Putin's view on liberalism

[jd1279]

Interesting words from Putin in an interview a few months ago. He states that liberalism is 'obsolete' and has outlived its purpose and that nationalism and conservatism are the way forward. He thinks that history and evolution is on his side but the world is only going to get more liberal and multicultural not more traditional and nationalistic. Global society is not evolving from SD stage Orange/Green to stage Blue mr smarty pants. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-48795764

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/2880c762-98c2-11e9-8cfb-30c211dcd229

[Hansu]

51 minutes ago, jd1279 said:

Global society is not evolving from SD stage Orange/Green to stage Blue mr smarty pants. 

I doubt Putin has studied spiral dynamics.

And green can be very authoritarian too, just look at groups that play identity politics like LQBT and the American feminist movement. They love liberty until someone uses it against their ideology.

 

[Apparition of Jack]

@Hansu Green "authoritarianism" is worlds away from Orange or Blue authoritarianism. Having your name dragged through the mud because you once made an insensitive tweet on twitter by over-zealous progressives can be unpleasant, but it in no way compares to having your kneecaps broken and your entire family killed by a nationalist autocrat because you spoke out against him. 

[Hansu]

@Apparition of Jack

I had no idea authoritarianism is a sport where one group is trying to outdo the other

Just because exclusion has become inclusion does not make authoritarianistic behavior less authoritarian.

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Hansu said:

Just because exclusion has become inclusion does not make authoritarianistic behavior less authoritarian.

Those authoritarian hippies are so ruthless. . . 

[Hansu]

33 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Those authoritarian hippies are so ruthless. . . 

Ah, I guess I was vague. Hippies are far from authoritarian. I meant that the exclusion tactic used by nationalistic people in the past had morphed to the inclusion tactic used by groups like SJW today which is perceived as okay by the public

For example its not okay to exclude someone based on their race, but its okay to include someone based on their race.

And as long as there is inequality in the society, this kind of racism and authoritarian politics should be followed. Just because a policy is green doesent make it less racist or authoritarian.

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Hansu

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Hansu said:

For example its not okay to exclude someone based on their race, but its okay to include someone based on their race.

And as long as there is inequality in the society, this kind of racism and authoritarian politics should be followed. Just because a policy is green doesent make it less racist or authoritarian.

 

Discrimination based on race = racism

No discrimination based on race = no racism. 

That is a literal definition of racism.

It’s quit a stretch to say that trying to prevent racism is authoritarian. That is like saying police officers that try to prevent murder are authoritarian. 

Green isn’t as bad as blue/orange fears. Green is actually quite lovely. ♥️ 

[Hansu]

@Serotoninluv

Well, we have different understanding of the word racism then. To me, racism is discrimination based on race.

But police stopping a murderor? Thats like the most authoritarian position you can be in western country! You are locking someone up potentially for years because they might have done something they didnt do! In america you may even have the right to end the attemptee's life! Yeah thats very libertarian

Im not trying to bash green. Im trying to move there myself, but I find it disgusting how stage green people bastardize words to give them a thousand meanings to support their authoritarian politics.

For example: If you cosplay black character and you are white descend yourself, then painting your face black is racist blackfacing and not painting it black is racist white washing. First of all, thats narcissistic double bind tactic and second of all, thats racial discrimination. And when you ban the person doing it from cons or form a mob to harrass the said person, then it turns to authoritarianism. And its disgusting

 

Sorry OP, didnt mean to take over this thread but I got winded up

[Porphyry Fedotov]

@Hansu If you want to understand racism from the green perspective try reading "White fragility" by Robin DiAngelo. It's a very good book on this topic.

[Forestluv]

36 minutes ago, Hansu said:

@Serotoninluv

But police stopping a murderor? Thats like the most authoritarian position you can be in western country! You are locking someone up potentially for years because they might have done something they didnt do!

Nobody is getting arrested. I didn't make my point clearly. . . Another example: security checkpoints in airports aim to reduce the risk of murder on airplanes. People going through airport security are not getting arrested. They are getting screened to make sure they don't have bombs in their bags. I would not consider airport security screening to be authoritarian.

