Is Reincarnation Real?

[randombodymind]

Pretty much every advanced spiritual teacher I have come across alludes to multiple lives.
david deida mentioned it in passing saying i'm sure most of you don't feel incarnation, or reincarnation as something you
could feel after you got sensative enough.

When I went on a vipassina retrat gonka qouted the buddha saying that on the moment of enlightenment buddha could see all his previous lives chasing his tail etc...

For years I thought they were all just a bit crazy.

Then I thought about something else
I didn't even used to know one could be more present, then I read a spiritual teaching  about that and went wooooah you can be more present - all this self not being real stuff, everything being conscious and reinacarnation stuff is stupid though.

Then I read a book about the self not being real and had some direct experiances myself and went woooooah the self could be a concept. ook that's really cool, i like the presence stuff and the self being a concept but this everything being conscious stuff is rediciouslous.

Then I had some experiances where I went wooooah everything might be conscious it sure feels like it.

then my mind jumped too - woah every step of the way I listened to spiritual teaches and had an experiance of deeping my awarenss and thought this is cool but I doubted the steps further ahead.

When i was focused on presence, i doubted the self being made up
When i was focusing on the self being made up i doubted everything being conscious
When I had an experience of everything being conscious i doubted the multiple lives stuff.

But what if I'm wrong and they are right. What if the spiritual teaches that new all the other stuff before me also new something i didn't in this area.


THAT REALLY FREAKS ME OUT COZ i have a lot of anxiety now about doing sinful or bad karma actions and so on like greed and glutony etc as if it's no big deal.

What if i'm signing a contract with the universe that's setting me up for a shitty next life.
Or I am just going on my own trip and I should stop judging actions as good or bad because they're isn't some supernatural force giong around judging everyones every move.

I actually don't know anymore. I feel quite devided and don't know what to make of this

[Corte]

this is only another concept, but it might shed some insight into the nature of reincarnation. I think we as humans really underestimate our power. With the help of religion we are taught that we are simple beings under the control of a higher power which we have no chance of replicating. This entire existence is because of the contrast of nothing and something. The nothingness that makes up consciousness creates everything that we know. We are a creator. 

There was a study done in which people were told to think about a certain phenomenon (aliens, angels, god) before entering sleep paralysis. Of course the people that believed in UFOs and alien encounters were abducted and probed in a hyperrealistic experience. The people who strongly believed in God had a spiritual experience involving angels and heaven, or an image of Jesus. They all felt this was real, and that it really took place in real space. This is why there are so many different truths that are fought over, because something is real to everyone but not everyone can believe that everything is real. 

People become addicted to this world and their ego so much that if they leave too soon that attachment/manifestation has so much momentum that it doesn't end with the physical body. This is why suicide doesn't help people, the pain theyre experiencing doesn't end with the body. 

I think one of the benefits of enlightement allows you to break free of the physical and to experience it finally without attachment, which allows you to leave this existence when your body dies.

In conclusion, we experience what we believe and create. These concepts might make sense and make me feel like I know these answers, but they are only that: concepts. I think reincarnation is just as real/not real as anything else you've created. All I know is it's fascinating to think about. 

[Azrael]

8 hours ago, randombodymind said:

I actually don't know anymore. I feel quite devided and don't know what to make of this

Show me the you that dies, than I show you the you that reincarnates.

Picture this: In the beginning this planet was a bunch of rocks, burning, seemingly not intelligent, just lying around. With a lot of time passed these rocks began to change into a lot of frickin' water that transformed itself into the most beautiful forests, deserts, oceans that finally transformed themselves into animals and now humans. You really grew out of this and weren't put in it.

As you grow up your organism complicates itself even more building up this vast system of neuronal cells in your head, which comes across all kind of situations and creates pictures, sounds and stories according to that. That, just contemplating it, is the most spiritual thing itself if you really get this down. Because you are still the rocks. Just highly complicated some time later.

Now this thinking organism after some time "figures all of this world out" and now begins to think about itself and how everything is really opposing it and it has to fight it way through and it is even failing in the end with dying. Isn't that bad? Well, your body will go back to nature and transform itself to dust, probably plants and whatever later. Forever and ever so to speak.

And at some other place nature complicates itself again so much that it becomes a human being that is conscious of itself. So will you ever die?

