Mark my words; Trump 2020 is a real possibility

[Bodigger]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

You are using right-wing talking points. Dems are not for "open borders". That is a hardcore republican frame. 

I don't disagree with you about hardcore republican frame but come...on....the Dems don't make any effort into the aspect of the discussion.  All I hear them saying is "We need comprehensive immigration policy". 

1 hour ago, tenta said:

It's not that simple, do you know about his proposals of shooting immigrants and how he has separated families? And also coming into the US legally should be easier

 Please......tell me about this proposal of shooting immigrants. 

Separated families huh....why is it okay to separate families for U.S. citizens when we break the law, but not for illegals crossing the border.......illegally.   The law states that minors cannot be held in jails or prisons.  Obama separated families and there was no outrage.......interesting.

1 hour ago, tenta said:

Even if the policies are far left, it doesn't mean they're wrong

I'm not saying they are wrong, I just don't agree.  I have seen very good arguments on behalf of the left, I just don't agree with many of them for different reasons.  I was very liberal when I was young, and as I think more about my political associations, I sway to the right.  I could go on about why but this is not really part of the discussion.

[whoareyou]

9 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Trump lost the popular vote by a large margin: 3 million votes. To suggest he was more popular in the 2016 is inaccurate and misleading. He was an unpopular with the people and was able to win with a minority of votes through a biased electoral system. 

Why does it matter if he lost the popular vote? The US presidential election is not decided by the popular vote.

He won in states that mattered - and it wasn't by luck, he actually worked his ass off for it.

I don't think before 2016 you and others called it "biased electoral system". But now, of course you call it biased, when it doesn't fit your narrative.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, whoareyou said:

Why does it matter if he lost the popular vote? The US presidential election is not decided by the popular vote.

He won in states that mattered - and it wasn't by luck, he actually worked his ass off for it.

I don't think before 2016 you and others called it "biased electoral system". But now, of course you call it biased, when it doesn't fit your narrative.

I'm not questioning the validity of the win. I am questioning the underlying assumption of popularity. Quite often people speak in terms of popularity as if Trump was the most popular candidate in the 2016 election. Trump was not the most popular candidate, he was the second most popular candidate.

The electoral system is clearly biased. It is not a left vs. right thing or my narrative or your narrative. A voter in California is weighed less than a voter in Wyoming. That is a bias. We could have a discussion of whether the bias is justified, yet it is still a bias. There are times when biases have practical value. . . The electoral college has been biased since it's inception. People started getting upset with the inherent bias of the electoral college with Bush vs. Gore, when Gore won the popular vote and Bush won the electoral contest. Of course people weren't upset before then. If the electoral result is aligned with the popular vote, there is no issue. It is when the two are uncoupled that there is an issue. 

[whoareyou]

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I'm not questioning the validity of the win. I am questioning the underlying assumption of popularity. Quite often people speak in terms of popularity as if Trump was the most popular candidate in the 2016 election. Trump was not the most popular candidate, he was the second most popular candidate.

The electoral system is clearly biased. It is not a left vs. right thing or my narrative or your narrative. A voter in California is weighed less than a voter in Wyoming. That is a bias. We could have a discussion of whether the bias is justified, yet it is still a bias. There are times when biases have practical value. . . The electoral college has been biased since it's inception. People started getting upset with the inherent bias of the electoral college with Bush vs. Gore, when Gore won the popular vote and Bush won the electoral contest. Of course people weren't upset before then. If the electoral result is aligned with the popular vote, there is no issue. It is when the two are uncoupled that there is an issue. 

It is not the reason why he won though, as many people like to think. He actually worked his ass of in the states in which the other candidate didn't bother to put as much effort in.

If you want to change the system, that is fine, but once the rules are there  - there is no reason to blame the rules of the game to which you agreed to play by.

I agree that the electoral system is not the most optimal. But if people are that upset by it or think it's "unfair", they should work on changing it or not partake in the election at all.

Hillary, instead of admitting her mistakes and shortcomings - blamed everything else but herself in her book "What Happened". 