36 minutes ago, Hansu said:

For example: If you cosplay black character and you are white descend yourself, then painting your face black is racist blackfacing and not painting it black is racist white washing. First of all, thats narcissistic double bind tactic and second of all, thats racial discrimination. And when you ban the person doing it from cons or form a mob to harrass the said person, then it turns to authoritarianism. And its disgusting

You are seeing this from the perspective of a white person that has never suffered discrimination and abuse for being black. You don't seem to be aware of the deep significance and impact of blackface in history. Blackface is emblematic of some of the worst discrimination, abuse, oppression and suffering in human history. You are totally missing the impact of blackface at human and societal levels. It has caused and still causes extreme harm at both individual and societal levels. Part of not realizing this may be due to ignorance or selective dismissal. Yet a big part is a lack of empathy. You have no clue what the direct experience of being black is like. If you were a black person you would have a different perspective. Even as a white person, one can develop empathy. I'm a white male and was in a relationship with a dark-skinned black woman. As well, I live in a poor town that is predominately black. Although I'm not black myself, I see the impact of racial discrimination everyday in my community. And I directly experienced some intense racism while I was in an inter-racial relationship with a woman I loved. These included deeply painful experience and a couple that were very scary. And I just experienced the tip of the iceberg. Blackface is harmful to both individuals and societies. That is why Green takes it so seriously. Not because they want to be politically correct jackasses. Rather because Green "gets it". They understand and know at a deeper level the harm of something like blackface. 

One way to transition to a higher state of consciousness is to become aware of intention vs. impact. Orange is so hyper focused on themselves that they only look at their own intention and are oblivious to the greater impact. One may say "What's wrong with blackface? I don't intend to be racist. I'm not trying to harm anyone". This is hyper focused on intention with unawareness of impact. Understanding impact and developing empathy requires stepping outside of one's own self-centered contraction. It involves seeing other's perspectives, not just at an intellectual level - beyond that. This is one of the keys of development into Green. Some of the activities i found helpful: I lived in poor communities in Honduras and Guatemala. I volunteered helping psychiatric patients in a mental institution. I've been in inter-racial relationships. I lived with a tribe in the mountains of Peru. I volunteered with female victims of domestic violence.  I've been a mentor for many recovering alcoholics and drug addicts. I've visited prisons and spent time with inmates. I didn't do all of this because I'm some kind of saint. There was some motivation to help others, yet the stronger motivation was that terminal orange is so fucking painful. I couldn't stand being miserable anymore and I was willing to surrender my self-centeredness to expand and grow. These activities were extremely uncomfortable at times, yet the expansion, depth and meaning is beyond description. You have no idea of what Green is about. Stop watching YT videos of SJWs that trigger you. That aint Green. Put yourself out there and immerse yourself if you want to discover the true essence of Green. It absolutely blows away Orange. It's like the difference between drinking polluted water and natural spring water. You have no idea what you are missing. . . 

[Hansu]

@Serotoninluv

I never defended blackface and it wasnt the point of my argument but I get your point. Its true that I dont know the history behind blackface and Im opposing blackface merely because someone said its racist, not by expriencing its impact on black people.

I must admit I might have mixed aggressive people in green politic movements to be stage green people, and thats probably because of too much Youtube and lack of understanding spiral dynamics.

[Forestluv]

@Hansu

2 hours ago, Hansu said:

If you cosplay black character and you are white descent yourself, then painting your face black is racist blackfacing and not painting it black is racist white washing. First of all, thats narcissistic double bind tactic and second of all, thats racial discrimination. And when you ban the person doing it from cons or form a mob to harrass the said person, then it turns to authoritarianism. And its disgusting

46 minutes ago, Hansu said:

I never defended blackface

False equivalencies of racism IS defending racism. . . A false equivalency of Blackface racism is a form of defending Blackface. These false equivalencies and "both-sides-ism" is a form of racism and allows racism to continue unchallenged.

Black face is extremely racist and harmful at both individual and societal levels. Both direct individual racism and indirect systemic racism. Blackface is disgusting, not the people that get upset with blackface. You are not seeing this from the other perspective and don't have empathy for black people that undergo historical and contemporary racial discrimination and racial abuse. People that understand and are empathetic to that historical and contemporary racial abuse are coming from a place of caring and love for our fellow citizens. That is Green.

White people are not oppressed because they don't get to wear blackface. White people are not victims because they get shamed for wearing blackface. This is not "reverse racism". It is a hyper white privileged blue/orange perspective of a dominant culture group that lacks understanding and empathy of the direct experience of others. If you had the direct experience of a black man, you would likely have a very different perspective than you do now. 

Imagine your daughter was killed in a train accident and you and your family suffered terribly. Now imagine people coming up to you, tangling toy trains in front of your face and saying "choo choo, your baby girl is gone forever" at you. Wouldn't that be disgusting? I would say yes. What about people that came to your defense and told those idiots to knock it off? I would consider them as having loving intentions. Now what if the "choo choo" people said they were the ones being discriminated against and they were the real victims of reverse-discrimination? To me, that is twisted and absurd. Yet to someone who doesn't understand, who has never lost a love one and lacks empathy - the "choo choo" people might seem ok. 

[Hansu]

10 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

You are not seeing this from the other perspective and don't have empathy for black people that undergo historical and contemporary racial discrimination and racial abuse.

