An Advanced Perspective on The Impermanence Episode

[ardacigin]

I've watched Leo's episode on 'Impermanence' today. Leo described it quite well but some of the more advanced perspectives on impermanence can be lost.

Impermanence is NOT 'just' arising and passing away. That is the western bastardization of what impermanence is. This is a partial truth. That is coming closer to impermanence.

Impermanence as a highly developed spiritual insight is the realization that 'there is only process'. There is no arising and passing away. That is a mind made construction. All fluctuations of consciousness are a mental construction.  Impermanence as a developed insight is highly interlinked with emptiness.

So the perception that there are sensations which you observe to arise and pass away is a semi-matured insight. The self there is not experienced as impermanent. There are still sensations and a sense of perception.

 You want to come to a point where, for instance, the emotion of sadness can be experienced not just as 'arising and passing away' but also as a 'process of mental construction' where there is no fluctuation of sadness. You experience this with a 'cessation event' where the mind no longer projects mentally constructed objects (emotions, thoughts, external information of senses) into sensory experience.  That 'impermanent process' is seen as a mental construction.

Feeling sad and depressed because you experience arising and passing away of formations is not quite where you want to end up. That 'melancholy' and 'aware' as Leo talked about is just another mental reaction due to craving and clinging. 

You actually want to experience the mental reaction of sadness and depression as a constructed process as well. And then you want to understand the following thing:

The arising occurs the instant of passing. The passing occurs the instance of arising. This is not occurring in time and space. You can not experience impermanence on this level and depth if you are still observing sensations to,

1- arise

2 - have a period of existence

3 - pass away.

This is the training instructions but not the impermanence itself as a developed insight. You want to get to that timeless state of consciousness where arising and passing away is seen as a mental formation, process and devoid of having any self-existing nature in space and time.

That is true impermanence as a spiritual insight and your ability to get in contact with this in daily life shows your level of embodiment. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by ardacigin

[Meditationdude]

@ardacigin he (and you)  never mentioned that all of this done through insight meditation. Years of it. This isn’t something you “realize” without a serious practice (Or psychedelics). 
You must experience the arising and passing away many many times before it has any real impact on off the cushion life. All of these insights must be cultivated and worked through. 
 

I love how he makes its seem so easy and doesn’t mention anything about meditation. ??‍♂️

Edited October 1, 2019 by Meditationdude
Hi

[Forestluv]

6 hours ago, ardacigin said:

Impermanence as a highly developed spiritual insight is the realization that 'there is only process'. There is no arising and passing away. That is a mind made construction. All fluctuations of consciousness are a mental construction.  Impermanence as a developed insight is highly interlinked with emptiness.

So the perception that there are sensations which you observe to arise and pass away is a semi-matured insight. The self there is not experienced as impermanent. There are still sensations and a sense of perception.

 You want to come to a point where, for instance, the emotion of sadness can be experienced not just as 'arising and passing away' but also as a 'process of mental construction' where there is no fluctuation of sadness. You experience this with a 'cessation event' where the mind no longer projects mentally constructed objects (emotions, thoughts, external information of senses) into sensory experience.  That 'impermanent process' is seen as a mental construction.

I like your point about how arising and passing away is a mental construct. You also say that there is a realization that "there is only process". You seem to be pointing to the process of mentally constructing arising and falling. This is a deep realization and it goes deeper. The realization and awareness of the process is also a mental construction. "Process" requires a timeline. Without that timeline, there is no process. There is no change. There is no permanence or impermanence. There is no experience. Nothing is happening. All of these require a timeline (albeit a very short timeline).

6 hours ago, ardacigin said:

The arising occurs the instant of passing. The passing occurs the instance of arising. This is not occurring in time and space.

Without time, there is no occurrence. There is no instant. These require a timeline. 

6 hours ago, ardacigin said:

You want to get to that timeless state of consciousness where arising and passing away is seen as a mental formation, process and devoid of having any self-existing nature in space and time.

 In that timelessness, there is no arising and passing away to see. There are no mental constructs occurring. There are no mental formations. There is nothing happening to be seen as a mental formation. There is no process. 

I think you are pointing to a deep realization, yet it seems like you still think there are occurrences, such as mental constructions occurring. You seem to be suggesting that there is a timeless state of consciousness aware of time-dependent occurrences. This is one frame, yet this dissolves as well. There is a frame in which there is no timeline - so no occurrences.  

What you are pointing to reminds me of the movements through Now that @Faceless spoke of.

[ardacigin]

2 hours ago, Meditationdude said:

@ardacigin he (and you)  never mentioned that all of this done through insight meditation. Years of it. This isn’t something you “realize” without a serious practice (Or psychedelics). 
You must experience the arising and passing away many many times before it has any real impact on off the cushion life. All of these insights must be cultivated and worked through. 
 

