Concern Regarding Free Healthcare, Free College, and Taxing The Top 1%

[kieranperez]

These 3 matters arose for me back in early college when I had a more liberatarian view on the worldview which had me question the efficacy of what Bernie was proposing during the last democrat presidential nomination:

1. Free Healthcare - First, we see in certain (I know of Australia and Cananda as examples but I don’t want to say all because I have no heard much on this issue in Northern European countries as I’m not as informed as I’d like to be right now so I don’t want to make overarching claims) democratic socialist countries where it can take for example 5+ hours to get treatment in an emergency room because hospitals become overrun with people who are going there for much smaller reasons which can make it harder for the people that actually need help to get the treatment they need. Second, I don’t see how this addresses the systemic issues that are pervasive in the health care industry. However, I could also see this from the POV that we still need to solve more level medical problems like being available to enough people before we can come up with more practical, creative, and systemic 2nd tier changes.
2. Taxing The Top 1% (or really the top 0.01%) - I don’t remember what President it was nor the time era, but I recall in recent (or somewhat recent) French history there was an increase in the tax bracket for the most wealthy and the tax money France was trying to collect from them never came in because those that were receiving that tax bracket decided to literally leave the country to avoid paying. I’ve even heard this concern come from Mark Cuban who raised this remark when being interviewed - granted, I can see that he may have a bias when raising such concern regarding increased taxation and UBI because he may not be willing to pay more. Regardless, I still feel it’s a valid point worth considering. 
3. Free College - First, to be honest is a bit of a touchy subject for me so I probably have a bias in this stance as someone who left college and has ADHD that made school insanely difficult for me. My whole thing regarding this is simple and I’m not saying anything new - the entire school system is broken. Modern school is 150 years out of date. I’m stunned that were not seeing (radical) education reformation right now to help not even the playing field for kids with different who require different ways of learning but also actually learning in the first place and not just being a dog that jumps through hoops. Though it’s undeniable that someone will be more intelligent (depending what you call intelligence but that’s a separate matter) in certain types of intelligence than if he/she didn’t go to school at all, I don’t see how making college free in an age where college degrees for the most part is pretty much worthless is the answer. Now, maybe we need to go through this phase of helping those very underprivileged families in parts of America that are very uneducated to have that opportunity for maybe a generation or so before we make a  real collective decision to bring forth a real systematic overhaul in education. Second, I still don’t see how we’re going to make schools like Stanford, CalTech, Ivy Leagues, and other such universities free. Also, what about those smaller liberal arts universities that are more specialized for certain types of people regarding either trade or even mental opportunities that rely on the funding they get to stay afloat? 

Edited September 30, 2019 by kieranperez

[Leo Gura]

1) By having free universal care there will be far less need of emergency rooms. Right now emergency rooms are overworked because people can't afford basic preventative care. If your condition is not an emergency they can just tell you to see your doctor the next week.

2) Leaving is not enough, you'd have to renounce your US citizenship. If you want to renouce it, go ahead. But then you forego the benefits of being an American and in a sense you literally have betrayed your own country for money. Some will do that, but most won't because they are too attached to living and doing biz in the US.

3) Your same argument could be made for public schools. Yet schooling is the one thing that keeps humanity out of barbarism. Free college also includes vocational training programs. So if you want to get training to become a pumbler or whatever, that's covered. So free college is not just for nerds or intellectuals. No one is talking about making Harvard free. Only public universities would be free. Private ones would still cost a lot. But they would now have to compete on cost with good free public schools like UCLA, UC Berkeley, etc.

The point is to establish a nice baseline standard for all citizens, so nobody gets totally fucked for life, the way it happens now.

[CreamCat]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

schooling is the one thing that keeps humanity out of barbarism.

While education is good, it is not necessary to herd billions of children into small physical spaces called classes.

Forcing everyone to learn at the same pace is terribly inefficient and frustrating. Inefficiency of education is one of the major reasons for becoming a wage slave.