 

10 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

This is not "reverse racism". It is a hyper white privileged blue/orange perspective of a dominant culture group that lacks understanding and empathy of the direct experience of others.

Well, I spent 2.5 hours past my bedtime to contemplate on this and I think I have at least a little bit more understanding of this subject

10 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Now what if the "choo choo" people said they were the ones being discriminated against and they were the real victims of reverse-discrimination?

I never saw discrimination in words or gestures because I projected myself on a black person and thought "If someone called me drunk subhuman mongoloid, I would laugh" but just because I personally live in that world does not speak for a black person.

I had problems understanding blackface (And I still dont understand blackface because I have not experienced its affect) because I lived in this world:

 

Then I realized that I take pride on living with the attitude seen on the video by the woman. I thought everyone should live by that attitude because I thought I was better for it. To me skin color has been for approximately 5 years merely a skin color, I never thought more deeply about it because I projected my own beliefs on it.

So my belief in absolute equality made it easy for me to not feel empathic towards others. I didnt need empathy because you see! "I believe in absolute equality, and Im better for it! And if someone else dont believe that then I dont have to care! They are childish and need to grow up! Words don't hurt grown ups!"

If I have understood correctly, then an orange person fights against racism for the sake of fighting against racism. An orange person opposes blackface because the news outlets are saying that it is racist, potentially because an orange person is afraid that being perceived as racist is bad for his relationships and career.

And then, correct if Im wrong, a green person fights against racism because they know how racism affects a minority groups life. A green person dont oppose racism because their mothers taught them its wrong, the green person opposes racism because it is what is right, because a green person has the ability of look at something like blackface and feel how it would affect black person or black community, which is an ability that I lack due to my lack of experience

I think I have a lot to learn about these groups that I vilified in my first message

 

[Forestluv]

On 10/10/2019 at 1:46 AM, Hansu said:

I never saw discrimination in words or gestures because I projected myself on a black person and thought "If someone called me drunk subhuman mongoloid, I would laugh" but just because I personally live in that world does not speak for a black person.

It's much deeper than simple namecalling. 

On 10/10/2019 at 1:46 AM, Hansu said:

So my belief in absolute equality made it easy for me to not feel empathic towards others. I didnt need empathy because you see! "I believe in absolute equality, and Im better for it! And if someone else dont believe that then I dont have to care! They are childish and need to grow up! Words don't hurt grown ups!"

It's a nuanced thing. If a person believed in equality, they would not get upset by others that are fighting for equality. If a person believed in equality they would be supporting efforts toward equality. That Star Trek clip is an utopian fantasy. In the 1960s, Star Trek was very progressive on racism - and not just the clip you showed. Addressing racism was a theme in the series. Star Trek was the first TV show with an inter-racial kiss. This was radical in the 1960s and there was a huge backlash. The actors and producers risked the show and their careers to address racism - it was highly progressive at the time. Yet in 2019 it is now a centrist position, leaning conservative. It is a view some white people would like to view things. "Let's just view everyone as equal". This mindset is a big jump up from overt racism. Yet the problem with this mindset is neglecting the impact of centuries of racial abuse as well as current racism at both individual and systemic levels. The mindset that color is doesn't matter doesn't address societal issues in which color does matter. It allows white people to avoid their responsibility in acknowledging the impact of racism and their responsibility in promoting a more just society. It allows the status quo of racism to continue. 

On 10/10/2019 at 1:46 AM, Hansu said:

And then, correct if Im wrong, a green person fights against racism because they know how racism affects a minority groups life. A green person dont oppose racism because their mothers taught them its wrong, the green person opposes racism because it is what is right, because a green person has the ability of look at something like blackface and feel how it would affect black person or black community, which is an ability that I lack due to my lack of experience

A healthy orange perspective would likely look at statistics and support action toward equality. For example, in the U.S. black women have a much higher frequency of pregnancy complications and morbidity than white women. Scientific studies have normalized for every conceivable environmental factor such as low income, single mother, lack of education, obesity, alcohol and drug use, smoking etc. When all of this is normalized there is still a huge gap between black and white women. As well, no genetic differences can explain the discrepancy. Furthermore, studies have shown black people have higher levels of chronic cortisol (a stress hormone) and chronic cortisol levels are positively correlated with cortisol levels - which has an adverse impact on health. Taken together, the data support a model in which an environmental input of racism has negative impacts on health. . . Another type of orange thing: About 30 years ago DNA fingerprinting emerged in court cases. DNA fingerprinting was used to revisit previous cases to see if prison inmates were wrongly convicted. And guess which race was wrongly convicted the most? . . . Black men were wrongly convicted in crimes against white women. . . There are many scientific studies showing racism within the justice system. Orange will see this data and think - this isn't right. Orange is oriented as primarily self-centered, yet has the capacity for fairness. They might have an attitude like "The studies show effects of racism, something should be done about it". The key word being *should*. Orange is still too self-centered. If racism doesn't affect them personally, they won't be that concerned. They will be more concerned about themselves. They may think "OK, studies show some racism, but what about white people like me? I haven't had it easy either". Orange has a low capacity to understand another perspective/experience and does not see things at a collective level. Another common orange idea is: "I'm not racist. I don't see why this is such a big deal. Why can't people be more like me". This view does not take into account societal and systemic racism. As well, it will allow the person to avoid looking at their own subconscious biases. 

