Bets on Trump going o serve 2nd term

[Light Lover]

@archi I am from the UK, so as an outward observer I am not able to accurately judge the internal state of your country, however, I do think trump will win a second time, but it will be by a hare. As far as I can see, he still has an extremely loyal following who are die hard for his cause. Just my opinion. I am neither for or against him, too much conflicting information to decide. As long as that creep Joe Biden doesn't get in I am happy.

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

This isn't a conservative frame work.  Warren has made it part of her platform 

I'm saying the way you framed the question is from a conservative framework. Warren is using a more progressive framework - M4A. The issue you raised would be framed differently with a progressive framework. I gave two examples above. 

16 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

Many people do not want their tax money going toward certain things for what ever reason.  Taxes are forced upon people and when they are forced to pay for things they do not like, then most likely there will be uprising's.  The more things people are forced to do, the more uprising's there will be.  IMO, I find the Dems doing more of the forcing and less empowering.

This would be a libertarian perspective - Orange on the SD scale. 

The progressive response to this would be that health care is something that people like. As well, M4A would benefit all individuals as well as collective society. Overall, America would be healthier with M4A. Imagine living in a society in which you and all the people around you are healthier. It is a win for the people. The losers would be the health insurance industry which profits off of people's illness. Since the business model of health insurance is to profit off of illness, the more illness - the more profits. By removing this incentive, public health will increase and preventive health/medicine can thrive.  A business model that profits on people's illnesses and denying as much coverage as possible is a barbaric health care system. Every developed country has public health, except the U.S. Once we go public health, we won't go back. This is one reason the health insurance industry is fighting so hard against M4A. 

Imagine privatized fire departments that profited off of people's homes burning down. Someone may say, I don't want public fire departments - why do I have to pay if my neighbor's house burns down? To me, that is a self-centered perspective that isn't considering profit motives and holistic wellness. 

[Bodigger]

27 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

This isn't a conservative frame work.  Warren has made it part of her platform and yes, this is a turn from her statements in 2012. 

 

16 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I'm saying the way you framed the question is from a conservative framework.

@Serotoninluv Gotcha.....

31 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

Many people do not want their tax money going toward certain things for what ever reason.  Taxes are forced upon people and when they are forced to pay for things they do not like, then most likely there will be uprising's.  The more things people are forced to do, the more uprising's there will be.  IMO, I find the Dems doing more of the forcing and less empowering.

 

21 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

This would be a libertarian perspective - Orange on the SD scale. 

@Serotoninluv I agree.  I was illustrating what many on the other side are thinking.  The problem I Have is that I don't like much of the western style of health care.  I also think we can do a much better job without the government.  Sorry.....I know.....I am getting way off topic.

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

@Serotoninluv The problem I Have is that I don't like much of the western style of health care.  I also think we can do a much better job without the government.  

The problem with smaller government is that it can't compete with corporate. We need a government large enough to out-compete corporate excess. M4A is a great example. The corporate health care industry profits off of people getting sick and denying them coverage. That is a barbaric system. Health care should be nonprofit and we need to expand government to do that. 

As well, a larger government that can outcompete corporate for campaign financing. Imagine if the government gave every American a $500 voucher to donate to their favorite political candidates (any candidates). That would help neutralize corporate influence and corruption in politics. Politicians are dependent on corporations and are owned by corporations. Government can transfer power back to the people. Don't confuse Red/Blue/Orange government with Green government. Green government the welfare of society first - not corporations or their own political power and wealth. 

The U.S. currently has a Red/Blue/Orange level of government - the problems people hate with government stems from Red/Blue/Orange toxicity. If we can evolve up to Green, government will be much healthier. I would choose a corporate-dominated Orange government over a Red/Blue government. Yet I would choose a Green dominated government over a corporate-dominated Orange government. As we head into Yellow, there will be public/corporate hybrids, yet corporate excesses will be kept in check and we there won't be corporate toxicity like we have today. 

