Trump Impeachment

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, samedm9 said:

Where do you see evidence that Trump “enlisted help” to “dig up dirt” on Biden. 

All that he did was ask, not even demand, that the situation with the Bidens be investigated, looked into. 

If Biden is corrupt, (most certainly) then what is the problem with trump asking that he be investigated? At this point it shouldn’t matter wether he’s running for office, or not. 

Again, should we just “leave the dirt in the ground”, because exposing the corruption would hurt Biden’s chances? And Again, if the dirt is there, So It Should be dug up.

Another point is, there is No indication whatsoever, that the Whitehouse would have made public, any of the potential reported findings of Ukraine’s investigation into the Bidens before the 2020 elections, if at all.  How would it hurt Biden’s campaign considering this?????

Asking is still illegal. 

Saying "All he did was ask." is the same thing as saying "All he did was the illegal thing."

But I agree the dirt on Biden should be dug up. 

That said, it is illegal for the president to do research into their political opponents with the help of a foreign government. It doesn't get any clearer than that. 

 

[Forestluv]

This is some very encouraging polling that came out today. Americans are waking up. This is an enormous shift in public sentiment since last polls. 55% of the public now supports impeachment proceeding. A couple weeks ago, it was about 35%.

For those that ask “why impeach if the senate will acquit?”. This is one reason why. Democracy is based on public consent  through elections. If the public is unaware what is happening, they cannot give informed consent and it is no longer a democracy. Impeachment proceedings give the House more power to investigate wrongdoing. It gives them more power to attain records and compel witnesses to testify under oath. And it provides information to the public  - allowing them to make informed decisions of whether to give consent to the president or withhold consent from the president. 

And don’t assume the senate will acquit. The majority of senators dislike Trump  and think he is unfit - the would much prefer a different conservative as their leader. They are afraid of Trump and suffering Trump’s wrath like others who have spoken out. And they don’t want to get primaried and lose the senate seat. Trump continually reinforces this dynamic of intimidation. For example, Trump recently compared whistleblowers to spies and wished he could deal with them like we used to in the good ole days (we used to execute spies). This sends a clear message that Trump sees any disloyalty to him personally the same as treason to the country. And anyone disloyal to him will suffer extreme consequences. This is red on SD.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-impeachment-inquiry-poll-cbs-news-poll-finds-majority-of-americans-and-democrats-approve/

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But I agree the dirt on Biden should be dug up. 

I think Biden has been engaged in a lot of generic unethical political behavior. Such as getting his son a high paying position he is unqualified for. Yet I would consider Trump’s behavior two orders of magnitude worse. One of Trump’s strategies is to deflect and muddy waters with false equivalencies. My hope is that Biden falls out of the democratic primary and the focus stays of Trump’s wrongdoing. Biden is is a garden-variety corrupt politician - like 80% of politicians. Trump is much worse. He is the worst corrupt politician in the U.S. right now.

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

Why even bother, then? 

Everyone must know its just a dud, nothing will come out of this impeachment with a red senate. 

The reason why is because they want to throw the heat off of Biden, who is the front-running Democratic establishment candidate. 

The establishment Democrats, like Nancy Pelosi, are trying to throw people off of Biden's scent because the progressive candidates Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are polling within only a few percentage points of him. And they stand to lose a lot of money if either of them get elected... especially if Bernie Sanders gets elected.

Their numbers keep going up as they campaign and Biden's numbers keep going down as he gaffes more and more dirt comes out about him being handsy with minors, supporting segregation back in the 60s, shitting on millennials, showing signs of confusion/cognitive decline on the campaign trail and during speeches, and a whole bunch more.

The establishment Dems know that Biden is in a fragile place because he has been steadily bleeding away his initial lead which was very strong. Before, he was a solid 20 points ahead of Bernie and Elizabeth. Now, he's like 1 or 2 points ahead, as their popularity grows and his diminishes.

This is also why Biden's chosen to do a limited campaign. The more he's in front of people, the more he tanks. So, his solution is to ride of name recognition and association with Barack Obama, who is seen in a nostalgic light for many on center-left... despite his corruption and milktoast Centrism.

