posting that you know links to

164:04

some of the stuff that I was finding but

164:05

I was posting it in Spanish and like

164:07

posting quotes from some of the prayers

164:09

and that and Matt's tags from disinfo

164:12

sent me a note and he was like are you

164:13

okay going insane because it was all

164:17

this escapes like all these skeleton

164:20

yours and then like you know Holmes

164:22

about love of the Grim Reaper and that

164:25

you know like all this great stuff that

164:26

I was finding and that was like I'm kind

164:29

of concerned by like what's going on you

164:32

know and I didn't know you was serious

164:34

because I was excited you know so I was

164:36

started quoting back to him in Spanish

164:38

it was exciting and then he got like

164:40

really concerned and so yeah it can

164:43

definitely it can take you know

164:46

definitely because it's so it is so

164:48

potent and it is it is once you get into

164:51

it I know I've been joking and stuff

164:53

like that but it's a beautiful tradition

164:54

you know so I think yeah I don't know it

165:00

definitely has that ability to kind of

165:01

skirt and yeah there was a joke earlier

165:04

where David said that he was someone

165:07

someone was concerned that maybe he'd

165:09

drunk drank the Santa Muerte kool-aid

165:11

and I told him I was already swimming in

165:13

a pool of it so we should probably do an

165:16

interview

165:18

yeah no it's in also you know if you got

165:21

the editor of disinfo asking you if

165:23

you're okay okay as you're frantically

165:27

posting you know tons of Santa Muerte

165:29

information yeah you know and that's

165:32

that's how people react to it though I

165:33

mean you know people are on people who

165:35

you would not think are really unnerved

165:38

by the whole thing just because of the

165:41

iconography and kind of how it's been

165:43

portrayed in the media people get real

165:45

uncomfortable if they don't have a good

165:47

explanation for it you know and

165:49

something I was gonna talk about with

165:50

the potency to you'd mentioned you know

165:54

coming from like the Golden Dawn and

165:55

chaos magic and that kind of stuff sure

165:58

um

165:59

again something that I don't think you

166:02

know it's possible here in the US to

166:03

access it still I mean there's still art

166:06

folk traditions that are alive in that

166:07

but most people who are looking at magic

166:09

or the occult and that kind of thing

166:10

aren't going to where the folk

166:12

traditions exist that's right when you

166:15

encounter Santa Muerte

166:16

you know you encounter it in the u.s.

166:18

through kind of like the ax culture so

166:20

it seems like one thing and then when

166:22

you start to tap in deeper you it's not

166:24

you know because it's actually a

166:25

tradition it's a faith tradition it's a

166:27

devotional tradition this isn't a

166:29

magical system or you know in the way

166:31

that we would think of it or you know

166:35

this isn't somebody you like going back

166:37

to folklore and kind of building

166:39

something like this is literally a

166:41

tradition that has grown from the ground

166:44

up you know and for whatever influences

166:46

folklore and that kind of stuff and

166:48

academics and that have had on it it's

166:51

very much a true folk tradition so when

166:56

you encounter it you're not just

166:57

encountering an idea second hand or

167:00

third hand or whatever and kind of

167:02

reworked for the society right you're

167:04

really encountering a living tradition

167:06

that's still in the really interesting

167:09

thing about it is that it's still in

167:12

development so you're encountering a you

167:15

know a living faith tradition that has

167:18

come from the ground up it's come from

167:20

very very raw elements of you know

167:23

symbolism in that very potent potentials

167:26

still growing still developing and

167:29

inviting

167:30

people to engage it you know so it's a

167:33

different feeling than coming to you

167:36

know something like the golden dawn or

167:38

you know chaos magic or something like

167:40

that

167:41

right where those are kind of either

167:43

they're established or there's a certain

167:46

rules and play that one builds with or

167:49

uses this is really more like really

167:52

dealing with an actual and I love that

167:54

we're bringing up devotional where it's

167:56

like no you have a devotional

167:58

relationship with death as process and

168:01

it's been it's it's this female version

168:04

of it which grants wishes and whatnot

168:07

but that's what you're having a

168:08

relationship with it makes me wonder

168:10

this is it's so decentralized which is

168:12

one of the other reasons why I'm so

168:13

excited about it is because it's truly

168:16

avant-garde it's truly the avant-garde

168:20

spirituality that all right that I'm

168:22

aware of at least right now at least

168:23

it's far more avant-garde than you know

168:26

and I'm not trying to knock people down

168:28

but we were having a me and you know one

168:33

of the one of the people who's

168:35

associated with one of Crowley's

168:38

spiritual systems were joking about

168:40

peaches the model or the actress who was

168:42

coming out saying like I love the öto

168:44

the oto is great and we were saying like

168:46

well she may have done more for thelema

168:48

and Crowley did right there in that

168:49

moment but just as kind of like a joke

168:52

but on the side here the idea that no

168:55

this isn't a system this is you working

168:57

with this entity it's like entity work

169:00

and in a way at least that's what I want

169:02

to call it so because of that what do

169:06

you have to say about any kind of texts

169:08

or squares or prayers or things that are

169:12

coming out because like you said it's

169:14

it's being born right now and it might

169:16

start - it might it might not be but it

169:19

might become less potent once it becomes

169:22

organized in a way I mean I mean well I

169:25

you know it would be hard to see it

169:28

becoming organized um simply because

169:32

right now I mean if you if you look at I

169:34

don't think they'll ever be like an

169:36

Orthodox Church of Santa Muerte you know

169:39

and if you look at the way that it's

169:41

going right now in terms of

169:44

Church structure all the different

169:47

sanctuaries and shrines in that they all

169:49

have different very very strong

169:51

personalities that run them and take

169:54

care of them

169:55

and the each shrine has its own history

169:58

and each of the people that are shrine

170:00

holders have their own very potent

170:02

histories so it's very much related to

170:07

the communities that she comes up in and

170:09

the people who feel devoted enough to

170:13

create a shrine and in their stories you

170:16

know it's very because again the

170:18

accountant graphing in symbolism and

170:20

there's no there's no origin man there's

170:22

no backstory to it there's no you know

170:28

account of a birth and you know whatever

170:30

there simply is Santa Muerte

170:32

and so you know and we can go back into

170:36

historical and you know things that led

170:38

into it but as a tradition there's no

170:40

origin myth you know the Devi shrine

170:43

holder kind of has a different story for

170:44

what's in where take came from and you

170:47

know how that how the iconographic

170:48

developed so with that I don't think

170:54

they'll ever be a centralization you

170:57

know it's a very almost you know I need

171:00

if you look at the the one time you'd

171:01

mentioned the bulldozing of the the

171:03

shrines on the border right that came

171:06

right after or right around the time

171:08

that David Romo who was the Archbishop

171:13

of the Santa Muerte Church in Mexico he

171:20

got he got okayed by the Mexican

171:24

government you know he got the okay to

171:26

be an official Church he got like the

171:27

official sanction and he then proceeded

171:31

to declare a holy war on the Catholic

171:35

Church all out like the current

171:38

president what the the bulldozing of

171:41

those shrines like in a way was also the

171:44

action to what was going on because of

171:46

the centralization of Santa Muerte into

171:49

this very contentious thing whereas now

171:53

most of the shrine holders don't get

171:55

that political with this stuff at all

171:57

so even in terms of the Catholic Church

171:59

and that they're very careful about how

172:01

they talk about things so and they don't

172:05

really necessarily have rivalries and

172:09

they don't really necessarily have

172:11

connections other than that they're all

172:15

with you know they're all practicing

172:17

this devotion to Santa Muerte and like I

172:20

said each of them have a different story

172:22

you know la madrina Vargas

172:26

whose holds the shrine that has the

172:29

largest Santa Muerte statue her son was

172:33

a devotee and she was a devout Catholic

172:37

her son was killed under questionable

172:39

circumstances and I think he had a

172:42

hundred or so bullets in his body when

172:44

they found him Wow um so she bowed to

172:48

Santa Muerte that although she was a

172:50

faithful Catholic if Santa Muerte

172:52

granted her vengeance for her son's

172:54

death that she would she would you know

172:59

pay that back by running the shrine and

173:01

keeping it going

173:02

and by bringing Santa Muerte sneem into

173:04

the public so a couple months passed

173:09

she felt that that had been fulfilled

173:11

and so now today she's the shrine holder

173:15

for that shrine and she holds you know

173:17

the mass I don't know she holds masses

173:18

but shield services and you know has a

173:23

has a Facebook presence and is a you

173:26

know a big centralizing factor for that

173:29

community that community you know she's

173:31

always talking about community issues

173:34

about missing children's reports you

173:38

know who needs how what's going on so

173:41

she's very active in the community

173:42

through the presence of Santa Muerte

173:44

Dona que de has the Santa Muerte shrine

173:48

and she's known you know people come to

173:50

her for advice and stuff like that so

173:53

she's very much community leader there

173:55

so really what you see instead of

173:57

centralization is you see kind of

174:01

communities centralizing around

174:03

themselves around the figure of Santa

174:06

Muerte there's this neutral ground

174:08

you know so that

174:10

hopefully as it grows I mean the

174:12

question is is because a lot of what I'm

174:14

seeing is that the second that it comes

174:18

into the United States the commercial

174:19

elements start to like really explode

174:21

and then you also start to have

174:23

conversations with really strong social

174:28

faith traditions you know in like scenes

174:31

and stuff like that that start to try to

174:33

appropriate parts of it so it'll be

174:35

interesting to see what that you know as

174:37

because even you know starting to get

174:40

out to Europe and stuff like that like

174:41

the products a lot of the products that

174:44

are sold are made in China you know so

174:46

there's a presence and shops in like

174:48

Hong Kong and that so it'll be

174:51

interesting to see what happens when she

174:54

goes to international and yeah maybe

174:58

loses some of the community centeredness

174:59

of the tradition there's two things I

175:02

would like to mention from that and one

175:03

of them is this was a hot article when

175:06

it came out but that there was a vey vey

175:09

an American Apparel in New York City and

175:11

for those of you who don't know if Vevey

175:13

is a traditional who do sort of like

175:16

symbol portal magical symbol thing and

175:19

it was right in the middle of this in

175:22

the it wasn't you know baby is food ooh

175:25

it's the the gate for the gods that's

175:28

like the gods signature that's like one

175:30

of a sacred like you know aspects of the

175:34

ritual and here it that represents the

175:36

low you know right the lower exactly

175:39

exactly and so here it is in the front

175:41

display window of this New York City

175:44

American Apparel store and you know you

175:48

can't help but look at it and go like

175:50

you know in my case like ah damn you

175:54

know it's just kind of like and it was

175:56

the it was the I don't know the name of

175:58

the law yet but the one that guarded the

176:00

crossroads the Crossroads lower leg row

176:03

yeah and here it is there the other

176:07

thing that you just brought to mind

176:08

which is what we're doing right now and

176:11

I didn't realize it but this is the

176:13

whole folk religion element of it is

176:16

that it is decentralized what happens

176:19

you have an entity or a force or a

176:22

practice or something

176:24

people engage it and then they get

176:25

together and this is what all the

176:27

documentary stuff I've been seeing is

176:28

people get together and they start

176:30

telling stories about what their

176:33

experience with this thing was right

176:36

yeah exactly yeah if you think about a

176:38

lot of yeah most of the media out there

176:41

is the anecdotes and what you don't see

176:44

in the other thing that's interesting to

176:46

you that's earlier about what you know

176:47

resources and that kind of stuff yeah I

176:51

can only think about a handful of books

176:54

in English honored um almost all of the

176:56

materials in Spanish so if you don't

176:59

know Spanish or you're not willing to

177:00

like dive in there and learn the Spanish

177:04

there's really not much out there in

177:06

terms of the resources other than the

177:08

statues in the visual you know the kind

177:10

of artistic visual stuff but when you do

177:17

actually look at the Spanish material a

177:18

lot of it there's a book called legends

177:21

of Santa Muerte which are anecdotes and

177:25

stories around around people's

177:27

experiences either fictional or real

177:30

regarding their experiences with Santa

177:32

Muerte and a lot of the devotion to

177:36

Santa Muerte magazine is based around

177:39

people's stories so yeah you're right I

177:42

mean that's a huge part of this this

177:44

tradition at any folk tradition is

177:45

telling those stories about what the

177:47

gods of Donder in this instance what you

177:50

know Santa Muerte has done what death

177:51

has done for you in the same way like

177:53

what do we do naturally even if death

177:56

isn't personified in this way as it is

177:58

with Santa Muerte but we tend to get

178:00

together and talk about those who died

178:02

times where we almost died what do we

178:05

think about dying and you can't help but

178:07

think of you know I think it was a

178:09

Cornel West talking about Plato what his

178:11

philosophy is philosophy is about how to

178:13

have a good death right yeah yeah holy

178:18

holy death a good and all that well we

178:22

passed the three-hour mark which I was

178:24

hoping we would and we might do this

178:26

again but David what's going on with you

178:29

right now and the skeleton st. and

178:31

liminal analytics and all this goodness

178:34

right now I'm so

178:36

defying the project with Shannon Taggart

178:38

where we're putting on those talks we

178:42

recently hosted Stanley krepner to talk

178:45

about his dream telepathy stuff the

178:48

experiments they did in the 60s and 70s

178:51

in Brooklyn and we're solidifying that

178:55

into a new project that's gonna focus on

178:58

material evidence of immaterial things

179:01

so how do you know these kind of

179:04

imaginal complexes appear in our world

179:06

through material objects and those and

179:11

then two upcoming webinars one is on psy

179:16

which I'm co-hosting with Craig Wyler

179:18

for Evolver and then another one on

179:22

sacred geometry it's gonna be our second

179:24

sacred geometry webinar that I'm gonna

179:27

be co-hosting with Scott holes so those

179:32

are coming up and the details are not as

179:35

of yet final but those should be

179:38

appearing on the revolver website soon

179:40

how about you and re-injure chestnut and

179:43

Santa Muerte that's ongoing so we try to

179:47

post as often as we can my twitter feed

179:50

is usually filled up with it with links

179:53

and that most holy death on Twitter is

179:57

the feed that we run to cover the Santa

180:00

Muerte stuff and then Andrew Chestnut

180:03

one is Andrews Twitter feed and yeah

180:09

we're basically at this point I mean

180:11

we're just kind of covering it as we can

180:13

through the website and through articles

180:15

on Huffington Post and just trying to

180:20

stay on top of the tradition and get

180:22

people aware of it outside of the kind

180:25

of sensationalist media or you know

180:30

negative media that's surrounding it

180:32

trying to get a more neutral viewpoint

180:34

out there and I got I got a personally

180:36

thank you for that because you know

180:39

Santa Muerte was totally alien to me it

180:41

made no sense I was averted to it

180:45

and then after you know really diving

180:47

into catching up with your work with a

180:49

because I was curious about it and I

180:51

didn't get it catching up with your work

180:54

I can't wait to read Andrews book I

180:57

can't wait to check out the documentary

180:59

and all this kind of stuff because it's

181:01

it's it's got my attention in a way that

181:04

I didn't anticipate and you know I'm

181:07

learning Spanish very slowly right now I

181:11

think it's great yeah it's a great

181:12

opportunity I tried on skeleton snake to

181:14

keep as much Spanish in there as I can

181:16

just to encourage people to kind of

181:18

engage that because we do live in

181:20

America and surprisingly South America

181:24

and Mexico are American countries we

181:30

should we learn Spanish you know well I

181:34

noticed talking because I noticed that

181:37

sort of talking or thinking about Santa

181:40

Muerte in English sort of doesn't feel

181:43

right and usually I'm not one of those

181:45

people who are like no do it in the

181:47

original language do it in the Latin man

181:49

but let's talk about Santa Muerte in

181:53

Spanish yes I think that doesn't really

181:57

cover what she is so yeah it doesn't

181:59

have the same kind of resonance but it's

182:02

I mean that's true though because I mean

182:03

if the roots are different you know it's

182:05

some of the words are the same but

182:07

there's a different kind of intonation

182:08

there's a different feeling to it when

182:11

you learn different languages so you

182:12

learn a different way of thinking while

182:15

I was looking at I couldn't help but

182:17

remember I forgot who said it maybe is

182:19

Oscar Wilde but then there's always that

182:20

quote every quote eventually gets

182:22

attributed to Oscar Wilde which is when

182:26

you have may have been Goethe but when

182:28

you when you know more than one language

182:31

you have more than one soul and that and

182:34

that felt really really true when I was

182:36

speaking Spanish last night exactly when

182:39

Spanish was coming to you through Santa

182:41

Muerte is uh skeletal passage

182:44

yeah man well it's beautiful slugger one

182:48

more thing to with the alchemy stuff

182:49

let's do it david m smith is coming out

182:53

with a book blazing do have stars and i

182:57

think that if people are serious about

182:59

alchemy kabbalah contemplative work

183:04

meditation what have you

183:08

David hem Smith's work is like Santa

183:11

Muerte part of the living tradition and

183:13

very real so you know talking about

183:17

alchemy earlier if people are interested

183:20

his new book blazing to have stars from

183:22

what he's told me

183:23

it is the first time that he's really

183:27

opened up fully as much as as he has

183:31

about his practice so that book I can

183:37

not highly recommend enough

183:39

yeah David's David's illustration is is

183:44

so good that the instant I feel kind of

183:49

bad this in retrospect but I'm always

183:51

wondering like hey that would look great

183:52

on a t-shirt but you know I that was

183:56

like my first message to one Facebook

183:58

was like I put this on a t-shirt he was

184:00

like absolutely not know where it man

184:03

and I think it was the Yahweh one where

184:06

it's just Yahweh over and over and over

184:08

again and it looks like um it's like the

184:10

most beautiful so of course like that

184:14

was you know so many others you know

184:21

that's awesome

184:22

ya know those are those are for t-shirts

184:26

not not for commercial consumption like

184:29

that now but yeah let's see yeah you

184:31

reacted to that because it I mean

184:33

they're they're potent his drawing is

184:35

beautiful aesthetically but you know

184:39

when you actually read what is going on

184:41

in those drawings and the the concepts

184:44

behind it and his practice and what he's

184:46

doing to get to those drawings it's

184:49

accessing a whole new level of

184:51

understanding of this stuff so yeah it's

184:55

potent potent stuff I don't you know

184:58

it's not everybody's bag it is it is

185:00

contemplative it's not you know not

185:03

necessarily practical stuff but you know

185:06

as a as a contemporary contemplative

185:09

practitioner his stuff is kind of

185:16

up you there hello oh hey come on back I

185:25

think I gotcha

185:26

yeah you said his stuff is kind of oh

185:29

this stuff is beyond compare I would say

185:32

with anything else out there you know

185:35

and one last thing is that you brought

185:37

to mind is that the big thing with Santa

185:39

Muerte that I realized is that it is

185:41

both contemplative and practical and

185:44

immediate and visceral and existential

185:47

and just happening yeah I think that's

185:52

yeah that is true that's a good that's a

185:54

good capstone I think it's best half

185:57

yeah

185:58

David thank you thank you so much for

186:01

your contribution not just to this but

186:03

to what you proliferate on the internet

186:05

and in text and whatnot and I'm always

186:07

looking for more of it and I can't wait

186:09

to do this again

186:10

yeah dude well thank you sir and thank

186:13

you for what you do and covering all

186:14

that stuff you've got quite a media

186:16

thing going too so don't short sell that

186:19

that's all good thank you thank you

186:21

thank you and to everyone check out the

186:24

description because I'm gonna try and

186:26

make this thing as definitive as

186:28

possible we're gonna drop a lot of links

186:29

and you may find a little George or the

186:33

Thurgood Arthur well oh yeah yeah yeah

186:37

you may find George Thorogood and a

186:38

little Captain Beefheart down there so

186:40

enjoy it I know it's not traditional

186:43

Santa Muerte music but it's our spin on

186:47

it let's take Cara Lee you too thanks

186:56

[Music]

187:17

[Music]

187:20

you

187:23

[Music]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Preety_India

[Preety_India]

 

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Transcript

English (Automatic Captions)

0:00

[Music]

0:19

[Music]

0:34

[Music]

0:42

hey everybody for this podcast I'm lucky

0:45

enough to be joined by researcher writer

0:47

and multi-talented artist David Metcalfe

0:50

and a gentleman I'm lucky enough to call

0:52

a buddy we've had about a dozen

0:55

conversations in the past year and it

0:57

wasn't uncharacteristic for those

0:59

conversations to last for upwards of

1:01

four hours which my friends and family

1:04

can both testify to we've met only once

1:07

and that was for a talk at the

1:10

observatory where we hung out with

1:11

George Hanson who is a professionally

1:14

employed in parapsychology laboratories

1:17

for eight years three years at the Rhind

1:20

Research Center and five at the

1:22

psychophysical research laboratories in

1:25

Princeton New Jersey so we've been

1:28

wanting to record one of these and now

1:29

we have something to go on which is

1:31

Santa Muerte and the reason why I want

1:34

to talk about this right now is because

1:36

I was totally aware that you were

1:38

studying Santa Muerte but I didn't get

1:40

it at all until literally about seven or

1:43

eight o'clock last night which led to

1:49

hours and hours of reading and research

1:52

as well as several texts to you and then

1:55

I did a little thought experiment with

1:57

Santa Muerte which we'll talk about

1:59

later because I'm sure you did one as

2:01

well but I wanted to talk to you now

2:05

before I had time to really think about

2:07

it and draw conclusions because I

2:09

realized that's part of the magic of

2:11

Santa Muerte is how it entered

2:13

is your consciousness because we're

2:15

really going to be having a conversation

2:17

about death tonight and I come from a

2:20

lineage of southern funeral directors so

2:22

it's part of my upbringing and David had

2:26

a brilliant idea for kind of corporate

2:28

death therapy service for a CEO is

2:30

placed in a casket which was something

2:33

we talked about the second or third time

2:34

we ever talked about anything but

2:36

nevertheless the conversation tonight is

2:38

gonna be about death and specifically

2:42

Santa Muerte so David you're doing Rutt

2:45

work right now with another scholar a

2:47

very serious scholar named R Andrew

2:49

chestnut who's an author and a PhD and I

2:52

think he's a chair of Catholic studies

2:54

somewhere yeah he's a chair of Catholic

2:56

studies at Virginia Commonwealth

2:57

University so he's he's kind of a

3:03

leading scholar definitely the leading

3:05

scholar in English on Santa Muerte and

3:09

in looking at some of the the

3:11

spanish-language stuff as well I would

3:13

say that his scholarship stands up to

3:15

anything that's going on you know on the

3:17

ground in Mexico so Wow and are you guys

3:22

you guys have done an article together

3:24

on HuffPo and you're are you both

3:27

working on that website skeleton sankt

3:30

is it yeah we're we're collaborating on

3:32

the research and Andrews working on a

3:34

new book

3:36

his first book devoted to death well no

3:39

his first book but his first book on

3:40

Santa Muerte devoted to death just got

3:43

translated into Spanish and published in

3:46

Mexico City so he's now he's now working

3:51

on a second one we're kind of

3:53

collaborating on the reason that so so

3:56

you guys are like the Santa Muerte

3:59

Gringo's in North America right now yeah

4:03

it's kind of strange when I first

4:05

encountered Santa Muerte I think it was

4:07

2005 and I was actually working at a

4:11

marketing agency and was kind of given

4:13

carte blanche to just research trends

4:17

and that kind of thing to transpiring

4:18

and 

English (Automatic Captions)

0:00

[Music]

0:19

[Music]

0:34

[Music]

0:42

hey everybody for this podcast I'm lucky

0:45

enough to be joined by researcher writer

0:47

and multi-talented artist David Metcalfe

0:50

and a gentleman I'm lucky enough to call

0:52

a buddy we've had about a dozen

0:55

conversations in the past year and it

0:57

wasn't uncharacteristic for those

0:59

conversations to last for upwards of

1:01

four hours which my friends and family

1:04

can both testify to we've met only once

1:07

and that was for a talk at the

1:10

observatory where we hung out with

1:11

George Hanson who is a professionally

1:14

employed in parapsychology laboratories

1:17

for eight years three years at the Rhind

1:20

Research Center and five at the

1:22

psychophysical research laboratories in

1:25

Princeton New Jersey so we've been

1:28

wanting to record one of these and now

1:29

we have something to go on which is

1:31

Santa Muerte and the reason why I want

1:34

to talk about this right now is because

1:36

I was totally aware that you were

1:38

studying Santa Muerte but I didn't get

1:40

it at all until literally about seven or

1:43

eight o'clock last night which led to

1:49

hours and hours of reading and research

1:52

as well as several texts to you and then

1:55

I did a little thought experiment with

1:57

Santa Muerte which we'll talk about

1:59

later because I'm sure you did one as

2:01

well but I wanted to talk to you now

2:05

before I had time to really think about

2:07

it and draw conclusions because I

2:09

realized that's part of the magic of

2:11

Santa Muerte is how it entered

2:13

is your consciousness because we're

2:15

really going to be having a conversation

2:17

about death tonight and I come from a

2:20

lineage of southern funeral directors so

2:22

it's part of my upbringing and David had

2:26

a brilliant idea for kind of corporate

2:28

death therapy service for a CEO is

2:30

placed in a casket which was something

2:33

we talked about the second or third time

2:34

we ever talked about anything but

2:36

nevertheless the conversation tonight is

2:38

gonna be about death and specifically

2:42

Santa Muerte so David you're doing Rutt

2:45

work right now with another scholar a

2:47

very serious scholar named R Andrew

2:49

chestnut who's an author and a PhD and I

2:52

think he's a chair of Catholic studies

2:54

somewhere yeah he's a chair of Catholic

2:56

studies at Virginia Commonwealth

2:57

University so he's he's kind of a

3:03

leading scholar definitely the leading

3:05

scholar in English on Santa Muerte and

3:09

in looking at some of the the

3:11

spanish-language stuff as well I would

3:13

say that his scholarship stands up to

3:15

anything that's going on you know on the

3:17

ground in Mexico so Wow and are you guys

3:22

you guys have done an article together

3:24

on HuffPo and you're are you both

3:27

working on that website skeleton sankt

3:30

is it yeah we're we're collaborating on

3:32

the research and Andrews working on a

3:34

new book

3:36

his first book devoted to death well no

3:39

his first book but his first book on

3:40

Santa Muerte devoted to death just got

3:43

translated into Spanish and published in

3:46

Mexico City so he's now he's now working

3:51

on a second one we're kind of

3:53

collaborating on the reason that so so

3:56

you guys are like the Santa Muerte

3:59

Gringo's in North America right now yeah

4:03

it's kind of strange when I first

4:05

encountered Santa Muerte I think it was

4:07

2005 and I was actually working at a

4:11

marketing agency and was kind of given

4:13

carte blanche to just research trends

4:17

and that kind of thing to transpiring

4:18

and Santa Muerte was one of the things

4:20

that popped up because I was about when

4:23

I think the mainstream media really

4:25

caught hold of the

4:27

fact that there were people in Mexico

4:29

and coming into the United States that

4:31

you know were paying devotion to a

4:34

female Grim Reaper's which was kind of

4:38

shocking to the American media cuz it

4:40

wasn't it's interesting the way the the

4:43

devotions have kind of developed and the

4:44

traditions developed because it's been

4:46

kind of an underground tradition for

4:49

decades and it actually you know in some

4:53

ways goes back hundreds of years so when

4:57

in 2001 when Dona Keita made the first

5:00

public shrine in Tepito which is a

5:03

barrio in Mexico when she brought the

5:06

first public shrine forward the

5:07

devotional system was already you know

5:10

somewhat developed so when it reached

5:13

the US media it was kind of like the you

5:15

know this underground tradition that had

5:18

been going on in Mexico and you know

5:21

parts of LA and parts of the United

5:22

States where there was a large Latino

5:25

population that you know it was kind of

5:29

fully formed so when the the media got a

5:31

hold of it you know here's all these

5:33

people playing devotion to this Grim

5:35

Reaper figure and it kind of blew the

5:37

minds of a lot of people including

5:39

myself when I first saw the news stories

5:40

but I never thought you know a tradition

5:42

from Mexico City and some of the most

5:45

violent neighborhoods and that was going

5:48

to be something that I have an

5:49

opportunity to look into but when Andrew

5:52

did is when Andrews book got published I

5:54

jumped right on it to get an interview

5:56

with them and since I've been studying

5:58

it you know on my own we got into a good

6:01

conversation and since then we Co

6:04

presented at morbid anatomy library on a

6:08

talk of

6:09

you probably one of the first lectures

6:12

outside of Andrews on Santa Muerte and

6:16

then you know we've kind of grown into a

6:18

sort of collaborative research thing

6:21

where we you know share information on

6:23

that so it's definitely been interesting

6:26

yeah there's a bunch of places we could

6:29

go to right there but before we go there

6:31

one thing I'd like to bring up is the

6:33

only other people probably lecturing in

6:36

the United States about Santa Muerte are

6:40

law enforcement officials yeah that's

6:43

that's right that's good yeah that's a

6:45

good call

6:46

yep yeah please US Marshal Robert Del

6:52

Monte he he's been going around I think

6:56

for quite a while doing law enforcement

6:59

seminars and trying to get people aware

7:02

of Santa Muerte

7:06

you know and it's contentious too

7:08

because El Monte you know at first I saw

7:12

what I saw the information that he was

7:14

presenting and I was kind of offended by

7:16

it but with the recent Catholic

7:20

clarifications on their condemnation of

7:24

the tradition in looking and what El

7:26

Monte was saying he's unique in the fact

7:30

that he doesn't give a blanket

7:32

condemnation of all Santa Muerte

7:34

followers and actually tries as best he

7:37

can within the auspices of being a you

7:42

know fairly average you know guy and

7:45

plus being US Marshal you know he tries

7:48

to be neutral with it so it seems to me

7:52

more you know looking at it and kind of

7:54

giving him the benefit of the doubt it

7:56

seems that he's just confused over this

7:58

tradition which suddenly has become part

8:00

of his job you know to deal with what he

8:03

sees as a death cult you know coming out

8:05

of Mexico so you can imagine a u.s.

