Ralston on Confusing States for Consciousness

[kieranperez]

I want to preface this by mentioning that MANY masters are known for acting (and that is a keyword... keep in mind, he’s acting to get something across) like this and being much MUCH more brutal and real to get points across. Zen masters for example are known for playing the theatric of being extremely brutal and harsh to shock you deep enough to get you to drop fantasies, acts, games one may be playing, etc. 

I bring this up because I see time and time and time and time and time again on here, people who project fantasies of what they think enlightened people SHOULD be like in their minds. Truly free  “people” no longer operate or play under that distinction. 

I also want to mention regarding the video that I’ve enquirer many many many people who have studied under Ralston for more than a decade and even 2 why he doesn’t talk about states, if he knows these different stated. Ralston knows such states VERY well. Why does he dismiss them? They aren’t the Truth and if it’s not the Truth than it has no place in what he’s teaching, which is the pursuit of Truth. For me, I’ve had many astral projections, experences of being one with all things, deep sleep samadhi states, siddhi/paranormal experiences, etc. time and time and time again I run into the same thing “it was just another experience. It may be a very unsual and different one, but still just experience. This is not the Truth. This is merely a function of mind. Not truth.” 

I’ve met and have friends now whom are deeply enlightened and have taken psychedelics like 5-MeO-DMT for example AFTER their own enlightenment and it’s the same answer every time “it’s a cosmic state of ignorance. This isn’t enlightenment.” That speaks WAY more than people taking substances and experiences crazy states whom aren’t enlightened and never even had enlightenment experiences thinking that they now know what they’re talking about. This isn’t to say psychedelics are not helpful for human stuff like healing, emotional work, psychological work, getting past certain issues. 

I thought I’d preface that before sharing. 

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by kieranperez

[ajasatya]

@kieranperez Good call. Keep it up! You're onto something

[DrewNows]

I love it! 

“Go stub your toe!” ?

“Endless states!”

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, kieranperez said:

I’ve met and have friends now whom are deeply enlightened and have taken psychedelics like 5-MeO-DMT for example AFTER their own enlightenment and it’s the same answer every time “it’s a cosmic state of ignorance. This isn’t enlightenment.” That speaks WAY more than people taking substances and experiences crazy states whom aren’t enlightened and never even had enlightenment experiences thinking that they now know what they’re talking about. This isn’t to say psychedelics are not helpful for human stuff like healing, emotional work, psychological work, getting past certain issues. 

You're not quite understanding how psychedelics work.

There is nothing but states of consciousness. So you cannot escape states of consciousness since consciousness is the only thing that exists. There are just many different states and then there is understanding of how consciousness works.

The point of a psychedelic is not to put you into a crazy state of consciousness per se. It's to reveal how consciousness works.

The practical reality is that your state very much affects what you're able to become conscious of. If you're stuck in a bad state, you're basically fucked. You will not be capable of doing what Ralston says. In fact, basically no one is capable of doing the stuff Ralston says because their state is inadequate.

The point of meditation and yoga is to permanently up your state so you have a reasonable chance of doing what Ralston takes for granted you can do.

Although enlightenment is not directly limited to a state, one's state is really important for success in this work.

Good luck getting enlightened while you're in some PTSD state, depressed state, or opioid addicted state.

States run your whole life. So dismiss states at your own peril.

[kieranperez]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That practical reality is that your state very much affects what you're able to become conscious of. If you're stuck in a bad state, you're basically fucked. You will not be capable of doing what Ralston says. In fact, basically no one is capable of doing the stuff Ralston says.

I’m asking this genuinely - I’ve met several enlightened people and some of whom are facilitators as teachers or in workshop setting and I’ve asked them on this matter as I know this isn’t the first time you’ve said this. I’ve gotten the same response based on the people they’ve facilitated (not that enlightenment is the result of their facilitation): “you can be totally pissed off and/or lost in thoughts. None of that matters. I’ve seen people be totally depressed and then have their enlightenment experience. I’ve seen people lost in their minds and it still happens.”

Again, I’m asking genuinely trying to get your point of view as clear as possible. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by kieranperez

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

“you can be totally pissed off and/or lost in thoughts. None of that matters. I’ve seen people be totally depressed and then have their enlightenment experience. I’ve seen people lost in their minds and it still happens.”

Well of course that can happen. As Ralston said, you can get enlightened while falling in a bathtub.