So, when Trump did this, it spells a very bad look for Biden. His son has basically been employed and paid copious amounts of money by the fossil fuel industry to do nothing, based off of pure nepotism and the industry heads in the Ukraine purchasing favor with Joe Biden. 

So, of course the Democratic establishment chooses this instance to impeach Trump. They don't care if it really happens or not. The point is simply to create chaos so that no one sees the corruption. They're hoping to ride off of the Trump hate that so many on the left feel to obscure Biden's corruption and have us focus on Trump's impeachment... which isn't going to happen in the first place.

If they really wanted Trump impeached, they could have done it already. Trump has violated the emoluments clause of the constitution by having Saudi Arabian government officials stay at his Trump hotels and overpay. This is basically a money-laudering scheme where the Saudi government is funneling money to him to buy favor.

To which, Trump has already vetoed a bill that passed both the house and senate to rescind support from the Saudi Arabian military as they continue to enact genocide in Yemen. And that money that he funnels through his businesses is likely the reason why that bill was vetoed.

And it's normally not allowed. Jimmy Carter, back in the 70s when he was president, was required to sell a peanut farm that he owned for this very same reason. The rationale given, was that there could be foreign government officials, just buying up a bunch of "peanuts" to funnel money to him to buy favor. So, he had to divest that business.

But Trump found a loophole in that he just gave his business over to his kids. And he pretends to have divested from it. 

But truly, if the Democrats really wanted him impeached (which they don't because he benefits them financially too), they would go after him on violation of the emoluments clause. 

So, this is all shadow puppetry and nothing else. Trump isn't going anywhere, unless they happen to find something stronger against him while investigating.

Yet again, the Democrats were very specific that they're narrowing their scope only to this one issue. So, if that tells you something, it says "We're not really looking to impeach."

 

 

[Forestluv]

@Emerald I’d say it’s a combination of holding Trump accountable and protecting Biden. I think this rises to a higher level than Trump’s other wrong doings because he is directly interfering with an upcoming election. And Trump is hiding evidence on high level coded servers that only a few people can access. The previous Russia investigation was indirect interference by Trump on a previous election. Ukraine is an escalation and much more threatening to democrats - and democratic elections. 

I agree that some democrats are protecting Trump. In particular Richard Neal on the ways and means committee that refuses to investigate Trumps financial dealings. My hunch is that doing so would expose a lot of shady dealings by corporate democrats, like Neal himself.

Unfortunately, we haven’t evolved enough for progressives to be self sufficient and win elections, we still need corporate dem votes. Hopefully SD models are correct and in the future there will be a green-level progressive party and an Orange level corporate party. And the current red/blue Republican Party will dissolve.

 

[Emerald]

18 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I think Biden has been engaged in a lot of generic unethical political behavior. Such as getting his son a high paying position he is unqualified for. Yet I would consider Trump’s behavior two orders of magnitude worse. One of Trump’s strategies is to deflect and muddy waters with false equivalencies. My hope is that Biden falls out of the democratic primary and the focus stays of Trump’s wrongdoing. Biden is is a garden-variety corrupt politician - like 80% of politicians. Trump is much worse. He is the worst corrupt politician in the U.S. right now.

I would say that Trump is the garden variety corrupt politician. But he is more dangerous in many regards, including demagoguery, persecuting vulnerable groups, and heading his cabinet with tons of billionaires and people who have direct conflicts of interest with their post. Sort of like entrusting the sheep farm to a wolf. Also so much lying beyond what's normal for even politicians.

That said, I'm not willing to underestimate the severity of what establishment politicians do. They too support oppressive governments and vote to stage offensive regime change wars. They support dictators and give weapons deals to countries known for human rights abuses. They leverage the law to do the bidding of the billionaires that bleed the middle class dry and push many into poverty. They support Big Pharma and the health insurance industry, maintaining the corruption in the system so that 30k to 40k Americans dies per year due to under-insurance.

So, I agree that Trump has a more dangerous effect on the populace and waters the worst seeds in use. But he and the other establishment politicians have equally piss-poor and corrupt foreign policy. But Trump is definitely worse domestically due to the cult of personality he has.