8:07

marshal in that position is probably a

8:09

bit confused and concerned you know um

8:12

compared to some of the stuff coming out

8:14

from folks like Bishop Pfeiffer who's a

8:19

bishop in Texas who just flat out says

8:23

Santa Muerte is satanic and diabolical

8:25

the stuff that El Monte stenting seems

8:28

to be a little bit more open-minded

8:31

you know within the context of what what

8:33

you can say you know being a law

8:35

enforcement official so that's that's

8:38

something I was really really curious

8:40

about because it is the situation is so

8:47

intense no matter where you look at what

8:53

anger

8:53

you look at this thing from it's

8:55

escalating it's it's really intense I

8:58

mean this situation is as hardcore as it

9:00

can get because there's this oppressive

9:02

element that's developed I mean youyou

9:04

mentioned the bishops now who are coming

9:07

out against it I saw a clip of Alex

9:10

Jones who is you know of course like

9:13

characteristically hysterical and just

9:16

saying it's diabolical folks oh it's

9:18

utterly diabolical and I think that

9:20

could like come to mind of course was

9:22

like well how many years are we away

9:24

from a representative of Santa Muerte

9:27

being on you know democracy now with Amy

9:30

Goodman and Juan Gonzales saying no no

9:32

this isn't just a narco st. folks is

9:35

this like really important part of like

9:38

contemporary religious development

9:41

that's happening right now so that was

9:43

something because there is this

9:44

oppressive like okay so before we get

9:46

into really what Santa Muerte is let's

9:49

talk about the like oppressive energies

9:53

around it because of course we have in

9:57

2009 40 or so altars to Santa Muerte was

10:02

destroyed on the Mexican border by the

10:04

Mexican government from and this is

10:06

something I heard from your colleague

10:08

how it's just the whole thing is being

10:11

ravaged you know by the bishops

10:13

government officials and that it's 40%

10:18

of the prison population but then again

10:19

from what I understand how 10 has 10

10:22

million followers so of course you're

10:24

gonna have criminal elements when you

10:26

have 10 million followers but could we

10:28

go into that can you tell me about this

10:30

this how it's being repressed from all

10:32

angles yeah I mean um yeah obviously

10:37

it's a very complicated situation when

10:40

we're talking about when we're talking

10:44

about the different groups I think one

10:45

of the things that I found is that it's

10:47

really important to step into their

10:50

shoes which

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

183:17

alchemy earlier if people are interested

183:20

his new book blazing to have stars from

183:22

what he's told me

183:23

it is the first time that he's really

183:27

opened up fully as much as as he has

183:31

about his practice so that book I can

183:37

not highly recommend enough

183:39

yeah David's David's illustration is is

183:44

so good that the instant I feel kind of

183:49

bad this in retrospect but I'm always

183:51

wondering like hey that would look great

183:52

on a t-shirt but you know I that was

183:56

like my first message to one Facebook

183:58

was like I put this on a t-shirt he was

184:00

like absolutely not know where it man

184:03

and I think it was the Yahweh one where

184:06

it's just Yahweh over and over and over

184:08

again and it looks like um it's like the

184:10

most beautiful so of course like that

184:14

was you know so many others you know

184:21

that's awesome

184:22

ya know those are those are for t-shirts

184:26

not not for commercial consumption like

184:29

that now but yeah let's see yeah you

184:31

reacted to that because it I mean

184:33

they're they're potent his drawing is

184:35

beautiful aesthetically but you know

184:39

when you actually read what is going on

184:41

in those drawings and the the concepts

184:44

behind it and his practice and what he's

184:46

doing to get to those drawings it's

184:49

accessing a whole new level of

184:51

understanding of this stuff so yeah it's

184:55

potent potent stuff I don't you know

184:58

it's not everybody's bag it is it is

185:00

contemplative it's not you know not

185:03

necessarily practical stuff but you know

185:06

as a as a contemporary contemplative

185:09

practitioner his stuff is kind of

185:16

up you there hello oh hey come on back I

185:25

think I gotcha

185:26

yeah you said his stuff is kind of oh

185:29

this stuff is beyond compare I would say

185:32

with anything else out there you know

185:35

and one last thing is that you brought

185:37

to mind is that the big thing with Santa

185:39

Muerte that I realized is that it is

185:41

both contemplative and practical and

185:44

immediate and visceral and existential

185:47

and just happening yeah I think that's

185:52

yeah that is true that's a good that's a

185:54

good capstone I think it's best half

185:57

yeah

185:58

David thank you thank you so much for

186:01

your contribution not just to this but

186:03

to what you proliferate on the internet

186:05

and in text and whatnot and I'm always

186:07

looking for more of it and I can't wait

186:09

to do this again

186:10

yeah dude well thank you sir and thank

186:13

you for what you do and covering all

186:14

that stuff you've got quite a media

186:16

thing going too so don't short sell that

186:19

that's all good thank you thank you

186:21

thank you and to everyone check out the

186:24

description because I'm gonna try and

186:26

make this thing as definitive as

186:28

possible we're gonna drop a lot of links

186:29

and you may find a little George or the

186:33

Thurgood Arthur well oh yeah yeah yeah

186:37

you may find George Thorogood and a

186:38

little Captain Beefheart down there so

186:40

enjoy it I know it's not traditional

186:43

Santa Muerte music but it's our spin on

186:47

it let's take Cara Lee you too thanks

186:56

[Music]

187:17

[Music]

187:20

you

187:23

[Music]

Published on 23 Feb 2014

The Cult

 

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Preety_India

[Preety_India]

Spiritual lessons I learned today 

 

There is more evil in people than there is in criminals. 

Evil is more defined by intent rather than extent of harm 

 

Slander

Punishment 

Persecution 

Demonization 

Ostracization 

Attacking self esteem 

Degradation. Degrading self esteem 

Alienation 

Emotional indifference 

Abuse 

Exploitation

 

Desire for someone to suffer 

Hate 

Judgement 

Injustice 

Bias 

Racism 

Discrimination 

Lies 

Provocation 

Bullying 

Blackmail 

Manipulation

Indifference coldness 

Lack of sensitivity and empathy

Lack of forgiveness 

Triggering 

Humiliation 

Mercilessness 

Arrogance 

Narcissism 

Betrayal 

Cheating

Abandonment 

Selfishness 

 

The other lesson I learned is that you attract whatever you attract to yourself as a result of your energy. Your own energy. 

For example if you had energy of kindness you will attract evil people who prey on kindness 

If you are narcissistic you will attract people who are very nice but also lose them as a result of your arrogance 

 

If you are a productive person you will attract situations that will open up avenues for you to be productive 

If you are a shallow person you will attract other shallow people and opportunities to make money 

If you are sociopathic you will attract situations in which you will express your sociopathic interest and that will cause trouble. 

 

Eventually you will attract situations defined by your energy. These situations will shape up your destiny and also these situations will help you learn more about yourself and your life and bring you closer to your life purpose and objectives. They will be like a mirror. They will show you who you are. The truth about you. They won't be in vain because they will be a part of your growth. They will be learning lessons along the path and  if you are a loving person a caring productive wonderful Empathetic person these situations will bring important lessons and insights along that will bring you closer and closer to your real needs. Your inner wisdom always exists even while you are going against it. This inner wisdom always chooses situations that help guide you to what's best for you and then what's best for you eventually happens depending on how strong your inner guiding energy is. There are 2 energies here. One is the guiding energy of the inner wisdom and one is your own energy of your character and personality your spirit. Both work together to bring you to your real path 

 

 

Another lesson I learned is what you create now is what defines your future. Whatever you create in this moment and in this chunk of time decides the nature and possibilities, problems and solutions and experiences of the next moment. 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Preety_India

[Preety_India]

So my spiritual journey continues and I derive insights during my meditation that helps me understand things better and become a better person every day.

One insight today was :-

We are great when we are great together not when we are great alone. 

Judgement is a form of evil. 

 

A king cannot be a king unless he feels the pain of the people in the streets. From his throne he cannot preach. 

 

Every life is sacred. Every life is a journey from birth to death. Everyone, even the people you hate was a child at some point. 

Word ammunition is nothing. Take the path of forgiveness. Be the higher person. Forgive those who hurt you and want wrong done to you. Because they are doing wrong. Their human perception doesn't matter. 

Fighting is a person's need to hurt another person and see who wins in a hurting match 

All the discrimination based on you are beautiful you are ugly this person is smarter that person is not, this person is better that is a loser is just another way that elitist humans divide society and people. It creates division not harmony. It does not help it only hurts so pay no mind to it. 

And the other thing I learned today is by our kindness and forgiveness we should inspire others. Hateful energy creates more hateful energy. You hate they hate, it leads to nothing but more hate. But loving energy brings peace to the soul

 

A smile comes  from a happy heart and tears come from a soul. So it's important to cry. 

There is a beautiful place to reach in your mind. That place is a spiritual place. In that place human perception won't matter. In that place or space there is only peace and love. When you are in that place, you will only experience love. Being in that place every day helps to see the pointlessness of human actions, words and systems designed around status, money, job, relationships, and all the classism. 

Success only teaches how to be successful. But it doesn't teach real knowledge that comes from witnessing realities. Success is an illusion like any other illusion. Everything that another human said to you is an illusion. You only need to live with purpose and be able to live fully and happily till the end of life. 

 

Death comes to all. Death is the equalizer. Therefore death is completely non judgemental. They key lies in having a happy death. 

 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Preety_India

[Preety_India]

On 10/12/2019 at 7:26 PM, Preety_India said:

 

 

 

David Metcalfe on death and Santa muerte 

I'm happy to be joined by researcher writer David Metcalfe. We had a dozen conversations in the past year and it wasn't uncharacteristic for those conversations to last for upwards of 4 hours. We have met only once. 

I'm totally aware that you are studying Santa muerte. But I wanted to talk to you now.i come from a lineage of southern funeral directors so it's part of my upbringing. Andrew Chestnut is the leading scholar in the English language on Santa muerte. 

David - we are collaborating on skeleton Saint website. 

He is working on a second one. 

Eliot - so you guys are the Santa muerte gringos in North America. 

5.03 in 

 

7.00

 

 

..........................

 

0:00

[Music]

00:19

[Music]

00:34

[Music]

00:42

hey everybody for this podcast I'm lucky

00:45

enough to be joined by researcher writer

00:47

and multi-talented artist David Metcalfe

00:50

and a gentleman I'm lucky enough to call

00:52

a buddy we've had about a dozen

00:55

conversations in the past year and it

00:57

wasn't uncharacteristic for those

00:59

conversations to last for upwards of

01:01

four hours which my friends and family

01:04

can both testify to we've met only once

01:07

and that was for a talk at the

01:10

observatory where we hung out with

01:11

George Hanson who is a professionally

01:14

employed in parapsychology laboratories

01:17

for eight years three years at the Rhind

01:20

Research Center and five at the

01:22

psychophysical research laboratories in

01:25

Princeton New Jersey so we've been

01:28

wanting to record one of these and now

01:29

we have something to go on which is

01:31

Santa Muerte and the reason why I want

01:34

to talk about this right now is because

01:36

I was totally aware that you were

01:38

studying Santa Muerte but I didn't get

01:40

it at all until literally about seven or

01:43

eight o'clock last night which led to

01:49

hours and hours of reading and research

01:52

as well as several texts to you and then

01:55

I did a little thought experiment with

01:57

Santa Muerte which we'll talk about

01:59

later because I'm sure you did one as

02:01

well but I wanted to talk to you now

02:05

before I had time to really think about

02:07

it and draw conclusions because I

02:09

realized that's part of the magic of

02:11

Santa Muerte is how it entered

02:13

is your consciousness because we're

02:15

really going to be having a conversation

02:17

about death tonight and I come from a

02:20

lineage of southern funeral directors so

02:22

it's part of my upbringing and David had

02:26

a brilliant idea for kind of corporate

02:28

death therapy service for a CEO is

02:30

placed in a casket which was something

02:33

we talked about the second or third time

02:34

we ever talked about anything but

02:36

nevertheless the conversation tonight is

02:38

gonna be about death and specifically

02:42

Santa Muerte so David you're doing Rutt

02:45

work right now with another scholar a

02:47

very serious scholar named R Andrew

02:49

chestnut who's an author and a PhD and I

02:52

think he's a chair of Catholic studies

02:54

somewhere yeah he's a chair of Catholic

02:56

studies at Virginia Commonwealth

02:57

University so he's he's kind of a

03:03

leading scholar definitely the leading

03:05

scholar in English on Santa Muerte and

03:09

in looking at some of the the

03:11

spanish-language stuff as well I would

03:13

say that his scholarship stands up to

03:15

anything that's going on you know on the

03:17

ground in Mexico so Wow and are you guys

03:22

you guys have done an article together

03:24

on HuffPo and you're are you both

03:27

working on that website skeleton sankt

03:30

is it yeah we're we're collaborating on

03:32

the research and Andrews working on a

03:34

new book

03:36

his first book devoted to death well no

03:39

his first book but his first book on

03:40

Santa Muerte devoted to death just got

03:43

translated into Spanish and published in

03:46

Mexico City so he's now he's now working

03:51

on a second one we're kind of

03:53

collaborating on the reason that so so

03:56

you guys are like the Santa Muerte

03:59

Gringo's in North America right now yeah

04:03

it's kind of strange when I first

04:05

encountered Santa Muerte I think it was

04:07

2005 and I was actually working at a

04:11

marketing agency and was kind of given

04:13

carte blanche to just research trends

04:17

and that kind of thing to transpiring

04:18

and Santa Muerte was one of the things

04:20

that popped up because I was about when

04:23

I think the mainstream media really

04:25

caught hold of the

04:27

fact that there were people in Mexico

04:29

and coming into the United States that

04:31

you know were paying devotion to a

04:34

female Grim Reaper's which was kind of

04:38

shocking to the American media cuz it

04:40

wasn't it's interesting the way the the

04:43

devotions have kind of developed and the

04:44

traditions developed because it's been

04:46

kind of an underground tradition for

04:49

decades and it actually you know in some

04:53

ways goes back hundreds of years so when

04:57

in 2001 when Dona Keita made the first

05:00

public shrine in Tepito which is a

05:03

barrio in Mexico when she brought the

05:06

first public shrine forward the

05:07

devotional system was already you know

05:10

somewhat developed so when it reached

05:13

the US media it was kind of like the you

05:15

know this underground tradition that had

05:18

been going on in Mexico and you know

05:21

parts of LA and parts of the United

05:22

States where there was a large Latino

05:25

population that you know it was kind of

05:29

fully formed so when the the media got a

05:31

hold of it you know here's all these

05:33

people playing devotion to this Grim

05:35

Reaper figure and it kind of blew the

05:37

minds of a lot of people including

05:39

myself when I first saw the news stories

05:40

but I never thought you know a tradition

05:42

from Mexico City and some of the most

05:45

violent neighborhoods and that was going

05:48

to be something that I have an

05:49

opportunity to look into but when Andrew

05:52

did is when Andrews book got published I

05:54

jumped right on it to get an interview

05:56

with them and since I've been studying

05:58

it you know on my own we got into a good

06:01

conversation and since then we Co

06:04

presented at morbid anatomy library on a

06:08

talk of

06:09

you probably one of the first lectures

06:12

outside of Andrews on Santa Muerte and

06:16

then you know we've kind of grown into a

06:18

sort of collaborative research thing

06:21

where we you know share information on

06:23

that so it's definitely been interesting

06:26

yeah there's a bunch of places we could

06:29

go to right there but before we go there

06:31

one thing I'd like to bring up is the

06:33

only other people probably lecturing in

06:36

the United States about Santa Muerte are

06:40

law enforcement officials yeah that's

06:43

that's right that's good yeah that's a

06:45

good call

06:46

yep yeah please US Marshal Robert Del

06:52

Monte he he's been going around I think

06:56

for quite a while doing law enforcement

06:59

seminars and trying to get people aware

07:02

of Santa Muerte

07:06

you know and it's contentious too

07:08

because El Monte you know at first I saw

07:12

what I saw the information that he was

07:14

presenting and I was kind of offended by

07:16

it but with the recent Catholic

07:20

clarifications on their condemnation of

07:24

the tradition in looking and what El

07:26

Monte was saying he's unique in the fact

07:30

that he doesn't give a blanket

07:32

condemnation of all Santa Muerte

07:34

followers and actually tries as best he

07:37

can within the auspices of being a you

07:42

know fairly average you know guy and

07:45

plus being US Marshal you know he tries

07:48

to be neutral with it so it seems to me

07:52

more you know looking at it and kind of

07:54

giving him the benefit of the doubt it

07:56

seems that he's just confused over this

07:58

tradition which suddenly has become part

08:00

of his job you know to deal with what he

08:03

sees as a death cult you know coming out

08:05

of Mexico so you can imagine a u.s.