The attitude of the left is a huge turn off for me in general - instead of making excuses, they should actually work on their mistakes and create a more attractive offer to people. So far they haven't done any of that.

[Forestluv]

@whoareyou I don't disagree with you. I also don't resonate with establishment/corporate dems and I'm highly critical of them. The same establishment dems that lost in 2016 want to go with Hilary 2.0 (Joe Biden). As you say, they haven't learned their mistake. . . Trump resonated with a lot of people and he did work hard. I live in Michigan and saw it first hand. This was a blue state for federal elections. Hilary took Michigan for granted and didn't even visit as we approached the election. Yet Trump did. He came here, worked hard and resonated with a lot of people sick of politics as usual - and Hilary represented politics as usual. Whenever I asked a Trump supporter why they liked Trump, they responded: "He speaks his mind", "He is the only one who says what people are thinking", "He isn't a politician". In their eyes, this gave him immunity to all his inappropriate behavior. 

I'm just pointing out that Trump does not have a large base of support. He has a very passionate base of minority support. He has never had majority support. He hasn't even had a plurality of support. I doubt he wins the popular vote in 2020. He will need to strategically work the electoral college to his advantage. That's how the current system is and part of the game. 

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, d0ornokey said:

this is precisely why I didnt vote

Of course it's important not to get complacent. Vote regardless of what you think the odds are.

I think people will be super-excited to vote in 2020. More than ever. I know I am.

Trump's biggest gift to our democracy will be to rouse people from their complacency about voting and following the news. Trumpism will lead to a whole generation of young people eager for bold progressive ideas. Republicans are going to turn off a whole generation of young people with their foolish support of Trump. They will be suffering the cost of that in the decades to come.

Trump reveals the Republican's true colors. Which is a great thing. People like Mitt Romny & the Bushes have put too much lipstick on that pig. Now everyone sees the pig underneath the lipstick.

Trump waltzed in the White House and basically just said, "Let's be shameless pigs." And most of the Republicans said, "Okay, I guess. We were sorta doing that anyway. But can't we put some lipstick on it? Without the lipstick it's too ugly to look at."

[Thewritersunion]

@Leo Gura lol

they literally flex about being corrupt 

[whoareyou]

@Serotoninluv

~40% is still a lot of people. If you want to say less than half, that is fine, but you are making it sound like it's a tiny fraction.

In my opinion, passionate but smaller base is far more valuable than large support base. Those people are willing to stick with him no matter what, vs a large support base that can switch sides at any point. The same principle applies in business - retaining existing customers who would be willing to continue to come back many times are far more valuable than 1 timers.

Edited October 18, 2019 by whoareyou

[tenta]

On 10/17/2019 at 10:05 PM, Bodigger said:

Deregulation - Tell me, which one of Trump's deregulatory bills bothers you the most?

On 10/18/2019 at 0:21 AM, Bodigger said:

I don't disagree with you about hardcore republican frame but come...on....the Dems don't make any effort into the aspect of the discussion.  All I hear them saying is "We need comprehensive immigration policy". 

 Please......tell me about this proposal of shooting immigrants. 

Separated families huh....why is it okay to separate families for U.S. citizens when we break the law, but not for illegals crossing the border.......illegally.   The law states that minors cannot be held in jails or prisons.  Obama separated families and there was no outrage.......interesting.

I'm not saying they are wrong, I just don't agree.  I have seen very good arguments on behalf of the left, I just don't agree with many of them for different reasons.  I was very liberal when I was young, and as I think more about my political associations, I sway to the right.  I could go on about

why but this is not really part of the discussion.

I don't agree with Obama doing that, but again why vote trump? Why is he better than the democrat candidates in 2020? Why do you think that trump is right on global warming despite science saying otherwise clearly?

Amazon paid nothing in taxes last year, trump doesn't have a problem with that  (hardworking people having their fruits fueling the greed of large companies

https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/djp433/this_is_what_they_call_capitalism/

[Bodigger]

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 2:52 AM, tenta said:

I don't agree with Obama doing that, but again why vote trump? Why is he better than the democrat candidates in 2020?