In the future, AI robots can dish out basic free education. Robots can be dispatched to various places that need manual labor and education and basic security. Assuming technological singularity occurs in my lifetime, I might see it happen.

Edited September 30, 2019 by CreamCat

[CreamCat]

1 hour ago, Shiva said:

Nobody has to be homeless in Germany, the government provides a nice baseline for all citizens.

Does germany put 5 or more homeless people in a bedroom?

I don't know german standards for basic housing.

Edited September 30, 2019 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, CreamCat said:

While education is good, it is not necessary to herd billions of children into small physical spaces called classes.

Forcing everyone to learn at the same pace is terribly inefficient and frustrating. Inefficiency of education is one of the major reasons for becoming a wage slave.

In the future, AI robots can dish out basic free education. Robots can be dispatched to various places that need manual labor and education and basic security. Assuming technological singularity occurs in my lifetime, I might see it happen.

Before we deal with the problem of evolving education to the next level we first have to deal with the more basic problem of providing everyone with education.

Actually, herding billions of children into classrooms is necessary. At least at this point in our evolution. It's got some downsides, but don't forget the massive upsides.

It's easy to criticize education. But how would you make it better? And remember, your solution must scale to billions of children. So some fantasy of having children running around in the grass doing whatever they want is not gonna fly. You'd need to design a system which scales to billions of students, is better than the current one, works within realistic budget constraints, and is politically acceptable to most parents. That is a very difficult design problem. Which is why we have the current system we have.

[CreamCat]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You'd need to design a system which scales to billions of students, is better than the current one, works within realistic budget constraints, and is politically acceptable to most parents. That is a very difficult design problem.

The main problem is that of budget and scale. Once AI robots become sophisticated enough and cheap enough as you can see in I, Robot(a movie released in 2004), robots can do the heavy lifting.

Robots can and will be supplemented by AI education softwares on computer screens.

With 1 robot per 5 people on this planet, this is easily done.

If every household has one car, it can probably afford one robot in a few decades.

Edited September 30, 2019 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

The main problem is that of budget and scale. Once AI robots become sophisticated enough and cheap enough as you can see in I, Robot(a movie released in 2004), robots can do the heavy lifting.

Robots can and will be supplemented by AI education softwares on computer screens.

With 1 robot per 5 people on this planet, this is easily done.

If every household has one car, it can probably afford one robot in a few decades.

Be careful just off-loading the problem onto some magical AI or robots. AI and robots are not going to magically solve our problems. They will create as many new problems are they solve.

If robots ever get good enough to replace teachers, humans will be in trouble.

At that point, what is the point of educating humans? Just replace humans with robots.

[CreamCat]

7 minutes ago, Shiva said:

So, a lot of people exploit the system and basically live like parasites of public funds without any intention to ever get a job.

I think they lack vision and life purpose. Once they discover their life purpose, they will stop exploiting the system.

Guaranteeing basic life is good because it's difficult for people to think about life purpose when they are heavily distracted by wage slavery. Wage slavery is a constant stream of distractions.

Edited September 30, 2019 by CreamCat

[CreamCat]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Be careful just off-loading the problem onto magical AI or robot. AI and robots are not going to magically solve our problems. They will create as many new problems are they solve.

They may not magically solve problems, but they can do the heavy lifting of menial mental tasks without which we cannot solve a lot of problems.

I don't think we can go to the next level of anything in any sane amount of time without their heavy lifting.

Computers already do a lot of heavy lifting without which human civilization as we know it may collapse tragically.

They can make it far easier to implement free healthcare, free education, free housing, and basic income.

As long as we can make them help us, they can do a lot of good.

Edited October 1, 2019 by CreamCat

[Thewritersunion]

And plus robots could replace you digitally too.

sadly.

[Aeris]

19 hours ago, Shiva said:

No, the government will actually give you a flat with a computer, TV etc. and some basic income of around 400€ per month. Larger families will get larger flats and more money.

It's a good idea generally speaking, but far from perfect because the standard of living you get by not working at all is almost as good or sometimes even better than working low wage.