08:07

marshal in that position is probably a

08:09

bit confused and concerned you know um

08:12

compared to some of the stuff coming out

08:14

from folks like Bishop Pfeiffer who's a

08:19

bishop in Texas who just flat out says

08:23

Santa Muerte is satanic and diabolical

08:25

the stuff that El Monte stenting seems

08:28

to be a little bit more open-minded

08:31

you know within the context of what what

08:33

you can say you know being a law

08:35

enforcement official so that's that's

08:38

something I was really really curious

08:40

about because it is the situation is so

08:47

intense no matter where you look at what

08:53

anger

08:53

you look at this thing from it's

08:55

escalating it's it's really intense I

08:58

mean this situation is as hardcore as it

09:00

can get because there's this oppressive

09:02

element that's developed I mean youyou

09:04

mentioned the bishops now who are coming

09:07

out against it I saw a clip of Alex

09:10

Jones who is you know of course like

09:13

characteristically hysterical and just

09:16

saying it's diabolical folks oh it's

09:18

utterly diabolical and I think that

09:20

could like come to mind of course was

09:22

like well how many years are we away

09:24

from a representative of Santa Muerte

09:27

being on you know democracy now with Amy

09:30

Goodman and Juan Gonzales saying no no

09:32

this isn't just a narco st. folks is

09:35

this like really important part of like

09:38

contemporary religious development

09:41

that's happening right now so that was

09:43

something because there is this

09:44

oppressive like okay so before we get

09:46

into really what Santa Muerte is let's

09:49

talk about the like oppressive energies

09:53

around it because of course we have in

09:57

2009 40 or so altars to Santa Muerte was

10:02

destroyed on the Mexican border by the

10:04

Mexican government from and this is

10:06

something I heard from your colleague

10:08

how it's just the whole thing is being

10:11

ravaged you know by the bishops

10:13

government officials and that it's 40%

10:18

of the prison population but then again

10:19

from what I understand how 10 has 10

10:22

million followers so of course you're

10:24

gonna have criminal elements when you

10:26

have 10 million followers but could we

10:28

go into that can you tell me about this

10:30

this how it's being repressed from all

10:32

angles yeah I mean um yeah obviously

10:37

it's a very complicated situation when

10:40

we're talking about when we're talking

10:44

about the different groups I think one

10:45

of the things that I found is that it's

10:47

really important to step into their

10:50

shoes which funny enough is a lesson

10:53

from Santa Muerte x'd

10:54

neutrality you know because she has she

10:56

has devotees who are prison guards for

10:58

police men and so we'll take a mean

11:01

taking it from the law enforcement you

11:03

know drug cartel of narco st. Hannah

11:08

she's got devotees on both sides of the

11:11

you know kind of war and so there's the

11:16

policeman who I mean I think there's

11:18

there's one district in Mexico where the

11:21

policeman actually have patches of Santa

11:24

Muerte on their uniforms it's kind of

11:26

like a you know a protection charm unit

11:31

so it's it's not really it's not as

11:33

black and white as it may appear in the

11:35

media right and so you know every every

11:38

group that's kind of getting involved in

11:39

this on the on the end of trying to

11:39

this on the on the end of trying to

11:42

figure out what Santa Marta is and you

11:45

know either kind of sound a word of

11:48

caution or you know actively stop the

11:51

the devotions all those groups you know

11:54

you it's it's just really looked

11:56

desperately important to understand them

11:58

as well you know cuz with the police

12:01

like I said there's policemen who are

12:03

Santa Muerte devotees you know and you

12:06

see it you know one way with the police

12:07

who are trying to stop it a lot of what

12:10

they're looking at is you have a

12:12

decentralized faith tradition whose main

12:15

symbol is a grim reaper right now when

12:18

you have that situation and you also

12:21

have you know cartels who are

12:23

decapitating people skinning people

12:25

alive posting public executions on

12:29

YouTube you know I mean when you have

12:32

that kind of situation and you've got

12:34

this iconography which has no control

12:36

over it and whose basic you know element

12:39

is a symbol of death that's pretty scary

12:42

to the law enforcement and justice

12:45

officials because you know if you look

12:48

at the potentials behind that

12:50

iconography for sparing violence it's

12:52

huge you've already got situations where

12:54

there was one family who was you know

12:58

giving blood ritual by killing people in

13:00

front of their altar

13:02

you know there's rumors of something

13:05

called a blood baptism where you know

13:09

the gang member or whatever is baptized

13:11

into the the Santa Muerte devotions by

13:14

killing someone and then wearing their

13:15

skin she was you know and whether or not

13:17

that's true when you see people being

13:20

decapitated

13:21

you know by cartels and probably by

13:23

corrupt police as well when you're

13:26

living in that kind of confusion and

13:28

then suddenly you've got this like I

13:30

said decentralized faith tradition whose

13:33

main figure is a figure of death that

13:37

causes some concern and alarm oh you

13:46

know and so from that you know from that

13:49

angle I can see where where they're

13:51

coming from but at the same time with

13:54

not in that position when you're not a

13:55

law enforcement official you know and

13:57

when you're simply looking at the

13:59

tradition as it is in reality the you

14:02

know like you said the numbers of her

14:05

devotees and then are not they're not

14:08

criminals you know and if you look at

14:10

where she's active if you have a faith

14:13

tradition in largely impoverished areas

14:16

which grew out of people's relationship

14:19

to poverty their relationship to you

14:22

know corrupt

14:24

official groups whether it's the church

14:26

or the state you know or neighbors who

14:29

were violent or whatever you know when

14:33

you're when you're looking at that from

14:35

the outside you realize that okay so a

14:38

guy gets arrested with a tattoo of Santa

14:41

Muerte and he happens to be you know a

14:43

contract killer well he's got a mother

14:46

and he's got a father anyway of brothers

14:48

and sisters he's got cousins aunts

14:50

uncles and all that they may be devotees

14:52

- are you gonna claim that they're

14:54

because they're in a in a environment

14:56

that has these elements of violence to

15:00

it are you gonna say that they're all

15:01

criminals you know and so you get into

15:03

this question of where does where does

15:06

criminality spawn from which I think is

15:08

something really valid valuable with

15:10

looking at the tradition neutrally you

15:12

start to see a different a different

15:14

aspect of criminality than we're

15:15

normally presented with this black and

15:17

white like you know criminal not

15:19

criminal

15:21

you know criminal environment not

15:23

criminal environment there's you start

15:24

to develop a nuanced by through the lens

15:27

of Santa Muerte you know and then with

15:29

the church you've got a situation where

15:32

she just simply doesn't fit in

15:34

with church doctrine theory the the

15:37

theology of the Catholic Church could

15:38

never include Santa Muerte

15:41

as she is in her current tradition so

15:45

you know what was brought up in the the

15:48

Mexican the conference of Mexican

15:50

Bishops clarification is the fact that

15:53

she's not a person something that comes

15:57

as a surprise to folks in the US who are

15:59

used to you know concepts of gods

16:00

goddesses paganism you know pagan gods

16:04

the way that that kind of stuff all

16:06

plays out in the faith traditions that

16:09

most people in the US are familiar with

16:11

Santa Muerte is very much death itself

16:14

and all her devotees will say that that

16:17

you know this isn't a goddess of death

16:20

or whatever this is death

16:22

you know and so within that context she

16:25

can't be sanctified santa muerte

16:28

translates as saint death that's its

16:30

most accurate translation and so within

16:34

catholic theology only persons you know

16:38

only people can be who were

16:40

flesh-and-blood and actually living can

16:43

be sanctified so right there Santa

16:48

Muerte can't be a part of the Catholic

16:49

Church you know and so I with ending

16:53

with it so with the Catholic issue I

16:54

think what comes in then is a question

16:56

of you know the excessive focus on

16:59

Satanism and you know devil worship

17:02

claims to with again with him Catholic

17:08

theology Christ defeated death so and

17:13

the figure representing death becomes

17:16

Satan because you know in the fall

17:18

what's the what's the fall is the

17:20

introduction of death into the Garden of

17:22

Eden and the expulsion of man and woman

17:24

and so you know Satan as the tempter and

17:27

that kind of thing

17:29

Satan you know brings death into the

17:32

world so within that definition again

17:36

Santa Muerte would be technically a

17:38

satanic religion within the Catholic

17:41

theology so you know by the Catholics

17:44

reaction is you know pretty much

17:47

based on the doctrine there's not much

17:49

else that they can do other than condemn

17:51

it you know and make sure people

17:53

recognize that this is not Catholic

17:55

theology that's going on you know with

17:58

all that said the tradition itself again

18:01

when you're not Catholic and you're just

18:03

looking at it from the tradition is much

18:07

different than the picture painted by

18:09

the Catholic Church there's a couple of

18:13

places we could go right there let me

18:14

start from the beginning where you were

18:17

talking about the law enforcement

18:18

involvement with Santa Muerte and the

18:21

iconography thereof because Andrew

18:27

chestnut mentioned that when he was down

18:29

in the the mecca if you will of Santa

18:32

Muerte which is was the name of that

18:33

area um when he was in Tepito I think

18:39

yeah I think it was tippy-toe he was in

18:40

Tepito and he came across a lawyer and

18:43

he said the lawyer was saved from his

18:47

kidnappers by Santa Muerte so even even

18:50

the lawyers right right right and that

18:53

you know there's a there's a specific

18:56

candle color for justice which can be

19:00

used by lawyers and I'm not just I'm

19:03

sorry okay a color Association because

19:05

it could be a statue it can be you know

19:07

any ways that you could color in a

19:09

ritual but their color Association

19:10

specifically for justice which again can

19:14

be used by lawyers judges prosecuting

19:19

prosecuted or defendants so with her

19:21

neutrality really plays into this fact

19:24

that anyone in a profession where

19:26

they're dealing with you know they're

19:28

struggling with some kind of difficulty

19:29

or whatever depending on the level of

19:32

that difficulty and you know their

19:34

personal beliefs Santa Muerte can be

19:37

something that they go to now I know we

19:39

haven't really gone into what Santa

19:41

Muerte is yet but there's one last thing

19:44

I'd like to go into before we do and

19:47

that is how it started spawning in

19:49

Mexico because it started as an esoteric

19:53

club that it started with a small group

19:57

of elites in the sense of that they were

20:00

like celebrity

20:01

or something like that in other words

20:02

they they probably hit but there was

20:04

also a woman from what I understand that

20:06

I think it's the Romeo family down there

20:08

who's been worshipping or even a devotee

20:12

for 57 years but prior to that

20:15

that's Dona Keita yeah oh okay but prior

20:20

to that it was part of like the upper

20:22

echelon of society and yet now it's this

20:26

street folk religion that is stretches

20:30

from Chile to Canada right and the the

20:35

elite thing is a rumor there's a

20:38

tradition to journalists or a writer but

20:41

he wrote a fictionalized account which

20:44

he claimed was based on real facts Oh

20:46

out the thing I mean presumably I

20:50

suppose he's a trustworthy source but he

20:53

did write it as fiction and there is

20:55

that's not a not a proven claim that

20:58

would definitely be like a hearsay kind

20:59

of thing but looking at you know where

21:02

her tradition did come out of in the

21:06

1940s it was written about in terms of

21:08

love matric and there you know though

21:11

there was a specific no vein uh you know

21:15

it's series of prayers that went along

21:17

with this love spell that was associated

21:19

with Santa Muerte so within the context

21:23

of Mexican culture where folk magic has

21:28

had a lot more strength over the years

21:31

um I could definitely see you know

21:34

because it's focused on love magic and

21:36

that that could definitely start to

21:38

attract you know every level of society

21:42

all right

21:43

well then let's talk about now what is

21:46

Santa Muerte cuz I guess everyone

21:49

deserves to hear it now well it's it's

21:52

dad I mean that's Dona Kate is head

21:57

there's a good short documentary on

22:00

monster TV which is on YouTube where

22:04

Dona Kate is quoted as you know

22:06

essentially just it is death you know

22:10

that there's no no god it's it's not a

22:12

god

22:14

the reason that devotees can say that

22:17

Santa Muerte is second only to God is

22:19

that she is quite literally the thing

22:22

that ends everything yeah I mean it said

22:28

she is that she's death I don't know you

22:31

know she's the transition point for

22:33

everything so the thing that makes

22:34

things partiality you know if you think

22:37

about God as a whole and then what

22:40

splits that up into things that are

22:42

individual you know parts she's that

22:45

force so she is to her devotees is

22:48

literally you know second only to God

22:51

she's the thing that makes reality

22:53

possible she is death when we talk about

22:57

Santa Muerte Saint death and all these

23:01

like wonderful nicknames I think you

23:04

probably know them off the top of your

23:06

head better than I do what are some of

23:08

them Elif laka and La Nina Blanca uh the

23:17

godmother

23:17

yeah lemon tree knows that's one of my

23:19

favorite ones yeah I like that one I

23:21

think that defines her practical work

23:24

very well you know if you think in terms

23:26

of the godmother and also kind of points

23:31

to that second only to God thing because

23:33

if you think of what what the function

23:35

of a godmother or a godfather is within

23:37

Catholicism it's the guide the you know

23:41

the kid up into God to introduce them to

23:44

God you know and that holy relationship

23:46

then if you look at the way that her

23:48

devotees talk about her that's exactly

23:50

what her relationship is to them you

23:53

know they they feel that when they die

23:55

they passed through Santa Muerte to go

23:58

to God you know so she's the the last

24:01

thing that happens and in some sense you

24:03

know when they're born they go from non

24:06

existence to existence so their state in

24:08

non existence dies and then they're born

24:11

and so she becomes very complex you know

24:15

figure who's there at birth and dad and

24:19

you know it's basically the godmother to

24:22

their existence it made when I really

24:25

started getting into it i real

24:26

as a kind of guardian angel figure that

24:29

is always present with life I mean in

24:32

the room with you and that's something I

24:34

want to get into you I mean with you

24:36

later is the death anxiety and the fact

24:40

that you know not just ourselves but

24:42

many other creatures on the planet

24:45

understand death and death anxiety

24:48

elephants of course mourn and there is

24:52

these wonderful photographs that were

24:55

circulating online for a while of a tiny

24:57

bird I think a sparrow morning another

25:01

dead Sparrow and it was like really

25:03

intense very touching sort of photograph

25:05

because it was kind of an undeniable

25:07

image because of a series of images so

25:10

this is like a real thing that we're all

25:13

conscious of and here we have this I

25:16

mean let's say cult because even they

25:19

call it a cult the cult oh yeah that is

25:22

focused on this presence that is death

25:26

for life in other words like death is

25:28

unavoidable for living things it is

25:31

always in the room with you and there is

25:35

at one end of us a biological need to

25:38

keep death away so we survive but then

25:41

as higher life-forms we're of course are

25:44

well aware that the trend is for us to

25:49

eventually die to meet her to meet the

25:52

holy death of Santa Muerte that that's

25:54

that's an inevitability you know medical

25:57

science is yet to take us beyond it and

25:59

then even if it did well how do you know

26:01

if a star is not going to explode in

26:04

your neighborhood or whatever but that

26:07

kind of idea that death Santa Muerte as

26:11

a kind of guardian angel figure we got

26:14

any comments there yeah that's that what

26:16

you what you'd said you know well one of

26:19

her names lesson T similarity means most

26:22

holy death and so if you think about

26:24

that I mean that right there is at the

26:26

at the relationship level that people

26:30

come to her as is the most holy death so

26:33

it's it's that transition that's holy

26:35

you know and what's really interesting I

26:38

think in terms of

26:39

you know the her ties to criminality in

26:42

that is that as a neutral figure neutral

26:45

because she is literally death and

26:47

there's no emotion in death and there's

26:49

no choice and death and there's no

26:52

deviation in that and so she doesn't

26:56

have you know there's it's just a

26:59

complete true neutrality almost

27:01

non-existence to it because of that the

27:06

the criminal element really comes under

27:09

the judgment of Santa Muerte when they

27:11

die so if you think about you know a

27:14

contract killer they may pray to her to

27:17

you know have a successful hit or to

27:20

stay away from being caught and that but

27:22

at the end of the day when they get

27:24

caught and they're punished

27:25

they're often punished by another

27:27

devotee of Santa Muerte

27:29

a completely neutral sense of this is

27:31

justice and that you know there's a kind

27:34

of folk Catholic tradition of the saint

27:36

of the Good Thief which was at times

27:41

fostered by the Franciscan Order and the

27:44

you know the Good Thief is the one who

27:47

when Christ is crucified there's two

27:49

thieves one of whom basically says you

27:52

know well if you're if you are who you

27:53

say you are let's get off the cross you

27:56

know like let's let's stop this and you

27:59

know prove that you truly are what you

28:01

what you are and who you say you are and

28:02

then the other thief says you know well

28:05

you know basically to the the first

28:08

leave shut up we're you know we're

28:10

guilty of a crime this man is and you

28:13

know why would you why would you say

28:15

that we're guilty and we're being

28:16

punished justly he's not you know and

28:19

then says you know like basically I

28:21

believe in what you're saying and Christ

28:24

says well then you'll be with me in

28:25

paradise now theological II that's a

28:28

really really important fact that you

28:31

have a moment where there's two thieves

28:33

both of whom are guilty one of whom says

28:36

I'm guilty let me out of my punishment

28:38

the other one says I'm guilty and I'm

28:42

being punished justly but I have

28:43

compassion for you and he becomes the

28:47

first Saint he becomes the first

28:49

sanctified figure in Christ resurrection

28:51

because Christ says you know you

28:53

with me you know you'll be with me in

28:55

heaven so there's no you know this is

28:59

this is a thief listen you know this

29:01

isn't like a repentant person on their

29:03

deathbed or something like that

29:04

he doesn't report really he says I'm

29:06

guilty yeah I'm guilty and I did what I

29:08

did and I don't regret it and I'm being

29:10

punished justly but I believe who you

29:12

are and Christ says okay we'll come with

29:14

me to have you know because you've

29:16

gotten you got the you got what it is

29:18

and that's the I think that's really one

29:20

of the central ideas behind this the way

29:23

that the Santa Muerte devotees feel

29:25

about the idea of the most holy death

29:27

you know so you have gunmen you've got

29:30

drug dealers you've got rapists

29:32

you've got kidnappers you've got

29:34

smugglers

29:35

you know the whole gamut of whatever

29:36

illegal activity / fishy ating her but

29:42

in the end they all come under judgment

29:43

and it's exactly because of that death

29:46

anxiety if you listen to a lot of what

29:48

they say you know the more violent the

29:50

person isn't that the more fearful they

29:52

are of Santa Muerte and the more that

29:54

they feel that they've got to give in

29:56

order to hold back Santa Muerte is

29:58

justice so you know one of the

30:01

interesting things about Bishop

30:02

fly-through vibe mentioned earlier he's

30:04

starting a ministry to basically I don't

30:09

think he would call it exorcism but to

30:12

help guide Santa Marty studs out of the

30:17

tradition that they're stuck in this

30:18

cycle well a lot of the people that he's

30:21

going to be dealing with are probably

30:23

the people that feel guilty for

30:24

something that they've petitioned you

30:27

know and have in their Ford Field you

30:29

know he's getting this report back that

30:30

she's evil and oppressing their life

30:32

what they're really what's really

30:34

happening is they're coming under their

30:35

own guilt you know and that's part of

30:37

the function of Santa Muerte so there's

30:39

it you know at every level of the the

30:43

tradition there's these amazing

30:44

complexities that you get into that

30:47

really exposed interesting interesting

30:51

existential questions and interesting

30:53

ways to look at how people deal with

30:55

stuff you know and how people react to

30:57

their own emotions or their own thoughts

30:59

or their own feelings and urges you know

31:01

it's really fascinating that's that's

31:04

the other thing is we should we should

31:06

get into

31:07

how Santa Muerte functions on a daily

31:11

level on a practical level because the

31:13

thing that really got me like despite

31:17

all the the just a fascinating aspects

31:20

of it historically contemporaneously

31:24

seeing its effect applied to practical

31:28

magic okay and you know we can talk

31:30

later about you know what do we mean by

31:33

magic and stuff because I know you and I

31:35

have kind of fringy takes on it even for

31:38

people who practice magic right so to

31:44

see that well first you have the whole I

31:46

guess a Latin American thing which is

31:49

like magic magic oriented whether it's

31:52

you know Santeria or praying the saints

31:55

or you know various kinds of hoodoo and

31:58

what not is that it's a very active

32:00

spiritual community where you have

32:02

people playing it out saying prayers do

32:06

three heavenly father's etc it's it's a

32:09

very oh that's you mentioned three

32:11

having any fathers I just want to jump

32:12

in real quick because the three heavenly

32:15

father's thing is that's like you that's

32:19

that's when you really get into the

32:21

truth folk traditions it's like three

32:23

our fathers would be the easiest thing

32:25

that you would do I mean I've read

32:27

accounts of nine night vigils where

32:30

you're fasting and staying up until five

32:32

in the morning doing prayers the prayer

32:34

recommendations are I mean they're

32:36

intense so you know we see this kind of

32:39

like popular into things where the

32:41

people who will talk to the press or you

32:43

know go to the newspaper and they get

32:44

interviewed that's usually not the far

32:47

extent of it you know the far extent of

32:48

it is some pretty impressive feats of

32:52

you know fasting meditation focus and

32:55

prayer for Austin Sibley practical ends

32:59

you know yeah and I think one of the

33:02

reasons why that is which is I guess we

33:06

should really get into why it's so

33:08

efficacious and I mean you know why it

33:12

has such a strong effect as an icon

33:15

because I'm kind of like on the fence

33:17

with icons in fact one of the reasons

33:19

why we're having the

33:20

conversation is because I have never

33:22

been blown away by iconography in my

33:26

life until I encountered this and like

33:28

really soaked it up for a second and

33:30

realized why there would even be for the

33:34

altars by the border and why the

33:36

commercial sales of Santa Muerte

33:39

paraphernalia are so high in North

33:43

America and Central America is because

33:46

it is it when you look at it as an

33:48

object you know the reason why I think I

33:51

wasn't interested in it at first is

33:53

because it was just a lien and then it

33:56

was a version like you have the aversion

33:59

because it's a skeletal figure of course

34:01

and then when you get into the actual

34:03

presence of the thing and then it's

34:06

nature with the wish-granting

34:08

and trying to ensure one has a good

34:11

death by granting these wishes and of

34:14

course if you ask for the wrong thing

34:15

only and the onus is on you I think that

34:21

really plays into that it's the spread

34:23

of this thing is because the idea the

34:25

image the idol the representation is

34:28

extraordinarily potent yeah and very

34:33

complex too I mean the the amount of

34:35

information that can be packed into the

34:39

different names the different color

34:42

associations the different objects that

34:44

are associated with the statue

34:46

it's it's amazing because like you said

34:49

I mean it's a it's a skeletal figure and

34:51

that's basically it so it's at one time

34:52

really really simple and at the same

34:56

time able to hold this complexity that's

34:58

insane you know I mean if you look at

35:00

the some of the altars and there's like

35:03

hundreds of statues all of them

35:05

different all of them a different book

35:07

essentially on understanding that and

35:11

understanding that relationship but also

35:12

understanding life because of the

35:14

intimate Association of life and that

35:16

you know I mean so you have I mean it

35:19

yeah it's astounding I'm kind of

35:22

speechless by you know when you because

35:24

I've just been I just did that that

35:26

piece on the clarification so I've been

35:28

looking at a lot of the altar pictures

35:29

and stuff and it really is intense you

35:32

know and then the other thing that's

35:34

interest

35:34

- with the icons there's the apparitions

35:39

they have there's a there's an

35:41

apparition tradition of you know the

35:45

same kind of thing of people seeing like

35:46

Christ on the side of a building in the

35:48

water and stuff like that right or the

35:50

Virgin Mary there's Santa Muerte

35:52

apparitions and so I've got a this guy

35:57

Martin George publishes a book called

36:00

devotion devotion of Santa Muerte or

36:03

devotion to Santa Muerte magazine and

36:07

the there's a whole issue that's

36:10

dedicated to these apparitions and it

36:12

was really funny because I was up in

36:14

Brooklyn to do to present the co-host a

36:18

couple talks at the observatory and in

36:22

my friend Shannon's building right right

36:25

hit but right at the front there was

36:28

like a boot scuff mark or something like

36:29

that and no it was you know I mean you

36:32

when you have is something as simple as

36:34

a skeletal figure in a cloak a lot of

36:36

things are gonna look like that

36:37

so this boots cuff was essentially you

36:40

know a Santa Muerte apparition it looks

36:42

just like a Grim Reaper figure so you

36:45

know the like they're gonna encounter

36:47

this this stop everywhere and you're

36:49

walmart sells t-shirts right now you can

36:53

go into the t-shirt section there in

36:55

those little spin rack things they're

36:58

the same images literally the same

37:00

images that are being used in Mexico

37:02

except for in Mexico they have like a

37:04

glittery Santa Muerte font on them and

37:07

here they don't have that it's just the

37:09

the Grim Reaper figure but it's the

37:11

exact same image the ones in Mexico are

37:14

actually a little bit better print jobs

37:18

but ones you know and there's still kind

37:21

of black market images that are ripped

37:23

off of other things I mean but mark you

37:27

know Walmart is selling the scene and

37:29

you walk into Walmart Santa Muerte is

37:31

there she just doesn't have a label on

37:33

her you know and but she's sitting there

37:35

you know in the t-shirt rack and some

37:37

kids picking that up you know and going

37:39

home and going to church the next day or

37:41

whatever at the same time as Santa

37:44

Muerte in this closet you know it's just

37:45

not named yet but then if he encounters

37:48

we're say anywhere on the news or

37:50

whatever and that image pops up you know

37:53

there's you know they've that person has

37:55

that shirt or they walk into Walmart and

37:57

they realize oh you know this isn't it's

38:00

not label to Santa Muerte but she's

38:01

sitting right here you know which to me

38:03

I mean that's amazing the way and then

38:07

on the other end of it going down into

38:09

you know Mexico City in that the ability

38:13

to reprogram you know and to take these

38:16

images which you know taking like a like

38:19

a Halloween album cover and turning it

38:22

into a devotional image you know like

38:24

hair model and stuff like that from the

38:26

80s with these grim reaper figures

38:28

ripping that that picture off and then

38:31

you know writing Santa Muerte on it or

38:33

putting you know printing Santa Muerte

38:35

kind of local thing on it it suddenly

38:38

becomes a devotional object and no less

38:40

legitimate than you know any other

38:43

devotional object in the tradition and

38:45

again you know that to me that's amazing

38:47

it's you turning everyday objects just

38:51

you know regular images that you know

38:53

people think are Kichi or cliche or

38:55

whatever and suddenly it becomes this

38:57

incredibly potent thing which is scaring

38:59

law enforcement officers making the

39:01

Catholic Church you know have to really

39:03

clarify its doctrine and you know

39:06

causing people to be excited over a

39:08

satanic scare you know but it's from

39:11

this idea of a relationship with death

39:15

that can be focused through Walmart

39:18

t-shirts that it's just amazing that was

39:21

really funny I have to I have to like

39:23

apologize to everyone in advance because

39:25

of the recording I have to hold back my

39:27

laughter because it might screw up the

39:30

feeds between David and Ikes I think

39:31

when we talk at the same time the fee

39:35

gets a little screw up so I have to hold

39:36

back my laughter cuz usually I just

39:37

laugh in his face when he does the kind

39:40

of these always talking about like

39:44

they're selling mind science at Walmart

39:46

dude you want to get like a real tangent

39:47

like a real quick side tangent because

39:49

Walmart is the Nexus yeah there's like a

39:52

cult nonsense let's hear it real quick

39:54

well oh yeah you see now you're getting

39:56

you got me into it you didn't but the

39:59

walmart sells exorcism books