It is disingenuous to point at situations handled by Trump in which you disagree when Obama has done similar.  Trump is upholding the law and the Dems are mocking him for it without ideas.  The Dems are also refusing to give the Trump administration any funding to deal with the border crisis.  the Dems are giving them drivers license's, Schooling, and health care, for doing nothing more than illegally crossing the border.  Do you think this will help the situation on the border?  I think it will make things worse.

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 2:52 AM, tenta said:

Why do you think that trump is right on global warming despite science saying otherwise clearly?

Trump was voted in to manage a country.  I don't think he doesn't care about the environment.  I deal with State and Federal agencies in environmental erosion control and I have not witnessed any changes in environmental regulation.  We need to have balance when dealing with climate change.  I think about this way; say we spend trillions of dollars attempting to overcome climate change and we do go into a lot more debt.  China and India, does nothing about climate change and figures out a way to bore underneath our country and gets all of the oil.  Well, we are then likely to be owned by China due to the debt we have accumulated, the oil is now being used elsewhere, and we a broken country.

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 2:52 AM, tenta said:

Amazon paid nothing in taxes last year, trump doesn't have a problem with that  (hardworking people having their fruits fueling the greed of large companies

Without getting too lengthy they were allowed a tax credit and when the new corporate tax law's were administered, companies were able to go back two years for this.  Why does this bother you, Amazon employ's over a half million people.  What should Amazon do with there profits, give it back to the people, or expand and hire more people?  I prefer buying products from brick and mortar stores where I get to know the people.

[SerpaeTetra]

The #1 reason I don't want Trump to be re-elected is the amount of laws and policies that are anti-LGBTQ he and his administration have passed.  I have a few family members who were effected by these measures and its sad to see our country moving backwards in these regards.  https://www.glaad.org/tap/donald-trump  

 

[SerpaeTetra]

7 hours ago, Bodigger said:

It is disingenuous to point at situations handled by Trump in which you disagree when Obama has done similar.  Trump is upholding the law and the Dems are mocking him for it without ideas.  The Dems are also refusing to give the Trump administration any funding to deal with the border crisis.  the Dems are giving them drivers license's, Schooling, and health care, for doing nothing more than illegally crossing the border.  Do you think this will help the situation on the border?  I think it will make things worse.

Trump was voted in to manage a country.  I don't think he doesn't care about the environment.  I deal with State and Federal agencies in environmental erosion control and I have not witnessed any changes in environmental regulation.  We need to have balance when dealing with climate change.  I think about this way; say we spend trillions of dollars attempting to overcome climate change and we do go into a lot more debt.  China and India, does nothing about climate change and figures out a way to bore underneath our country and gets all of the oil.  Well, we are then likely to be owned by China due to the debt we have accumulated, the oil is now being used elsewhere, and we a broken country.

Without getting too lengthy they were allowed a tax credit and when the new corporate tax law's were administered, companies were able to go back two years for this.  Why does this bother you, Amazon employ's over a half million people.  What should Amazon do with there profits, give it back to the people, or expand and hire more people?  I prefer buying products from brick and mortar stores where I get to know the people.

Actually, most illegal immigrants work their ass off when they cross the border for close to minimum wage, so that they can send it back home.  I witnessed this first hand many times as I'm sure many others can say the same.  Illegally crossing the border was often viewed as a petty crime, which we turned a blind eye too because it served both parties in some fashion.  What did you do to deserve getting free health care and schooling as a child?  And as an adult, if you had a disability, what did you do to deserve the free benefits you received?  

[Bodigger]

14 hours ago, SerpaeTetra said:

The #1 reason I don't want Trump to be re-elected is the amount of laws and policies that are anti-LGBTQ he and his administration have passed.  I have a few family members who were effected by these measures and its sad to see our country moving backwards in these regards.  https://www.glaad.org/tap/donald-trump  

Okay, so let's go with the first one;

The Trump Administration announced its support of allowing faith-based schools to use religion as a so-called "right to discriminate" against LGBTQ teachers and staff and removing pro-LGBTQ curriculum in classrooms. 