[Emerald]

10 hours ago, Bodigger said:

One example is; Warren is saying that imprisoned transgender surgeries should be paid for by taxpayers.  I don't think Bernie is saying this, and I would consider this left of him.  This statement is nowhere near the center.

Huh, Hillary is not an Obama-like figure.  I don't recall people flocking to watch her speeches.  I do agree that the base is moving toward more progressive policies but that only accounts for 43%.  The Dems will be able to pick off about 5% of the centrist's by convincing them that Trump is not good for them, but it will take authentic personality skills like Obama to get over the hump.

I'm quite sure that, like Warren, Bernie would support adding gender reassignment surgeries to his Medicare for All plan. The only things I've heard him say would be part of supplemental plans would be things like cosmetic surgery. But given that gender dysphoria is an actual medical diagnosis, it makes sense that gender reassignment surgery be covered under his plan. Even Obama, who is arguably center right in many respects, sought to lift the ban that was established that blocked gender reassignment surgery from being covered under medicaid plans.

Also, it's 2019 now, and people are more informed about politics. In terms of policy substance, Hilary and Obama are both corporate Neo-liberal centrists that fundamentally would want to keep the status quo. It's not that type of politician that will excite the base, which is looking for progressive change and for someone to address the corruption that was before just accepted as norm.

And nice personality skills aren't going to cut it. People actually want real change. And if they don't get it, many of them will skew toward liars and demagogues like Trump because they're just hoping for change at all costs.

 

[abrakamowse]

 

[Light Lover]

@Emerald Very well said! You explain it much better than I ever could aha.

[Emerald]

57 minutes ago, Light Lover said:

@Emerald Very well said! You explain it much better than I ever could aha.

Thank you

[tenta]

22 hours ago, Light Lover said:

@archi I am from the UK, so as an outward observer I am not able to accurately judge the internal state of your country, however, I do think trump will win a second time, but it will be by a hare. As far as I can see, he still has an extremely loyal following who are die hard for his cause. Just my opinion. I am neither for or against him, too much conflicting information to decide. As long as that creep Joe Biden doesn't get in I am happy.

 

Trump will likely win if we look at the polls and at how many democrats are anti-socialist, so while they might not vote republican and for Trump, they won't be voting for Bernie, while Trump will get supporters who just vote republican no matter who it is and don't see many flaws with his presidency

Edited October 12, 2019 by tenta

[Forestluv]

21 hours ago, tenta said:

 

Trump will likely win if we look at the polls and at how many democrats are anti-socialist

There are very few democrats that are anti-socialist economically. The vast majority of democrats want economic democratic socialism. As well, about 40% of republicans are economic socialists. This is why republicans are working so hard to frame modern democratic socialism as scary old school Stalin socialism. To confuse voters into thinking green democratic socialism is blue socialism/communism. It has worked well in the past, yet is losing effectiveness as the country evolves up toward green.

See figure 2

https://www.voterstudygroup.org/publication/political-divisions-in-2016-and-beyond

 

[abrakamowse]

Take a look at the guest in the Trump Tower, is incredible that this guy could run for president. Just by renting the tower to those kind of people tell us a lot about him...

 

 

[abrakamowse]

The transcript of the conversation with the Ukrainian president:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uyWKAGgHIqDEORgjOyo0uq7JOXzhxOQf/view 

[CreamCat]

On 10/11/2019 at 10:15 PM, Leo Gura said:

All that's necessary is to shine sunlight on devilry and it will start to dissolve. Trump's whole presidency is that process unfolding.

Are you talking about me?

[abrakamowse]

On 10/9/2019 at 4:44 PM, archi said:

I currently see Trump as a president for 2nd term.

Anyone, too?

I hope not, for the well being of America.

 

 

[CreamCat]

On 10/12/2019 at 5:51 AM, Bodigger said:

Taxes are forced upon people and when they are forced to pay for things they do not like, then most likely there will be uprising's.

If you are forced only to pay tax, you are lucky. There are also jury duty and military conscription around the world. On top of that, we also have torturous mandatory public schooling.