[step1]

9 hours ago, randombodymind said:

Pretty much every advanced spiritual teacher I have come across alludes to multiple lives.
david deida mentioned it in passing saying i'm sure most of you don't feel incarnation, or reincarnation as something you
could feel after you got sensative enough.

When I went on a vipassina retrat gonka qouted the buddha saying that on the moment of enlightenment buddha could see all his previous lives chasing his tail etc...

For years I thought they were all just a bit crazy.

Then I thought about something else
I didn't even used to know one could be more present, then I read a spiritual teaching  about that and went wooooah you can be more present - all this self not being real stuff, everything being conscious and reinacarnation stuff is stupid though.

Then I read a book about the self not being real and had some direct experiances myself and went woooooah the self could be a concept. ook that's really cool, i like the presence stuff and the self being a concept but this everything being conscious stuff is rediciouslous.

Then I had some experiances where I went wooooah everything might be conscious it sure feels like it.

then my mind jumped too - woah every step of the way I listened to spiritual teaches and had an experiance of deeping my awarenss and thought this is cool but I doubted the steps further ahead.

When i was focused on presence, i doubted the self being made up
When i was focusing on the self being made up i doubted everything being conscious
When I had an experience of everything being conscious i doubted the multiple lives stuff.

But what if I'm wrong and they are right. What if the spiritual teaches that new all the other stuff before me also new something i didn't in this area.


THAT REALLY FREAKS ME OUT COZ i have a lot of anxiety now about doing sinful or bad karma actions and so on like greed and glutony etc as if it's no big deal.

What if i'm signing a contract with the universe that's setting me up for a shitty next life.
Or I am just going on my own trip and I should stop judging actions as good or bad because they're isn't some supernatural force giong around judging everyones every move.

I actually don't know anymore. I feel quite devided and don't know what to make of this

Who is reincarnated?

[abrakamowse]

12 hours ago, Arik said:

Show me the you that dies, than I show you the you that reincarnates.

Picture this: In the beginning this planet was a bunch of rocks, burning, seemingly not intelligent, just lying around. With a lot of time passed these rocks began to change into a lot of frickin' water that transformed itself into the most beautiful forests, deserts, oceans that finally transformed themselves into animals and now humans. You really grew out of this and weren't put in it.

As you grow up your organism complicates itself even more building up this vast system of neuronal cells in your head, which comes across all kind of situations and creates pictures, sounds and stories according to that. That, just contemplating it, is the most spiritual thing itself if you really get this down. Because you are still the rocks. Just highly complicated some time later.

Now this thinking organism after some time "figures all of this world out" and now begins to think about itself and how everything is really opposing it and it has to fight it way through and it is even failing in the end with dying. Isn't that bad? Well, your body will go back to nature and transform itself to dust, probably plants and whatever later. Forever and ever so to speak.

And at some other place nature complicates itself again so much that it becomes a human being that is conscious of itself. So will you ever die?

I really like that point of view, It's close to what I think right now.

[Khin]

Nothing disappear after all. Just the form changed. But then, the change = dead because the previous form is no longer there and will never be there again. The nature is impermanent.

The reincarnation is real. But it just not the same as most people think.

[charlie2dogs]

what does it matter if it is real or not, most will never know, what should be important is to achieve a state of liberation from the fictitious identity, the programing, the false belief, the desires of the identity and its ego, and be able to function in the moment of life as a being of consciousness, whereby you see the reality of the events that arise around you and within you, and you may choose to embrace or ignore what doesn't serve you well and that which would create consequences, so in reality reincarnation doesn't even matter whether it is true or not, and i think most who are talking about it are full of bull and just repeating what they have heard or read from someone else's  words.  If it isn't living experience for you , it ain't real

[Khin]

We shouldn't ignore anything by saying we don't exist. We aren't fully enlightened people after all. everything is still real. "I exist" is still real and "I don't exist" is just a knowledge for now. So, we should not do anything insane. One thing for sure is there are many thing we don't know out there. So just holding our questions would be the best for now. If we really want to know, then we will sure get the answer in our experiences when the time come. That answer would be better than 'Thinking.'

