Sobering First Psychotherapy Session

[peanutspathtotruth]

I followed the advice I was given here in this forum to get into psychotherapy as a help for this work. Today I had my first pre-session where the focus was to assess what is the appropriate direction of therapy I should get into. And somehow this experience crushed me a bit. Let me explain:

The therapist wanted me to just tell her "what's going on". I honestly told her all that I thought might be relevant for her to know to get a picture of me. I tried to get across as clear as possible that I'm actually pretty happy and there's no acute problem - it's more like I would like to get help working on my shadow. I didn't hold back on anything. I told her about the spiritual work I do, what this means, how it changed me and how I fear she wouldn't even understand. I told her about my psychedelic use, how much it helped me and how and why I use them. I told her openly about past addictions, current addictions. I was being as precise and honest as I could possibly be while trying to take into account that she might have no idea about consciousness work. 

She made several guesses of what's going on. Things like "I feel like you're running away from the 'normal life' and you seem to have problems in normal conversations with people." And while trying to see her point, I felt that she always tried to categorize me in her mind. All guesses she made were a miss. I still tried to see the truth in what she said. In the end, she repeatedly said that it is a problem that I do 'so much drugs'. The formulation and the way she said that clearly gave me the feeling of a generalized idea of drugs in her head. 

When I left, I felt very disconnected from myself. I felt misplaced, not understood despite opening myself up completely. I was totally transparent. And I was asking myself "might she be right?". But my innermost feeling still tells me that there's just a way too big discrepancy of consciousness between her and me, as well as a lack of consciousness in the practice of therapy in general. I feel like therapy and consciousness work can only go hand in hand when the therapist him/her-self has a clear understanding of spirituality and how it transcends and interacts with classic psychological systems. Let's take the topic of psychedelics for example. I'm open to the possibility that I might use them too often. And I might take a break for integration. But from which standpoint does the therapist evaluate the situation? Just yesterday, I read the new MAPS newsletter. I'm up to date on psychedelic research. In addition, there is the first person experimentation I do myself and that of this community here. When a therapist doesn't even know the current state of research on this subject, how could she possibly assess this correctly? 

That was a very sobering experience. I don't think therapy might actually have a benefit in this work for me personally, I even feel it would rather confuse me. Yes, a transpersonal therapist who is fitting might be a possibility. But that's sadly not an option. Every talk with my best friends who are on the same path are extremely helpful in understanding myself. My best friend can tell me: "You know, you're someone who likes to start things, but you're alway skipping at some point. And you know that. You gotta pull it through and don't let yourself lose your vision." That was so helpful. This community here is helpful. Reading is helpful. Meditation, journaling, psychedelics, inquiry, contemplation, it's highly beneficial. Is psychotherapy really that valuable? I have to say I'm doubting that. I would love your opinions on this. This is of course a highly personal view.

Edited September 27, 2019 by peanutspathtotruth

[Calmness]

I do not think that you can make a conclusion after one visit to one therapist if it therapy is helpful for you or not. It is like judging LSD from taking it one time somewhere. It might help might not help.

It seems for me that this was obviously the "wrong" kind of therapist. Probably that therapist had never a client like you but rather depressed people or people with an anxiety of flying etc.. It really seems like the therapist searched for a problem that she could "fix". And for a lot of people drug addiction is a problem. She probably just thinks that psychedelics are some kind of heroin light.

If you want to try therapy again you should go to someone with spiritual knowledge.

I personally had good success with hypnose therapy and bodywork. I do not think it is for everyone and probably not everyone needs it but it can be helpful especially if you hit a wall. I would rather describe it as a catalyst that makes it easier to overcome very strong inner resistance and to overcome ego backlashes.

[d0ornokey]

I felt a similar way when doing therapy. A lot of the therapists simply have not done basic or spiritual self-development work on themselves so it was hard to ask for or get good advice on many topics. 

I still have not found the right therapist for me, but now I see that therapists can help within their framework

Like a bipolar specialist will give you useful coping tools for dealing with bipolar. But they won't have much experience with big picture, holistic medicine, consciousness work etc. 