A lot of random shit can happen. If you facilitate 1000 students some of them will accidentally get enlightened by picking their nose. But that's a red herring. That doesn't mean you should bank on "picking your nose" to enlighten you.

Not all spiritual techniques are of equal efficacy. Some are really really ineffective. So my point is, find what is most effective for you.

Psychedelics are unique is that they are exceptionally effective. Same for meditation & yoga.

Watching cartoons is not effective. Although even that could work once in a billion people.

Ralston is also wrong. It is possible to invent a method for enlightenment (at least a temporary one). And 5-MeO-DMT is it.

To call 5-MeO-DMT a mere change in state is very very misleading. Make sure you do it before you say such things. And it's not good enough to toy around with it. You gotta seriously do it. You gotta hit a breakthrough. I'm tried of people talking about 5-MeO who have not had a breakthrough. Trying a psychedelic don't mean shit. You gotta have that breakthrough. Lots of people have tried meditation but that doesn't mean anything. Trying it is not good enough. You must actualize its full potential. And that requires some serious effort, not a casual experiment.

Keep in mind there are some people on whom 5-MeO-DMT seems to have no to little effect due to their genetics or whatever. So their dud experiments don't count.

Ralston's teachings are very advanced and most of you will simply not be able to actualize what he is talking about. So watch out. There is good reason why spiritual techniques were invented. Most people need them.

[kieranperez]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well of course that can happen. As Ralston said, you can get enlightened while falling in a bathtub.

A lot of random shit can happen. If you fascilate 1000 students some of them will accidentally get enlightened by picking their nose. But that's a red herring. That doesn't mean you should bank on "picking your nose" to enlighten you.

This is the point that I tend to bring up but in the end I get the same response which is that state is irrelevant as shown to them by the work they’ve done facilitating others. I tend to rebuttal by saying something among the lines of “yeah, the Truth is the Truth independent of the state I’m in but surely it helps to be able to get into a highly concentrated state in order to contemplate.” And I get the same response back “sure. It can help so long as you actually get enlightened. It’s not at all necessary though.” 

Where the line has drawn for me is when I notice for example in my enlightenment experiences I notice how irrelevant my state is or was because the Truth just is. Plus when I look at most people who trip or even get into “deep states” independent of substances, i notice just how much they invent a whole story around the experience itself. Not that this is any fault on your end but when I see people on here who get into some little state or have a “cosmic God” experience, I see just how much their inventing a narrative around it using your language (again that’s not any fault on you but I’m pointing out a pattern). Although I can understand and empathize how much the mind wants to invent stories and dramas around psychic, siddhi, or grand cosmic onesness experiences, I still must be honest at least with myself that it’s just mere entertainment. It’s not freedom and it isn’t the truth, no matter how much I may want to make myself feel special or narratives about how I think I know how it all works now.

However, I can see where you’re coming from and I still intend to test it. I’m not saying I’m closed to psychedelics now. I’m currently in the process of buying 5-MeO for this reason. You make a fair point on the breakthrough and that if people are going to make a firm ciritique on it as far as the domain of enlightenment goes, at least get a full breakthrough. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by kieranperez

[lmfao]

Good video. Ralston talking gets me absorbed into what he's saying for some reason. I watched this one just now, loved it as well. 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

And I get the same response back “sure. It can help so long as you actually get enlightened. It’s not at all necessary though.” 

That's technically true. But it's highly misleading.

When I applied to CalTech by in my high school days I called them to ask what GPA I need to get in. They told me, "We have no GPA requirement." That's technically true. You can apply with a 3.5 GPA. But if your GPA is below 4.0, you ain't getting in. So be careful about kidding yourself.

There are definitely things you can do to increase your odds of enlightenment. If this wasn't true, your teachers would be out of a job. Ralston holds enlightenment workshops. Obviously because he believes this increases your odds of enlightenment.

Quote

Plus when I look at most people who trip or even get into “deep states” independent of substances, i notice just how much they invent a whole story around the experience itself.

So what? A little story ain't gonna kill ya.

Quote

Not that this is any fault on your end but when I see people on here who get into some little state or have a “cosmic God” experience, I see just how much their inventing a narrative around it using your language (again that’s not any fault on you but I’m pointing out a pattern). Although I can understand and empathize how much the mind wants to invent stories and dramas around psychic, siddhi, or grand cosmic onesness experiences, I still must be honest at least with myself that it’s just mere entertainment.