40:01

they sell books on exorcism that I mean

40:04

it's the on every street corner in

40:07

America there you know the most a just

40:11

generic distribution hub of you know

40:15

regular everyday daily garbage and they

40:20

sell books on exorcism that are

40:22

effective that if you go back and you

40:24

look at the Exorcist traditions or if

40:26

you look at any of the stuff being

40:27

published you know as a grimoire or

40:29

whatever they're essentially using the

40:32

same like psycho spiritual social

40:35

technology in these books that are

40:39

available at Walmart it's it's amazing

40:41

you know in the another comment you made

40:45

was the the mind science that there's a

40:47

Christian mind science pop daytime TV

40:51

publications there as well right yeah

40:53

well that's the yeah I mean a lot of the

40:55

stuff that they're that they're pushing

40:58

as Christianity in this it's part of the

41:01

New Apostolic Reformation movement but

41:03

it's essentially mind science and it's

41:05

positive thinking the prosperity gospel

41:07

stuff that's all Napoleon Hill you know

41:09

they've just slapped Jesus in it and you

41:12

know kind of thrown some biblical quotes

41:15

on that which actually in a way again it

41:17

turns it back to the kind of magic you

41:18

know it's mind science plus biblical

41:21

quotes and you're essentially getting

41:23

back into 19th century magic you know so

41:27

go to your local Walmart as long as you

41:33

know as long as you can kind of get past

41:34

the veil of offensive prosperity gospel

41:39

Christianity you can access some pretty

41:42

potent you know spiritual technology

41:44

there great thank you Mark home of

41:51

American sorcerers beautiful so let's

41:58

let's get back into it was this the so

42:02

back to Santa Muerte here so the the two

42:05

things well two two of the things I

42:06

really wanted to talk about right here

42:08

was the practical application because

42:10

she is a she is not she's not just white

42:13

she's not just black she's not just

42:15

she's a full spectrum agent of Jewish as

42:17

a rainbow which from what I understand

42:20

came in from Cuba and the the so I

42:26

wanted to talk about as a as a practical

42:28

magical system and then on the other

42:32

side I wanted to talk about I guess you

42:36

know and we'll save it for later like

42:37

what we mean by magic at the at the end

42:40

of this because I don't really want to

42:41

go on that tangent now I really want to

42:42

talk about Santa Muerte now and the

42:45

other end of the figure because what

42:48

happened note her nature pardon me not

42:51

the figure but her nature because this

42:54

this is the the shift that I was

42:56

surprised by an attracted to because at

42:58

first I was like and David's just in the

43:00

skeletons made just in this Grim Reaper

43:02

stuff but then then when I looked at it

43:05

where she's this loving watchful

43:09

maternal wish-granting will grant you

43:12

anything you ask for almost like a

43:14

parent you know who will save you from

43:16

kidnappers so she's a she's a goodly

43:20

loving big pseudo female death and how

43:29

how that how I mean Mike I mean that's

43:33

one of the reasons why I'm having a call

43:34

because when I imagined that present so

43:36

I was like okay let's imagine this as a

43:38

presence there was truly like a release

43:42

of tension in my chest that is

43:45

characteristic of my person and that

43:48

I've never had with any other imaginary

43:51

device that I've employed you know like

43:53

I mean everyone like involved in magic

43:55

likes to play with you know Tulpas and

43:57

Vives and sigils and you know basically

44:00

also imaginary devices and visualization

44:02

tools and mantras and things like that

44:04

I've never had the kind of alleviation

44:07

that I got from this icon I think it

44:10

tied very close to the existential

44:12

problem of death and generally fearing

44:16

death and also the male interpretation

44:18

of death which we'll get into a little

44:19

later and the differences between you

44:21

know the standard Grim Reaper and Santa

44:25

Muerte but before we go there let's talk

44:27

about it let's talk about her as

44:28

this as this magical operating system

44:32

yes she's uh is known in in Mexico is

44:39

basically the most efficacious miracle

44:42

worker

44:42

a lot of the conversion stories from

44:45

Catholicism to to you know the Santa

44:50

Muerte devotions are based on the fact

44:53

that people will say they petitioned the

44:55

Virgin of Guadalupe and didn't you know

44:58

really get what they wanted they didn't

45:00

st. Jude didn't really get what they

45:02

wanted and you know they pursued all the

45:06

legitimate Saints and finally they

45:10

turned to Santa Muerte and that was when

45:13

their prayer was granted so she's got

45:16

this reputation for being you know

45:18

essentially like you said just a master

45:22

of patroness of you know people's needs

45:26

across the board whatever it is whatever

45:29

you want whatever you need if you're

45:32

willing to come to her and that's

45:33

actually there's something there's

45:37

similar traditions in gauchito gil who's

45:41

a focusing in south america but his

45:51

sanctification on the folk level came

45:54

from him being kind of a Robin Hood

45:55

figure who the policeman who murdered

45:58

him or who killed him after capturing

46:00

him he before he was killed he said he

46:05

told the policeman your son is sick your

46:08

kid sick when you get back to the

46:10

village if you pray to me I will heal so

46:14

the policeman proceeds to kill gauchito

46:18

gil by slitting his throat while he's

46:21

hanging upside down leaves him out you

46:23

know like a pig basically kills him like

46:25

a pig goes home not doesn't really think

46:28

about it when he gets home his kids sick

46:30

and so he immediately prays to gauchito

46:33

gil and his kid gets better and is

46:37

healed and then he goes and spreads that

46:39

you know that message

46:41

throughout the surrounding area that

46:44

it's miracle was granted but in that in

46:46

that situation you know here's a person

46:48

who killed somebody else and the person

46:51

that they killed is now granting their

46:53

their child life you know so this really

46:58

interesting you know kind of if you pray

47:01

to me I will give you what you need you

47:04

know from these folk Saints it's very

47:06

common but what's not common is just the

47:10

level and broad spectrum of things that

47:14

she covers you know yes she seems to be

47:17

like the I mean I couldn't I couldn't

47:19

think of an analogy of course using

47:21

these like tech analogy so I was like

47:24

you know she's like the programming

47:25

language she's like the you know English

47:29

around the world or I guess you know

47:30

there's also Chinese in Spanish but

47:32

she's like a standard operating language

47:35

that just does what you say it's like a

47:38

switch Swiss Army knife because even

47:41

from the research I was doing last night

47:43

the thing that caught my attention or

47:46

one of the things that caught my

47:47

attention was how everyone who was being

47:51

interviewed about Santa Muerte who

47:54

considered themselves a devotee and

47:57

interestingly enough some of them

47:59

retained some of their Catholicism as

48:01

well but those who swore by it

48:04

swear by her as a miracle worker as one

48:08

who gets things done and they were all

48:10

giving testimony to how this happened

48:14

that happened one woman said she was

48:17

pulled back from almost getting stabbed

48:19

in the stomach another guy I heard said

48:23

that his son was shot in the head with a

48:25

9-millimeter and then was drinking with

48:27

them three days later that she death

48:31

that death actually grants favor that

48:36

has results and you know in my own kind

48:43

of case I don't know how I can treat

48:44

this but what I can say coming at it as

48:48

a novice is that my metaphor would be is

48:51

like well it's a very effective metaphor

48:54

system

48:54

very powerful very potent because it's

48:56

part of a process that a conscious

48:58

entity goes through is eventually they

49:00

die we fear death so you bring in this

49:02

loving death thing at which is friendly

49:05

and inevitable but that you can use that

49:08

as a structure for focused intent and to

49:13

have kind of results and then another

49:15

interpretation is gonna be like well no

49:17

it's an actual entity that grants favors

49:19

fine

49:19

granted okay I just want to draw that

49:21

delineation right there just because

49:23

just to let people know that there's

49:25

there's another way to interpret it not

49:27

that I necessarily do that way but just

49:29

from my background as people know in the

49:32

Campbell field and the my big toe field

49:34

and whatnot is that we're talking about

49:35

you know a reality as being a simulation

49:38

that is subject to one's intent and that

49:41

one uses symbolic metaphoric vehicles

49:44

for intent etc etc etc I don't want to

49:47

go deep into that tear but I just wanted

49:49

to mention that so well that that in a

49:51

way actually it's interesting because if

49:53

you look at the books that are the the

49:57

devotional material you know the printed

49:59

material almost every single one that I

50:03

can think of starts out with by your

50:06

faith you will be given what you deserve

50:10

by your faith so essentially saying

50:14

exactly what you're saying and then

50:17

that's bolstered by the fact that you

50:19

have someone like Dona kita essentially

50:20

saying no this is death la heater

50:23

ordered we're not talking about a

50:25

goddess this is death and then when you

50:27

consider what that is

50:29

you know she's there the a lot of the

50:32

devotees are very insistent on the fact

50:34

that this is not a being or an entity

50:37

that they're talking about they're

50:40

literally talking about that you know

50:43

and and that you know another way that

50:46

she's kind of she opens up these

50:48

philosophical questions because then

50:49

you've got to ask yourself well what

50:52

what are they dealing with you know and

50:54

then you look at the the the

50:57

iconographic in that and again it's what

 

iconographic in that and again it's what

51:00

is iconographic me because here's this

51:03

iconography of you know female so gender

51:06

specific

51:08

a reaper you know not a different type

51:12

of skeleton very much a grim reaper very

51:15

specific iconography yet dealing with

51:19

something that the devotees say is not

51:23

an entity or being necessarily it

51:25

literally is death

51:26

you know yet at the same time this

51:30

nonentity non-being

51:31

has efficacy as an agent in their lives

51:35

up to the point of them seeing

51:37

apparitions and I had mentioned a bhoot

51:39

scuff that I saw but you know other

51:41

people talking about apparitions

51:43

literally see a physical Grim Reaper

51:46

figure you know come out whether or not

51:48

there is hallucinating or whatever that

51:50

question is you know that's beside the

51:52

point here it's just it's simply that

51:54

here you have people that on one end of

51:56

the scale will admit that they're

51:58

talking about death itself and yet on

52:00

the other are literally having these

52:02

experiences with what you know would

52:06

probably be considered some sort of

52:08

entity and treating it like an entity or

52:10

being or a person in some way yet you

52:13

know just really focusing on the fact

52:15

that it's still death it's not really an

52:17

an entity or being isn't so going on

52:20

what of that idea light there let's let

52:23

me ask you what do you think of this

52:24

idea because I've I've noticed that the

52:27

technology being suggested is that it's

52:30

a very kind of standard folk technology

52:32

where you give something and you get

52:33

something right so what do you think

52:38

like of this idea of giving a devotion

52:43

to one's death and then how that would

52:46

end up kind of reprogramming you as an

52:49

individual in other words like you get

52:51

you give yourself a or you give a

52:53

devotion to an inevitability one's

52:55

terminus one's end one's medical debt

52:57

and then from that there's also this

53:00

intent vector your wish and that comes

53:03

back to you and goes out into the world

53:05

so it's you balancing your existence in

53:08

a way with this inevitability and then

53:10

going into like well what do I want what

53:13

do I want to what do I want to do what

53:15

do I want to be in that kind of thing

53:16

and building your kind of you know

53:19

consciousness platform from those

53:21

points in in history if you will yeah I

53:25

did I've never thought about it like

53:26

that that's a that's really an

53:28

interesting yeah seeing it temporarily

53:31

like that the way I mean the way I would

53:33

I don't know that's an interesting

53:35

that's an interesting perspective on the

53:40

relationship there you know the way I

53:44

was kind of looking at it was through

53:46

you know if you look at every major

53:49

tradition they always have a momentum

53:51

ory element to it and she's kind of just

53:56

the ultimate memento mori' where you're

53:59

you're only dealing with that there's

54:03

nothing else but that and so you know in

54:07

terms of her granting it yeah it's

54:10

interesting I I sometimes get caught up

54:12

in the fact that I'm looking at it from

54:15

you know a background in like studying

54:18

contemplative traditions so I tend to

54:21

think of it that way

54:22

and you know I personally am not very

54:25

practically oriented in terms of the

54:28

traditions and stuff so it I'm just

54:33

thinking through what you were saying I

54:34

mean that that's a really interesting

54:35

way of dealing with it like that you

54:37

even looking at the parapsychology stuff

54:39

in that I rarely think I've fashioned

54:41

that's more of just experiential or or

54:46

that kind of thing so yeah it's it's

54:49

interesting to think about the position

54:50

and what exactly that means in terms of

54:53

the relationship with the with the

54:55

iconographic yeah in some ways you can

54:58

look at it like you know you've got the

54:59

patron tradition in Bonn and Tibetan

55:03

Buddhism where you have the idea of you

55:06

know kind of sacrificing yourself to the

55:10

hungry ghosts and the demons you know

55:13

that that devour you you know and then

55:15

looking at that that kind of concept

55:18

through you know sacrifices and

55:21

religious ritual and that and

55:23

propitiating gods and that kind of thing

55:25

and paying kind of paying off the the

55:27

inevitable end you know but she's she's

55:31

interesting in the fact that it seems

55:32

that the petitions and that

55:34

they they do have you know I mean

55:37

there's specific liquor types you know

55:40

tobacco smoking weed stuff like that

55:44

like that all is associated with the

55:47

with the things that she's given so she

55:52

does have kind of a personality through

55:54

those through the gifts that are given

55:55

her you know right and she's even called

55:58

what is it lookup wrong yeah look

56:01

cabrona

56:02

the the she-goat or the bitch is what

56:04

you know that's that yeah that's that

56:07

that's an amazing personal level that it

56:09

comes to I mean we like with with the

56:11

cigarette offerings and the the

56:13

marijuana offerings it's you don't just

56:16

like leave it to her you know it's

56:19

expected that you're smoking a cigarette

56:21

as well with her you know I mean it's

56:23

like hanging out with your godmother

56:25

smoking a cigarette and talking about

56:28

whatever you need yeah this amazingly

56:30

personal relationship with this despite

56:33

you know some of the stories that come

56:34

out about you know being afraid and and

56:36

being very respectful in that there's

56:39

also this level I mean the the bitch

56:41

stuff the the cabrona thing that comes

56:42

out of an interview where a lady on the

56:45

street a devotee was being interviewed

56:47

and she was like she's a bitch like us

56:48

you know that's why we like so you know

56:52

there's this incredible just acceptance

56:54

and very you know very homey you know

56:57

just very domestic feeling with it that

57:00

you wouldn't expect with grim reaper

57:04

figure you know or really any kind of

57:07

devotion it's it's an amazing devotional

57:10

tradition in that it is so real it's so

57:14

just you know daily life everyday stuff

57:17

you know and some of the here's I kind

57:20

of I'm gonna track back some the

57:22

confusion over the offerings sure one of

57:25

the one of the things that the people in

57:28

the US have a hard time recognizing

57:30

mainstream us and that is that in

57:35

anything like hoodoo Santeria voodoo

57:39

traditions any of that when when there's

57:42

a ritual that any of the afro-latin

57:45

traditions when there's a ritual free

57:47

either money

57:48

or prosperity or health or anything like

57:53

that in terms of the African traditions

57:56

that these things come out of the

57:58

African influences on them those states

58:01

of being are considered in illness so

58:04

poverty is considered a spiritual

58:06

illness so you go to a spiritual worker

58:09

who is going to cure you of that

58:13

spiritual illness you know so it's not

58:16

like the way we think of it

58:18

you know in terms of capitalism and I

58:20

have money because I worked hard or

58:21

whatever the way it is in these systems

58:25

at least the where the you know where

58:27

these ideas come out of is that that's

58:29

literally a spiritual illness when

58:32

you're when you're you know feeling

58:34

depressed and that leads to poverty or

58:36

what you know I mean they're they track

58:37

it back to a kind of psychological

58:39

spiritual level so you know propitiating

58:43

something like Santa Muerte for money or

58:46

health or freedom or any of that does at

58:50

the base where this you know these ideas

58:53

kind of come out of and come from have

58:55

to do with the spiritual illness you

58:57

know so we think of practical magic in

58:59

terms of you mentioned it earlier mind

59:01

science or something like that where you

59:04

know it's you you know very self

59:08

oriented and what do you want and and

59:10

that kind of thing well in these

59:12

traditions it's not really like that you

59:14

know at its best I mean obviously

59:15

there's a spectrum and people do one

59:19

thing or feel it's something else but at

59:21

the very you know core of where that

59:23

stuff comes from it does come from the

59:25

spiritual idea of you know poverty and

59:29

that kind of stuff you know we see right

59:33

here I think we should take five take

59:39

five and come back excellent cool all

59:42

right

59:46

[Music]

60:21

[Music]

60:28

[Music]

60:42

[Music]

61:11

all right well that's my best art Bell

61:15

impression right there ladies and

61:17

gentlemen all right I can't do anything

61:19

else did a good Alex Jones earlier

61:24

pretty Dada

61:26

oh well I've been doing him for years

61:28

globalists mine yes he's a favorite well

61:32

we're back we're back we're back and we

61:34

just took a step outside and it's a

61:36

beautiful fall day and you know the

61:39

leave the corpses of leaves are

61:41

everywhere and it's just gorgeous I mean

61:43

what can you say it's uh it's where I

61:46

wanted to open up next which is talking

61:48

about how the immediate aversion and how

61:51

in the West we have this kind of totally

61:54

different take on death than what's

61:57

going on

61:58

you know south of the border and you

61:59

know to a degree now in the US and

62:01

Canada but how we have a totally

62:04

different view of this thing it's

62:06

horrifying we don't want to talk about

62:08

it I don't want to think about it and

62:09

yet you know our Spanish brothers and

62:13

sisters are realizing that it's a source

62:15

of real power and not only just of power

62:19

but this is obvious and the spread the

62:21

commercial spread which we could talk

62:23

about a little bit later I'd love to

62:25

talk about that how it as a commercial

62:27

force Santa Muerte is just huge so let's

62:33

begin there with because that was what

62:35

drew me to it really was the release of

62:38

tension by experienced after thinking

62:41

about this this figure yeah it's a very

62:46

different way of thinking about that the

62:49

much more you know like you said earlier

62:52

you know death is present in every

62:54

moment and really focusing on that you

62:57

know and I think one of the interesting

62:58

things too is that you know before the

63:02

break I had mentioned African

63:05

spirituality and the idea of you know

63:08

poverty being a spiritual sickness and

63:10

that kind of thing and that may seem

63:11

weird in the context of Mexico but if

63:15

you look at the history of Latin America

63:17

we think of the US as a melting pot but

63:20

as soon as World War

63:22

happened one of the things that happened

63:24

in the United States to actually make it

63:26

what we know today as the United States

63:28

was they realized that all these

63:30

different ethnic groups weren't gonna

63:32

band together to fight foreign war sir

63:36

oh you had this massive movement that

63:39

you know you think of the Library of

63:40

Congress's folk music collection and all

63:42

that stuff well a lot of that was based

63:44

on building the mythology of the United

63:47

States as a centralized you know unit a

63:51

nation and trying to get all these

63:54

different ethnic groups to feel that

63:57

they were part of that well in Latin

63:59

America no less diverse and then you

64:02

know the different you know whether it

64:04

was people from Spain Portugal Britain

64:06

Africa India even you know in the

64:11

Caribbean and that from the British

64:13

trade and and that kind of thing

64:15

equally an equal melting pot that really

64:19

never had the nationalist pushes in the

64:22

same kind of way that the United States

64:24

had which was very coordinated effort to

64:28

bring all these people groups together

64:30

in Latin America you know whether it's

64:34

Mexico Central America South America you

64:38

know into the Caribbean in Cuba it's

64:42

much more diverse than the diversity has

64:45

stayed potent you know and so all

64:48

traditional societies have a very close

64:52

relationship with that you know people

64:54

used to bury in their own yards you know

64:57

and so your ancestors the ideas the idea

65:00

of family members who passed on was a

65:02

much more prevalent thing in people's

65:04

lives and in Mexico you know through

65:07

like Dia de los Muertos and stuff like

65:09

that these all these ideas are still

65:12

alive this idea of you know ancestry and

65:15

you know familial ties that don't break

65:18

once somebody dies you know and our

65:22

culture doesn't have any of that you

65:24

know I mean our we've got a funeral

65:25

industry you know I mean everything is

65:28

commercialized and even death so we have

65:33

a very displaced view of that kind of

65:35

thing

65:35

you know which the the death culture you

65:40

know in Mexico and in South America and

65:44

the Caribbean in that is is much

65:46

different and with the you know

65:48

increased globalization and the internet

65:50

and all that stuff

65:52

these ideas are starting to spread you

65:54

know into the United States again and

65:57

kind of wake people up to just how

65:59

distant we are from this just inevitable

66:01

fact of life you know I mean you look at

66:03

something like the the transhumanist

66:05

movement you know there's even an

66:08

immortality movement and that kind of

66:10

thing

66:11

Ray Kurzweil consults with the

66:14

government in the Department of Defense

66:15

and yet he is afraid of death and wants

66:19

to be immortal in a machine you know and

66:21

so this this really intense death

66:24

anxiety is incredibly prevalent in you

66:30

know the United States at a very basic

66:32

level yeah and when you know and when we

66:35

talk about death this is something I've

66:37

said for a couple of years now is that

66:39

when we talk about death dying dydz dead

66:41

is that we always really have to throw

66:43

it up in quotation marks because we

66:45

don't really know what we're talking

66:47

about when we talk about this experience

66:51

the other thing that comes to mind is an

66:55

article I read a couple of years ago and

66:57

I think it may have been in Brazil but

66:59

it was in South America and it was about

67:01

an indigenous tribe who threatened mass

67:04

suicide when deforestation was coming in

67:08

and the reason why they threatened mass

67:11

suicide is because that they were going

67:13

to bulldoze over their ancestors graves

67:18

and that they said that they would

67:21

rather die they would rather commit mass

67:23

suicide right here right there then

67:26

allow for that to happen it made me

67:28

think of you know almost like and this

67:31

may be perverse in a way but a kind of

67:34

almost you know Wi-Fi element to it that

67:37

where your ancestors are at least for

67:41

this culture is where they had a lot of

67:42

potent spiritual output right well I

67:47

mean it's so it's so closely

67:49

tied to the everyday existence that to

67:51

lose that connection would literally to

67:54

be to lose the health of your society

67:56

you know because the in societies and

68:00

cultures that have that concept of

68:02

ancestor you know ancestry and the

68:06

presence of ancestors and the presence

68:10

of the dead to lose that connection with

68:14

death is and in those who have passed on

68:16

you know into whatever other state or

68:18

whatever it is to to lose that

68:20

connection literally is to lose the

68:22

thing that allows you to live you know

68:25

if it would be I don't it'd be as if

68:28

your electricity was cut off you know

68:31

things of it because they see the dead

68:32

is so active in life and so prevalent in

68:36

life and in every aspect of life you

68:39

know that if that's taken away you

68:43

literally cut off the basis of everyday

68:45

life you know and that again comes with

68:47

the the idea of practical magic or you

68:51

know in or petitionary prayer even that

68:56

a lot of what's going on in those

68:58

situations is relationships with

69:00

ancestral spirits so you know the

69:04

prosperity of the family the food that

69:07

the family eats which is shared a lot of

69:09

times with the dead or with spirits and

69:11

that to take that away you know I mean

69:15

you basically just torn the heart out of

69:18

the culture you know and you can't help

69:21

but think about where you know our digi

69:24

modern state is where we're almost

69:26

totally outside of genetic history and

69:30

thrust into the information age soon to

69:33

be the virtual age and how that has

69:37

equality to divorce one from just the

69:40

history of bone and blood right yeah and

69:45

it's interesting too because you know we

69:47

are the illusion is that we're outside

69:51

of that you know and I'm not even

69:55

talking about the dud you know having

69:57

any kind of necessarily like material

69:59

effect in the world but I'm just the the

70:01

concepts in the way that

70:03

helps culture grow and exist you know

70:05

we're told that we are and we're kind of

70:07

pacified with a bunch of objects and

70:09

media and drugs and stimulation in that

70:13

which you know can distract us from that

70:15

but when you look at the actual health

70:17

of the culture itself I mean the u.s.

70:19

scores highest on all sorts of horrible

70:21

indicators that our society is

70:22

completely corrupt and broken you know

70:25

spent on a very deep a motive

70:27

you know psycho spiritual level our

70:29

society is collapsing you know and the

70:33

things that have moved in to replace

70:34

these intimate relationships with nature

70:37

and with you know our ancestral past and

70:41

with you know animal life and all that

70:45

stuff the things that have moved into a

70:47

place that have not been adequate for

70:48

play you can't replace those things you

70:50

know and so until we are downloaded into

70:52

a computer it's this is not really a

70:57

tent like a workable solution for you

71:01

know human existence so you know we

71:04

again we can be pacified to kind of

71:06

believe that we don't need those things

71:07

that we've moved beyond them but we when

71:08

you look at the levels of you know

71:10

mental illness suicide rate I mean all

71:13

sorts of indicators that show like you

71:16

know we're not doing good depression

71:18

alcoholism yeah oh yeah yeah I mean

71:21

addiction in the the the whole you know

71:24

nine yards that's another interesting

71:25

thing addiction actually in terms of

71:28

Santa Muerte and the drug culture one of

71:31

the things that she's known for so there

71:34

here's this narco st. right and

71:36

according to the US media and mainstream

71:38

media in Mexico here's a narco Saint who

71:41

you know is the the goddess of you know

71:45

drug dealers and all that stuff one of

71:48

the things one of the miracles that

71:50

she's best known for is getting people

71:51

out of addiction and carrying them of

71:54

alcoholism or heroin addiction or you

71:57

know whatever cracks whatever you want

71:59

so um you know that it's really

72:03

interesting to see how that you know I

72:07

get it again these kind of

72:08

contradictions that play out but also

72:09

the fact that this figure of death in

72:12

the you know in that cultural milieu

72:15

that's

72:16

comfortable with that even if they're

72:17

not comfortable to Santa Muerte becomes

72:19

a healing figure becomes a figure of

72:21

health and you know helping people's you

72:26

know mental state and emotional state in

72:28

curing them of addictions let's talk

72:31

about the spread of Santa Muerte

72:35

paraphernalia because it is I mean it's

72:38

it says ubiquitous as death itself and

72:41

just growing and growing and growing and

72:43

growing your colleague mentioned that in

72:45

his hometown of Richmond Virginia where

72:48

it has only a six percent Latino

72:52

population he found votive candles there

72:55

to Santa Muerte and that they sold very

72:58

very well yeah it's it was interesting

73:02

once you start to look for it you kind

73:04

of go out you start to notice that it is

73:07

more prevalent than you think I know

73:10

down here in Georgia

73:11

my niece found Santa Muerte candles at a

73:14

Kroger which is basically the de-facto

73:18

grocery store you know and they had

73:21

where at whatever neighborhood it was in

73:23

I think it was Stockbridge which is you

73:27

know sub metro Atlanta

73:29

they had Santa Muerte candles and I know

73:34

you know I know of a Botanica near where

73:39

I'm at I'm loved 40 minutes outside of

73:42

Atlanta there's a like a half hour drive

73:46

I can go to a Botanica that carries its

73:50

you know extensively carry Santa Maura

73:52

same stuff books statues some of the

73:56

more interesting devotional items like

73:57

the there's hands that have the

74:00

offerings already kind of sealed in then

74:04

with the figure of Santa Muerte in the

74:06

hand you know and you know stuff like

74:09

that and they sell that at this Botanica

74:11

which is quite close by me and then in

74:15

that same neighborhood there's a Mexican

74:18

grocery that has Santa Muerte candles I

74:23

don't know you know if you the further

74:25

out you go obviously

74:26

[Music]