A dating coach will help you talk to girls and give you girls strategies but I noticed that many of them lack the inner game, and proper self-esteem work 

A general therapist is probably good as a "talk therapist". If they're good, they'll hear and listen to you, and come from a non-judgemental place. Yours definitely seemed like having a a too big of a gap in understanding. Conventional therapy work is probably not something for you, you will benefit more from some kind of specialist. but now you know better what kind of therapist you need

like @Calmness mentioned, I think a more "spiritual" therapist will help you. someone familiar with the nondual path. they for sure exist. or perhaps even a therapist that has extensive experience in non-conventional psychology and have explored the more esoteric method. my therapist right now has some decent understanding of buddhism (though no direct experience), and carl jung's shadow work. she also is really good at listening, and hearing from a more non-judgemental space

she's not perfect, but she's way better than what i went to in the past  

i'm sure you can find people who can fit your needs better and also consider that one person probably won't have everything you need (my consensus so far) 

What are your needs particularly and what kind of person do you think can fulfill them? From your notes, I see you got some valuable data

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by d0ornokey

[peanutspathtotruth]

@Calmness @d0ornokey Thank you for your words!

3 minutes ago, d0ornokey said:

i'm sure you can find people who can fit your needs better

Yes I'm also sure there exist such therapists. Honestly, if I had the money, I would get a personal Diamond Approach trained person. The Diamond Approach is by far the most big picture integration of psychology and spirituality I've ever come across. But honestly, I don't have the money. What I was offered here would have been covered by my insurance. They won't pay for anything outside the conventional therapy. Maybe sometime in the future when I have the money to go to those I already know could help me.
 

5 minutes ago, d0ornokey said:

What are your needs particularly and what kind of person do you think can fulfill them? 

I would say my "need" is someone who is way deeper into the work than me, someone who has to a large extent integrated his/her shadow and who has a deep understanding and experience of non-duality. Specifically, I think that such a person would be able to assess me quite accurately and sees what I should need to focus on. As I said, if anyone I think Diamond Approach trained persons are the most appropriate. 

[Forestluv]

I had a similar experience a couple years ago. The therapist was very problem oriented. Like we need to have a problem to fix. But I was more into exploring and growing. "Problem" wasn't quite the right fit. I wanted to go deeper into self actualization and also use insights for growth. . . I then searched for "counselors" rather than therapists. I found an elderly counselor who was nearing retirement. She was an old hippy of the 1960s from California. She was very open-minded and curious. I really liked her perspective. I found out that was what I wanted. I didn't want a "fixer of problems". I wanted to explore my existence and reality with someone at an intimate level and have another perspective. . . She was concerned about my psychedelic use, yet not from the perspective that psychedelics are "bad". Rather, she was picking up on seeking energy I had with psychedelics. She knew I wasn't addicted to psychedelics and that they were useful to me - yet she sensed this seeking/chasing certain consciousness that was off-balance. . . For example, I may have spoken about deep levels of direct experience of empathy with psychedelics. She would say "That's great. How can we get that while sober?". I would speak about psychedelics as if they were my super power. As if I gained new abilities and higher level of consciousness. Yet I couldn't do it sober and didn't realize I yearned to be able to do it sober. She was the first real life person I spoke to about my psychedelic use and was the first to suggest to me I could develop those abilities and high consciousness all the time - with or without psychedelics. That was appealing to me. 

After our first session she looked at me, grinned and said "I haven't had one like you for many years. This is going to be fun.". I knew then that she was the one. She retired about 6 months later and I miss her. 

[kieranperez]

First off, I want to applaud you taking action, going out of your way to give this a shot. Good on you! I don’t say that lightly! 

Second, finding the right therapist takes time. It’s rare you land a good psychotherapist in one go. A lot of therapy is about finding that right one. In a way it’s like dating. Don’t waste time finding someone that isn’t right for you and isn’t going to understand you.

Third, you have to understand that psychotherapy doesn’t directly deal with existential truth. Think of them like mechanics. They try to get an idea of the mechanics of your mind. Of course, they can only do that through their mind, which is why it’s important to land that psychotherapist that is going to understand you as a person, because “you as a person” is the same as understanding your mind, which is why they don’t really deal with existential truth (whether they realize it or not) because they mind itself is an illusion. Psychotherapists work with helping you to help yourself create a more “integrated illusion”. I’ve personally given up trying to explain this stuff to most people and even psychotherapists (even though my psychotherapist now is a really enlightened guy who used to study with Krishnamurti) because they only try to understand this through mind. Which is fine because that’s what you’re there to work on. 