Language has it's value too.

Such things are not mere entertainment. They are part of this work.

Be careful about holding language as contradictory to Truth or awakening. Awakening can infuse itself into language. Some great spiritual texts have been written and channeled. And they ain't just stories and BS. There is serious truth and wisdom in them.

For example, it is possible to communicate directly with God. Of course this will involve language.

Language can be problematic when misused. But language should also not be dismissed entirely. Language is an amazing tool. You just have to be aware of its limits.

Quote

It’s not freedom and it isn’t the truth, no matter how much I may want to make myself feel special or narratives about how I think I know how it all works now.

Everything is Truth. There's noting but Truth.

[Truth Addict]

Your enlightened friends are pointing you to the now. They're telling you to stop chasing enlightenment, because it's already the case.

[kieranperez]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Everything is Truth. There's noting but Truth.

I was not clear enough when I wrote that part you quoted. To be more specific, those experiences are never truth realization. I hate to use another Ralston example but it’s just such a clear example illustrate my point... he had one talk where he was talking about the nature of space and how one can have experience of seemingly infinite space but that alone doesn’t provide a direct consciousness into the true nature of space. Only when one becomes directly conscious that space doesn’t exist is that an enlightenment into the Absolute nature of objective reality and it’s nonexistent nature. 

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

So what? A little story ain't gonna kill ya.

To be more specific, using stories to create a cosmology around an experience that wasn’t actually say one of truth realization. Example: having an out of body experience and then creating a whole story about how you now know the nature of consciousness, enlightenment, reality, etc. To be succinct, it’s where the “knowledge”, as if, came. It’s the difference between if I met the real Leo Gura in Las Vegas and hung out with him for say 2 years and got to know you from you vs. just inventing an entire narrative only from watching your videos. Of course, in this example, my encounter with you in person would still be interpreted through mind, that is still nonetheless a nore genuine understanding interpreted via mind based on a direct experience of the matter rather than just fabricating something purely and solely from mind. 

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Such things are not mere entertainment. They are part of this work.

Be careful about hold language as contradictory to Truth or awakening. Awakening can infuse itself into language. Some great spiritual texts have been written and channeled. And they ain't just stories and BS. There is serious truth and wisdom in them.

Fair point 

Edited September 26, 2019 by kieranperez

[Leo Gura]

There's not really much to discuss here. Try various techniques and discover what works best for you.

And just keep an open mind that what works best for you will not necessarily work best for others. People's minds work in very different ways.

[zeroISinfinity]

5 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Your enlightened friends are pointing you to the now. They're telling you to stop chasing enlightenment, because it's already the case.

Yes and no. 

Meditation is the way. Takes years of it until You finally "breakthrough". 

Have you ever experienced yourself as Absolute. No, so keep with practises. 

You do not really know What THIS IS. Don't BS yourself. 

[bazera]

@Leo Gura As I remember, you once asked Ralston to take 5meo. Did he tell you the same thing? that there can be no way?

There must be the reason for why does he think like that. What do you think is the reason? Just lack of experience and closed-mindedness? 

[Scholar]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There's not really much to discuss here. Try various techniques and discover what works best for you.

And just keep an open mind that what works best for you will not necessarily work best for others. People's minds work in very different ways.

Are you agreeing with Ralston here? To me it seems like a dumb take, especially when one day we will most likely just plug in and be insta-"enlightened".

It seems to me like Ralston has created a duality between world and mind, action and awareness, which is simply not there. Isn't enlightenment just a specific Isness?

[Truth Addict]

1 hour ago, zeroISinfinity said:

You do not really know What THIS IS.

I know that I don't know. Bullshitting oneself is to think that you know.

[Nahm]

@kieranperez Deep in there man, nice! Feel like you’re bout to POP lol. ??♥️

[zeroISinfinity]

21 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

I know that I don't know. Bullshitting oneself is to think that you know.

So, practises. 

Don't fall for I do not have to meditate because I am already enlightened. 

Yes I do know, that's why I am helping You out. 

[Truth Addict]

Just now, zeroISinfinity said:

Yes I do know, that's why I am helping You out. 

What do you know?

[zeroISinfinity]

@Truth Addict Everything and I know YOU so WELL. 

Your intention to argue with THIS is Good sign to continue with practises. 

All the Best.