Radical honesty is pissing off a lot of people where I work

[flowboy]

36 minutes ago, JustThinkingAloud said:

You actually let others influence your actions even if it’s the opposite of what they want you to do. You still do something because other people said something, you don’t do it because it’s your choice to do it.

Very on point, yes! I don't want to be reactive!

I suppose going against the group think 'just cause' doesn't really align with my goals...

38 minutes ago, JustThinkingAloud said:

Now, I realized that I have to choose between honesty and good relationships with others. What is more important to you? When I don’t like someone and want to annoy them, I love being “brutally honest”. When I like someone or need them, I sugar coat the truth when they benefit from it and when they don’t benefit from the truth then I shut up. I like them and respect them so I don’t what to upset them for no reason. Nobody likes to be wrong.

Very insightful, thank you. I suppose I don't want to upset people for no reason either.

Does that mean I want to be forced to do things that I don't agree with, without debate? I don't know yet... I suppose if it doesn't matter much, I could let something go, to be considerate of people's group hypnosis...

That would be going in a different direction than I've been going for most of my life, for sure

But I do hate it when a group is convinced of something that is inaccurate. I can never pretend to agree, if it's something I feel strongly about.

I think it's really weak when people do that.

Hmm, internal struggle

[flowboy]

15 hours ago, tsuki said:

You cannot go around humiliating people that have the potential to stomp you. You have to be smarter than that.

Aaargh that feels so true!!!

Yet that's what I'm inclined to do. I did it to teachers in school.

I fought people in the street who were bigger than me AND outnumbered me. Got badly beaten.

And apparently I will also challenge my entire body of coworkers on whatever.

Things that make you go hmmm...

 

I suppose I'm not willing to accept that I have to compromise out of fear. That I would have to watch my step because of someone higher up in the dominance hierarchy. And so I just rebel, and in some moments I really take crazy risks and would rather end up dead than admit that I have to please someone because they're stronger. I reject that whole paradigm.

I would not last long in prison, clearly

Perhaps I'm like one of those dogs, that you have to kick really hard every year, or they stop behaving

Edited September 25, 2019 by flowboy

[tsuki]

4 minutes ago, flowboy said:

I fought people in the street who were bigger than me AND outnumbered me. Got badly beaten.

Why the urge to challenge them? What do you feel before the fights and afterwards after you've been beaten?

In my case, the urge to fight feels like a self-winding spiral.
The more hurt I am, the more I want to argue. The more I argue, the more I hurt others.
On the surface, I am presenting them with razor-sharp arguments that touch the core of the issue.
On a deeper level, the core of the issue is usually that people don't want to look past their wounds and insecurities.

Have you ever caught yourself fantasizing about physically hurting others?

[flowboy]

22 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Why the urge to challenge them?

Because the entire idea that they could be stronger than me and force me or take away my freedom in any way is so repulsive to me, that I just have to fight it. Deep down I reject the idea of anyone having dominance over me at all.

It could be that I'm actually fighting my dad's fight. He was traumatized by severe bullying by his stronger and older brothers when he was young, and he still eminates this pain every day, so it must have influenced me.

22 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Have you ever caught yourself fantasizing about physically hurting others?

Not often, but when someone close to me is being threatened, or I just feel very wronged by a particular person, I tend to fantasize about murdering them. Examples are when my roommate lady had a psychopath stalker who kept trying to get into the house uninvited. Or when my dad's neighbour was trying to destroy his business out of spite. Or when my dad's other neighbour beat him up.

Edited September 25, 2019 by flowboy

[flowboy]

29 minutes ago, tsuki said:

What do you feel before the fights and afterwards after you've been beaten?

So this only happened once. Afterwards I remember feeling proud that I didn't back down, and angry that I wasn't stronger. A strong sense that it is unfair that I am not born super strong and invincible. But sort of proud that I did something.

I remember that the cops called me, and asked if I needed any counseling, because I was a victim of violence. I got angry an yelled that I was not a victim, I chose this fight and I was proud of it.

[tsuki]

2 minutes ago, flowboy said:

Because the entire idea that they could be stronger than me and force me or take away my freedom in any way is so repulsive to me, that I just have to fight it. Deep down I reject the idea of anyone having dominance over me at all.

How does this video make you feel?

[flowboy]

@tsuki  Listening right now The first sentences already really hit home. "Authority wasn't there when I needed it, so I created my own rules. The rules don't apply to me" Yes, yes. I mean, I'm not sure that that's me exactly, but it sure sounds great

Edited September 25, 2019 by flowboy

[Harikrishnan]

Wow some great replies. Am learning a lot here. I was always smooth with my work envirnoment. Even  in school i used to speak to teachers face without any regret  but was always in there good books, i think what helped me was being sarcastic, and talk with  a pleasent face, i could sense how opposite being from the energy and when they get little agitated or pissed with my facts i could easily change tone of voice and act or speak funny. It will change the whole vibe. They could never understand whether am speaking seriously or not. But at same time it will make them think. I have used this tactics to get many things like people doing my assigned job to getting leave here and there with pay. (People putting in my sign in attendance register). There also comes a problem with my stratergy i get sometime on people pleasing teritory also. Apart from that it was always good for me.