Lastly, try using a psychotherapist to help with your psychedelic integration when you realize deep stuff around your own person and psyche. Psychedelics can open you up to really horrifying stuff about your own mind that can feel so impossible to integrate on your own. That could be huge for you.

Hopefully this provides more perspective. 

Decide for yourself though what you feel is best for you. No one is in charge of you but you 

[peanutspathtotruth]

@Serotoninluv Yes exactly, this need to find a problem might be what I was sensing as not really being appropriate for me. 

43 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

After our first session she looked at me, grinned and said "I haven't had one like you for many years. This is going to be fun.". I knew then that she was the one. She retired about 6 months later and I miss her. 

That sounds like such a great match! Interesting thoughts about how you expressed your relation to psychedelics, as I see myself having this impression on other people as well  

49 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I then searched for "counselors" rather than therapists. I found an elderly counselor who was nearing retirement.

Good idea, was thinking about that as well!

@kieranperez

33 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

First off, I want to applaud you taking action, going out of your way to give this a shot. Good on you! I don’t say that lightly! 

You're the one who got me thinking, so I really thank you for that! 

34 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Second, finding the right therapist takes time. 

I see. I'm not sure yet if I'm ready to invest that time and energy - it took around two months until I finally got this session.

37 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Third, you have to understand that psychotherapy doesn’t directly deal with existential truth.

Yes that's true, I was not really expecting that to be honest. I am really looking for that integration and outside perspective. 

39 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Lastly, try using a psychotherapist to help with your psychedelic integration when you realize deep stuff around your own person and psyche. Psychedelics can open you up to really horrifying stuff about your own mind that can feel so impossible to integrate on your own. That could be huge for you.

This might be the most beneficial help I could get from psychotherapy. That's what I am actually hoping for. I tried getting into that today in the session by describing intense held back emotions coming up on an LSD trip recently. She didn't really take that seriously. I think I really want that non-judgmental person who could help me integrate the experience instead of saying "You know, drugs are bad."

Thank you so much for your feedback. I'm going to think about all this.

[Leo Gura]

Hehe, after the deep topics we cover here and with psychedelics, therapy will seem like child's play.

The only way it could work is if you find a REALLY good therapist, not the typical hack.

[Nahm]

@peanutspathtotruth I think that adventure reveals some pretty great stuff about you, that you might be missing.

 

[mandyjw]

I'm sorry to hear that it was disappointing. We are still pioneers, so I think going to psychotherapy is a total crap shoot but well worth trying. I mentioned in the past that my shadow work took me by surprise and happened channeled in the middle of the night in the journal section on this forum. Parts of it were probably irresponsible and inappropriate although at the time nothing was stopping that train.  So it's probably not a model that can be replicated, but here's what I gleaned from the experience.

I wrote out my life story, not just things that I thought were traumatic but also things that I loved my entire life and didn't really think much about. There were certain symbols that I had been attracted to. I had a barrage of insights that came with a force of energy that only allowed me to sleep in chunks of a 2 or 3 hours. My dream dissolved into LOUD insights that played through my head until I wrote them down. The key thing is that they all happened to me while I was looking from a perceptive of an outsider, hysterically laughing or crying tears of release at the absurd story of my life but at the same time with a very strong compassionate love. It was as if I was the author of my life, in fact the theme of my favorite childhood books especially Harry Potter came up quite a lot. I saw that there was no duality between my own history, or fantasy. 

I also really needed someone to listen. Not only did I highly respect this person to begin with, the feelings that arose in a mystical state went way deeper to dissolve the duality between him and me. 

 

[kieranperez]

@peanutspathtotruth 

I would say if you’re a pretty stable guy emotionally, you had a stable upraising and development, and you’re already in a good place, you could probably go on your own for the most part (so long as you know what to do, you know what to look for, etc.).

Shadow Work really helps but shadow work pretty much is pretty much spinning your wheels so long as you’re doing it on your own because the shadow is by definition the self/ego that can’t see itself. That pretty much requires another person or facilitator to help with that or having a good sangha for that that’s up to date. Not that you can’t realize your shadow on your own per say (although the deeper you go into it, the harder it is to spot because you don’t want to) but as far as integration because that is where the real work is. Realization isn’t really the hard part. Integration is. However, if you have the capacity to do it on your own (and that’s different from accepting to do it on your own because I’m speaking from a place of asking ‘do you have the capacity. Not the will) do it. 

