Radical honesty is pissing off a lot of people where I work

[flowboy]

As far back as I can remember, I've always responded with hard rebellion whenever someone told me what to do and it was clear to be that it was stupid.

In high school, I didn't let a teacher get away with any perceived flaw in an exercise or inaccuracy in a teaching. Unless it was a feared and respected teacher.

But temps and teaching assistants would get hell from me. Instead of doing the exercises they made for us, I scribbled them full of notes, things to improve.

 

In my adult life I carry myself with the attitude: "I'm here, and I'm going to tell you what I think. I don't care who it pisses off."

Usually that goes well.

But I seem to have an extreme intolerance for group think, and it feels natural for me to challenge it. Whenever I detect that people are being dogmatic, or not thinking for themselves, or when people try to make me conform to something that I think is stupid, I enjoy saying the opposite, just to stir it up and make people think.

This led to an argument today with some guys who are informally recognized as more senior than me, but not officially the boss of me.

The argument ended with me questioning the coworker's authority (he tried to make me do something his way), which led to the other senior guy confirming that his authority should be recognized.

To which I said: "We don't have to agree on everything. I'm fine with having a different opinion. I will make the change, as it doesn't really matter, but I will say that the reasons for it are bullshit, and the whole discussion is based on nonsense. You value conformity, which I understand your reasons for, and yet I think it is a bad idea. Let's just leave it at that."

I have a gnawing feeling that I'm shooting myself in the foot. Because of my unwillingness to agree, it seems like I'm triggering these coworkers and giving them the idea that I'm trying to nibble at their authority. There is even a strong urge in me to "finish the job" by telling the guy in front of everyone, that as long as I'm here, I will tell him my unpleasant truth, and I refuse to pretend to agree with his rules just to make him comfortable, and he better learn to deal with it.

I did not say that yet, because I'm internally conflicted. Experience tells me that less is more, and the latter may be complete overkill, and be perceived as unnecessary hostility. But darn, it would feel good. There is definitely an element of wanting to assert/restore dominance.

I don't need anybody to like me, but I also don't want to be viewed as a troublemaker and get fired for it.

However: I need to be true to myself, and speaking my mind is part of that.

 

My question is not who is right and who is wrong.

It is clear to me that I'm being a rebellious asshole, and could have saved everyone some stress and energy by not "being so difficult".

However, it feels part of my Life's Purpose to rebel. Like I was born to go against the status quo. And I think that people who speak their truth and dare to go against the crowd have tremendous value. So why would I change anything.

I'm conflicted because if there is nothing to gain, it seems insane to risk my job. In my mind everyone would benefit from less needless regulation, but that is just my view. The crazy thing is, a part of me would be very proud if I fought every battle to the end. Even if that meant getting fired a bunch of times over unimportant nonsense, while bystanders shake their head at my inability to give in for my own good.

 

My question is:

• are you like me? If so, have you dealt with this challenge of this rebellious streak making you unpopular? What do you recommend?
• Do you know people like me? If so, do you have any interesting insights or advice?

 

My hypothesis is that I was simply born a well-meaning asshole, and this is simply an unavoidable consequence of being myself. Probably I should be self-employed rather than working for someone, because I will never fit in that role (unless if it were for fear of survival)

Edited September 24, 2019 by flowboy

[exhale]

It is important to know when you need to stand your ground on an ethical or safety concern.  Though, it is important to be able to work as a contributing part of a team.  An employer (and for that matter clients in a self-employed capacity) are not looking for people to make their lives more difficult, they are looking for people to make their lives easier.  Sometimes, even if you are right, there is value in humility and being easy to work with. Sometimes, even when you think you are right, you might learn something from someone else.    

Based on your self-description, I wouldn't be surprised if your peers characterize you as hypercritical, condescending, blunt, rude, and insubordinate.  

What is amazing is that you have (are developing) the self-awareness of your attitude, actions and potential consequences.  Most people do not have this awareness.  You can be whomever you want--you can continue on this path, or you have the opportunity to change/evolve/grow.  

The most appropriate question is: who do you want to be?

Even in a self-employed capacity, most opportunities are going to involve interpersonal relationships and interactions.  Of which, being a team player will get you a lot further in life, business and relationships.  