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

@Emerald I’d say it’s a combination of holding Trump accountable and protecting Biden. I think this rises to a higher level than Trump’s other wrong doings because he is directly interfering with an upcoming election. And Trump is hiding evidence on high level coded servers that only a few people can access. The previous Russia investigation was indirect interference by Trump on a previous election. Ukraine is an escalation and much more threatening to democrats - and democratic elections. 

I doubt it's about holding Trump accountable. They really don't care about that. It's all about smoke and mirrors and protecting Biden's corruption, through shifting the focus to Trump and his impeachment. I don't expect anything genuine coming from establishment Democrats because they're fundamentally not principled and just interested in their own financial interests.

 And if Biden tanks any further, it's a huge threat to their pocketbooks because he's their candidate. And he isn't looking to rock any boats. Next in line are Sanders and Warren. They'll definitely tip over some cash cows if elected. 

So, they're just trying to keep Biden from sinking further and losing his lead which is now marginal.

[Forestluv]

@Emerald I agree that establishment corporate dems are more concerned about their their electoral power than doing the right thing. By impeaching Trump over this, they get a three for one. They damage Trump by exposing his wrongdoings, they deflect the wrongdoings of Biden and they inhibit interference that would help trump in the 2020 election.

If polling had shown 60% of the population supported impeachment, proceedings would have started a long time ago because it would have helped establishment dems. 

In terms of progress, I think the top priority is to get Sanders or Warren in the WH and fundamentally change the narrative to progressive. And then put the focus on corporate/political corruption. I think Biden will fade on his own without the Ukraine stuff. I think Trump’s wrong doings related to Russia, Ukraine and Saudi Arabia is worth pursuing for various reasons. 

 

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Emerald I agree that establishment corporate dems are more concerned about their their electoral power than doing the right thing. By impeaching Trump over this, they get a three for one. They damage Trump by exposing his wrongdoings, they deflect the wrongdoings of Biden and they inhibit interference that would help trump in the 2020 election.

If polling had shown 60% of the population supported impeachment, proceedings would have started a long time ago because it would have helped establishment dems. 

 

The problem is that this will probably die before it gets anywhere. And they probably know that.

It will honestly likely help Trump in 2020. Bill Clinton got a bump in popularity after he was facing impeachment proceedings. 

So, in my eyes, they're just trying to deflect from Biden and nothing more.

Truthfully, I think they're pretty okay with Trump being in office because he's a sure bet for green-lighting literally everything that benefits them financially. And Trump's antics give them a veneer of respectability in contrast.  They just have to pretend to not be okay with Trump in office because they have to appeal to their voter base.

 

[Cocolove]

@Serotoninluv I've noticed you are really good at explaining concepts like this and also more theoretical (not about a specific situation) things. You have potential way beyond explaining things on a forum.

[Forestluv]

@Emerald In terms of the election, I think there are potential of risk/rewards with impeachment. I lean toward impeachment because I think the risks of no impeachment outweigh potential benefits. As well, I think it is the right thing to do on principles. . . I would place establishment dems a bit further to the left than you do. High Orange on the SD scale - a  level lower than progressives. I also see the toxic orange aspects you describe. Yet, I also err toward seeing good in people. At times I’m naive and slow to see the mal intent in others. 

@Cocolove Thanks. It can be hard to explain some things in a way that connects with people. It is one of my yearnings and I hope to get better at it. I appreciate that you see potential. ? 

[whoareyou]

For those thinking that Sanders would beat Trump are very delusional imo. Trump is full of charisma, while Sanders doesn't have any comparing to him. I tried to watch Sanders interview and almost fell asleep. You may dislike Trump, but one thing you can't say is that he is boring . Go back and watch the old debates from 2016 - it's not even close.

With the current attention of span of your average viewer, I don't think Sanders has a chance, just for that reason alone.

If the Dems had the answer to Trump or how to beat him - you would not see the Russia gate stuff, along with the leftist media attacking him 24/7 right from the get-go.

To also say that Trump is a bigger devil than other candidates is a stretch as well.

FYI: I am not a Trump fan, and would vote for Bernie if i had to choose between these candidates. 