Green is capable of understanding the data and logic - green also has the capacity to understand another's relative experience. Green "get's it". Green "knows what it's like".  Yet this doesn't mean that green will always be appropriate and effective in promoting equality. You give a good example with aggressive mob mentality. Imagine if you stated the view that blackface is racist, yet not being allowed to blackface is also racist. And the backlash to blackface is racist. . . Now imagine if unhealthy greens on the forum antagonized and shamed you. Then they spread your comments on Facebook and Twitter. Then the greens at your job try to get you fired because they don't want to work with a closet racist. This would be unhealthy excessive green. In many situations it is healthier to have a safe space in which one can explore issues without fear of being stigmatized and ostracized. In other situations, a more assertive approach is better. For example, if a political group was intentionally trying to prevent black people from voting.

[Hansu]

14 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

A healthy orange perspective would likely look at statistics and support action toward equality. For example, in the U.S. black women have a much higher frequency of pregnancy complications and morbidity than white women.

A lot of people where I come from look at crime statistics of refugees who have come to Europe during and after the 2015 refugee crisis. They use this statistic to support their -statistically truthful but lacking in understanding- claims against taking in refugees. Is this unhealthy orange or just plain blue?
(On sidenote: I feel like there is so much crappy research and statistics that none can be trusted without first learning the subject)

14 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Orange is still too self-centered. If racism doesn't affect them personally, they won't be that concerned. They will be more concerned about themselves. They may think "OK, studies show some racism, but white about white people like me? I haven't had it easy either".

I have used this excuse a lot to do mental masturbation on comparing myself to oppressed people. I think it has been some kind of defense against thinking outside myself. Like whenever I heard how "white people has to be punished for the centuries of oppression of people of color" and even though I nowdays look at my ancestors without victimhood but only pride, knowing that the people survived the oppression and hardship and the culture, especially the language survived the censorship, but I used to throw myself in as a victim. That gives me a connection with the Irish, the past and the alcoholism 

But I've come to realize that this is past and nothing to be fussed about. To me its something that happened in the past that is thankfully not happening to my people in the modern world. This is why I feel like its silly to fuss about things like the British empire's conquest of the world. I mean yes, they should return the artifacts they stole to their rightful owners but cutting the modern englishmans head or shaming them for what their ancestors did isn't going to make the oppression of British Empire go away. I feel like its not productive to cling to something that happened centuries ago by our ignorant ancestors if it does not affect our modern society, shouldn't we learn to forgive and work on the modern day problems?

15 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

There are many scientific studies showing racism within the justice system. Orange will see this data and think - this isn't right. Orange is oriented as primarily self-centered, yet has the capacity for fairness. They might have an attitude like "The studies show effects of racism, something should be done about it". The key word being *should*. Orange is still too self-centered.

Orange has a low capacity to understand another perspective/experience and does not see things at a collective level.

Another common orange idea is: "I'm not racist. I don't see why this is such a big deal. Why can't people be more like me". This view does not take into account societal and systemic racism. As well, it will allow the person to avoid looking at their own subconscious biases. 

I can 100% say that this is me. At times I have mindfully tried to look at things from the perspective of another group, but I've found myself to give up on that pretty quickly. Instead I've gone back to projecting my own beliefs onto the groups whom's perspective I attempted to gain, with the "shoulds" in mind. How does one best build the ability to look at things from others perspective? Direct experience within the group? I feel like more I know an individual, the better perspective I get, but I really lack the ability to do the same on a group of people

15 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

In many situations it is healthier to have a safe space in which one can explore issues without fear of being stigmatized and ostracized

This is what I love about actualized.org. When I came to this forum with right leaning ideas, knowing that the forum is most likely very left-leaning and progressive made me afraid of speaking about things how I felt about them because I felt like if I did, Leo or the mods would just come to my thread, ban me for 48 hours and call me a close minded ignorant idiot who needs to read a certain book and then I'd be known as the right-wing idiot among the members who is not to be taken seriously. This haven't happened though, and I've learned to be more open here which has led to an immense amount of growth when I compare myself to my past, when I just started writing here.

You mods do amazing work here, thank you for that!