This is for faith-based people who want there children to be taught in a faith-based manner.  Trump, and the Constitution are protecting people for there religious beliefs.  To do otherwise is going against the Constitution.  For example; we can't force someone to hire me as a female dancer even though I am a male.  Nobody is forced into a religion, but it is necessary to respect the rites of people and there beliefs. 

[Bodigger]

11 hours ago, SerpaeTetra said:

Actually, most illegal immigrants work their ass off when they cross the border for close to minimum wage, so that they can send it back home.  I witnessed this first hand many times as I'm sure many others can say the same.  Illegally crossing the border was often viewed as a petty crime, which we turned a blind eye too because it served both parties in some fashion.  What did you do to deserve getting free health care and schooling as a child?  And as an adult, if you had a disability, what did you do to deserve the free benefits you received?  

This illustrates one of the reasons I disagree with the Dems.  They bring nothing to the table because as Americans, we don't deserve anything because we are privileged, so.....if we have something that other people want, they deserve it as well.  There is a legal way to enter the country and millions of people do so every year.  The people who cross the border illegally are holding things up for the others because they are going through the same bureaucratic red tape.  The Illegals are sending money back home so there remaining friends and family members can illegally cross the border as well.  Do you see the cycle happening.  It is chaotic to continue this, and this is what the Dems want.  I want orderly immigration and from what I can tell, this is what Trump wants as well.  After all, his wife is an immigrant.  

[tenta]

19 hours ago, Bodigger said:

It is disingenuous to point at situations handled by Trump in which you disagree when Obama has done similar. 

I never said Obama is perfect

 

20 hours ago, Bodigger said:

Trump is upholding the law and the Dems are mocking him for it without ideas. 

No he isn't, there is already more than enough evidence for impeachment since it's illegal to withold money from a country until they smear your political opponent, doing this just to get an advantage int he race

"for doing nothing more than illegally crossing the border.  Do you think this will help the situation on the border?  I think it will make things worse."

So because of the one reason, that they're giving people free stuff for joining the US instead of putting them into concentration camps, Trump is better? What are your solid pro-Trump arguments and reasons you want him as president?

Having some more resources to compete with china and india isn't worth ruining the planet, and Trump himself isn't giving reasons not to combat climate change, just nonsense or deflections, when the US defense force admits the biggest threat to the US is global warming

20 hours ago, Bodigger said:

when the new corporate tax law's were administered, companies were able to go back two years for this.  Why does this bother you, Amazon employ's over a half million people.  What should Amazon do with there profits, give it back to the people, or expand and hire more people?  I prefer buying products from brick and mortar stores where I get to know the people.

Okay so, why should you pay taxes but not amazon? Yes they hire people, who they'd pay a garbage amount while making them piss in bottles, but they pay them more now because of regulation, you're agreeing with Trump's deregulation so again why should you pay taxes and amazon shouldn't?

[Bodigger]

51 minutes ago, tenta said:

I never said Obama is perfect

So because of the one reason, that they're giving people free stuff for joining the US instead of putting them into concentration camps

No you didn't, but the topic came up and I shared my thoughts on it.  I also think we should be careful about the use of the word concentration camps.  I am sure there are many people on this forum who take offense to floating this statement out so casually, and it is not truthful.

56 minutes ago, tenta said:

No he isn't, there is already more than enough evidence for impeachment since it's illegal to withold money from a country until they smear your political opponent, doing this just to get an advantage int he race

Then impeach him.  Why is it taking so long, and why are the so called hearings being held in secret?

59 minutes ago, tenta said:

Having some more resources to compete with china and india isn't worth ruining the planet, and Trump himself isn't giving reasons not to combat climate change, just nonsense or deflections, when the US defense force admits the biggest threat to the US is global warming

When I play the tape forward, I find that countries like China will do what ever it takes to survive.  It will not do the U.S. any good to spend money that we do not have so China can take control.  For now, lets do what we can, and be an example.

