"presupposing A Non-existing Thing"

[JustinS]

Isn't trying to reach enlightenment actually taking you further from it? Like coming in full circles, only to realize that there was no one to be enlightened in the first place. (Passing through the gateless gate) . Meditating to reach someplace or to achieve or gain is only reinforcing the illusion that "I" exist, no? Presupposing a non-existing thing? 

I do believe it is important to meditate or seek to find out what you are not, but then after that,....? Beliefs of that you are Absolute Awareness doesn't really cut it because you still feel as though you are stuck in a body at some moments. 

 

A bit confused, some advises would clarify, feel free. 

 

[Azrael]

51 minutes ago, JustinS said:

Meditating to reach someplace or to achieve or gain is only reinforcing the illusion that "I" exist, no? Presupposing a non-existing thing?

With enlightenment it is similar to wanting to become a master in any other domain in life. First you are all spoiled with all the benefits and cool stuff that is connected to it so that you start off trying to become a master. To do that you chose one of the many techniques that are out there to master your domain.

After some while you find out that all though you know all the methods, all the little tricks and all the vocabulary that is out there, there is this one little thing that makes the difference to become a master rather than a highly skilled student. So finally, when enough time passed, you come to the conclusion that your seeking simply does not have any effect whether you become a master or not because what you are looking for is something spontaneous, a happening that comes to you (like it does in any field of mastery in life).

When that moment passes and this comes on to you after trying for so long, not trying for so long (trying to get it that way) there is a sense in you that gives up, that sincerely doesn't care anymore. In this moment, the thing happens.

So was all the seeking needed?

[Mal]

@JustinS Hi Justin,

I'd like to add a small addition to @Arik fine response.

Let's turn your inquiry on its head.

In the words of the charming and funny Eckhart Tolle (thank you @Vigi for the recent clip and reminder) : 

"You are already enlightened.  You just can't feel it because your mind is making too much noise".

We are that which we already seek. But to "realize" this for ourselves means we must master the skill of Mindfulness.  

Were not seeking enlightenment on the cushion, we are mastering the essential skill of mindfulness so we can "get out of our own way".

This I believe is a slightly more helpful context in which to approach this endeavour, because now "seeking" becomes a non-issue.

And surely by now, most of us already know what happens when we give up seeking...

-Mal

 

 

[Vigi]

It's a paradox. Becoming enlightened is ultimately about letting go. Trying to become enlightened by studying all the techniques related to it is the opposite of letting go. It can still be helpful to study it though. It's hard to fall asleep at night if there haven't been daytime in advance.

I'm pretty much repeating what the previous posters expressed so well. But it's good to hear the same thing from different angles I believe.

[cetus]

3 hours ago, JustinS said:

Beliefs of that you are Absolute Awareness doesn't really cut it because you still feel as though you are stuck in a body at some moments

@JustinS If absolute awareness is only a belief or concept at this point, the first hand experience is needed. Even if it only last a couple of minutes it can still show you the true direction and open up a part of you that was dormant. After the experience I constantly slip back into being centered within the body again. It is a constant struggle to keep that door open. But I know it's always there now. Some days it's easy and everything is right in front of you (as it has always been) and some days it's not so easy and it is more illusive. For me it's a constant struggle because the body/mind is always pulling me back. It is getting somewhat easier by the day. Eventually it will totally consume "me" over time. I'm optimistic. For an example: On Wednesday after I meditated pure awareness was particularly strong. Everything surrounding me was bathed in an ocean of pure presents. It felt as if I was at the bottom of a sea, but instead of being surrounded by water, I was surrounded by pure awareness. Just thinking about now that gets my back there and reopens that gateless, gate. Everything around us is submerged in an ocean of pure awareness. It's a unified field. It's always there.

[abrakamowse]

I think this can be of help for you @JustinS  I used to ask the same question myself. Buddha says that's a question to be put aside. The idea of no self helps us not to cling to anything, so we can reach freedom.

"

So, instead of answering "no" to the question of whether or not there is a self — interconnected or separate, eternal or not — the Buddha felt that the question was misguided to begin with. Why? No matter how you define the line between "self" and "other," the notion of self involves an element of self-identification and clinging, and thus suffering and stress. This holds as much for an interconnected self, which recognizes no "other," as it does for a separate self. If one identifies with all of nature, one is pained by every felled tree. It also holds for an entirely "other" universe, in which the sense of alienation and futility would become so debilitating as to make the quest for happiness — one's own or that of others — impossible. For these reasons, the Buddha advised paying no attention to such questions as "Do I exist?" or "Don't I exist?" for however you answer them, they lead to suffering and stress."

 

You can read the whole article here if you like

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html

 

[JustinS]

Found this on the internet, cool little comic: 

Basically, 

Here's how you become enlightened.

Put a white sock on your left hand and call him Zen master.

Put a black sock on your right hand.  and call him George.

Send George on a great journey to meet the Zenmaster.

 

When he finally meets the Zen master he asks the master...   "Master how can i reach (YOUR NAME HERE)?  How do i become (YOUR NAME HERE)?"

Have Zen master respond  "My child, you already ARE  (YOUR NAME HERE).

 

When George comes to realize that there is no George and that he's actually a sock puppet being played by (YOUR NAME HERE), and that he and Zen master are actually the same person...

 

You will become enlightened.    

All you have to do is take George on this journey and help him realize that he's a made up character created by you.  and that there is no George.

 

Thank you all for your responses, much love. 

[abrakamowse]

@JustinS  LOL

 

Awesome!

 

[Vigi]

@JustinS I found that really powerful. Really cool way of putting it! I'd like to hear more creative personative on enlightenment, which I realize is quite stupid of me. I procrastinate on letting go by wanting to hear more perspectives on letting go.