[randombodymind]

love this forum. What a community.
Much wisdom. Great sages. Wow!
But really thanks guys, helps me drop worrying about the whole thing and just get back to enjoying life

[Henri]

@randombodymind  I hope you`ll not start worrying again...... 

Every object in this universe is endowed with four characteristics. They are Dharma, Karma, Prema, and Gyana. Dharma means nature. Everything has a definite nature; animate or inanimate objects. They’ve a nature. Monkeys have their nature; human beings have their nature. In the same way, metals have their nature; aluminum has its nature, copper has its nature. Nature is called Dharma.

There is certain activity, definite activity, that is attributed; or that comes out of each object. It’s easy to say object, it can include also living beings. It is Karma.

Then, the third is Prema, means love. There is love in every particle of this creation. Love is attraction, love means absorbing, the viscosity bring together. So many atoms come together, so molecule is made up to an 
object. A type of molecules and atoms get in to a shape, so we called this metal, this is copper etc. there is something that holds things together and disfrock of bringing together. Holding things together is called love or Prema. Love is present in the entire creation, in every particle of this creation. There is love and that is how there is reproduction happening. There is love, that’s how the planets are moving around orbits. There is love, so sun is shining, stars are shining. There is love in every atom, that’s why the electron is moving around the charged particle. The charge of attraction or in the entire creation is power or love. 

And Gyana. A body, which is listening and knows what is happening in the surrounding, is the consciousness. The knowingness present in our body also present in every particle of creation. How do we know? Only through the head? Only through the senses? No, our entire body has ability to know. The mind is not just in the head, it is all over the body. Suppose, when your name was called in a dormitory, you wake up, not the other person. But even in sleep, we have an ability to know. And this ability to know is permitting in our entire consciousness. And consciousness is present in all over the body and beyond the body; this is called Gyana. The knowingness of intelligence or the intelligence in the existence. You might have seen the touch-me-not plant; when you go near it, even if you’ve not touched it, it gets closed. The plants can feel as they know; similarly animals have their own degree of knowingness. The dog can sense, birds can sense something that is going to happen. If there is an earthquake, you can hear the birds behave few hours’ earlier making noises. Dogs can feel much earlier than you could feel it. So, there is a degree of knowingness present in the entire creation. It varies, like the level of love also varies. Say, how much love a dog expresses? Suppose you’re out even for few hours and comes back home and the dogs get crazy; jumps all over the place, jumps on sofa and jumps on you; it doesn’t know what to do. It wants to pour out all its love on you. It tries to express; it doesn’t say – I love you very much. It doesn’t say – I can’t live without you; but that moment it just flirts you with their moments. In the same way, the plants and trees in your garden do imit love, they express loves to you. 


What is Karma? Most used and often misunderstood word is karma. Karma is action. The action could be letting, could be in the form of tendency, and could be a future happening. So, there are three types of karma. Prarabdha, means the action which is manifest now; Sanchita Karma, means the future action which was proposed to do later; the collected karma, the present karma which is running in action and then the future karma that would happen. After listening to whatever we are discussion here now, and you’ll go back home and you might remember or you may totally forget it, this is Agami Karma; the future karma. So the impression in the mind is latent action; it is still action, but it is latent. Just like the memory; a memory functional now, other memories are latent within us. You know the mathematical table; but right now you’re not memorizing it. You no need to memorize every time; when you need it just pops up. So certain impressions, strong impressions in the mind remain and they form the future karma. Every habit is a sort of karma. Suppose you’ve been drinking coffee every morning; and one day you don’t drink, you get head ache. This is coffee karma. So, how to eliminate coffee karma? Either by drinking it or observing it. Being aware of a tendency in us will help us to overcome the tendency or experiencing the tendency will overcome the tendency. Here is the clay of Gyana, knowledge, awareness. Knowledge means the informative knowledge; here knowledge means awareness, the sense of knowingness. When you increase the sense of knowingness, your karma gets reduced. All the animals have got only the Prarabdha Karma; means the karma on which they do not have any controls. The nature runs them so they don’t accumulate a future karma. If you’re like an animal totally you don’t get any karma. But as a human being this is impossible; because our mind gets in to that impression.
 