[Forestluv]

47 minutes ago, flowboy said:

My question is:

• are you like me? If so, have you dealt with this challenge of this rebellious streak making you unpopular? What do you recommend?

I've had some of that. I was conditioned in a hyper-critical environment. My hyper-criticism was mostly directly inward as self-criticism, yet a portion was expressed externally. In terms of the inter-personal relations you speak of. . . control was a major issue for me. I wanted to consider myself as an easy-going guy that goes with the flow, yet I had underlying control issues. In particular, a desire to control the narrative.

47 minutes ago, flowboy said:

My hypothesis is that I was simply born a well-meaning asshole, and this is simply an unavoidable consequence of being myself. 

A couple traps here. I often considered myself well-meaning. This can be a rationalization mechanism of avoidance. It protects and distracts from underlying issues. I inquired: what exactly is "well-meaning"? What I found wasn't something I wanted to find. . .  As well, I introspected intent vs. impact. . . And the saying "I was just born this way and I'm just being myself" is another protective mechanism that prevents personal growth. . . 

47 minutes ago, flowboy said:

My question is not who is right and who is wrong.

Of course not. The ego wants to avoid looking at it's own self-rigthousness

47 minutes ago, flowboy said:

Probably I should be self-employed rather than working for someone, because I will never fit in that role

Each personality seems to fit in better in certain situations. I thrive more in certain environments than others. Yet I think you are going a step further than that. To me, the underlying desire is: how can I continue to be an asshole without any of the consequences of being an asshole?

You can develop into a person that is a highly talented non-asshole that contributes to society without inter-personal conflict and tension. 

[flowboy]

@Serotoninluv  Some extremely valuable insights, thank you! Feels spot-on? It's going to take me some minutes to process. (Although that might be an avoidance strategy of the ego)

Definitely recognize the desire to control the narrative.

Had I come up with the idea, I may have happily applied the change that I'm calling stupid at the moment.

Because if I give in to someone making me do something, it feels like I'm losing.

Edited September 24, 2019 by flowboy

[flowboy]

14 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

To me, the underlying desire is: how can I continue to be an asshole without any of the consequences of being an asshole?

Yeah, that would be great! I am accepting some consequences though. It's fine if it causes people to not like me. Because it does cause me to like me more. A part of me loves to trigger people by speaking my truth, and enjoys the chaos it creates. But am I prepared to then get fired for example? Hmm...

Maybe. It seems to be going in that direction. Like the brakes are off, filters are lifted and come what may.

However, it does seem that in some cases it's worth it, and in some it is not...

 

15 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I inquired: what exactly is "well-meaning"? What I found wasn't something I wanted to find. . .  

What is well-meaning?

- With intention to do good

What does it mean to do good?

- To act out of love and do what the Heart says is right. Acting for any other reason is a sin

I'm not sure what to ask next...

In the case that caused me to start this topic, it feels not right. So maybe I should meditate every time I feel the urge to defy...

Edited September 24, 2019 by flowboy

[Farnaby]

58 minutes ago, flowboy said:

As far back as I can remember, I've always responded with hard rebellion whenever someone told me what to do and it was clear to be that it was stupid.

In high school, I didn't let a teacher get away with any perceived flaw in an exercise or inaccuracy in a teaching. Unless it was a feared and respected teacher.

But temps and teaching assistants would get hell from me. Instead of doing the exercises they made for us, I scribbled them full of notes, things to improve.

 

In my adult life I carry myself with the attitude: "I'm here, and I'm going to tell you what I think. I don't care who it pisses off."

Usually that goes well.

But I seem to have an extreme intolerance for group think, and it feels natural for me to challenge it. Whenever I detect that people are being dogmatic, or not thinking for themselves, or when people try to make me conform to something that I think is stupid, I enjoy saying the opposite, just to stir it up and make people think.

This led to an argument today with some guys who are informally recognized as more senior than me, but not officially the boss of me.

The argument ended with me questioning the coworker's authority (he tried to make me do something his way), which led to the other senior guy confirming that his authority should be recognized.