74:28

into more rural areas I don't know if

74:30

you'd be able to find it unless there

74:31

was a heavy you know Latino population

74:34

but it is in pretty much every state you

74:37

know up in Chicago

74:39

the my friend was talking about how to

74:43

learn Spanish she would have to be

74:44

immersed and have to go down for an

74:46

immersion in Mexico and I just been to a

74:49

store right by his house which was a

74:52

Botanica that dealt with Santa Muerte in

74:54

Santeria and that was it you know so I

74:57

was kind of laughing at him because I

74:58

was like you know immersion just step

75:00

outside of your door you know so it's

75:04

yeah it's very prevalent and it's

75:06

spreading and with the botanicals I do

75:07

sell its goods a lot of them are saying

75:10

that you know well the Botanica that I

75:12

went to in Villa Park the proprietor was

75:16

you know she practiced Santeria and she

75:19

said she really didn't have any belief

75:20

in Santa Muerte or even know really what

75:22

it was or really care about it at all

75:24

but a lot of people were coming in and

75:26

asking for it and so you know a good

75:29

portion of her store's goods despite the

75:31

fact that she really had nothing to do

75:33

with the tradition with Santa Muerte

75:34

face because of requests for it you know

75:37

so it's you know it's definitely if you

75:44

live near a major city you will be able

75:46

to find Santa Muerte fairly easily you

75:48

know there was an article you did

75:51

recently on of course you've been

75:56

covering the whole Catholic controversy

75:59

especially interesting because there

76:01

they say that you can't sanctify death

76:04

just as much as you can't sanctify

76:07

obedience right you know that was those

76:11

kind of interesting to me of course to

76:13

bring that up because they're not flesh

76:15

and blood but one but there is an

76:18

interesting theology developing within

76:20

Santa Muerte where death is totally

76:26

illegitimate and petition Abul for sand

76:28

and one of the gentlemen who i think you

76:31

translated an article about is a card

76:35

reader i think i had his name up on here

76:38

but i don't have it anymore should i

76:39

pull it up yeah Hipolito garza

76:42

was he's a there was this great blog

76:45

post I don't remember the name of the

76:50

blog but great blog post this woman had

76:54

gone to the public market and Juarez and

76:57

met a spiritual worker there who does

77:01

tarot card reading

77:02

you know spiritual cleansing exorcisms

77:05

you know general spiritual worker work

77:07

but who was also Santa Muerte devotee

77:11

and yeah I mean the he he specifically

77:17

spoke about how he was you know he had

77:20

stepped away from the Catholic Church he

77:22

didn't feel that the Catholic path of

77:25

faith which involves you know baptism

77:30

communion confirmation

77:33

you know the different sacraments he

77:35

didn't think that the path of sacraments

77:37

was really effective for him that was

77:40

you know he kept saying this is my

77:42

personal belief but I don't think it is

77:44

and he said that you know he was one of

77:46

the folks who's said that you know they

77:47

petitioned the Virgin of Guadalupe it

77:49

didn't work petition st. Jude and I'm

77:52

assuming that was within like his

77:54

spiritual worker work because he said

77:56

that he was born into a family that had

77:58

taught him that tradition so you know

78:02

and that they weren't effective and that

78:04

when he went to Santa Muerte that she

78:06

was you know very effective that she was

78:08

she answered the the things and you know

78:11

he was he highlighted the neutrality of

78:14

it you know and said basically like if

78:16

you're gonna do bad that's not on Santa

78:18

Muerte

78:19

that's the individual you know and that

78:22

as the as the Catholic Church has gotten

78:24

more official in their condemnation I

78:27

think we're probably gonna start to see

78:29

more of that that kind of thing where

78:31

people you know what he said you know

78:33

again he's still recommended praying to

78:36

God before petitioning her and then

78:38

saying you know they are fathers

78:40

afterwards so that so yeah I'm sorry

78:44

those those were two things that caught

78:46

my attention there's a trailer to a

78:48

documentary that I saw which I cannot

78:50

find online it looks like I'm gonna have

78:52

to order the DVD which I haven't done it

78:54

not know how long

78:55

but the beginning of the trailer starts

78:57

with this mass group of people and the

79:00

first thing they do is as ask God's

79:03

permission to speak with death and that

79:07

was one of the things that started

79:09

welling the emotion up in me because I

79:11

was just like oh my gosh that is so

79:14

heavy right and the the other thing that

79:18

I wanted to mention right here was he

79:22

was talking about his theological

79:24

argument which was that from where he

79:29

was coming from Christ had to be touched

79:32

by death and that right can you go into

79:36

that a little bit yeah he'd say it's

79:39

interesting too because it comes into

79:41

not the personhood but the fact that

79:46

Christ defeated death in the passion

79:48

which is why the Catholic Church feels

79:50

that Santa Muerte is incompatible with

79:54

the faith he took that same story and in

79:57

his interpretation because Christ died

80:01

in the passion that he had to go through

80:04

death and therefore death was the the

80:09

one that God trusted enough to handle

80:12

his son's transition into the

80:15

resurrection so well for this guy yeah

80:20

for a lot of devotees that's not that's

80:22

not him alone that's something I've

80:24

heard in other places too

80:26

the very you know the passion itself

80:28

which the Catholic Church interprets as

80:31

saying you know Christ defeated death

80:33

death was the last enemy and that kind

80:35

of thing the Santa Muerte

80:37

devotees feel that well since Christ

80:40

passed through death to get to you know

80:42

the state of God had then obviously

80:45

death has a part in that and is the you

80:49

know again this second only to God and

80:51

power you know and he went into he went

80:54

into other things I mean he went into

80:56

details about it of you know if Christ

80:58

gave up all these worldly powers then

81:02

why why was death still necessary Christ

81:05

had already given up he'd already not

81:07

you know Satan and argue attempt to them

81:09

he didn't have to anything like that

81:10

then why why at the end of all that did

81:14

does death come into it you know and so

81:17

he said look in this you know in Garza's

81:19

opinion well death came into it because

81:21

she's that powerful you know now going

81:24

on that idea of how even the figure of

81:28

Christ had to be touched by Santa Muerte

81:32

array or the holy death you mentioned

81:37

also something about the Vedas oh no or

81:42

maybe it was maybe it was your

81:44

colleagues where they said the Vedas

81:45

that the Prince goes to death yeah yeah

81:49

yeah yeah there's a yeah there's a story

81:51

about the the a king makes a bet that

81:59

his best he makes it basically a king

82:02

makes a bet for his best possession so

82:04

if and he loses the battle so the best

82:08

possession turns out to be his son and

82:10

his son agrees that you know he'll be

82:14

taken to you know basically essentially

82:17

sacrificed you know and so the father is

82:20

like no I don't want you know I can't I

82:22

can't do that with my son I thought they

82:24

were gonna take horses you know I

82:25

thought they're gonna take some money or

82:27

something I didn't think they were gonna

82:27

take my son so the sons like no it's

82:30

dishonorable if I don't do this so you

82:32

know I'll go and I'll accept the

82:34

sacrifice so he gets killed and he goes

82:37

down to deaths palace and he knocks on

82:40

the door and nobody answers so he knocks

82:45

on the door again nobody answers so he

82:47

doesn't quite know what to do at this

82:49

point because he's been sacrificed in

82:50

this bet he's got to die that's not

82:52

there to take him so he waits it out and

82:55

death shows up and goes oh oh you know

82:58

I've made a mistake sorry you know I

83:02

wasn't home and you're here ash in here

83:05

that was really rude of me so what do

83:08

you want I'm not gonna take you but I'll

83:10

give you I'll give you what you want and

83:12

so the Prince asks for the secret of

83:15

death and death goes Oh even the gods

83:18

don't have that I take the gods you know

83:21

like you can't you can't have that

83:22

and he goes well you you weren't here

83:24

when I came here that was pretty rude

83:26

and that goes yeah you're right I owe

83:27

you something and I didn't you could

83:29

have whatever you wanted so here's the

83:31

sacred the secret of death and he gives

83:32

them something to probably not the best

83:36

way of putting it but it's it's not it's

83:38

like a fire ceremony that he's given so

83:42

you know a meditation on fire so it's

83:48

interesting to see the parallels there

83:50

with and I think that that piece I I had

83:54

written I don't know if I mentioned it

83:56

in the context of Santa Muerte I know

83:57

I've mentioned it in the context of the

83:59

Negrito in alchemy

84:00

oh well maybe we can just go right into

84:02

that because if we're gonna talk about

84:04

death and the mythology of death we

84:07

might as well jump right into Negredo

84:08

Negredo right here because you were also

84:10

the person who introduced me to alchemy

84:12

and at first I was like ah whatever and

84:15

then I then just like with the Santa

84:18

Muerte stuff like months later it comes

84:20

around to me and I'm like damn so we

84:23

might as well go like right into Negredo

84:25

blackness the fire and so on yeah and

84:28

then that was you know that in that

84:31

context Christ's death it's not in the

84:37

Bible it's not a biblical narrative but

84:39

within the kind of mythology of Christ's

84:43

death there's the idea of the harrowing

84:44

of how where Christ has to go down to

84:47

hell and save the people who had died in

84:51

sin because he had yet to be born

84:53

so the you know and in that he passes

84:59

through hell and then you have the

85:00

resurrection on the third day so go into

85:03

more I guess we should say real quick

85:04

what is alchemy and what in what sense

85:10

well I guess I guess if I had to

85:11

summarize that I would say that it's a

85:13

it's a it's a it's a set of spiritual

85:15

metaphors or spiritual technology that

85:17

has to do with turning a you know

85:20

quote-unquote

85:20

lead soul into a gold soul or the

85:23

Philosopher's Stone or a vessel that's

85:25

worthy of life and you see that in Egypt

85:28

too with the iconography of the scare of

85:30

the dung beetle and so on wait and

85:32

there's also the it's you can never

85:35

forget the practical and

85:36

right the and the fact that you know at

85:40

points in time it was very much a

85:42

specifically practical are the word a

85:44

lot of the early alchemical manuscripts

85:47

in that are on dying and basically

85:51

electroplating gold well you know in

85:53

creating gold substitutes and that kind

85:55

of thing so there's definitely a

85:57

material element to it which again I

86:01

think that you know it's another one of

86:03

those things that in our contemporary

86:04

society we have a really hard time

86:07

grasping the level at which the material

86:10

and the spiritual in tradition like

86:13

alchemy coming out of the influences

86:16

that it comes out of is working with and

86:18

that it's you know one of the the key

86:21

points in alchemy is that you know the

86:24

as above so below kind of concept where

86:27

the material and the spiritual are all a

86:32

part of the work you can never separate

86:34

those two things

86:35

now when you mean practical you're

86:36

talking about not just sitting around

86:38

thinking about lighting the fire of your

86:40

soul but actually doing sort of just

86:42

this chemistry work really yeah and you

86:46

know that you mentioned fire lighting a

86:49

fire you see like actually going out and

86:53

working with fire and going and working

86:56

with water and going out and working

86:58

with air because if you psychology if

87:03

you take psychology and you

87:04

intellectualize these ideas you're not

87:08

actually dealing with fire if you got

87:12

you can't like you can't just think fire

87:14

you gotta actually go deal with fire and

87:16

then see what lessons you can learn from

87:18

that and what does that mean to the work

87:20

that's and so you know people want to

87:22

jump right into lab work or even you

87:24

know the herbal alchemy stop but there's

87:26

some basic things that as a contemporary

87:29

person we you know a lot of people don't

87:32

deal with anymore like lighting a fire

87:34

keeping a fire tending a fire and then

87:36

when you start to get into the practical

87:38

work of actually working with the

87:40

materials there's specific temperatures

87:42

that you've got to get stuff to and if

87:44

you're working fully traditional you're

87:46

not working with

87:48

you know exact measurements and so it's

87:51

it's very much that you know that's why

87:53

it's an art because it requires a kind

87:57

of patience and that working with the

88:00

material you know and you can I don't

88:05

kind of a weekend a weekend example you

88:09

know would be you know doing like a like

88:15

a mandala or something like that you

88:17

know drop dollar where you're meditating

88:18

you're drawing you're working at or even

88:21

sculpting or any kind of art you know

88:22

where you're you're meditating on a

88:24

concept and then it's going through your

88:26

body and then it comes out in a material

88:29

form and if you're really fully working

88:31

with that there's a there's a

88:32

give-and-take with the material that

88:34

happens that you can you can get to

88:37

deeper levels with that and so you know

88:39

when we only talk about spiritual

88:40

alchemy and we only talk about sick you

88:43

know how alchemy is a type of psychology

88:44

or you know or if we only focus on the

88:47

material stuff and we say no it's early

88:48

proto Camus tree or whatever all those

88:51

things miss the integral nature of the

88:53

art itself and it's you know what it's

88:58

full functionality and it's full

89:01

expression you know and kind of vitality

89:04

so so before we close on alchemy the

89:07

goal is of course as I mentioned this

89:09

kind of idea of a soul that that becomes

89:12

worthy of alleged great work right yeah

89:15

it's refining the bringing the material

89:19

up to the spiritual and the spiritual

89:21

down to the material one last thing is

89:23

for those of you who like some good old

89:26

pulp fiction there's a short story and

89:28

the book haunted by Chuck Palahniuk the

89:30

one of the last ones called obsolete

89:32

where he describes a mass suicide taking

89:35

place on earth because they realized

89:37

heaven is on Venus and that you get

89:40

reincarnated and that the earth is a

89:42

rock polisher and it polishes you

89:44

through friction and heavy experiences

89:47

and things like this it's very similar

89:48

to the ideas of like karma and the wheel

89:50

and always turning but the joke and the

89:52

Palahniuk short story is that everyone

89:56

starts committing mass suicide and

89:58

clogging the spiritual recycling system

90:00

because

90:01

they're tired of living on earth they

90:02

just want to go to Venus on heaven so

90:05

sort of a similar idea there folks but

90:07

so that's alchemy let's rewind back to

90:10

what you were talking about my grade oh

90:12

and this Christ parable that's not in

90:15

the Bible

90:16

yeah the the harrowing of hell is uh I

90:21

don't know exactly when it came about

90:23

but it's you know definitely was

90:25

apparent in the Middle Ages you have a

90:27

lot of picture you know like paintings a

90:30

mat of the Christ going through the

90:31

harrowing of hell and it's the period

90:33

between his death on the cross and then

90:36

his God you know walking moving the

90:39

stone and walking out of the cave and

90:42

the story was that he was down in hell

90:44

you know basically defeating how and

90:45

bringing out the the souls who had died

90:47

who were their only sin had been to die

90:50

before he was resurrected

90:53

so with that you have this narrative

90:56

that then when you think about the in

90:58

terms of the the prints going down to

91:01

death and you know or any of the Orpheus

91:04

you know going into the underworld you

91:06

got it there's a ton of stories like

91:07

that which let me come focus through

91:10

this concept of harrowing of hell as

91:12

well I'm Hercules even yeah Hercule

91:15

exactly i we've got it's just

91:17

innumerable innumerable it's the hero's

91:19

journey you know I mean joseph campbell

91:22

all the things that he talked about that

91:24

kind of stuff so but it's you know it's

91:28

extra biblical that's not in the Bible

91:30

there's no description of what Christ

91:32

did you know in the that interim of

91:34

three days so but I think the fact that

91:37

it is extra biblical and that it comes

91:39

up is such a potent aspect of you know

91:42

kind of the folk faith shows that

91:45

whatever those stories relate to about

91:49

the hero or Christ or the prince or

91:53

whatever going down to death and having

91:57

that experience you know when you

91:59

mentioned Egypt earlier you know the

92:01

books of the Dead which were also for

92:03

the living it was an initiative kind of

92:05

mystery that concept of going to death

92:08

to gain the greatest secret of life

92:11

itself by Gilgamesh right

92:14

like that's the story so whatever that

92:20

whatever those stories are kind of

92:21

clustering around that concept is very

92:25

much prevalent I think in what we're

92:27

seeing with Santa Muerte the same kind

92:30

of question you know the same mystery

92:32

there you know except for like wit like

92:35

you mentioned earlier with the fact that

92:38

Santa Muerte is so prevalent in you know

92:41

folk culture street culture that here

92:45

you've got a tradition that death is

92:48

right there you know it's a grim reaper

92:50

standing right in front of you and

92:51

that's that moment of the prince meeting

92:53

death you know because you're not dead

92:55

yet and there's death so what's

92:58

happening and that gives that access you

93:02

know potentially for the person to have

93:04

that experience where they're given that

93:07

secret you know depending on their

93:09

relationship with that and their their

93:11

ability or you know whatever their

93:13

humility if they're worthy of it they're

93:17

given that confrontation simply by the

93:20

devotion you know so it's it's

93:23

incredibly egalitarian that you have a

93:26

story you know an ancient story from the

93:28

Vedas that discusses a prince being

93:30

given it you know and whether or not we

93:32

want to think of that as Prince in terms

93:35

of you know actual royalty or something

93:38

or a spiritual you know sort of or

93:41

aristocracy or something

93:42

here you've got a tradition that's

93:44

available to taxi drivers or whoever you

93:46

know similar to alchemy available to

93:49

everyone open if they can if they can

93:52

access it that promises in a certain

93:54

sense and the potential of the symbolism

93:56

and the iconography that's being worked

93:59

to have access to that the greatest

94:02

secret of life you know and the other

94:05

thing it brings to mind is I was it was

94:08

I was made aware of this theme of the

94:12

presence of death and initially sex and

94:17

society's mystery schools and

94:19

philosophical schools throughout the

94:21

Mediterranean where I mean you see it

94:25

also in Freemasonry and other groups

94:27

where the

94:28

first initiation is a a mock death or a

94:33

mock funeral which may or may not

94:35

include you know certain hallucinogens

94:39

or dissociatives that they as well as

94:42

you know ceremony and sort of things

94:43

like that I think this was even in

94:45

Pythagoras's school where the the whole

94:47

thing is about you have this this

94:50

introduction to death for the initiate

94:53

the possibility the potentiality the

94:56

reality of it and then if we take that

94:59

all the way back to this one we're

95:01

talking about right here alchemy the

95:03

first phase is the death phase and I

95:06

great O face and I can't help but think

95:08

about my upbringing which was more Zen

95:12

centric and when you look at kind of the

95:14

Zen mind Zen mind is about sort of

95:17

nakedness and it makes sense to me that

95:20

a Western mystical philosophical

95:23

tradition would begin with a negative

95:28

yeah that's with her being second only

95:33

to God I think that you mentioned Zen

95:36

you know and obviously in Zen Buddhism

95:39

that's one of the Buddhist traditions

95:40

that's farthest away from any kind of

95:44

deification of the Buddha you know with

95:50

with that kind of tradition Santa Muerte

95:54

as being second only to God and thus the

95:57

thing that kills all the other gods kind

96:00

of provides access to that sense you

96:04

know at least there's a potential for it

96:06

too which is I think one of the things

96:07

another sort of hazy aspect about Santa

96:11

Muerte she's very much very much

96:16

activated by potentials we see you know

96:21

this faith tradition kind of spring out

96:24

of nowhere even though it was you know

96:26

developing under the radar suddenly gets

96:29

a public faiths and then BAM you know

96:32

tons of books are published shrines pop

96:34

up everywhere seemingly out of nowhere

96:37

but the potential is always there and so

96:40

and when you start to look at her icon

96:41

the symbols that are associated with her

96:44

and what can be worked with that and

96:45

what people you know devotees are

96:46

already saying it's amazing to see how

96:50

those potentials become reality and the

96:53

lives of you know the people that work

96:54

with me the other thing about this image

96:58

that struck me when I really gave it the

97:01

attention it deserved is that I realized

97:04

when it comes to anthropomorphic images

97:06

you know some of the vogue at least in

97:09

the alternative spirituality community

97:11

some of the vogue goddesses or gods are

97:17

rather complex they have attributes you

97:19

have you know like Babylon and Philemon

97:22

of course you have Gaia and other sort

97:26

of more nebulous DIY style earth magic

97:31

type things and you have like these

97:33

these feminine goddess archetypes sacred

97:36

prostitutes etc but this that and you

97:41

know for example they take a look at

97:42

Babylon where you have a woman on a nine

97:44

headed dragon coming to town I think

97:47

it's nine heads maybe seven I forgot but

97:50

just that image is sort of like not very

97:53

easy to identify with you know

97:55

regardless of whatever you want to say

97:57

about it it's just alien to experience

98:00

now other anthropomorphic mystical

98:04

magical images like that of a child or

98:06

that of copulation you know more easily

98:09

identifiable to the average person and

98:11

what they mean and things like that but

98:13

it was the this anthropomorphize ation

98:16

of death and then recontextualizing her

98:19

out of this

98:20

you know which I want to go into after

98:22

this is the the previously sort of male

98:24

Grim Reaper and what that one was like

98:26

as opposed to Santa Muerte here that the

98:30

death icon a figure symbol meaning is

98:34

hugely more visceral to immediate

98:37

experience than a picture of a baby you

98:41

know new life and so on or images of

98:44

copulation where you have union yoga

98:47

religion Tantra etc but it's this this

98:50

death one on the far end where it's like

98:53

whoa that is where the real mystery

98:55

is because the real mystery is death

98:58

which is sort of outside of living

99:01

consciousness living consciousness can't

99:03

really approach

99:04

death and yet it is present right right

99:08

yeah exactly exactly

99:09

and if you think about it too the

99:11

fascination and will the reason that we

99:13

can read a symbol like a you know like a

99:15

baby or something like that you know

99:17

like things like a cherub or the eternal

99:21

child figures that show up and some of

99:24

the alchemical manuscripts in that the

99:27

reason that we can identify that is

99:28

because the child represents the death

99:31

of the baby which is then killed by the

99:33

you know next step in getting older and

99:36

we are no longer children and therefore

99:38

there's a bit the kind of death and

99:40

separation there so we're always seeing

99:42

things from these differences well what

99:44

are those differences those differences

99:46

are small deaths or little breaks

99:48

between the whole and you know that kind

99:50

of thing so what we're seeing it is the

99:53

way that you know what a devotee of

99:55

Santa Muerte

99:56

might say is that what we're seeing

99:57

literally is what Santa Muerte is

99:59

showing us you know and so again you've

100:02

the it just can always be reworked back

100:05

to this like you're pointing out I mean

100:07

Santa Muerte becomes such a basic figure

100:11

that all those other symbols get

100:12

consumed by the potential that she has

100:15

in her own iconography and symbolist

100:17

exactly and that's the thing that's

100:19

really blowing my mind is because I am

100:21

NOT an icon guy I am like you know I

100:24

find them fascinating I've played with

100:26

them I've done visualization things I've

100:28

like played with the available spiritual

100:31

technology market I was doing yoga when

100:33

I was like a preteen and you know

100:36

meditation at around the same time and

100:39

then even going into like techno ated

100:41

ones like binaural beat technology I

100:43

have never had a reaction to an icon

100:47

like the reaction I'm going through

100:50

right now with Santa Muerte yeah it's I

100:55

mean it's potent it didn't hit me

100:59

I kinda yeah I kind of had that I kind

101:02

of had that as well the initial research

101:04

I was kind of blown away by what it was

101:07

and was

101:07

and was

101:09

excited by that but a the the personal

101:14

rattle specs had really kicked in you

101:18

know and then I was I was really trying

101:20

to get into it because I'm not Catholic

101:22

I've never been to Mexico I've had high

101:29

school Spanish yeah trying to get into

101:33

the trying to get into studying it how

101:37

do how does one do that you know and so

101:39

I started really paying attention to the

101:42

iconography and really thinking through

101:44

what the devotees were saying and in

101:47

that process you know kind of had a

101:49

similar experience to yours where

101:51

[Music]