I love how he makes its seem so easy and doesn’t mention anything about meditation. ??‍♂️

This is most likely experienced through meditation and psychedelics but Leo already suggests doing all of these practices. I also suggest meditation and psychedelics. I have many forum posts here explaining techniques to do it.

But it is true that Leo might give the impression that this is easy to experience for most people. He actually recommends psychedelics so that the insight process is faster and easier. 

Now, to experience these in meditation consistently is another matter. It requires disciplined formal practice which Leo no longer seems to subscribe to. 

I understand Leo but I still recommend him to practice formal sessions and embody the present moment more systematically. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by ardacigin

[Leo Gura]

Hehe, when I tell people it will take 10,000 hours, I am criticized for making it sound too hard. When I don't, I am criticized for making it sound too easy.

[Meditationdude]

@Leo Gura to get to the stage where you’re experiencing arising and passing away and having insights into impermanence doesn’t take 10,000 hours. I was there in my first year of daily meditation practice. 

You’ve said multiple times in past videos it takes 10,000+ hours to master meditation but it never stopped me and look how much actualized.org has grown. We know it’s hard, you’re not losing people by being upfront. If anything you’re weeding out people who aren’t serious about the work. 
 

 

[Nahm]

@Leo Gura Ha! So true. 

[Raptorsin7]

@Leo Gura Keeping fighting the good fight Leo. In many ways its a thankless job, you will get criticized no matter how you present the information. But your vids and this forum are invaluable (:

Edited October 1, 2019 by Raptorsin7

[Meditationdude]

@Raptorsin7 I agree, invaluable. But that doesn’t mean we can’t discuss things. That’s what forums are, an open discussion about a topic. It doesn’t always have to be criticism or arguments. 

[Consilience]

There is no arising, there is no passing away, there is only “isness,” or “Being.” Im on board.

What are phenomena then? What are THEY? To say they are nothing seems... dualistic. To say they are something does too though. 

[Raptorsin7]

@Meditationdude I wasn't talking about this forum. I was referencing mainly outsiders who look at the forum and view leo as a cult figure or some manipulator. I've read some reddit posts of people going pretty hard at leo, and although most of us here know the criticism is coming from a place of ignorance, i don't know how well i'd react to such constant negative attention drawn my way. But your point is well taken

[Raptorsin7]

@Meditationdude oooo i just read your initial comment. I didn't actually read your comment before i commented on leo, mine was  more of a general motivation post for leo to keep doing what he's doing and ignore the haters. I actually agree with your comment haha (:

[Leo Gura]

@ardacigin You make some good points in your opening post.

The video is an introduction for normal folk. Think of it as an on-ramp to more hardcore practice which may come later.

We're building on-ramps here. The hardcore stuff comes later.

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Consilience said:

There is no arising, there is no passing away, there is only “isness,” or “Being.” Im on board.

What are phenomena then? What are THEY? To say they are nothing seems... dualistic. To say they are something does too though. 

Some nice probing ?? 

[ardacigin]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@ardacigin You make some good points in your opening post.

The video is an introduction for normal folk. Think of it as an on-ramp to more hardcore practice which may come later.

We're building on-ramps here. The hardcore stuff comes later.

Great! I wanted to write this because this video wasn't entitled 'Part 1' so I didn't think there would be a follow up anytime soon. I'm looking forward to it.

[ardacigin]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hehe, when I tell people it will take 10,000 hours, I am criticized for making it sound too hard. When I don't, I am criticized for making it sound too easy.

 Well, I meant that since you don't do formal sessions nowadays, I recommend doing it for you. You do tell people to meditate hardcore. I wasn't criticizing that. In fact, I wasn't criticizing at all. Just giving some friendly advice. I kind of understand why you are not really interested in formal disciplined sessions. But they still have a lot of benefit in my opinion.

This might also create cognitive dissonance where you tell people the importance of deliberate formal practice but don't really do it yourself daily. Just to remind everybody, 60-70 year old Zen Masters still have a daily formal practice even if they don't quite need the formal sits to experience deep states of meditation because of their skills.

And this is not due to some mindless habit. It is because this path (both the insight recognition and embodiment) goes forever. There is always more to be conscious of and embody. 

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by ardacigin

[Consilience]

16 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Some nice probing ?? 

Thank you. 

It seems as though the moment qualia arises is the same moment it disappears. The moment form comes to exist its already gone... It’s like my mind cant penetrate any one thing existing because it’s already gone the moment its registered. Memory of various form creates the illusion of continuity. The house I live in is actually always changing, each moment there are billions of changes taking place. But because they are so small and because I have a memory of how the house seems to appear, continuity is constructed. But then if something disappears the moment it appears, it could be said it never actually was... this shit is confusing ?