Now, Reincarnation – that’s another topic. Reincarnation means coming again in to a body. Our mind is energy and by the third law of thermodynamics – energy can’t be destroyed. If mind is energy, what happens to this energy when someone dies? Now when someone dies, what is happening? Death is almost like a sleep. What happens to you, when you sleep? Every night you go on to your bed and sleep and you never met you a sleep. If you meet your sleep; if you happen to understand your sleep, you can understand your death also. While sleeping, all consciousness, attempts of your mind shrinks and shrinks and then one by one you’re shut off from the outer experiences and moving inward, into a wide space. And then how you wake up in the morning; that’s the same energy, same consciousness which was shrunk now starts expanding and opens up and you wake up. When you carefully observe the mechanism the last thought that you get just before falling asleep, becomes the first thought when you wake up. This gives you a clue of your reincarnation. The mind which is full of different impressions leaves this body but the impressions remains with the mind like a balloon; and waits for a proper situation for the same mind to come down. And when there is copulation, when there is a proper room formation, then it just draws, pulls that mind into that room. And then a child is born. A body is gain. So, it is a last thought is more important. Whatever you do throughout in your life, at least in your last moment your mind should be free and happy. If you’re happy with the last moment before your leave the body, then you get a better body next time. It is almost impossible to get animal body after a human birth. It’s very rare; but still it is possible. Someone in the last moment keeps thinking about the chicken, and then he’ll born in the poultry firm. Because the last impression will be the strongest impression and that impression in that mind will produce such a circumstance, situation for the mind to come to the body. 
 

Karma is that which propels reincarnation. Stronger the impression, the nature of next life could be like that. The one thing that can erase the karma is awareness, self awareness. If you’re in total love then you’re free from karma. When you’re in total knowledge, total awareness that is what coming out of the circle of birth and death. You’re not bound by any impression; you’re free. What gives you the freedom is your awareness. Addictions are nothing but very very strong impressions in the consciousness. Whether it is alcohol, sex or drugs or anything; any addiction is like a compulsion or compulsive behavior is all is a part of karma. The karma is infinite. Creation is a not a linear function, it multi-dimensional. Truth is not linear, it is multi-dimensional. It’s like a spherical; in sphere every point is connected with so many other points; if it just a straight line one point is connected with only two points, one back and one front. But in a sphere, point is connected 3600 sides. 

There are many types of Karma; individual Karma, immediate family Karma, the societal Karma and time has Karma of its own too. When a plane accident happens, people of same karmas will be there. And different people of different karmas will escape from the plane as their life has not finished yet. It is almost impossible to pin down which karma brings effect what effect at deep level. Of the three different karmas, Sanchita, the karma which we’ve brought with us; Prarabdha, the karma which is yielding fruits right now; and Agami, the karma which we may incur in the future. Our Sanchita Karma, the karma which we have stored tendency can be burnt out; we can remove that, eliminate that with all this spiritual practices, prayers, service, loving people around us in the nature, meditation; all this erasing the karma which we’ve acquired. The Prarabdha karma, which is already yielding results, will have to be experienced. The third karma is Agami karma which we might meet in the future. Suppose you violate some loss of nature today and in future you’ve to experience. That is consequence. 

Every karma has a limited span of its results. Mainly five things come to us in our life from the Sanchita Karma. Five aspects in life came; birth and the place of birth, the parents from the past karma; your education and line of education, degree of education, how much you acquire knowledge; the wealth, the source wealth; your longevity and mode of death, how you’ll die. These five things come from Sanchita Karma, the karma we’ve acquired. 

Now, how rich we became, how much we can grow in awareness; our marriage, children, and our social work, all these is Agami Karma, the future karmas. And the future karma you can associate now; what you gain now becomes your future karma. So you’ve certain degrees of freedom to act now and acquire more karma. And you’ve certain fate or we call it certain destiny that you’re provided with, that you cannot change. 

Love is the common factor of entire creation. If you see birds, there is love in the birds. Your connectedness with that love takes beyond birth and beyond death.

S.S.R.S.

[30secs]

@Khin yeah ! I agree!  Reincarnation is Radically different than most people think.

[FindingPeace]

On 20/05/2016 at 8:51 AM, Arik said:

Show me the you that dies, than I show you the you that reincarnates.

This really. 'Who' actually dies to be reincarnated?