Again, this is an individual thing but just remember to still consult people even if you do have the capacity to go it alone and act on that responsibility because you never know what you’re blind to. Martin Ball has a consultation service that is specifically for psychedelic integration. I just Skyped him on Monday and if that’s something you may be interested, you’ll be talking to someone whose done just 5-MeO-DMT alone literally well over 1000 times. I couldn’t recommend him enough.

Like I said though, it’s an individual thing. For me personally, as much as I have the will (and stubbornness) to do this all on my own, I simply can’t and have to be honest with myself that I need help and a really good in-person support system given my hard upbringing that makes this work a lot harder for me than it would most people as far as the emotional domain goes.

Trust your intution on this (not the mind nor your pride), be ruthlessly honest with yourself, and follow that. 

Way to keep taking responsibility  

[peanutspathtotruth]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hehe, after the deep topics we cover here and with psychedelics, therapy will seem like child's play.

The only way it could work is if you find a REALLY good therapist, not the typical hack.

That seems to become the main challenge if I'll decide to go that route.

@Nahm Yes, I am also open towards that. I start to get the sense that I'm missing way more than I would ever have thought. I start to see my own arrogance really, in thinking I got it all figured out. It's interesting to witness  

@mandyjw What you describe here, you wrote somewhere else in this forum and it really stuck with me since I read it. I thought about it a lot. And it's super interesting to read the additional parts about your insights. I get crazy insights in my dreams a lot lately. I really do think that I'm extremely lucky with my best friend because he knows me inside out. I get the chance to tell him everything that's on my mind once or twice a month when we meet, and he gives me really really good and honest advice. Just being able to have a listener who actually understands me is so healing in itself. We have this thing going for years, we deeply listen to each other. It deepened our relationship immensely. It's what I thought about today when I left the therapy "Actually, I had an amazing therapist by my side all along."

@kieranperez Very interesting points you make here, will have to think about all this. Also, thanks for the Martin Ball recommendation. I really like him as a character and he seems to be the #1 when it comes to talk about 5MeO for sure. I'll have a look!

15 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Trust your intution on this (not the mind nor your pride), be ruthlessly honest with yourself, and follow that. 

Way to keep taking responsibility  

Amen. I'll do my best to distinguish clearly and be honest. Thank you!  

[remember]

@peanutspathtotruth you are in berlin right? so there is a space i have on my list i wnant to visit - they also have thereapists there, i guess it`s good to maybe find an adress or get into contact with what kind of therapist might be a good one for you. having a look into what therapy could offer or just going on your own search. maybe it`s not what you are searching for but it could be leading to what you are searching for - the biggest problem of course is that you need to know where to find a good therapist. they are not specialized on that but if you ask the right questions you maybe can get some help there, it`s interesting either way. i think there are a lot of really good therapists in berlin, i even once met someone in a cafe who does therapies with a therapy dog - it was about emotional response. sometimes it doesn`t klick with the first therapist.

https://berlin.stillpointspaces.com/

Edited September 28, 2019 by remember

[Commodent]

You also have the problem that the psychiatric profession tends to attract a lot of unhealthy people.

You might want to watch this video:

 

[peanutspathtotruth]

@remember I took a look at the website, looks interesting, thank you for sharing  
@Commodent I just watched about the half of it - very eye-opening and interesting, thank you!!

[Marchino]

You are from Germany? Berlin?

Search for Skan Körpertherapie oder Skan Körperarbeit.

It's Bodywork on the Basis of Wilhelm Reich.

In truth it's not Bodywork, it is Psychotherapie using the body.

De- armoring, Freeing energy, Confronting your Neurosis, Releasing Trauma.

I did it for 5 years and it transformed my life.

It really is shadow work at it's best.

Try to find an experienced Practitioner.

Normally you have to pay by yourself. But maybe you find someone with a license for Psychotherapie who offers Skan, then the health insurence could pay for it.

 

 

[Marchino]

I have to add: this kind of therapie is not only shadow work and problem oriented.

It is very liberating.

Releasing emotions you held in your system since childhood feels soooo good!