Speaking of corruption, the DNC is as corrupt as they come and I would not vote for any other candidate (other than Bernie)

Edited September 29, 2019 by whoareyou

[Emerald]

6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Emerald In terms of the election, I think there are potential of risk/rewards with impeachment. I lean toward impeachment because I think the risks of no impeachment outweigh potential benefits. As well, I think it is the right thing to do on principles. . . I would place establishment dems a bit further to the left than you do. High Orange on the SD scale - a  level lower than progressives. I also see the toxic orange aspects you describe. 

I am principled on the stance that he should be impeached, as no one is above the law. 

But I do fundamentally see the Democratic establishment as corrupt and a result of the excesses of Orange. So, because they are fundamentally supporting the status quo, I see them as conservative by the very definition of it. They are trying to maintain what is.

And I do think that the impeachment proceedings will help Trump and not hurt him.

 

[Forestluv]

@whoareyou There seems to be a shift since Trump entered the picture. Things seem much more about identity and emotion rather than rational discussions about facts. Theatrics over substance. Reality TV. Trump is a master at this. Dems suck at it. This is my major concern with them bungling impeachment. They will try to make the hearings about substance and have poor theatrics. I have a similar concern with Bernie. He does not have the theatrics. However, there is an energy that he inspires. I think he is the purist candidate and calls it like it is. This was one reason Trump is popular - his supporters feel like he calls it like it is and that he doesn’t try to be politically correct. . . My bigger concern about Bernie is that he is too far from corporations and mainstream media. I actually like that, yet I think it would hurt him in a general. . . 

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I am principled on the stance that he should be impeached, as no one is above the law. 

But I do fundamentally see the Democratic establishment as corrupt and a result of the excesses of Orange. So, because they are fundamentally supporting the status quo, I see them as conservative by the very definition of it. They are trying to maintain what is.

And I do think that the impeachment proceedings will help Trump and not hurt him.

 

I agree, yet I’m not sure about impeachment proceedings. I could see them going toward Clinton or Nixon. Or something in between. My concern is that republicans are much better at messaging than establishment dems. So I can see it benefiting him. Yet I think no impeachment proceedings would benefit him more.

[Emerald]

11 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

For those thinking that Sanders would beat Trump are very delusional imo. Trump is full of charisma, while Sanders doesn't have any comparing to him. I tried to watch Sanders interview and almost fell asleep. You may dislike Trump, but one thing you can't say is that he is boring . Go back and watch the old debates from 2016 - it's not even close.

With the current attention of span of your average viewer, I don't think Sanders has a chance, just for that reason alone.

If the Dems had the answer to Trump or how to beat him - you would not see the Russia gate stuff, along with the leftist media attacking him 24/7 right from the get-go.

To also say that Trump is a bigger devil than other candidates is a stretch as well.

FYI: I am not a Trump fan, and would vote for Bernie if i had to choose between these candidates. 

Speaking of corruption, the DNC is as corrupt as they come and I would not vote for any other candidate (other than Bernie)

Sanders would totally burn Trump to the ground in a debate... TKO-style in terms of both charisma and policy substance.

I'd love to see it. Trump's usual tactics only work because of the spinelessness and corruption of the other person. And the fact that they try to beat him at his own game. And only Trump can be best at his own game.

And Bernie is neither spineless nor corrupt. And Bernie doesn't play games.

The choice will be clear once Bernie starts grilling Trump on his fake populism and broken promises,  and hitting him with some real populism. That's what the people care about anyway. Only the fan-boys care about Trump being a character (which doesn't mean he's charismatic).

Also, Trump's new campaign slogan "Keep America Great" is a sure fail. The only reason he got the support he did was because he promised to make it better. He fundamentally hasn't, and the people that voted for him in hopes he would help realize that.

And if he's saying, "Keep America Great" the people from the still-poor Rust-belt will go after him with the pitchforks and tools from the abandoned factories Trump lied and said he'd save, while continuing to outsource jobs and give huge tax-cuts to the mega-wealthy.

 

 

[Forestluv]

@Emerald It would be amazing to see the contrast of Bernie’s pure real populism and Trump’s polluted fake populism on a debate stage. Trump can try to paint Bernie as a scary socialist, yet not as a corrupt politician. And trump has recently been quoting as saying beating socialist populism won’t be a slam dunk like originally thought.