Social skill is a important tool, it helps you more than your intellectual or being right always skill, in navigating through life. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Harikrishnan

[Harikrishnan]

Lately i have found a method from art of manipulation whenever a talk moves to an argument with a friend or co worker i would say maybe you are right. Suddenly the whole place vibe changes,  its really fun u may even get a free coffee.  And trust me its way better than keep on arguing and wasting energy and moving to negative spiral.

[Commodent]

2 hours ago, flowboy said:

Does that mean I want to be forced to do things that I don't agree with, without debate?

I feel that this sentence is quite significant. I want you to meditate on what it means to be "forced" to do something, and how "not agreeing" with something could potentially be serving as a defense mechanism rooted in the fear of being controlled. Notice how even my previous sentence might trigger you, due to me urging you to do something. If you do what I say, have I then forced you? It might be a bit different since we are not very close and there is thus very little ego involved, but if I had been a co-worker or a spouse?

My flatmate always has all kinds of justifications for not doing what other people wants him to do (he's the landlord so he has certain responsibilities). But the thing is, his justifications are usually very self-absorbed and completely void of consideration for other people, and it's very obvious that he's acting out of a fear of being controlled. And that kind of behavior motivates people to actually try and control him, because he's being consistently contrarian and selfish, which breeds resentment. Which, to him, perpetuates the belief that everybody is trying to control him. In many ways you seem quite different from him, but it might be a similarity to have in mind.

The premises of the question I quoted very much seems like a form of re-traumatization. A self-fulfilling prophecy. And the best way to deal with self-fulfilling prophecies is generally to make the issue a non-issue. Because it likely really is. That is, a problem you have created in your mind in order to perpetuate the cycle of re-traumatization. I can honestly say I lost many good years of my life to believing I had a problem which I really didn't have. All that time I was working so hard to find a solution, until I realized it was really me believing there was a problem that was causing the problem. Such a mind-fuck! Also very relevant to Leo's latest work about fear and identity.

So yeah, in my view you should literally forget about the problem. And when such situations arise, just notice what is going on and think with your whole mind instead of just the contrarian part of you. Could you be more vulnerable and open about what you're actually going through perhaps? So that other people can see what is going on inside you? On the other hand, can you see where they are coming from? Do you see the importance of social harmony in an organization? etc. Try to bring that big-picture thinking more into your day-to-day life.

This article might be interesting to you. It's about the character structure often referred to as the "challenger-defender".

[flowboy]

I just had a conversation with my boss. But I noticed how advanced my getting-along skills actually are. I carefully avoid stepping on someone's ego territory, and am getting ever better at that.

The difference is, I recognize his authority and I respect him.

And also, he's not a control freak who triggers me by controlling me in the exact same way that I would, but have sworn off

Edited September 25, 2019 by flowboy

[flowboy]

8 hours ago, tsuki said:

How does this video make you feel?

Wow, such a loving and humorous voice <3

I ended up listening to all of them, at least partly. I feel more like a wanna-be-8 than a real one. Like I've been preparing in my shell to be one, and now I'm ready. Or something. I might be a 9w8. But I'm not sure, I should take a test. Thank you for pointing this out to me, I've been having a lot of fun recognizing people I know in these descriptions

[tsuki]

@flowboy That's Eli Jaxon Bear, enlightenment teacher focused on the enneagram.

You may be a sexual six. The difference is that six is fueled by fear and stuck in the head. The machoism is then a way of fending the threat off by being aggressive. An 8 is always willing to escalate while a 6 is more of a push-surrender dynamic. 

If you're unsure if your type, you are probably a six. Doubt is the fear of fear.

Edited September 25, 2019 by tsuki

[flowboy]

@tsuki  That rings true!

[CreamCat]

After you grow up, you will become more able to love me, too.

[flowboy]

This morning I feel just really happy and loving and free.

I'm getting the sense that this may a phase that is almost ending: proving to myself that I can stand up to people.

You see, in the past, when I was getting bullied, many times I did not dare stand up for myself.

Possibly, now that I know I am not afraid to withstand pressure, I can choose to go along, not from a place of fear but from a place of freedom to choose peace.

Just some thoughts.

@tsuki I took a test and it said I'm 100% 5, 50% 6 and 50-90% of a whole bunch of others... It really does appear to me like I've got elements of 5, 6, 8 and 9

Which one are you?

[XYZ]

I used to be like this and am on the autism spectrum. Lean to explain your point of view without reacting emotionally, or attacking the other person for being they way they are. Let go of the need to be right, and know even if you know you are, it isn't that important that you need to correct people. Because as you can readily observe, people tend to take things personally, and just like you, don't like being told what to do, leave them to their own dogmatism and other unconscious behavior. Even if you can't engage with other peoples' emotions directly, you can use cognitive empathy to imagine how you would feel if someone said to you the same things, and think before you speak.

[flowboy]

1 minute ago, XYZ said:

leave them to their own dogmatism and other unconscious behavior.

this is probably good advice.

Still, I'm going to maintain the principle that I never will pretend I agree with something.

But maybe I can stop shouting my disagreement so loudly

[tsuki]

@flowboy @flowboy Tests are generally unreliable because enneagram is cognitive, not behavioral. It is much better to understand theory and type yourself by understanding the mechanics of your ego.

I'm type six, but depending on my stress level I can become nine or three. I also have something of a minor ego that is centered in five and can go to eight or even seven.

It is very tricky for a six to type itself.

[tsuki]

@flowboy I suggest reading From fixation to freedom written by Eli Jaxon Bear.