101:53

suddenly you're facing this you know

101:56

symbol complex or whatever that becomes

102:01

something more and has this whole thing

102:02

and starts to change the way that you

102:04

look at stuff you know and so it's it's

102:06

an even dealing with the the

102:08

condemnation from the Catholic Church or

102:10

you know statements from the US Marshall

102:14

other academic kind of surveys of the

102:20

tradition you know where they're coming

102:21

from and stuff like that that stuff

102:25

starts to get filtered through the lens

102:26

of Santa Muerte to you know where

102:28

because the icons so potent and simple

102:31

and just there and so directly related

102:33

to something that's so integral to you

102:37

know life right um you just start to

102:40

kind of see it everywhere and it starts

102:41

to kind of you know be you know almost

102:45

as if you're seeing like through the

102:46

eyes of Santa Muerte you know which I

102:49

and I would assume that if someone's

102:52

really really frightened by it and it

102:54

takes on some kind of you know in their

102:57

mind evil order you know satanic sense I

103:00

can see how somebody would be really

103:02

freaked out by that you know the fact

103:03

that yeah death is constantly like

103:06

around you and then you have this icon

103:08

or figure which reminds you of that that

103:10

you think satanic like that would really

103:12

mess with somebody's head yeah yeah and

103:14

that's that's that's what I'm sensing

103:16

right now is the threat because even I

103:18

at first was averted somewhat threatened

103:22

by it

103:22

but then it opens this whole door where

103:25

it asks you why are you averted to this

103:28

why do you feel threatened by it why do

103:30

you and so then at the same time

103:32

considering all these like you know

103:34

agencies and institutions and religions

103:37

that are threatened by it makes one

103:40

think about the maturity of the human

103:44

beings who are taking it into their life

103:46

where it's like no we really have to

103:48

have a dialogue with death like you

103:50

understand everything right everything

103:53

that you're talking about whatnot leads

103:55

to death everything that you're

103:57

proposing leads to death eventually so

104:01

we actually have to have a dialogue with

104:03

the phenomenon the process in some cases

104:06

the entity etc yeah exactly and that's I

104:09

think that's where you know we were

104:11

talking about the the commercialization

104:13

of it and that if you look at other

104:16

aspects of death in contemporary culture

104:18

in the United States in Europe and you

104:22

know around the world because of the

104:23

internet and global the you know the

104:26

folks who do well I mean I work you know

104:30

with the Observatory room up in Brooklyn

104:35

to put on events and morbid anatomy

104:38

library as a part of that you know it's

104:40

kind of a ryu know look at Deaf culture

104:42

and what is you know what's our

104:44

relationship with that the Medical

104:45

Humanities than that and then there's

104:47

the death salon you know which is

104:50

directly dealing its scholars and you

104:54

know artists and every you know

104:57

creatives and that coming together to

104:59

discuss what is death you know in

105:02

culture like because we're not looking

105:03

at it you know our culture is not

105:04

dealing with it but like you said we're

105:06

moving down a path in a lot of different

105:08

areas where we're causing extensive

105:11

damage and you know essentially

105:14

summoning death you know calling death

105:16

into the world so yeah I think that

105:20

dialogues it's completely necessary and

105:22

then we see this growth of Santa Muerte

105:24

which shows that obviously people are

105:27

thinking about this you know obviously

105:29

this is an issue you know and where does

105:31

Santa Muerte come up from it comes up

105:33

from you know the barrios of Mexico

105:36

where you've got corrupt government

105:37

officials corrupt cops you've got gangs

105:40

you've got you know every level of

105:44

violence like across the board and Santa

105:46

Muerte appears you know so I don't think

105:49

that you know I think our culture has a

105:51

hard time dealing with symbols because

105:53

they don't really know what to do with

105:55

them sure you know we either want to

105:57

either want to give it and say like oh

105:59

this is a symbol of a god or a goddess

106:01

or God or whatever right like you show

106:04

them the eye in a triangle and there's

106:05

so many different realities yeah yeah

106:08

exactly yeah and put this like really

106:09

heavy well narrative weight on it you

106:12

know or we want to completely dismiss it

106:13

and say it doesn't mean anything it's

106:14

crap and it's just a veil for something

106:16

else and these people are you know

106:18

narcos or whatever but you know like the

106:21

what the symbol when it crops up with

106:23

such crap L&C; is really saying is hey

106:26

guys wake up like this you know this is

106:28

coming like you guys are stewing in it

106:30

and it's gonna start appearing in your

106:33

dreams

106:33

and you're the symbols that crop up in

106:36

your life the symbols that you associate

106:38

with and feel comfortable with those are

106:41

all signs that that thing is there and

106:43

present and common you know it's kind of

106:45

like you know like a skin rash shows you

106:48

that you're having an allergic reaction

106:49

you know when you start to see death

106:52

cults pop up you're living in a society

106:55

where death is a huge issue you know

106:59

yeah and this this brings me to

107:02

something I wanted to talk about which

107:03

was kind of unplanned and came to my

107:06

mind a while ago before we got on here

107:11

because otherwise I would have sent you

107:12

a message about it earlier so you had a

107:14

chance to think about it but it but it

107:15

is kind of a strange concept and that is

107:20

the threat of death that death isn't

107:24

just threatening in the sense of like

107:26

one day one will die but that forces

107:29

agencies institutions regimes religions

107:33

and just your neighbor you know if

107:36

you're in the wrong neighborhood will

107:37

threaten you with death so in other

107:40

words death is a kind of punishment

107:42

death is a threat it's a death threat so

107:45

I mean it's kind of strange but when you

107:48

think about it what is

107:49

one army due to another army well we're

107:51

gonna threaten you with death that's

107:53

what we're gonna do

107:54

death and destruction right right now

107:58

that to me is kind of interesting how

107:59

when it comes to the threats that's the

108:01

threat is that we will kill you right

108:05

exactly and that's that's exactly why

108:07

you have contract killers and people

108:10

like that who work with Santa Muerte not

108:13

just to make their kills efficient or to

108:16

not be caught by the cops but to work

108:19

through their feelings and fears of

108:21

death because of the fact that they

108:22

issue that threat of death and then also

108:25

know that that could very easily come

108:27

back on them you know and so how do they

108:29

work through that fear that was that was

108:31

an interesting thing when I started

108:32

looking at Santa Muerte and looking at

108:34

this tradition I was I was working at a

108:38

music store right out of college and the

108:43

the currency exchange next door got

108:46

robbed and in the process you know since

108:49

I was there and a friend of mine was at

108:52

the story at the time since we were

108:54

essentially witnesses to it we got held

108:57

at gunpoint and my friends an idiot this

109:04

is why I wanted to bring David on every

109:05

way I wanted to bring him on because

109:07

he's always got like something like this

109:08

like I was held at gunpoint my friend

109:10

was totally well no Ivan we're sitting

109:13

outside like we're we're sitting outside

109:15

having a cigarette at this music store I

109:18

had the I had the phone sitting next to

109:20

me and the next thing I know is some

109:22

guys reaching for the phone and people

109:24

are rude you know like I figured like oh

109:26

he needs to use the phone so I look up

109:28

and I'm you know facing a nine

109:30

millimeter God and I was like oh no like

109:34

the average night at the Music Store you

109:36

know in suburban Chicago like this is

109:38

different so I you know was like whoa at

109:43

this point like what do you do well my

109:45

friend smoking the cigarette and we go

109:48

you know the guy's telling us to get

109:50

back in the store and my friends like he

109:52

tells the guy who's holding the gun to

109:54

us he goes oh I've got a I've got a

109:56

cigarette I can't you know I can't go in

109:59

the store and the guy looks at him like

110:01

are you insane I'm holding

110:02

ain't you like you need to get in the

110:04

store you know he's like oh yeah okay

110:05

I'm sorry like throws the cigarette but

110:08

I mean this was this was at that point I

110:10

was sure that we were gonna get shot

110:12

then the guy tells me to face the wall

110:14

the way that the thing was positioned I

110:15

couldn't face the wall so I'm facing

110:17

this guy while he's like wandering

110:19

around with this gun and I look at him

110:22

and I'm like oh crap the dudes on coke -

110:24

so he's coked up he's got this gun he's

110:27

sweating like crazy he's nervous his

110:29

friend is robbing the currency exchange

110:31

and he goes to steal CDs and none of the

110:35

CDs are in the case so like as this is

110:37

progressing all I'm seeing is

110:39

everything's going wrong in this

110:41

situation I'm gonna have a bullet

110:43

straight through my head in about a few

110:45

seconds to a minute here and it all

110:47

turned out okay

110:48

there was no problem I talked to the guy

110:51

like was fine with it like came to a

110:55

realization where I had no choice there

110:58

was nothing I could do I was either

111:00

gonna die or not die and it became

111:02

really calm and so afterwards I found

111:07

out that the whole robbery was set up by

111:09

a corrupt cop and who had gotten

111:13

people's personal information to

111:14

blackmail the we're not even blackmail I

111:17

guess extort the currency exchange clerk

111:21

and so when I started dealing with the

111:24

Santa Muerte tradition and reading about

111:27

it and thinking about what the symbol

111:28

meant I realized that in a way that

111:31

moment where I had that gun on me was

111:34

very similar to what people describe you

111:36

know where Santa Muerte saves them and

111:38

so I started thinking about that in

111:40

terms of I was in a moment where I was

111:42

sure I was gonna die and very well could

111:44

have died and the peace that that

111:47

entailed and the release that that

111:50

entailed and what does that mean through

111:53

this symbol sack so I had like a very

111:55

you know and have a very visceral

111:57

connection to that I can access that

112:01

level of the tradition you know and

112:03

think about it so you know I just think

112:08

it's a very powerful way to in our

112:12

contemporary we've got drone pilots that

112:14

I mean

112:15

mind you know I mean drone pilots that

112:17

are killing people in computer games but

112:19

they're really killing people and you

112:22

know death is becoming distant and

112:25

strange but still having psychological

112:27

effects and so you know you have

112:30

something like Santa Muerte and it's a

112:33

way to like use the word conversation

112:36

you know to have a conversation with

112:38

this this thing that's so prevalent and

112:42

yet so distant you know in our lives and

112:44

unless you've had like a Drex

112:46

you know experience with it like I've

112:48

had car accidents and stuff like that

112:50

where I've walked away from flipped over

112:52

cars so again thinking about that in

112:55

terms of the symbol set and the ideas

112:57

behind Santa Muerte has really given an

113:01

interesting you know insights into the

113:03

tradition and at the same time the

113:05

traditions given me insights into my own

113:09

experiences with that you know and I'm

113:12

glad you brought up the drones because

113:13

even the United States I mean we've been

113:15

talking about developing a an oppressive

113:19

this death culture here for quite some

113:22

time now I mean the rise in homicides by

113:28

you know people who are supposed to be

113:30

protectors police officers I'm not

113:32

trying to just nag on police officers

113:35

because I would never do that because I

113:37

know many of them are are very sincere

113:39

about justice and the law which I'm very

113:41

sincere about - I don't really subscribe

113:44

to an Antarctic Way of view I think that

113:46

you have law if you don't have law you

113:48

don't really have anything but it has to

113:50

be like legitimate law in other words

113:52

everyone has to follow it but when you

113:55

see in America with the rise of the

113:57

drones as you mentioned as well as the

114:00

rise in homicides by police officers I

114:06

mean I just read on Facebook this week

114:08

where a kid was shot in a pickup truck

114:11

because someone wanted to prove a point

114:13

or something like that his grandfather

114:15

or something was just utterly ridiculous

114:19

I'd say it they become ludicrous they

114:21

become absurd and it and it's like well

114:24

we have to have a conversation with our

114:25

protectors but besides that take in mind

114:28

something

114:29

like habeas corpus or the rise of you

114:32

know certain legislation in the United

114:34

States where it's basically like well

114:35

you know you don't even have a trial and

114:37

in fact we can sort of kill you if we

114:39

want to I mean that's why Rand Paul and

114:41

company had that filibuster a few months

114:45

ago wherein they were on the floor

114:47

saying can the president legally murder

114:50

a US citizen which which has already

114:52

happened twice from what I understand at

114:54

least with drones and I think one of

114:57

them was a child so there is this you

115:00

know a for a place that is trying to

115:02

stand for justice you've justice and law

115:06

to see this kind of thing where death is

115:09

sort of like well we'll actually deal

115:10

death like will straight deal death and

115:13

you know why not now again that's not to

115:16

put the whole onus on that institution

115:18

but to say that it is very real it's a

115:20

very real thing so to to see it spread

115:24

to the United States in ways I mean I'm

115:26

not really surprised it's it's the whole

115:30

war situation I mean it's a it's a

115:32

country based on war in the military

115:34

industrial complex etc it doesn't always

115:36

have to be that way but that's what it

115:38

is right now so the whole sort of

115:40

reality is around this new legalization

115:44

of death and from that I'm really not

115:46

surprised that you have a figure like

115:47

Santa Muerte showing up who is you know

115:50

death but also a kind of like antidote

115:53

to that crisis and also I mean that yeah

115:57

definitely

115:58

definitely in Hannah doe to it and a you

116:01

know as you said before not not

116:05

necessarily a negative figure you know a

116:07

figure that's very conducive to

116:10

communication and that you know within

116:12

the daikon agraphia and her tradition

116:14

and I think something it's interesting

116:17

as I was as as you were talking about

116:20

American death culture and you know the

116:23

military-industrial complex and all that

116:25

the one thing that a lot of people don't

116:29

talk about anymore we talk about drones

116:31

we talk about the you know the

116:36

the surveillance state and all that kind

116:38

of stuff right is the fact that nuclear

116:40

weapons exist right very powerful

116:43

nuclear weapons right now our arms and

116:48

waiting to be fired and we invented them

116:53

here it was there was a whole global

116:56

effort to invent them and they were

117:00

tested in New Mexico and they were

117:03

tested in Hawaii we dropped him on Japan

117:06

they've been used we have more powerful

117:09

ones now we've got Fukushima blasting

117:12

radiation into who knows why follow and

117:16

we've released the death genie out of

117:19

the bottle we're not just you know it's

117:21

not just drones and the military and

117:24

police and all that right literally

117:26

right now dying period right we release

117:29

nuclear energy it's we don't have a

117:32

culture that can handle it we don't have

117:34

responsible leadership that can handle

117:35

it and we live under constant threat of

117:38

immediate annihilation right and in that

117:43

situation you know Burroughs wrote about

117:45

this Burroughs wrote about how America

117:49

had you know and I don't know if you can

117:53

even really say America because Germany

117:55

was going for the bomb - I mean

117:56

everybody was going for the nuclear

117:57

thing so Billy a global effort but we've

118:01

gone to Beth's door and there's no

118:05

turning back you know I mean there's

118:07

either enlightenment or there's gonna be

118:09

some kind of catastrophe it's not a

118:12

point where we're you know maybe the

118:14

king will die and we'll get a better

118:16

regime right no replacement no

118:19

replacement for government or anything

118:21

is gonna solve the fact that we have

118:24

Unleashed radiation to levels that will

118:27

eventually destroy us if we don't set it

118:30

off faster yeah there's notes if there's

118:33

no escaping the atom bomb right and that

118:35

question is something that we kind of

118:38

dance I mean the Fukushima thing you

118:40

know like sort of awaken people to that

118:42

but the the issue of nuclear energy is

118:46

vital to

118:49

you know just realizing that we are not

118:52

we're not in control of things you know

118:55

there's something's been released that

118:57

can't be put away you know and that

118:59

that's another reason that I think I'm

119:02

kind of a you know if if you can save

119:05

subconscious or you know symbolic level

119:08

or whatever I think that's another thing

119:10

that's playing into the Santa Muerte

119:12

stuff you know is that as a global

119:14

culture we're we've already passed the

119:17

tipping point you know yeah the the

119:21

other thing that it brought to mind of

119:23

course is you know

119:25

Oppenheimer I am become death the

119:27

destroyer of worlds

119:29

right I mean that's that was a real that

119:32

was a real moment it's like it's like

119:33

humanity at least from what we know

119:35

there are some researchers out there who

119:37

say like I mean even Oppenheimer himself

119:39

said we've done this before you know in

119:41

a kind of ominous sort of way where he

119:43

was implying that that human

119:45

civilizations have come and gone based

119:48

on atomic power right and whether or not

119:52

that's true the suggestion is certainly

119:55

real today well and going back to going

119:59

back to alchemy too if you look at folk

120:02

and alley one of the key elements of

120:05

folk analysis social commentary is about

120:10

nuclear energy and about the nuclear

120:12

question really yeah and that it's a you

120:18

know it with Oppenheimer saying you know

120:22

I've become death destroyer of worlds

120:23

and you've got Jack Parsons summoning

120:26

right you know Babylon for the

120:29

apocalypse and then going to work on the

120:33

you know Manhattan Project in that

120:38

there's a big question there of what

120:40

happened in that moment in history and

120:44

symbolically what does that mean and

120:46

what does that mean for what we're doing

120:47

right now and the fact that we have a

120:50

major movement that's bringing you know

120:54

a figure of death forward as a popular

120:56

cult figure when the last time that that

120:58

happened was

121:02

on a small scale at the end of the

121:05

century in France is reaction to the

121:08

French Revolution other small-scale was

121:12

prior to Nazi Germany when you had a big

121:14

upswing in decadent art and other times

121:19

have been the plague deaths and that so

121:22

when you start to see these death

121:23

symbols you know even if you look at the

121:26

current scholarship on this stuff look

121:29

at the times when those symbols became

121:31

prevalent what was going on in society

121:33

and then think about how prevalent it is

121:35

now what we kind of ignore it at the

121:37

same time and what does that mean for

121:40

what's going on and you know what could

121:41

be kind of coming down the line and not

121:44

only that but you know you can't not

121:46

neglect Damien Hirst's for the love of

121:49

God the status skull adorned with grace

121:54

right and then it making an appearance

121:56

in jay-z music video and then indeed the

122:01

entire weird like and weird in a lame

122:05

way I would like to mention there's

122:07

there's a lot of people who harp on like

122:10

we the it really yeah weird in a lame

122:14

way where they like where people tend to

122:16

harp on the the presence of you know

122:19

occult and esoteric imagery in a popular

122:24

hip-hop pop music pop R&B; and that kind

122:27

of thing and how it does have a kind of

122:29

death centric you know resurrection

122:32

exorcism type of thing and and that's

122:34

like that's more of a lame

122:36

interpretation for me it's like it never

122:38

really it actually I never thought the

122:40

occult could suck until I really like

122:43

watched what the music industry could do

122:46

with it post like say Led Zeppelin in

122:48

the hair bands and all that like heavy

122:50

metal stuff one's kind of like hip-hop

122:52

you know it's like what I call its hip

122:54

pop it's not hip hop it's hip pop once

122:57

that kind of like picked up on all these

123:00

kind of like occultist themes I was Nev

123:02

never been more disappointed in a genre

123:05

of music you know I thought I was gonna

123:07

hate the 80s forever you know growing up

123:10

I thought I was always gonna be like I

123:11

just don't get with those synthesizers

123:13

man just sounds too robotic

123:14

but seeing them in their performances

123:16

and their over-the-top glitz and glam

123:18

and type of thing it's like you know it

123:20

it's so it gives it you know if their

123:25

satanic they give Satanism a bad name I

123:29

kind of like that jay-z video okay it's

123:33

addictive it really is the chant the

123:35

chant I've got I don't know I've I like

123:41

pop music

123:42

yeah you know I'm neutral too it's a

123:45

lesson that stands where to hit stop

123:47

means to be neutral to to pop music such

123:50

a hater that's that you know that that

123:54

song grew on me for it's for the fact

123:58

that you could pick it apart and have a

123:59

lot of fun with it cuz it is this kind

124:01

of you know bizarre hypnotic chant on to

124:03

the next one would take these

124:05

suggestions of mammon going on and all

124:07

this stuff yeah and human sacrifice and

124:09

stuff because all the people portrayed

124:11

in it are dead

124:11

it was I didn't even notice that is that

124:14

right yeah they were all dead and next

124:17

one man on to the next like that the

124:21

potential see that's what I think they

124:22

are called potential in that song like

124:24

Anna necromantic potential in that right

124:26

is uh it's pretty uh it's pretty fun I

124:31

mean a conspiracy like the conspiracy

124:35

stuff goes not so over it sure you know

124:37

it like I think those I think that maybe

124:38

one of the videos were like they

124:40

actually pause it like at a certain

124:41

point where Satan's face appears and

124:43

like a flame somewhere you know like off

124:45

to the like left-hand side or something

124:47

yeah I mean like that one that one's for

124:50

deep analysis by the experienced the

124:53

conspiratorial crowd so yeah that's a

124:55

that's a they go through it almost

124:57

shot-by-shot yeah yeah it's I mean in

125:01

some ways if you look at like if you

125:03

look at very detailed but not very new

125:06

clots kind of history where the person's

125:09

gone till like a really like the scholar

125:11

goes in and just like picks apart like

125:13

you know like just almost down to like

125:17

the the skin flakes level of Street you

125:20

know but there's really no nuance to it

125:21

but it's really helpful when you're

125:23

looking for those skin playing details

125:25

that's what I think kind of

125:27

paranoid conspiracy stuff is good for

125:29

because like every aspect of it and it

125:33

may be a jumbled mass once it gets Chino

125:35

gather into the picture that's presented

125:37

but there's so many different details

125:38

and facts there that you can kind of go

125:40

in and you know very carefully like

125:43

unpick the facts and kind of explore

125:45

meet different little areas of history

125:47

and you know social psychology that's

125:51

great this is it's good for a break

125:53

right there you want to take another

125:54

five and then we'll like see if we do a

125:56

little more yeah cool man All Right see

125:58

you okay we're back and look to close

126:41

the segment I have a couple more

126:42

questions wanted to ask you and this is

126:46

about well there's two aspects to this

126:51

part of the conversation and that's kind

126:53

of the rise of female centric you know

126:56

deities or forces or which have you and

126:59

I mentioned this earlier and something I

127:01

wrote today where it seems that the

127:05

modern

127:05

altar the modern all spiritual mind is

127:09

interested in you know Gaia Kali Babylon

127:14

eros with the discord ian's and these

127:17

kinds of things and now we have Santa

127:19

Muerte showing up and just kind of

127:22

thinking about that how it's moving from

127:23

the you know sort of masculine phallic

127:27

interpretation of sanctity and divinity

127:31

and so on to this female oriented when I

127:34

wondered if you had any thoughts or

127:36

ideas about that it's interesting with

127:39

the

127:40

the development of Santa Muerte because

127:43

there's a couple different skeleton

127:46

Saints in Latin America there's a San la

127:50

muerte which is a male figure there's a

127:54

rapist squall who's another male

127:57

skeleton figure and there's Senor la

128:02

muerte which is kind of similar and

128:05

maybe tied into Santa Marta but those

128:11

have actually they have a developed cult

128:15

persona where they're they're tied to at

128:18

least a mythical if not a historical

128:20

personage so you would think that they

128:26

would have an easier time developing

128:27

into something as fully as full-blown is

128:32

what's going on with the Santa Muerte

128:33

tradition but they haven't and they

128:36

they've been around you know as open

128:40

[Music]