[whoareyou]

8 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Sanders would totally burn Trump to the ground in a debate... TKO-style in terms of both charisma and policy substance.

I'd love to see it. Trump's usual tactics only work because of the spinelessness and corruption of the other person. And the fact that they try to beat him at his own game. And only Trump can be best at his own game.

And Bernie is neither spineless nor corrupt. And Bernie doesn't play games.

The choice will be clear once Bernie starts grilling Trump on his fake populism and broken promises,  and hitting him with some real populism. That's what the people care about anyway. Only the fan-boys care about Trump being a character (which doesn't mean he's charismatic).

Also, Trump's new campaign slogan "Keep America Great" is a sure fail. The only reason he got the support he did was because he promised to make it better. He fundamentally hasn't, and the people that voted for him in hopes he would help realize that.

And if he's saying, "Keep America Great" the people from the still-poor Rust-belt will go after him with the pitchforks and tools from the abandoned factories Trump lied and said he'd save, while continuing to outsource jobs and give huge tax-cuts to the mega-wealthy.

 

 

You have missed what I was trying to say. A lot of the time, it's not what you say that matters, but how you say it. Non-verbal communication signals play a big role as well.

When it comes to non-verbal communication, Trump is a master at it. I suggest to study this subject in-depth, and start paying more attention to this aspect, than the logical arguments politicians try to make.

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

When it comes to non-verbal communication, Trump is a master at it. I suggest to study this subject in-depth, and start paying more attention to this aspect, than the logical arguments politicians try to make.

Trump’s non-verbal communication is one of his skills - yet it cuts both ways. It is both attractive and repulsive. And I think you are under-appreciating Bernie’s nonverbal. Bernie also has a non-verbal vibe that will resonate with a large portion of the electorate. He also also good intuition. His spontaneous “I wrote the damn bill” during the debate absolutely flattened Tim Ryan and was inspirational to a lot of people that are fed up. He would do the same to Trump. 

This may not resonate with you, yet it does with a lot of others. Bernie would get massive energetic crowds that want to be part of a revolution. I don’t see Bernie’s strongest asset as  logical arguments. That is Warren’s wheelhouse. Bernie shouts things out like “500,000 people went bankrupt this year because of corrupt health insurance crooks stealing your money!, And we are not going to take it anymore!”. 

Trump may inspire his base more because he divides people culturally. This will ignite more passion due to fear and hate. One of Trump’s boogeymen are scary Hispanic men that want to steal our jobs and rape our women. “But we won’t let them!!”. Bernie’s boogeyman is a faceless corporate CEO that has too much wealth and power. That’s not going to generate as much fear and emotion.

[Emerald]

18 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Emerald It would be amazing to see the contrast of Bernie’s pure real populism and Trump’s polluted fake populism on a debate stage. Trump can try to paint Bernie as a scary socialist, yet not as a corrupt politician. And trump has recently been quoting as saying beating socialist populism won’t be a slam dunk like originally thought.

I'm sure he's scared. He can't use his usual thing and be successful against someone like Bernie, who's so above it. He's like this cantankerous old codger that doesn't give a crap what Trump says about him. I mean, honestly, he's supported these platforms for 40 years. Do you know how controversial and against the grain that was 40 years ago? Also, he's used to people throwing all kinds of dishonesty and fear tactics at him. He's desensitized to it by now for sure.

 

 

[Emerald]

12 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

You have missed what I was trying to say. A lot of the time, it's not what you say that matters, but how you say it. Non-verbal communication signals play a big role as well.

When it comes to non-verbal communication, Trump is a master at it. I suggest to study this subject in-depth, and start paying more attention to this aspect, than the logical arguments politicians try to make.

Exactly. And that's one of the many reasons why Bernie will knock him out of the water. Bernie is actually way more likable and charismatic than Trump is. And that's because Bernie has a big personality... but he's not annoying or duplicitous-seeming.

Honestly, Trump couldn't even win the popular vote against Hilary, whose personality and demeanor is like Dolores Umbridge meets nails on chalkboards.

Bernie is a strong figure. He's not budging and he's not playing. He will fight the good fight and do so with integrity. Everything about his demeanor and non-verbal communication screams this.