1 hour ago, tenta said:

Okay so, why should you pay taxes but not amazon? Yes they hire people, who they'd pay a garbage amount while making them piss in bottles, but they pay them more now because of regulation, you're agreeing with Trump's deregulation so again why should you pay taxes and amazon shouldn't?

I am not covering for Amazon.  They played by the rules of the tax code.  They also paid billions in taxes, just not income.  They also expanded and hired on 50,000 employees in the past year.  Amazon is also headquartered in Luxembourg so I am intrigued to know if this has something to do with not paying income taxes.

[SerpaeTetra]

3 hours ago, Bodigger said:

Okay, so let's go with the first one;

The Trump Administration announced its support of allowing faith-based schools to use religion as a so-called "right to discriminate" against LGBTQ teachers and staff and removing pro-LGBTQ curriculum in classrooms. 

This is for faith-based people who want there children to be taught in a faith-based manner.  Trump, and the Constitution are protecting people for there religious beliefs.  To do otherwise is going against the Constitution.  For example; we can't force someone to hire me as a female dancer even though I am a male.  Nobody is forced into a religion, but it is necessary to respect the rites of people and there beliefs. 

So if a religion discriminated against black people and their schools didn't hire them, would that be any different?  

[Bodigger]

12 minutes ago, SerpaeTetra said:

So if a religion discriminated against black people and their schools didn't hire them, would that be any different?  

I think it is different when it comes to the law.  Discrimination is legal, just not for certain things such as; sex, religion, race, or age.

 

[Bodigger]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 7:48 PM, SerpaeTetra said:

The #1 reason I don't want Trump to be re-elected is the amount of laws and policies that are anti-LGBTQ he and his administration have passed.  I have a few family members who were effected by these measures and its sad to see our country moving backwards in these regards.  https://www.glaad.org/tap/donald-trump  

Number 2;

CNN reports that the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) sent a letter to members of the Ames City Council asking the city remove pro-LGBTQ themed crosswalks in the community, citing so-called "federal traffic control standards." 

My work is in road construction and the FHWA is accurate in there letter for Federal Highway Standards.  I am all for the Feds staying out of Municipal and State involvements however, if funding is coming from the Feds, Municipal and State governments are compelled to the Federal Standards.  IMO it is the correct decision due to the paint on roads can become very slippery when wet.

[Forestluv]

52 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

I am all for the Feds staying out of Municipal and State involvements however, if funding is coming from the Feds, Municipal and State governments are compelled to the Federal Standards.  IMO it is the correct decision due to the paint on roads can become very slippery when wet.

In terms of increasing inclusiveness and equality there is an interplay between state effort and federal effort. For example, states where the driving force in the inclusion of inter-racial and same-sex marriage. One by one, individual states voted to allow inter-racial and same-sex marriage.  After enough states did so, a threshold hold was reached that triggered the federal government to step in a legalize inter-racial and same-sex marriage. This was a big step because about half the states still banned inter-racial / same-sex marriage and would have continued to do so for decades. There are southern states that certainly would still have bans on same-sex marriage without federal intervention. So it was an interplay between states initiating the movement and then feds putting it in over the top.

Sometimes, it is necessary for the federal level to enter earlier and provide assistance. An example would be de-segregation. Several municipalities/states were trying to implement de-segregation - such as busing. Yet they did not have the resources to pull it off successfully. The strength of the federal government was necessary to allow de-segregation progress. . . A conservative tactic to resist such progress is the "State Rights" argument. Segregationists used this argument alot - not through a genuine desire for state autonomy - yet for a disingenuous desire to resist de-segregation. It is very context dependent. 

Regarding LGBTQ inclusion and equality: of course we don't want to promote inclusion/inequality in a way that puts people's health at risk. If road paint increases the risks of accidents, it shouldn't be allowed for any cause. We should be promoting LGBTQ inclusion and equality in a safe manner.