128:42

traditions longer so you know for some

128:46

reason Santa Muerte took off where they

128:50

did you know and was able to you know

128:53

grow in ways that they haven't been able

128:55

to and so that it is interesting that

128:58

you know here you've got a female

129:00

representation of death that takes on

129:03

qualities that death really has never

129:06

taken on him you know in u.s. culture so

129:09

despite that neither is these male

129:11

interpretations of death down in the

129:13

same area they're not catching on as

129:15

much as the feminine up here in you know

129:19

northern New Jersey New York and the

129:22

Brooklyn area when it comes to the old

129:24

spirituality community the first time at

129:26

least I bumped into the notion of the

129:27

goddess was through Terence Mckenna

129:29

and he always harps on the goddess and

129:32

divine energy and then later I picked up

129:34

a book much later I picked up a book

129:36

called the sacred prostitute which was

129:38

by a Jungian analyst for young in

129:40

analysts and just seeing this rise this

129:45

return of like the female oriented

129:47

archetypes

129:49

I'm sure you've sort of bumped into it

129:51

as well

129:53

I mean it's it's interesting in terms of

130:00

again this is another area that I have

130:03

difficulty with because of the the

130:07

contemplative tradition never lost that

130:10

so in terms of the influences that have

130:16

been important you know in what I would

130:18

have always been interested in studying

130:20

since I was you know like a kid it's

130:24

always been kind of like related to like

130:26

the troubadour tradition or you know

130:28

it's always had like an aspect of kind

130:30

of the Divine Feminine so you know

130:35

thinking about what kind of drivers

130:36

there are I think one of the things that

130:38

is a flaw in my own research and that is

130:41

that I usually only research stuff I

130:42

mean I'm interested in you know I mean

130:46

it's kind of it in some way it's kind of

130:47

like piqued my curiosity so I don't

130:50

always have like the the objective

130:51

distance from it so to see like the

130:54

development of like I mean cuz there's

130:56

obvious social drivers and the fact that

130:58

you know we live in a culture that's

131:00

very male-dominated and it's again we

131:02

live in a flawed culture so there's kind

131:05

of like a return to a balance you know

131:07

that's necessary to bring those out you

131:10

know and then but with the

131:11

popularization too I think that a lot of

131:13

the the alternative spiritualities that

131:16

came forward because of what the

131:19

alternative culture was you know because

131:23

if you think about the the different

131:25

things you had the you know women's

131:26

rights you had gay rights you had free

131:29

love you know and you have free love

131:30

back into like the 1800s you know or I'm

131:33

sorry like back into the forever

131:36

I mean you know there were Gnostic

131:37

heresies there were free love heresies

131:39

William Blake was part of a Christian

131:43

sect you know practice at times sort of

131:47

free love ideas so you know that's

131:50

always kind of improvement but those

131:51

those ideas that have always been kind

131:54

of tied to the alternative have been

131:57

tied to that sense of you know what we

132:00

would consider like a minority group in

132:03

terms of power in society that's always

132:05

the alternative

132:06

you know so it doesn't surprise me that

132:07

the alternative spirituality in kind of

132:10

society that consistently refers to God

132:14

is him and that kind of stuff you know I

132:18

mean it would just make sense then that

132:19

the alternative spirituality would be

132:21

feminine you know don't you yeah yeah I

132:24

think you're right in some in the sense

132:26

that it's maybe that it's not so much

132:29

alternative anymore where now it's

132:30

becoming mainstream where it's becoming

132:33

the you know the thing that is no longer

132:35

alternative although it's not what you

132:38

know maybe most people consider the norm

132:42

Santa Muerte differs very strongly from

132:46

a male interpretation of the Grim Reaper

132:49

yeah there's no I don't think there's

132:54

any loving male Grim Reaper's well I

132:56

guess actually no that's not true

132:59

Azazel you've got sick lela lela Waddell

133:07

the necrophile down in Louisiana

133:13

I think Wow well she runs like a like a

133:19

death cult

133:19

kind of thing but she's she's real open

133:22

about her practice and she feels that

133:25

she's got a relationship with the Angel

133:26

of Death who I think in her senses like

133:29

is a male presence you know so buddy I

133:32

mean that obviously didn't catch on but

133:34

I don't think we have like a huge at

133:37

least not publicly so but it definitely

133:41

done yes Santa Muerte doesn't have the

133:43

same kind of aggressive wow that's not I

133:46

don't know because she there's an

133:48

aggressiveness to it it's different

133:50

though yeah it's subtly different than a

133:52

male let me I'm thinking yeah the

133:54

thought that came to my mind is or at

133:56

least the elements of the Grim Reaper as

133:58

a male form is that you have a kind of

134:01

trickster persona and one who will play

134:03

games of either chance or skill with you

134:05

and then at the very end we'll just sort

134:08

of you know take you in a way that he

134:12

cashes in with a sort of industrial

134:15

indifference and that even though Santa

134:18

Muerte

134:15

indifference and that even though Santa

134:18

Muerte

134:19

the feminized version of this you know

134:22

does have a kind of neutrality and

134:24

indifference in the sense that Death

134:26

Comes to all she seems to enter in a way

134:30

where she's actually welcomed where in

134:32

the Grim Reaper even if it's the skull

134:34

on the desk of the thinker the

134:35

philosopher reflects on the skull subtly

134:40

different you know having the Grim

134:43

Reaper man in the room with you is kind

134:46

of a scary notion but having the Grim

134:48

Reaper woman in the room with you is

134:50

it's strangely hugely more calming and

134:55

welcoming as a reality I found at least

134:58

and the other thing he brought up which

135:00

I didn't expect was this talk about when

135:03

communing with Santa Muerte this idea of

135:08

silence how there's a silence and

135:10

there's vacant eyes but yet there's a

135:13

kind of transmission that's an on

135:15

transmission can you go into that yeah I

135:19

mean that was that was something that I

135:21

I came to through just trying to you

135:26

know access the tradition because it's

135:29

not the none of the textural materials

135:33

really effective for doing that and it's

135:36

really something that you've kind of got

135:38

to access because I mean if you look at

135:39

the the iconography is you have to work

135:44

with it's not it's not it's easily

135:46

decodable you know as most iconographic

135:51

symbolism because it's so simple in a

135:53

lot of ways so you know in some ways

135:57

comes out of like a very commercial

135:58

context but it gets such powerful you

136:02

know kind of results from the devotees

136:03

you know reactions and that but I found

136:07

that the only really effective way was

136:09

to actually you know get down in with

136:11

the iconography and actually kind of

136:13

relate to it and and work with it and

136:17

yeah there's a kind of silence there

136:20

which Dona kata talks about and it comes

136:23

up I think in the in a documentary that

136:25

you're you referenced earlier where a

136:29

guy's taking his kid to the Santa Muerte

136:32

right and you know the kid looks at the

136:34

thing and the guys explaining you know

136:36

this is this is my godmother this is

136:39

your godmother and all that stuff and

136:40

the kids reaction is like she's got

136:42

empty eyes you know she's got eyes so

136:45

but that struck me is really profound

136:48

you know because again it plays into the

136:50

concept of neutrality and all this stuff

136:52

it's a really powerful symbol with it

136:53

you know in that silence as well there

136:56

was something that don't okay to

136:57

mentioned which had been something that

136:59

came out of from Eve when I was was

137:02

looking at the iconography had kind of

137:04

gotten that sense and then Dominic ADA

137:06

said it as well that was sort

137:07

interpretation of it was the the silence

137:12

but the silence the answers you know in

137:14

a way that you know you kind of talked

137:17

about earlier that goes beyond you know

137:20

that you know it goes into that state of

137:23

non-being you know yeah it's it was

137:28

surprised I think that's one of the

137:30

other reasons why I was so struck by

137:31

this by Santa Muerte was that there was

137:35

an immediate dialog in the idea that

137:38

just one day you will look like this one

137:41

day you will be this I'm this right now

137:44

but one day you will be this - right

137:48

yeah had that you know Gnostic level of

137:51

of really a kind of profound acceptance

137:56

right there I mean and I and the other

137:58

thing that I wanted to mention about

138:00

looking at that documentary footage and

138:02

and some of the newsreel footage I've

138:04

been watching all of this good stuff

138:07

will be linked below by the way is that

138:09

you it's it's so strangely comforting

138:15

it's you know just this idea and the vid

138:19

to see it to see people talk to this

138:22

death icon which is supposed to

138:24

represent death the reality was

138:28

something that I wasn't able to

138:30

anticipate or prepare myself for the

138:34

emotional reaction to it because you

138:36

realize people will talk to all kinds of

138:38

fairies they'll talk to aliens they'll

138:40

talk to

138:41

they'll channel aliens they'll talk to

138:44

spirits they'll talk

138:45

- you know you know they'll talk to the

138:48

most obscure deities out there but very

138:50

very few will talk to death let alone

138:54

and adorned death one that one that is

138:57

actually I mean it's it's gonna sound

139:00

weird to people who haven't spent time

139:03

with this icon but it becomes like

139:06

profoundly beautiful in that in its just

139:10

utter reality that one will be this and

139:12

that one's speaking with it right now

139:14

yeah that I you know you've got like a

139:17

name like La Nina Bonita like the

139:19

beautiful girl you know diamond and

139:21

they're serious about that like you hear

139:23

the the devotees are very you know

139:26

explicit about the idea of how beautiful

139:28

she is and how you know look at this

139:30

beautiful powerful woman you know that

139:33

is death you know and and just like

139:36

lauding you know just the beauty and the

139:39

profundity of it and it's it is

139:41

interesting because you know no matter

139:43

what your association with it if you

139:47

don't dismiss it you know and you

139:49

actually spend time with the symbols it

139:53

does it takes on that that realization

139:55

you know and there is there's there's a

139:58

meditation where you meditate on

140:02

dissolving to a skeleton then the

140:04

skeleton disappears in life and that

140:07

that is there is a meditation tradition

140:09

based on that I don't know if it's

140:11

Taoist or Buddhist or what you know what

140:16

tradition that comes out of but there is

140:20

that there is that tradition there is

140:22

that meditation technique and what's

140:24

interesting is thing again you know with

140:26

the the idea that being confronted with

140:30

this symbol of death you're literally

140:33

confronted with death and then able to

140:34

have that relationship that goes back to

140:37

the ideas like the harrowing of how and

140:39

the prints going down to meet death and

140:41

that in looking at the iconography like

140:44

you described and you know this idea of

140:45

thats going to be me and that kind of

140:47

thing you have access to things very

140:51

similar to the you know the skeleton

140:55

meditation so

140:58

you know or there's there are Taoist

141:01

meditations like those meditations on

141:03

the skull and that kind of stuff so you

141:06

have within this folk tradition access

141:10

to some of the most sophisticated

141:11

contemplative traditions right simply in

141:15

the invitation to because a lot of the

141:17

stuff that gets missed when you know

141:21

let's say you go to a yoga class or

141:23

something like that

141:24

are you fully devoted in a loving way to

141:26

yoga usually hot not to yoga maybe to

141:29

getting it to getting healthy to get

141:31

whatever but not to yoga and if you go

141:34

and you go into that yoga class and I

141:35

like o meditate on this skull it's you

141:37

it's whatever you don't have that that

141:40

kind of relationship you may you may

141:42

access that but it's not necessarily

141:44

encouraged by the experience but when

141:46

you're faced with this figure and you

141:48

don't dismiss it and you have that

141:50

interaction with it there's an

141:52

invitation there to not worshiping

141:55

devotion but just a devotion of love to

141:58

this thing that is always with you you

142:01

know and it starts to speak on that

142:02

level and because of that it doesn't

142:06

have the artificial artificial 'ti that

142:09

yoga has and because it's so terrifying

142:10

because it's not necessarily an

142:12

initially Pleasant meditation or a

142:15

pleasant invitation to conversation with

142:20

an idea or a mat you know a

142:22

contemplation or a symbol set because it

142:26

has that unpleasantness if you go

142:27

through that it has a level of

142:30

engagement again that encourages a type

142:33

of relationship that's not the same as

142:36

if you just go to yoga class or if you

142:37

you know learn meditation or do you know

142:40

anything kind of self-willed you know

142:42

now that's great because it can take us

142:44

right into a psychedelic dialogue right

142:47

there because you can't talk about

142:48

transformation and yoga and

142:50

enlightenment and meditation without

142:52

bringing up a psychedelic component

142:55

right there

142:56

it's definitely is that the new the new

142:59

psychedelic era we cannot discuss any

143:03

form of we approaching altered states of

143:06

consciousness unless we in some way

143:08

address the psychedelic question because

143:10

we

143:11

out in the psychedelic era because of

143:14

terence mckenna's CIA a clap to thoughts

143:18

the whole society to pig yeah that's

143:21

what I heard I heard that this was all a

143:23

major con from the beginning to end and

143:26

that we and and that the whole like

143:28

ayahuasca situation is a front this it

143:33

doesn't have to do with the real power

143:34

the CIA wants you to hallucinate

143:36

yourself and together to make neither

143:38

the merge this the rumor around the

143:42

campfire right now is this yeah around

143:46

the glowing digital campfire that's

143:48

beyond Irving is spreading the bird on

143:50

the like well at the same time

143:54

supporting psychedelics there's some

143:58

there's some sort of amazing looping

144:01

paradox there which again is the

144:02

nitpicky detail weirdness that you can

144:04

kind of you know if you're a good

144:07

Discordian right you're real good

144:12

discarding that's so wonderful it's so

144:17

wonderful no I meant like just bringing

144:19

it up in the sense that you know yoga

144:21

Zen psyche Delia NASA MLK like all this

144:27

stuff kind of showed up at almost the

144:29

same time at least for the American

144:31

consciousness you know so it's it's not

144:33

to say that yeah yeah yeah yeah no but

144:36

it's just another it's just another you

144:38

know facet to this thing is that you you

144:39

can't knock it I mean cuz even even even

144:41

the even the Santa Muerte devotees

144:44

there's like classic to use marijuana as

144:47

a incense and an offering and to blow it

144:50

you know on this statue so I mean I just

144:52

wanted to bring that up and that's

144:54

another thing too that I think like

144:55

people in the u.s. like just don't seem

144:57

to react well to that yeah I mean like

145:01

obviously unless like the people are

145:03

smoking themselves like and then they

145:05

kind of rejoice for it but like they

145:07

don't react well I know there was one

145:09

there's one news program and I don't

145:13

know it was like I think it was like a

145:14

Travel Channel kind of thing and the guy

145:16

went down to look at the Santa Muerte

145:19

shrines

145:20

and he happened to be a guy who really

145:21

enjoyed cigars so as a juror

145:24

he was really kind of weirded out and

145:26

not to end the whole Santa Muerte thing

145:28

until he realized that he could be in a

145:31

sanctuary smoking a cigar blowing it on

145:34

the statue and that was considered a

145:36

devotional thing and then he kind of got

145:38

into it he was kind of like yeah I like

145:40

this you know yeah I would like that too

145:43

sorry you were saying oh no ya know I

145:46

mean so they that was in some ways that

145:48

can be a bond but I think most people

145:50

are kind of weirded out by that you know

145:52

that your people are especially like

145:54

cigarettes and stuff like that where you

145:55

know people are smoking cigarettes and

145:57

blowing it in their face and that's

146:00

sharing the cigarette with her that's

146:02

that's kind of a long tradition to the

146:04

tobacco and the dead and that in a lot

146:07

of Latin American traditions is very

146:08

probable so yeah I am I really like that

146:13

a lot and I could see why they call her

146:15

cabrona because she's like part of the

146:17

people part of the family like you're

146:18

not gonna hide things from her what you

146:20

like she likes that kind of thing you

146:23

know I mean especially if it's gonna be

146:24

you know something like cigarettes right

146:28

yeah exactly very down-to-earth you know

146:30

yeah that's that's the other thing is

146:32

that the discrimination that we see the

146:35

lack of discrimination that we see

146:38

around Santa Muerte Santa Muerte is

146:40

embraced by people who identify as

146:42

Catholics by people who do not identify

146:44

as Catholics by you know transgendered

146:50

persons prostitutes

146:55

you know people people in the sex

146:56

industry people in all kinds of people

146:58

in a you know in places where when you

147:01

approach the church as this person

147:03

you're turned away yeah yeah that was

147:06

the story of our Lee who's the shrine

147:09

holder in Queens right um you know she's

147:13

trans the Catholic I think the priest

147:16

actually told her during confession why

147:18

are you here you don't belong here and

147:21

she had some intense experiences where

147:23

she was fearful of I think a friend had

147:27

recommended that she petitioned and I

147:30

kind of Santa Muerte or take a picture

147:32

of Santa Muerte home with her or

147:34

something but she at first was afraid

147:36

and then

147:37

a kind of profound experience with it

147:39

and now she's the you know the Guardian

147:42

for the shrine in Queens so it's

147:46

definitely trans they have gay lesbian

147:51

bi trans definitely huge maybe not huge

147:58

I don't know it's hard to tell cuz it

147:59

there's real there's really no

148:00

statistics on the number of people who

148:02

follow it you know that's definitely a

148:05

prevalent part of the the cult of

148:08

eastern Mexico you know and probably a

148:11

bottom you know well she doesn't she

148:14

doesn't like push people away you can be

148:16

poor or rich or young or older or

148:19

whatever but the whole idea is that

148:21

death comes mother death will always

148:23

come the holy death will always come for

148:25

you so you don't have to worry what you

148:28

have to worry about is trying to have

148:31

some kind of happy death and what does

148:33

it mean for you to have a happy death

148:35

right now that brings us to I guess you

148:40

know how you can't you can't not look at

148:44

this this neutrality in a miracle work

148:47

that you find with the Santa Muerte

148:49

without kind of bumping into the classic

148:53

latin maxim of tenant NOS or no sei's

148:56

know thyself and through this kind of

148:59

wish magic you get a kind of mirror

149:02

image of your soul because whatever you

149:04

ask of Santa Muerte is gonna directly

149:07

reflect the quality of your

149:09

consciousness where you are as a being

149:11

developed and so on and and your honesty

149:14

which we also see back with the

149:15

marijuana and the cigarettes is that

149:17

this is a kind of honest deity that you

149:19

don't have to play games with you know

149:22

this the the transaction seems pretty

149:25

simple is that if you do something for

149:27

it it'll do something for you and you

149:29

can be whatever you are because she is

149:31

always arriving or always here right but

149:35

the with the with the same like you can

149:37

you will do something for her a lot of

149:39

that is pretty intense in some sense

149:43

where you know people promise sections

149:45

of their skin to it you know so

149:49

a lot of the tattoos that come out of

149:52

the tradition are there for prayer that

149:55

was granted so the person dedicated that

149:57

portion of their flesh to Santa Muerte

150:01

you know so in that sense the give and

150:04

take is you know it can be pretty

150:05

extreme they can you know up here that

150:08

with another you know kind of lost in

150:11

translation thing is the idea of like

150:13

the level of what a gift to Santa Muerte

150:16

can be well you know that's funny that

150:19

it just it just brings it just brought

150:21

something to my mind is that the more

150:23

the more one petitions and does these

150:25

transactions with Santa Muerte and has

150:28

positive results the more holy death you

150:31

will find in the world in the form of

150:33

icons altars images t-shirts statues

150:38

tattoos you will or poems or

150:41

what-have-you or whatever it's gonna be

150:42

is that the more centum where I take

150:45

works the more Santa Muerte will take

150:49

over our world yeah that's a good boy

150:52

that's a good that's a very good point

150:54

yeah yeah and the barometer is rather

150:57

striking because from the statistics I

151:00

got from your colleague it's something

151:02

like 10 million people as I mentioned

151:05

from Chile to Canada yeah and there's no

151:08

way to tell really fully I mean the the

151:12

the commercial stuff may be an indicator

151:16

that botanicals are some became Samba

151:21

tanika's in LA in that are reporting up

151:23

to fit like 50% of their income comes

151:25

from Santa Muerte

151:27

so enough to keep open a store I'm about

151:31

to recommend to all my friends who have

151:34

spiritually based shops that he should

151:37

really stock up on Santa Muerte stuff

151:39

because I mean you know I want to buy it

151:41

I want to shit you know it's a very

151:43

potent platform obviously I mean even

151:46

just for me as like a totally novice

151:49

gringo who just bumped into this thing

151:51

thanks to you it's like wow the okay

151:54

going back to what I was going to say

151:56

about the psychedelics is that the

151:58

reason why I harped on it was because of

152:00

the trance

152:02

that suppose it right I think it's

152:04

legitimate right because you see like

152:06

Columbia University doing work with

152:08

psilocybin and cancer patients facing

152:10

death anxiety Accenture I think it was

152:12

Columbia Bay have been in New York

152:13

another New York institution but I know

152:15

it was something very prestigious like

152:17

that but this idea that you know when

152:21

one focuses it on an icon or a deity or

152:24

a goddess or something like that

152:27

generally though not exclusively I think

152:30

we find that it has to do it there's

152:31

always this element especially in

152:33

religion and philosophy and whatnot you

152:35

know of the transformation and that one

152:39

has a relationship with an icon or a

152:42

text a scripture a Dharma or

152:44

what-have-you

152:45

where a relationship is being fostered

152:48

and you know I'm in my own case when I

152:50

was younger of course you know ravaged

152:53

by hormones and my teens Buddhism made

152:55

like a lot of sense because it was like

152:56

oh you just calm down man you just chill

152:59

out

152:59

hey you just look like this just be a

153:01

dude man just be a dude but you know in

153:04

later years of course like you get into

153:06

it and so like the desired thing goes

153:08

out the window

153:09

but the you're like ya know let's ride

153:12

this snake fuck it yeah sorry

153:15

excuse me excuse me but I wonder if I'll

153:20

keep that in but the the this this like

153:27

well you know for me personally as an

153:30

icon I can appreciate a figure like

153:33

Christ and esoteric and mystical kind of

153:37

sense in the standard sort of Protestant

153:39

or Catholic version it kind of falls

153:42

flat for me but when you look at them as

153:44

like you know the magician archetype or

153:46

something like that it becomes more

153:47

attractive or as one half of the

153:49

alchemical process with Mary then that

153:52

becomes kind of attractive as well but

153:55

generally it doesn't really do much for

153:56

me icons don't really do it for me

153:58

they're kind of fun to experiment with

153:59

but they don't really do it for me I

154:01

don't feel them like transforming me

154:03

they're appealing for a while and then I

154:04

kind of dropped them with my initial

154:09

reaction with Santa Muerte is like this

154:12

could really do serious good

154:16

transformative work and that's why I

154:17

brought up like the psychedelics for

154:19

example where it's if you have a

154:22

relationship with this thing it feels

154:24

like and from the testimony I'm seeing

154:26

coming out of the Spanish community is

154:29

that it looks like that that this is

154:32

working it's working for them and it's

154:35

spreading so I mean that was something

154:39

like let's can you talk about like the

154:41

transformative element of associating

154:44

with this thing well and also I think

154:45

you know it's interesting when we see

154:50

the the iconography kind of come out in

154:53

the commercial products that most people

154:55

are seeing in the US and they if you go

154:57

on like at sea or Amazon t-shirts are a

155:00

lot of like Katrina Calavera influence

155:03

Day of the Dead kind of stuff but when

155:07

you look at the devotees pages on

155:10

Facebook and that there's a ton of

155:13

psychedelic artwork like really weird

155:15

collages like really like like birthday

155:19

balloons and like like confetti with

155:23

like Santa Muerte and a birthday cake

155:24

and stuff you know with like a thank you

155:27

it's you know and it was another thing

155:30

where the my first thought I was like

155:31

the hell is this you know is this and

155:36

then I was I started to look at it and I

155:38

was like oh wow this is just somebody

155:40

who's so moved that they went into

155:43

Photoshop or whatever they had maybe not

155:45

even Photoshop like you know whatever

155:47

like plank right right this collage that

155:51

they spent enough time to literally cut

155:54

out the birthday cake and cut out the

155:55

Santa Muerte statue picture and put it

155:58

into this collage with a thank you on it

156:01

and blast that to the public as a thank

156:04

you with no signature or anything but I

156:06

if you think about it like that's you

156:08

know the cutting and stuff like that

156:10

that's a good half hour to an hour or

156:12

more work depending on how good you are

156:14

with those you know digital tools and to

156:19

do that as a thank you to Santa Muerte

156:20

and to also have it be so innocent you

156:24

know that it's like a birthday cake with

156:26

some balloons and

156:27

the Santa Muerte statue um that was

156:31

amazing to me but the colors are like

156:33

incredible and you know they've she's

156:35

like floating in space and there's like

156:37

asteroids behind her it's like these

156:40

really intense collages all this you

156:42

know different really kind of

156:44

psychedelic artwork

156:45

you know so she kind of has that aspect

156:48

just and encountering her you know that

156:51

very colorful transformative very

156:54

vibrant and lively yeah I mean you look

156:56

at like the dough Nikita's son makes

157:00

wigs for the thing that's where one of

157:03

the Linea Bonita the the pretty girl is

157:06

usually associated at least around the

157:09

Tepito area with the santa muerte

157:11

statues that have wigs on to make her

157:14

pretty you know so there's there's just

157:18

this amazing aspect to it that I think

157:20

you know if you think about putting a

157:23

wig on a scalp chance that feud that

157:25

something of a psychedelic experience

157:27

they're like there's something kind of

157:29

hallucinatory about that something some

157:32

kind of announcement you know the word

157:34

psychedelic comes from like announcement

157:36

of the mine right now and when you're

157:38

putting the wig on a skeleton their mind

157:40

is announcing something beautiful dig

157:42

there's an announcement from the psyche

157:44

happening right there so I think yet

157:48

definitely just the devotions itself

157:50

have kind of a special e I mean for you

157:54

know we keep I don't even know how to

157:56

term it's a us or whatever I mean it's

157:59

such a diverse you know there's really

158:01

no generalities you can make butter I

158:03

would think that the majority of the

158:05

people in the u.s. to put a wig on the

158:07

skeleton for them would be somewhat home

158:11

you stand for take them out of their

158:13

normal state of being and give them some

158:16

no questions especially if they did it

158:17

in love you know maybe that's the whole

158:22

take home for this whole conversation we

158:25

when all said and done

158:27

find yourself a skeleton put a wig on it

158:30

love it and see what happens you know

158:33

just if you want to go the Santa Muerte

158:35

route that's probably the recommended

158:36

way because there's some kind of

158:37

traditional basis there

158:39

makes it a little bit safer and you're

158:41

not gonna get super weird with it but

158:43

like maybe just the wig in the skeleton

158:47

would be enough for most people in the

158:48

United States to get them out of the the

158:51

general technological mass media digital

158:54

make like a slipper and you know oh my

158:58

god oh man thank you one what the other

159:06

thing on on just the because I mean I

159:08

imagine and you know yeah we can skirt

159:11

it if if you'd like but I I imagine for

159:14

your case since you're spending so much

159:16

time on it you're running the website

159:18

skeleton st. and you're working with our

159:22

Android chestnut right now and it looks

159:25

like a lot of like literature material

159:28

and media could come out of this thing

159:30

that I mean I could imagine my I see

159:33

myself spending time I mean there was

159:35

times where I was kind of interested in

159:36

like well let's see like look at the

159:38

Golden Dawn let's take a look at the

159:40

Lima let's take a look at you know you

159:42

know Peter Carroll and these kind of

159:44

guys with sort of methodologies and

159:45

modalities and ideas are they playing

159:47

with and you know it just kind of feels

159:49

like a tangled web of you know just

159:52

stolen stuff not that that's a bad thing

159:54

not that it doesn't have effect but when

159:57

you when I you know spent time looking

159:59

at this Santa Muerte figure it was just

160:02

like you could feel that could feel the

160:05

change already happening and the kind of

160:08

the funniest things I like the most

160:10

anecdotal example I can give is that I

160:12

have a door in my room that creaks to

160:16

high heaven and it's the most unnerving

160:18

creak that you can hear you know I've

160:23

had people in my house like where their

160:24

hair raises because I got a window open

160:26

and my door creaks I mean it's just bad

160:28

it's just this bat and whenever it

160:30

creaks I always get up and close the

160:32

door entirely this is like a tick I've

160:35

had for years ever since I've had this a

160:37

door in my life I have been closing it

160:39

because it's just not a cool sound

160:42

it feels really bad like whenever you

160:45

hear whenever you hear this door creak

160:47

you feel like anything could be on the

160:49

other side and it's totally legitimate I

160:50

don't care

160:51

like what world you live in but here

160:53

this Creek it feels like it's announcing

160:56

you know the horror of the deep yeah get

161:00

ready but as I'm looking and I'm telling

161:03

you this is a tick this is something

161:04

I've always always always done and yet

161:08

last night when I'm looking at the same

161:10

time where it Santa Muerte material no

161:13

kidding

161:13

my door creaks and I let it go and I let

161:18

it go for like 20 minutes and it creaks

161:20

and since I always close the door

161:22

it creaked in new ways because I'm

161:26

always like shot up close the door but

161:28

this time I like let it open because I

161:30

was literally feeling the fear and

161:32

feeling it Milt just from looking at

161:36

this icon the Santa Muerte and as it was

161:39

melting I'm not even kidding the door

161:41

took on this new dynamic range of

161:44

creaking that I previously had no idea

161:47

was capable of and it was much more

161:48

sinister and horrible sounding like it

161:51

was just John Carpenter at the door you

161:53

know well that's great though cuz that's

161:55

like you know people pay to go to noise

162:00

performances that probably aren't as

162:02

evocative as you through Santa Muerte

162:06

were able to have an experience last

162:08

night that was probably someone's like

162:11

dream in Berlin or something you know

162:14

you or you were able to experience a

162:16

symphony that no one has heard the

162:18

private performance by the elements you

162:22

know it's it's funny you mention it

162:24

because I have there's been I got really

162:26

attached to my house here in New Jersey

162:28

probably more so than I should but for a

162:31

while there's a threat that like

162:33

everyone we're moving out you know that

162:35

happens every couple of years and it

162:36

turns out we're not and what I always

162:38

wanted to do is create an experimental

162:40

album called house music where I'd put

162:42

like a microphone in each room and

162:45

record it for several hours and then put

162:47

together like a 18 hour long album

162:49

called house music like this is what the

162:50

basement sounds like this is what my

162:52

creaky door sounds like it might come

162:57

out one day yeah inspired by Santa

163:00

Muerte you'll have to give a thanks in

163:02

there Oh she'll be on the cover

163:04

she'll be on the cover of a lot of my

163:05

stuff right now my fucking Facebook is

163:07

already covered by well that was that

163:13

Matt's tags the editor for dissing Co

163:16

well when I think I was up in Chicago

163:21

from Georgia and I've been researching

163:25

for I think two days straight and it was

163:28

just I I had I had a ton of stuff to do

163:31

and I was presenting somewhere and I had

163:33

to do a bunch of stuff so I was I was it

163:36

was over stressed like overtired and I

163:38

was researching Santa Muerte and you

163:41

know I was struggling through the

163:42

translations on the Spanish and I like

163:45

broke the point where I was like I don't

163:47

even care that I can't read Spanish I'm

163:49

just gonna read it you know right and so

163:51

I was able to read more than I had been

163:55

before when I was struggling with it

163:56

which was awesome so I started doing

163:58

more translations than that and I

164:00

started posting that you know links to

164:04

some of the stuff that I was finding but

164:05

I was posting it in Spanish and like

164:07

posting quotes from some of the prayers

164:09

and that and Matt's tags from disinfo

164:12

sent me a note and he was like are you

164:13

okay going insane because it was all

164:17

this escapes like all these skeleton

164:20

yours and then like you know Holmes

164:22

about love of the Grim Reaper and that

164:25

you know like all this great stuff that

164:26

I was finding and that was like I'm kind

164:29

of concerned by like what's going on you

164:32

know and I didn't know you was serious

164:34

because I was excited you know so I was

164:36

started quoting back to him in Spanish

164:38

it was exciting and then he got like

164:40

really concerned and so yeah it can

164:43

definitely it can take you know

164:46

definitely because it's so it is so

164:48

potent and it is it is once you get into

164:51

it I know I've been joking and stuff

164:53

like that but it's a beautiful tradition

164:54

you know so I think yeah I don't know it

165:00

definitely has that ability to kind of

165:01

skirt and yeah there was a joke earlier

165:04

where David said that he was someone

165:07

someone was concerned that maybe he'd

165:09

drunk drank the Santa Muerte kool-aid

165:11

and I told him I was already swimming in

165:13

a pool of it so we should probably do an

165:16

interview

165:18

yeah no it's in also you know if you got

165:21

the editor of disinfo asking you if

165:23

you're okay okay as you're frantically

165:27

posting you know tons of Santa Muerte

165:29

information yeah you know and that's

165:32

that's how people react to it though I

165:33

mean you know people are on people who

165:35

you would not think are really unnerved

165:38

by the whole thing just because of the

165:41

iconography and kind of how it's been

165:43

portrayed in the media people get real

165:45

uncomfortable if they don't have a good

165:47

explanation for it you know and

165:49

something I was gonna talk about with

165:50

the potency to you'd mentioned you know

165:54

coming from like the Golden Dawn and

165:55

chaos magic and that kind of stuff sure

165:58

um

165:59

again something that I don't think you

166:02

know it's possible here in the US to

166:03

access it still I mean there's still art

166:06

folk traditions that are alive in that

166:07

but most people who are looking at magic

166:09

or the occult and that kind of thing

166:10

aren't going to where the folk

166:12

traditions exist that's right when you

166:15

encounter Santa Muerte

166:16

you know you encounter it in the u.s.

