Free-rider problem

[Porphyry Fedotov]

What is a solution to the free-rider problem in a Green stage society? Libertarians love to use it as an argument.  Is it that much of a problem after all? May it be that they just blew it out of proportions? For those who don't know. From wiki: 'Free riders are a problem because while not paying for the good, they may continue to access it. Thus, the good may be under-produced, overused or degraded'.

[CreamCat]

• Without experimental data, that's just an imaginary argument.
• You can build systems to limit the scope and extent of free-riding.
• It can be good to have free riders if we can afford them.
  If we can identify free-riders, we can, for example, build systems to raise their consciousness.
• It can be socially better for uninspired free-riders to just idle for a while and strategize than to be forced to work at uninspiring bullshit jobs that exist solely to keep them busy and do not contribute to society otherwise.

Edited October 9, 2019 by CreamCat

[Mason Riggle]

The 'free-rider' problem may be an unavoidable trade off that comes with having any type of organized society.  Every man for himself seems to be a losing strategy when compared with teamwork.   A team where several members are not contributing, yet still accessing the benefits of working as a team, is generally preferable to a team of 1.   Obviously, a team where everyone contributes is ideal, but unrealistic, as not every member of a society will be capable of contributing at the same level.  

"Any society, any nation, is judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members -- the last, the least, the littlest." 

[Forestluv]

The counter weight to free rider is that when people have their basic needs met they tend to want to grow and develop themselves as per Maslow’s hierarchy. They want to get education, do personal development, set goals, start projects etc. Of course not all people, yet many people. So the productivity decrease due to free rider is offset by the productivity increase due to greater opportunity, empowerment, accessibility, higher potential.  

[Porphyry Fedotov]

Thanks for sharing your opinions, guys. Much appreciated.

@CreamCat

5 hours ago, CreamCat said:

• You can build systems to limit the scope and extent of free-riding.
• It can be good to have free riders if we can afford them.
  If we can identify free-riders, we can, for example, build systems to raise their consciousness.
• It can be socially better for uninspired free-riders to just idle for a while and strategize than to be forced to work at uninspiring bullshit jobs that exist solely to keep them busy and do not contribute to society otherwise.

Very interesting solutions.

@Mason Riggle

4 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

"Any society, any nation, is judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members -- the last, the least, the littlest." 

 

Wow, that's a very cool quote.  

@Serotoninluv

4 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

The counter weight to free rider is that when people have their basic needs met they tend to want to grow and develop themselves as per Maslow’s hierarchy. They want to get education, do personal development, set goals, start projects etc. Of course not all people, yet many people.

Yeah, I've completely forgotten about all these universal basic income studies that prove your point.

[Leo Gura]

The solution to the free-rider problem is to adopt an abundance mindset.

If you are confident in your skills and the value you add to society you don't need to worry about a few poor people enjoying some crumbs that fall off your table.

The free-rider argument is advanced by people with a scarcity mindset who fear that there won't be enough to go around. The truth is that there are enough resources on this planet for every human to be comfortable. If only those resources were shared fairly and not hoarded.

The free-rider problem is also seriously overblown. It's not like the government will supply you with a comfortable living while you sit around and play video games your whole life. People on food stamps and welfare programs are not automatically bums. Many of them are hardworking people.

The true free-rider problem is the free-riding that corporations do when they lobby and corrupt government to get tax-breaks, cushy government contracts, wars, subsidies, and less regulation.

[Curious]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The true free-rider problem is the free-riding that corporations do when they lobby and corrupt government to get tax-breaks, cushy government contracts, wars, subsidies, and less regulation.

I actually thought that this was what the free-rider problem was pointing to

So, how can this one be solved ?
If one of the three poles (China, USA, EU) go for unregulated hyper-capitalism, then all ill-intended billionaires will just transfer their money there.

It's like the prisoner's dilemma ! Because each pole is afraid to lose wealth from the ultra-rich to one of the other pole, they just bend over backwards to accommodate them...

And even within the EU, we have Luxembourg, Switzerland, Monaco, even Ireland... ! All these tax havens. And now, soon, even the UK ! Can you believe this ? If the UK gets out they can just slash all taxes to attract all HQ of corporations, and that will seriously mess with our Welfare system.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Curious

[MuddyBoots]

I saw a TV programme about a basic income pilot scheme in Finland a few years ago. They followed some participants, who all tried working in some way, while the experiment lasted. There's a lot more listed in Wikipedia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_around_the_world 

including, interestingly, Iran. Leo's point is valid too, freeloaders and scroungers aren't only an issue for welfare programmes, there's a few everywhere.  Employees can 'swing the lead', take sickies etc. Rich people and corporations can exploit their employees and the tax system. Corrupt governments can fleece their population. The left argues that international trade is skewed against poor countries to get cheap labour, effectively freeloading off them. 

Libertarians themselves and free-market capitalism allows free-riding by some of the powerful over the powerless. Maybe socialism has free-riding by some of the powerless. I guess there's an inbuilt survival drive in the ego to get something for nothing, a free lunch. That's why we fall for con artists, pyramid- and get-rich-quick schemes, why betting is so addictive. As well as freeloaders, there's other people exploiting the freeloading impulse! But whatever our political system, we can do much to mitigate the problem, if we have the will. How many freeloaders are there really? It's also a problem if a small manageable issue is blown out of proportion for persuading us to change our political minds.

Edited October 12, 2019 by MuddyBoots
Clarification.

[Leo Gura]

It's important to keep in mind that all systems have parasites and exploiters. This is not a condemnation of government per se. It's a fundamental aspect of nature. Parasites have existed for a billion years and will continue to exist for a billion more. This is not a valid excuse to not create better and bigger systems. In fact, this is why better and bigger systems evolve. The better government gets the less parasites will be able to abuse it.

Bigger government is important precisely because its size helps to protect it from large corporate parasites. Government must be larger than the corporations it governs, otherwise things get squirrely.

[TheAvatarState]

On 10/9/2019 at 7:30 AM, Serotoninluv said:

The counter weight to free rider is that when people have their basic needs met they tend to want to grow and develop themselves as per Maslow’s hierarchy. They want to get education, do personal development, set goals, start projects etc. Of course not all people, yet many people. So the productivity decrease due to free rider is offset by the productivity increase due to greater opportunity, empowerment, accessibility, higher potential.  

This. A UBI would free us to do the work we want to do, and even reward the tough work already being done like caregiving and parenting. And economies function better when people have money to spend. 

Notice where the free rider argument comes from. It fundamentally misreads what drives people. It comes from a distrust of people, a division between you and "free riders" because YOU certainly wouldn't misspend it . It comes from a scarcity mindset. 

I would propose that there would be fewer freeloaders than we have now if a basic income was instituted. This is because our welfare and disability programs have created millions of people unable to get a job or volunteer even if they wanted to, for fear of losing their benefits.