If we take the concept of no-self as the truth to our existential nature, then there is no 'you' to die or to be reincarnated. If all 'you' are is a field of awareness then there is no way to know if that field of awareness in the 'new' body is the same one that 'you' have, as a field of awareness has no identity in the first place, to make the comparison.

It's really just another concept. When we can empirically prove that someone has been reincarnated, then it is known to be real. Until then, we can't assume it is real, but just another concept or belief in the human psyche.

[Mal]

@randombodymind

Hi there,

Two key players come to mind here -

Esalen Institute: Michael Murphy,

And the late, great Sri Aurobindo. 

Their work will dramatically broaden your perspective. 

-Mal

 

 

[Azrael]

13 minutes ago, FindingPeace said:

If all 'you' are is a field of awareness then there is no way to know if that field of awareness in the 'new' body is the same one that 'you' have, as a field of awareness has no identity in the first place, to make the comparison.

You still suffer under the illusion that there is more than one it, nothingness, field of awareness - however you wanna call it. Think about this: How many things are in the world if you don't have your abstract thinking faculty to analyse it? If you just sense, just look. Without naming anything and without categorizing anything.

What remains is it. The one big wiggle that is you, me, Jesus, Buddha, the door next to you, whatever. All these things were ever present and will be always here in one form or another. As your body dies and you go down, another body will grow up and trick himself into believing he is separate from this world.

You don't have to prove anything here. Just observe. People die, people get born. That's the proof. So as long as there are people, there will be you in that form. Just like you are the wind, the dogs, the birds and anything else that happens. There is no soul to go from one place to the other.

Show me that soul, and I show you the soul the reincarnates.

[abrakamowse]

2 hours ago, Arik said:

You still suffer under the illusion that there is more than one it, nothingness, field of awareness - however you wanna call it. Think about this: How many things are in the world if you don't have your abstract thinking faculty to analyse it? If you just sense, just look. Without naming anything and without categorizing anything.

What remains is it. The one big wiggle that is you, me, Jesus, Buddha, the door next to you, whatever. All these things were ever present and will be always here in one form or another. As your body dies and you go down, another body will grow up and trick himself into believing he is separate from this world.

You don't have to prove anything here. Just observe. People die, people get born. That's the proof. So as long as there are people, there will be you in that form. Just like you are the wind, the dogs, the birds and anything else that happens. There is no soul to go from one place to the other.

Show me that soul, and I show you the soul the reincarnates.

So, the concept of reincarnation is taken in the broadest meaning? I mean, while there's still process of being born and dead there's reincarnation?

I have to read about that, I know... hehehe...

[FindingPeace]

2 hours ago, Arik said:

You still suffer under the illusion that there is more than one it, nothingness, field of awareness - however you wanna call it.

Point understoodand and taken here.

[Leo Gura]

You gotta wonder, what is it exactly that's being "reincarnated"? The thing you think of as you -- the personality and ego -- ain't anything solid. It doesn't even stay the same in one lifetime. And the soul -- well, it too doesn't really exist.

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

@Leo Gura Mmm. What about Matt Khan or Osho? They said they've reincarnated and had personal experiences about it. Matt also says that personality is a trait of the soul. Probably there is more than it meet the eye...

[Leo Gura]

A lot of people say a lot of things.

The deepest truth I've extrapolated so far is Absolute Nothingness. Maybe there's something else to be found, I dunno, there's lots of different types of mystical experiences, but it doesn't seem that way from where I'm sitting. Things like soul, spirit, and even consciousness is not as deep a truth as Nothingness. Nothingness is beyond all mystical experience, beyond soul, beyond existence, beyond non-existence, beyond any thing whatsoever. And it seems like only the most hardcore and grounded people find it and speak of it accurately.

But maybe I'm wrong.

The problem is, that personal experiences of any kind, even if they are heavenly or otherworldly, are still experiences. And enlightenment is NOT an experience.

Before you were born, there was no experience. But you were will still you. And you're still that you. And you will be that you after you die. But that you is nothing you can imagine or fathom. And it is not an experience.

[abrakamowse]

@Leo Gura  That's why I think sometimes is better not to ask so many questions. It's like one of those question Buddha say to put it aside. The main focus should be to get enlightened, then we will know what we need to know.

IMO