So, a lot of people exploit the system and basically live like parasites of public funds without any intention to ever get a job.

In France it's the same.

I want to work though ( don't find job in my skill ). Even in a stupid coffee. But. If I work 20 hours = 600 - 490 = 110€ +  than welfare ( 490 )

When I work I loose welfare.

So why should I work at all ? It become stupid.

Should I work 140-150h / month for 1000€ ? ( Instead of 490 ) In a meaningless job ?

But I m doing 3D. Drawing. Music. Design as my only activities at home. I would be totaly fine with 600 instead of 490.. but I don't see why I would need 50% monney increase for 150 hours of meaningless waste of my life.

I m looking for work without diploma and driver licence and no experience.

Then After the 600 jobs on the website they remain 5. And they are all 'interim' means limited and pay under the.average 10€/ hour.

The RU ( accumulative ) + lesser salary would have been perfect....

I would have done uber eat.

But I m obligated with the system to do nothing.

I can't study more neither. Especially cause all the job I wish for are 'books' not 'diploma'.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Aeris

[Hansu]

On 9/30/2019 at 7:42 AM, kieranperez said:

emocratic socialist countries where it can take for example 5+ hours to get treatment in an emergency room because hospitals become overrun with people who are going there for much smaller reasons

Im gonna throw my 2 cents on this topic.

I live in Finland, and I have chronic back pain. Before I got into workforce and got into the healthcare program of my company, going to doctor for my backpain was a hell. When I called for an appointment to the governmental doctor, it would take from 2 weeks up to 2 months to get an appointment.  Then when you actually get to the doctors office, you have to beg for medications because the public doctors are very reluctant in giving opioids for your pain because of the people who use them wrongly, but private doctor has no problem with prescribing you medication that actually helps.

I have gone to the public doctor for my back pain for 3 times. Every time I had to wait for 2 weeks up to 2 months for an appointment. A few months ago my back pain went through the roof once again, and immediately I got an appointment with my company's private health care. The same day I called. He prescribed me the pills and I have never in my life recovered from the crippling back pains as fast as I did with the help of that medication that I never got from public healthcare.

Public healthcare is great for those who are not privileged to having a private healthcare plan, but at least where I live, public healthcare's quality is terrible compared to private healthcare.

Oh, and its even worse when it comes to public dental care btw. Much worse.

 

EDIT: On the sidenote, free college made it possible for me to have that company healthcare plan

Edited October 1, 2019 by Hansu

[Johnny]

healthcare? you mean sickcare, right? free or not free - I prefer not to use it, except for lifetreathing stuff-  

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Hansu said:

When I called for an appointment to the governmental doctor, it would take from 2 weeks up to 2 months to get an appointment. 

Many private doctors in the US are booked for weeks or months at a time. Even with private plans you still often have to wait. The better the doctor the longer you usually have to wait.

So the idea of immediate care is a myth. Especially for serious conditions.

But also, having to wait 2 weeks is a small price to pay when the alternative might be that you get no coverage at all or you go into medical bankruptcy due to medical bills. Most conditions can wait a few weeks. Emergency rooms are available for urgent stuff.

Quote

Then when you actually get to the doctors office, you have to beg for medications because the public doctors are very reluctant in giving opioids for your pain because of the people who use them wrongly, but private doctor has no problem with prescribing you medication that actually helps.

I'm not sure this is a good thing. Of course a private doctor makes lots of money off prescribing opioids gratuitously.

Quote

Public healthcare is great for those who are not privileged to having a private healthcare plan, but at least where I live, public healthcare's quality is terrible compared to private healthcare.

Of course the whole point of any universal social service is that it will not be as good as the best private services. But that's a reasonable sacrifice for the greater good of allowing everyone in the country to get the service.

Yeah, if you have an elite private plan, a public plan will be a downgrade for you because 330 million people cannot all have an elite service -- by definition. What you must realize though is that your personal survival is not the only issue here. Yes, in a society you have to make a personal sacrifices so that others can have some benefit too.