166:18

through kind of like the ax culture so

166:20

it seems like one thing and then when

166:22

you start to tap in deeper you it's not

166:24

you know because it's actually a

166:25

tradition it's a faith tradition it's a

166:27

devotional tradition this isn't a

166:29

magical system or you know in the way

166:31

that we would think of it or you know

166:35

this isn't somebody you like going back

166:37

to folklore and kind of building

166:39

something like this is literally a

166:41

tradition that has grown from the ground

166:44

up you know and for whatever influences

166:46

folklore and that kind of stuff and

166:48

academics and that have had on it it's

166:51

very much a true folk tradition so when

166:56

you encounter it you're not just

166:57

encountering an idea second hand or

167:00

third hand or whatever and kind of

167:02

reworked for the society right you're

167:04

really encountering a living tradition

167:06

that's still in the really interesting

167:09

thing about it is that it's still in

167:12

development so you're encountering a you

167:15

know a living faith tradition that has

167:18

come from the ground up it's come from

167:20

very very raw elements of you know

167:23

symbolism in that very potent potentials

167:26

still growing still developing and

167:29

inviting

167:30

people to engage it you know so it's a

167:33

different feeling than coming to you

167:36

know something like the golden dawn or

167:38

you know chaos magic or something like

167:40

that

167:41

right where those are kind of either

167:43

they're established or there's a certain

167:46

rules and play that one builds with or

167:49

uses this is really more like really

167:52

dealing with an actual and I love that

167:54

we're bringing up devotional where it's

167:56

like no you have a devotional

167:58

relationship with death as process and

168:01

it's been it's it's this female version

168:04

of it which grants wishes and whatnot

168:07

but that's what you're having a

168:08

relationship with it makes me wonder

168:10

this is it's so decentralized which is

168:12

one of the other reasons why I'm so

168:13

excited about it is because it's truly

168:16

avant-garde it's truly the avant-garde

168:20

spirituality that all right that I'm

168:22

aware of at least right now at least

168:23

it's far more avant-garde than you know

168:26

and I'm not trying to knock people down

168:28

but we were having a me and you know one

168:33

of the one of the people who's

168:35

associated with one of Crowley's

168:38

spiritual systems were joking about

168:40

peaches the model or the actress who was

168:42

coming out saying like I love the öto

168:44

the oto is great and we were saying like

168:46

well she may have done more for thelema

168:48

and Crowley did right there in that

168:49

moment but just as kind of like a joke

168:52

but on the side here the idea that no

168:55

this isn't a system this is you working

168:57

with this entity it's like entity work

169:00

and in a way at least that's what I want

169:02

to call it so because of that what do

169:06

you have to say about any kind of texts

169:08

or squares or prayers or things that are

169:12

coming out because like you said it's

169:14

it's being born right now and it might

169:16

start - it might it might not be but it

169:19

might become less potent once it becomes

169:22

organized in a way I mean I mean well I

169:25

you know it would be hard to see it

169:28

becoming organized um simply because

169:32

right now I mean if you if you look at I

169:34

don't think they'll ever be like an

169:36

Orthodox Church of Santa Muerte you know

169:39

and if you look at the way that it's

169:41

going right now in terms of

169:44

Church structure all the different

169:47

sanctuaries and shrines in that they all

169:49

have different very very strong

169:51

personalities that run them and take

169:54

care of them

169:55

and the each shrine has its own history

169:58

and each of the people that are shrine

170:00

holders have their own very potent

170:02

histories so it's very much related to

170:07

the communities that she comes up in and

170:09

the people who feel devoted enough to

170:13

create a shrine and in their stories you

170:16

know it's very because again the

170:18

accountant graphing in symbolism and

170:20

there's no there's no origin man there's

170:22

no backstory to it there's no you know

170:28

account of a birth and you know whatever

170:30

there simply is Santa Muerte

170:32

and so you know and we can go back into

170:36

historical and you know things that led

170:38

into it but as a tradition there's no

170:40

origin myth you know the Devi shrine

170:43

holder kind of has a different story for

170:44

what's in where take came from and you

170:47

know how that how the iconographic

170:48

developed so with that I don't think

170:54

they'll ever be a centralization you

170:57

know it's a very almost you know I need

171:00

if you look at the the one time you'd

171:01

mentioned the bulldozing of the the

171:03

shrines on the border right that came

171:06

right after or right around the time

171:08

that David Romo who was the Archbishop

171:13

of the Santa Muerte Church in Mexico he

171:20

got he got okayed by the Mexican

171:24

government you know he got the okay to

171:26

be an official Church he got like the

171:27

official sanction and he then proceeded

171:31

to declare a holy war on the Catholic

171:35

Church all out like the current

171:38

president what the the bulldozing of

171:41

those shrines like in a way was also the

171:44

action to what was going on because of

171:46

the centralization of Santa Muerte into

171:49

this very contentious thing whereas now

171:53

most of the shrine holders don't get

171:55

that political with this stuff at all

171:57

so even in terms of the Catholic Church

171:59

and that they're very careful about how

172:01

they talk about things so and they don't

172:05

really necessarily have rivalries and

172:09

they don't really necessarily have

172:11

connections other than that they're all

172:15

with you know they're all practicing

172:17

this devotion to Santa Muerte and like I

172:20

said each of them have a different story

172:22

you know la madrina Vargas

172:26

whose holds the shrine that has the

172:29

largest Santa Muerte statue her son was

172:33

a devotee and she was a devout Catholic

172:37

her son was killed under questionable

172:39

circumstances and I think he had a

172:42

hundred or so bullets in his body when

172:44

they found him Wow um so she bowed to

172:48

Santa Muerte that although she was a

172:50

faithful Catholic if Santa Muerte

172:52

granted her vengeance for her son's

172:54

death that she would she would you know

172:59

pay that back by running the shrine and

173:01

keeping it going

173:02

and by bringing Santa Muerte sneem into

173:04

the public so a couple months passed

173:09

she felt that that had been fulfilled

173:11

and so now today she's the shrine holder

173:15

for that shrine and she holds you know

173:17

the mass I don't know she holds masses

173:18

but shield services and you know has a

173:23

has a Facebook presence and is a you

173:26

know a big centralizing factor for that

173:29

community that community you know she's

173:31

always talking about community issues

173:34

about missing children's reports you

173:38

know who needs how what's going on so

173:41

she's very active in the community

173:42

through the presence of Santa Muerte

173:44

Dona que de has the Santa Muerte shrine

173:48

and she's known you know people come to

173:50

her for advice and stuff like that so

173:53

she's very much community leader there

173:55

so really what you see instead of

173:57

centralization is you see kind of

174:01

communities centralizing around

174:03

themselves around the figure of Santa

174:06

Muerte there's this neutral ground

174:08

you know so that

174:10

hopefully as it grows I mean the

174:12

question is is because a lot of what I'm

174:14

seeing is that the second that it comes

174:18

into the United States the commercial

174:19

elements start to like really explode

174:21

and then you also start to have

174:23

conversations with really strong social

174:28

faith traditions you know in like scenes

174:31

and stuff like that that start to try to

174:33

appropriate parts of it so it'll be

174:35

interesting to see what that you know as

174:37

because even you know starting to get

174:40

out to Europe and stuff like that like

174:41

the products a lot of the products that

174:44

are sold are made in China you know so

174:46

there's a presence and shops in like

174:48

Hong Kong and that so it'll be

174:51

interesting to see what happens when she

174:54

goes to international and yeah maybe

174:58

loses some of the community centeredness

174:59

of the tradition there's two things I

175:02

would like to mention from that and one

175:03

of them is this was a hot article when

175:06

it came out but that there was a vey vey

175:09

an American Apparel in New York City and

175:11

for those of you who don't know if Vevey

175:13

is a traditional who do sort of like

175:16

symbol portal magical symbol thing and

175:19

it was right in the middle of this in

175:22

the it wasn't you know baby is food ooh

175:25

it's the the gate for the gods that's

175:28

like the gods signature that's like one

175:30

of a sacred like you know aspects of the

175:34

ritual and here it that represents the

175:36

low you know right the lower exactly

175:39

exactly and so here it is in the front

175:41

display window of this New York City

175:44

American Apparel store and you know you

175:48

can't help but look at it and go like

175:50

you know in my case like ah damn you

175:54

know it's just kind of like and it was

175:56

the it was the I don't know the name of

175:58

the law yet but the one that guarded the

176:00

crossroads the Crossroads lower leg row

176:03

yeah and here it is there the other

176:07

thing that you just brought to mind

176:08

which is what we're doing right now and

176:11

I didn't realize it but this is the

176:13

whole folk religion element of it is

176:16

that it is decentralized what happens

176:19

you have an entity or a force or a

176:22

practice or something

176:24

people engage it and then they get

176:25

together and this is what all the

176:27

documentary stuff I've been seeing is

176:28

people get together and they start

176:30

telling stories about what their

176:33

experience with this thing was right

176:36

yeah exactly yeah if you think about a

176:38

lot of yeah most of the media out there

176:41

is the anecdotes and what you don't see

176:44

in the other thing that's interesting to

176:46

you that's earlier about what you know

176:47

resources and that kind of stuff yeah I

176:51

can only think about a handful of books

176:54

in English honored um almost all of the

176:56

materials in Spanish so if you don't

176:59

know Spanish or you're not willing to

177:00

like dive in there and learn the Spanish

177:04

there's really not much out there in

177:06

terms of the resources other than the

177:08

statues in the visual you know the kind

177:10

of artistic visual stuff but when you do

177:17

actually look at the Spanish material a

177:18

lot of it there's a book called legends

177:21

of Santa Muerte which are anecdotes and

177:25

stories around around people's

177:27

experiences either fictional or real

177:30

regarding their experiences with Santa

177:32

Muerte and a lot of the devotion to

177:36

Santa Muerte magazine is based around

177:39

people's stories so yeah you're right I

177:42

mean that's a huge part of this this

177:44

tradition at any folk tradition is

177:45

telling those stories about what the

177:47

gods of Donder in this instance what you

177:50

know Santa Muerte has done what death

177:51

has done for you in the same way like

177:53

what do we do naturally even if death

177:56

isn't personified in this way as it is

177:58

with Santa Muerte but we tend to get

178:00

together and talk about those who died

178:02

times where we almost died what do we

178:05

think about dying and you can't help but

178:07

think of you know I think it was a

178:09

Cornel West talking about Plato what his

178:11

philosophy is philosophy is about how to

178:13

have a good death right yeah yeah holy

178:18

holy death a good and all that well we

178:22

passed the three-hour mark which I was

178:24

hoping we would and we might do this

178:26

again but David what's going on with you

178:29

right now and the skeleton st. and

178:31

liminal analytics and all this goodness

178:34

right now I'm so

178:36

defying the project with Shannon Taggart

178:38

where we're putting on those talks we

178:42

recently hosted Stanley krepner to talk

178:45

about his dream telepathy stuff the

178:48

experiments they did in the 60s and 70s

178:51

in Brooklyn and we're solidifying that

178:55

into a new project that's gonna focus on

178:58

material evidence of immaterial things

179:01

so how do you know these kind of

179:04

imaginal complexes appear in our world

179:06

through material objects and those and

179:11

then two upcoming webinars one is on psy

179:16

which I'm co-hosting with Craig Wyler

179:18

for Evolver and then another one on

179:22

sacred geometry it's gonna be our second

179:24

sacred geometry webinar that I'm gonna

179:27

be co-hosting with Scott holes so those

179:32

are coming up and the details are not as

179:35

of yet final but those should be

179:38

appearing on the revolver website soon

179:40

how about you and re-injure chestnut and

179:43

Santa Muerte that's ongoing so we try to

179:47

post as often as we can my twitter feed

179:50

is usually filled up with it with links

179:53

and that most holy death on Twitter is

179:57

the feed that we run to cover the Santa

180:00

Muerte stuff and then Andrew Chestnut

180:03

one is Andrews Twitter feed and yeah

180:09

we're basically at this point I mean

180:11

we're just kind of covering it as we can

180:13

through the website and through articles

180:15

on Huffington Post and just trying to

180:20

stay on top of the tradition and get

180:22

people aware of it outside of the kind

180:25

of sensationalist media or you know

180:30

negative media that's surrounding it

180:32

trying to get a more neutral viewpoint

180:34

out there and I got I got a personally

180:36

thank you for that because you know

180:39

Santa Muerte was totally alien to me it

180:41

made no sense I was averted to it

180:45

and then after you know really diving

180:47

into catching up with your work with a

180:49

because I was curious about it and I

180:51

didn't get it catching up with your work

180:54

I can't wait to read Andrews book I

180:57

can't wait to check out the documentary

180:59

and all this kind of stuff because it's

181:01

it's it's got my attention in a way that

181:04

I didn't anticipate and you know I'm

181:07

learning Spanish very slowly right now I

181:11

think it's great yeah it's a great

181:12

opportunity I tried on skeleton snake to

181:14

keep as much Spanish in there as I can

181:16

just to encourage people to kind of

181:18

engage that because we do live in

181:20

America and surprisingly South America

181:24

and Mexico are American countries we

181:30

should we learn Spanish you know well I

181:34

noticed talking because I noticed that

181:37

sort of talking or thinking about Santa

181:40

Muerte in English sort of doesn't feel

181:43

right and usually I'm not one of those

181:45

people who are like no do it in the

181:47

original language do it in the Latin man

181:49

but let's talk about Santa Muerte in

181:53

Spanish yes I think that doesn't really

181:57

cover what she is so yeah it doesn't

181:59

have the same kind of resonance but it's

182:02

I mean that's true though because I mean

182:03

if the roots are different you know it's

182:05

some of the words are the same but

182:07

there's a different kind of intonation

182:08

there's a different feeling to it when

182:11

you learn different languages so you

182:12

learn a different way of thinking while

182:15

I was looking at I couldn't help but

182:17

remember I forgot who said it maybe is

182:19

Oscar Wilde but then there's always that

182:20

quote every quote eventually gets

182:22

attributed to Oscar Wilde which is when

182:26

you have may have been Goethe but when

182:28

you when you know more than one language

182:31

you have more than one soul and that and

182:34

that felt really really true when I was

182:36

speaking Spanish last night exactly when

182:39

Spanish was coming to you through Santa

182:41

Muerte is uh skeletal passage

182:44

yeah man well it's beautiful slugger one

182:48

more thing to with the alchemy stuff

182:49

let's do it david m smith is coming out

182:53

with a book blazing do have stars and i

182:57

think that if people are serious about

182:59

alchemy kabbalah contemplative work

183:04

meditation what have you

183:08

David hem Smith's work is like Santa

183:11

Muerte part of the living tradition and

183:13

very real so you know talking about

183:17

alchemy earlier if people are interested

183:20

his new book blazing to have stars from

183:22

what he's told me

183:23

it is the first time that he's really

183:27

opened up fully as much as as he has

183:31

about his practice so that book I can

183:37

not highly recommend enough

183:39

yeah David's David's illustration is is

183:44

so good that the instant I feel kind of

183:49

bad this in retrospect but I'm always

183:51

wondering like hey that would look great

183:52

on a t-shirt but you know I that was

183:56

like my first message to one Facebook

183:58

was like I put this on a t-shirt he was

184:00

like absolutely not know where it man

184:03

and I think it was the Yahweh one where

184:06

it's just Yahweh over and over and over

184:08

again and it looks like um it's like the

184:10

most beautiful so of course like that

184:14

was you know so many others you know

184:21

that's awesome

184:22

ya know those are those are for t-shirts

184:26

not not for commercial consumption like

184:29

that now but yeah let's see yeah you

184:31

reacted to that because it I mean

184:33

they're they're potent his drawing is

184:35

beautiful aesthetically but you know

184:39

when you actually read what is going on

184:41

in those drawings and the the concepts

184:44

behind it and his practice and what he's

184:46

doing to get to those drawings it's

184:49

accessing a whole new level of

184:51

understanding of this stuff so yeah it's

184:55

potent potent stuff I don't you know

184:58

it's not everybody's bag it is it is

185:00

contemplative it's not you know not

185:03

necessarily practical stuff but you know

185:06

as a as a contemporary contemplative

185:09

practitioner his stuff is kind of

185:16

up you there hello oh hey come on back I

185:25

think I gotcha

185:26

yeah you said his stuff is kind of oh

185:29

this stuff is beyond compare I would say

185:32

with anything else out there you know

185:35

and one last thing is that you brought

185:37

to mind is that the big thing with Santa

185:39

Muerte that I realized is that it is

185:41

both contemplative and practical and

185:44

immediate and visceral and existential

185:47

and just happening yeah I think that's

185:52

yeah that is true that's a good that's a

185:54

good capstone I think it's best half

185:57

yeah

185:58

David thank you thank you so much for

186:01

your contribution not just to this but

186:03

to what you proliferate on the internet

186:05

and in text and whatnot and I'm always

186:07

looking for more of it and I can't wait

186:09

to do this again

186:10

yeah dude well thank you sir and thank

186:13

you for what you do and covering all

186:14

that stuff you've got quite a media

186:16

thing going too so don't short sell that

186:19

that's all good thank you thank you

186:21

thank you and to everyone check out the

186:24

description because I'm gonna try and

186:26

make this thing as definitive as

186:28

possible we're gonna drop a lot of links

186:29

and you may find a little George or the

186:33

Thurgood Arthur well oh yeah yeah yeah

186:37

you may find George Thorogood and a

186:38

little Captain Beefheart down there so

186:40

enjoy it I know it's not traditional

186:43

Santa Muerte music but it's our spin on

186:47

it let's take Cara Lee you too thanks

186:56

[Music]

187:17

[Music]

187:20

you

187:23

[Music]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Number 137.58

 

 

 

 

146.15

 

 

 

 

[Preety_India]

137. 58 and 146.15 till 150.57 

 

185.37 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Preety_India

[Proactive]

 

Quote

I can only be a friend to you from now on. I am not your girlfriend anymore. 

Sorry, doesn't work.

 

 

I scrolled down for 20minutes to post this. hehe

Just a reminder if you aren't already doing this, unconditional self-love is super effective right after a breakup.

[Preety_India]

19 minutes ago, Proactive said:

 

Sorry, doesn't work.

 

 

I scrolled down for 20minutes to post this. hehe

Just a reminder if you aren't already doing this, unconditional self-love is super effective right after a breakup.

I felt that way but the problem is that he wants me as a friend. I might be okay being his friend as long as he doesn't suddenly attack me verbally. 

 

If he is ok being a good friend it would be nice because I enjoy talking to him. But if he moves on with another woman it's gonna hurt me a bit but I can easily be matured about it. 

This is the man I loved unconditionally in every possible and wasn't able to get over him for the longest time. It's just that things don't work between us. I wish it wasn't this way because without all the problems we both would have been great together. Sometimes it feels like I can neither live with him nor live without him. So it's hard to let go. 

 

I did break up with him. But I miss him badly. I guess he does to. So I really don't know how to think about the whole friendship thing. I have no idea how male psychology works when it comes to breaking up and being friends with the girlfriend again. Because I feel like he is going to hold a vendetta against me for breaking up. Although I broke up with him, I am not really over him, I am emotional so I don't think I will ever be over him. 

 

It's sad that relationships can be so hard. 

 

 

 

[Preety_India]

Spiritual lessons

2 more 

 

That I grew out of my judgemental racist thinking about everything. 

Acceptance is a form of love 

To be at  peace with myself. 

 

To do my basic spiritual practices. 

That no matter whatever flaws you have to find peace and growth and love and fulfillment in the world. And love does that 

To be an inspiration to the world by example of love and being peaceful

 

Whatever happens in the world is none of your business. Don't let it bother. It's not your job to take care of it. Let God be the judge. Let destiny be the judge. We cannot decide things. You have to be normal and loving despite bad things happening to you and people doing wrong to you. This might look like weakness and allowing yourself to be victimized but it's really not that. Anger is fruitless. It's just you being butthurt. You take the higher road. You forgive. Sooner or later the other party will be inspired by your goodness and turn to love and stop their wicked actions. Although this thing looks lame. Do not develop a hateful bitter heart because you were wronged. You should have the perpetrator punished but don't allow that to turn into a war inside like a mission for justice for everyone. You don't have to show extra love. Just do not judge on the basis of what happened to you. 

Spirituality is also about growing in love. Like being less judgemental every day and being more kind and loving every day. That is also spiritual growth. 

The other is a form of maturity where you find solace in silence and in love and don't get triggered by judgement. To find love in acceptance and appreciation. 

To live in harmony with environment and natural systems 

know a reality as being a simulation

49:38

that is subject to one's intent and that

49:41

one uses symbolic metaphoric vehicles

49:44

for intent etc etc etc I don't want to

Edited October 13, 2019 by Preety_India

[Preety_India]

 and I could see why they call her

146:15

cabrona because she's like part of the

146:17

people part of the family like you're

146:18

not gonna hide things from her what you

146:20

like she likes that kind of thing you

146:23

know I mean especially if it's gonna be

146:24

you know something like cigarettes right

146:28

yeah exactly very down-to-earth you know

146:30

yeah that's that's the other thing is

146:32

that the discrimination that we see the

146:35

lack of discrimination that we see

146:38

around Santa Muerte Santa Muerte is

146:40

embraced by people who identify as

146:42

Catholics by people who do not identify

146:44

as Catholics by you know transgendered

146:50

persons prostitutes

146:55

you know people people in the sex

146:56

industry people in all kinds of people

146:58

in a you know in places where when you

147:01

approach the church as this person

147:03

you're turned away yeah yeah that was

147:06

the story of our Lee who's the shrine

147:09

holder in Queens right um you know she's

147:13

trans the Catholic I think the priest

147:16

actually told her during confession why

147:18

are you here you don't belong here and

147:21

she had some intense experiences where

147:23

she was fearful of I think a friend had

147:27

recommended that she petitioned and I

147:30

kind of Santa Muerte or take a picture

147:32

of Santa Muerte home with her or

147:34

something but she at first was afraid

147:36

and then

147:37

a kind of profound experience with it

147:39

and now she's the you know the Guardian

147:42

for the shrine in Queens so it's

147:46

definitely trans they have gay lesbian

147:51

bi trans definitely huge maybe not huge

147:58

I don't know it's hard to tell cuz it

147:59

there's real there's really no

148:00

statistics on the number of people who

148:02

follow it you know that's definitely a

148:05

prevalent part of the the cult of

148:08

eastern Mexico you know and probably a

148:11

bottom you know well she doesn't she

148:14

doesn't like push people away you can be

148:16

poor or rich or young or older or

148:19

whatever but the whole idea is that

148:21

death comes mother death will always

148:23

come the holy death will always come for

148:25

you so you don't have to worry what you

148:28

have to worry about is trying to have

148:31

some kind of happy death and what does

148:33

it mean for you to have a happy death

148:35

right now that brings us to I guess you

148:40

know how you can't you can't not look at

148:44

this this neutrality in a miracle work

148:47

that you find with the Santa Muerte

148:49

without kind of bumping into the classic

148:53

latin maxim of tenant NOS or no sei's

148:56

know thyself and through this kind of

148:59

wish magic you get a kind of mirror

149:02

image of your soul because whatever you

149:04

ask of Santa Muerte is gonna directly

149:07

reflect the quality of your

149:09

consciousness where you are as a being

149:11

developed and so on and and your honesty

149:14

which we also see back with the

149:15

marijuana and the cigarettes is that

149:17

this is a kind of honest deity that you

149:19

don't have to play games with you know

149:22

this the the transaction seems pretty

149:25

simple is that if you do something for

149:27

it it'll do something for you and you

149:29

can be whatever you are because she is

149:31

always arriving or always here right but

149:35

the with the with the same like you can

149:37

you will do something for her a lot of

149:39

that is pretty intense in some sense

149:43

where you know people promise sections

149:45

of their skin to it you know so

149:49

a lot of the tattoos that come out of

149:52

the tradition are there for prayer that

149:55

was granted so the person dedicated that

149:57

portion of their flesh to Santa Muerte

150:01

you know so in that sense the give and

150:04

take is you know it can be pretty

150:05

extreme they can you know up here that

150:08

with another you know kind of lost in

150:11

translation thing is the idea of like

150:13

the level of what a gift to Santa Muerte

150:16

can be well you know that's funny that

150:19

it just it just brings it just brought

150:21

something to my mind is that the more

150:23

the more one petitions and does these

150:25

transactions with Santa Muerte and has

150:28

positive results the more holy death you

150:31

will find in the world in the form of

150:33

icons altars images t-shirts statues

150:38

tattoos you will or poems or

150:41

what-have-you or whatever it's gonna be

150:42

is that the more centum where I take

150:45

works the more Santa Muerte will take

150:49

over our world yeah that's a good boy

150:52

that's a good that's a very good point

150:54

yeah yeah and the barometer is rather

150:57

striking because from the statistics I

151:00

[Preety_India]

but one day you will be this - right

137:48

yeah had that you know Gnostic level of

137:51

of really a kind of profound acceptance

137:56

right there I mean and I and the other

137:58

thing that I wanted to mention about

138:00

looking at that documentary footage and

138:02

and some of the newsreel footage I've

138:04

been watching all of this good stuff

138:07

will be linked below by the way is that

138:09

you it's it's so strangely comforting

138:15

it's you know just this idea and the vid

138:19

to see it to see people talk to this

138:22

death icon which is supposed to

138:24

represent death the reality was

138:28

something that I wasn't able to

138:30

anticipate or prepare myself for the

138:34

emotional reaction to it because you

138:36

realize people will talk to all kinds of

138:38

fairies they'll talk to aliens they'll

138:40

talk to

138:41

they'll channel aliens they'll talk to

138:44

spirits they'll talk

138:45

- you know you know they'll talk to the

138:48

most obscure deities out there but very

138:50

very few will talk to death let alone

138:54

and adorned death one that one that is

138:57

actually I mean it's it's gonna sound

139:00

weird to people who haven't spent time

139:03

with this icon but it becomes like

139:06

profoundly beautiful in that in its just

139:10

utter reality that one will be this and

139:12

that one's speaking with it right now

139:14

yeah that I you know you've got like a

139:17

name like La Nina Bonita like the

139:19

beautiful girl you know diamond and

139:21

[Preety_India]

185:37

to mind is that the big thing with Santa

185:39

Muerte that I realized is that it is

185:41

both contemplative and practical and

185:44

immediate and visceral and existential

185:47

and just happening yeah I think that's

185:52

yeah that is true that's a good that's a

185:54

good capstone I think it's best half

[Preety_India]

it lookup wrong yeah look

56:01

cabrona

56:02

the the she-goat or the bitch is what

56:04

you know that's that yeah that's that

56:07

that's an amazing personal level that it

56:09

comes to I mean we like with with the

56:11

cigarette offerings and the the

56:13

marijuana offerings it's you don't just

56:16

like leave it to her you know it's

56:19

expected that you're smoking a cigarette

56:21

as well with her you know I mean it's

56:23

like hanging out with your godmother

56:25

smoking a cigarette and talking about

56:28

whatever you need yeah this amazingly

56:30

personal relationship with this despite

56:33

you know some of the stories that come

56:34

out about you know being afraid and and

56:36

being very respectful in that there's

56:39

also this level I mean the the bitch

56:41

stuff the the cabrona thing that comes

56:42

out of an interview where a lady on the

56:45

street a devotee was being interviewed

56:47

and she was like she's a bitch like us

56:48

you know that's why we like so you know

56:52

there's this incredible just acceptance

56:54

and very you know very homey you know

56:57

just very domestic feeling with it that

57:00

you wouldn't expect with grim reaper

57:04

figure you know or really any kind of

57:07

devotion it's it's an amazing devotional

57:10

tradition in that it is so real it's so

57:14

just you know daily life everyday stuff

57:17

you know and some of the here's I kind

57:20

of I'm gonna track back some the

57:22

confusion over the offerings sure one of

57:25

the one of the things that the people in

57:28

the US have a hard time recognizing

[Preety_India]

God is stronger than everything. 

Let him create a mini gang, a Bonnie and Clyde or a mini cult. God will defeat everything and protect the innocent. 

God can defend a man against a crowd.