Yes, if you're super rich higher taxes are bad for you personally. But living in a society requires thinking about bigger issues than just your personal gain.

Fundamentally, you have to share your resources in a society. That's what society is. This is what conservatives and libertarians don't understand here. What's required is a paradigm shift where you're not merely thinking about what is maximally beneficial to you and your family, but what is good for society as a whole.

Just because it's good for you and your family to have a giant monopoly which earns you billions of dollars doesn't mean it's good for society. In a sense, you are leeching off society but calling it your own labor.

What needs to be acknowledged is how much a well-functioning society enables your success. Human success does not happen outside of a society. If you were born in the wrong society you would be a slave. Don't forget that. Your elite healthcare plan is not some entitlement you deserve. It's a function of how society is structured, of which you were a lucky beneficially. You could have easily wound up on the losing end of the structure.

Imagine if you had to wait 3 years to go to a doctor because you couldn't afford it. Well, that happens to people every day.

[CreamCat]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Imagine if you had to wait 3 years to go to a doctor because you couldn't afford it. Well, that happens to people every day.

That's a problem of lack of information processing power. Medical training is the bottleneck. In other words, we are the bottleneck.

It could take hundreds of years to just train enough numbers of doctors for humanity.

If artificial intelligence replaced human doctors in many capacities or virtually all capacities, access to healthcare could become very cheap.

It's very cheap to copy a well-trained medical artificial intelligence.

I'm really looking forward to the so-called intelligence explosion.

It's going to put people out of jobs in the short term. In the long term, we get a lot of benefits.

Edited October 1, 2019 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

That's a problem of lack of information processing power. Medical training is the bottleneck. In other words, we are the bottleneck.

Obviously not since this problem does not exist in Canada and in most other wealthy developed countries.

The problem is not lack of doctors. The problem is the corporate greed and devilry of the US healthcare industry cartel.

There is no reason why everyone in America cannot have decent healthcare. But the healthcare industry would have to make a lot less profit off sick people. There's your real bottleneck.

And no amount of robots or AI will solve this problem. Be careful with your tech fantasies. Tech does not resolve fundamental problems of devilry, it makes them worse.

We are the bottleneck in that we are devils.

[CreamCat]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously not since this problem does not exist in Canada and in most other wealthy developed countries.

The problem is not lack of doctors. The problem is the corporate greed and devilry of the US healthcare industry cartel.

There is no reason why everyone in America cannot have decent healthcare. But the healthcare industry would have to make a lot less profit off sick people. There's your real bottleneck.

And no amount of robots or AI will solve this problem. Be careful with your tech fantasies. Tech does not resolve fundamental problems of devilry, it makes them worse.

We are the bottleneck in that we are devils.

Ok, that may happen. Devilry is quite a bitch.

But, I think it's hard to predict every side effect of intelligence explosion. It could either break or strengthen healthcare cartel.

I mean smartphones had an unforeseen side effect of giving africans cheap access to internet. In africa, wired internet is expensive. Intelligence explosion will cause a lot of unforeseen side effects.

I suspect healthcare industry may identify general artificial intelligence as a threat and try to destroy it or delay it as much as possible. I mean it's very difficult to keep prices high when medical artificial intelligence copies itself to death.

Edited October 1, 2019 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

@CreamCat The point is it's silly to wait for AI to maybe save us in 50 years when we can fix the problem now and save millions of lives.

If your child was sick you would not be dreaming of AI, you'd want a political solution now. Especially since your Canadian neighbors solved this problem 50 years ago.

No technological breakthrough is needed here.

[CreamCat]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@CreamCat The point is it's silly to wait for AI to maybe save us in 50 years when we can fix the problem now.

Maybe, I was being lazy by off-loading problems into the future. I'm quite lazy.

How would you fix it now?

Edited October 1, 2019 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

How would you fix it now?

Vote for Bernie-fuckin-socialist-Sanders.