To which I said: "We don't have to agree on everything. I'm fine with having a different opinion. I will make the change, as it doesn't really matter, but I will say that the reasons for it are bullshit, and the whole discussion is based on nonsense. You value conformity, which I understand your reasons for, and yet I think it is a bad idea. Let's just leave it at that."

I have a gnawing feeling that I'm shooting myself in the foot. Because of my unwillingness to agree, it seems like I'm triggering these coworkers and giving them the idea that I'm trying to nibble at their authority. There is even a strong urge in me to "finish the job" by telling the guy in front of everyone, that as long as I'm here, I will tell him my unpleasant truth, and I refuse to pretend to agree with his rules just to make him comfortable, and he better learn to deal with it.

I did not say that yet, because I'm internally conflicted. Experience tells me that less is more, and the latter may be complete overkill, and be perceived as unnecessary hostility. But darn, it would feel good. There is definitely an element of wanting to assert/restore dominance.

I don't need anybody to like me, but I also don't want to be viewed as a troublemaker and get fired for it.

However: I need to be true to myself, and speaking my mind is part of that.

 

My question is not who is right and who is wrong.

It is clear to me that I'm being a rebellious asshole, and could have saved everyone some stress and energy by not "being so difficult".

However, it feels part of my Life's Purpose to rebel. Like I was born to go against the status quo. And I think that people who speak their truth and dare to go against the crowd have tremendous value. So why would I change anything.

I'm conflicted because if there is nothing to gain, it seems insane to risk my job. In my mind everyone would benefit from less needless regulation, but that is just my view. The crazy thing is, a part of me would be very proud if I fought every battle to the end. Even if that meant getting fired a bunch of times over unimportant nonsense, while bystanders shake their head at my inability to give in for my own good.

 

My question is:

• are you like me? If so, have you dealt with this challenge of this rebellious streak making you unpopular? What do you recommend?
• Do you know people like me? If so, do you have any interesting insights or advice?

 

My hypothesis is that I was simply born a well-meaning asshole, and this is simply an unavoidable consequence of being myself. Probably I should be self-employed rather than working for someone, because I will never fit in that role (unless if it were for fear of survival)

I have the same tendency myself, although it's a lot less strong than before. Sometimes my ego backlashes and I start thinking I'm doing others a favor being challenging, skeptical, crytical and mirroring the underlying causes of their behavior. I don't know if it's your case, but most times this is just a rationalization of some anger that I'm expressing in this passive-aggressive way. If others haven't asked for my criticism, etc., but I still do it, I'm crossing a boundary and not respecting them.

Something that has helped me is a kind of grief process that starts with the question: "Would I be able to live with the possibility of not having control over how other people think, behave, their opinions, etc.?" You might discover you're pretty resistant to this idea. And at the same time you may see how liberating it feels to stop trying to control these things. 

You seem to have a great deal of self-awareness and ability to analyze your reality, which is a gift and can be used to your benefit. But be careful to not 100% believe what you think about yourself and other people, since it may be your ego clinging to some sense of control. 

In my case, it's also somehow related to trust issues and fear of being hurt. Maybe there's something to that in your case too. 

I hope this is somehow useful! Good luck  

Edited September 24, 2019 by Farnaby

[Forestluv]

@flowboy It takes a lot of openness and willingness to look at this stuff. And it's not always black and white. . . There are times when I have direct experience and knowledge - yet I am perceived as being arrogant. Is the issue with me being arrogant? Or is the issue with the other person interpreting me as arrogant? It can get tricky at times.

One thing I've learned is that there are various forms of intelligence. I was high up on rational/intellectual intelligence, yet I was really low on social intelligence. My intellectual intelligence could not compensate for my deficiency in social intelligence and it was causing problems in my inter-personal relationships. 

[flowboy]

18 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

Something that has helped me is a kind of grief process that starts with the question: "Would I be able to live with the possibility of not having control over how other people think, behave, their opinions, etc.?" You might discover you're pretty resistant to this idea. And at the same time you may see how liberating it feels to stop trying to control these things. 

@Farnaby Yikes, you're spot-on! I hate group think and I am clinging to the idea that I can stop it and wake people up in every case.

There is attachment to control the narrative, as well.

I get easily triggered if someone contradicts my views in front of me, wanting to 'correct' them, and yet I seek to contradict others' beliefs and trigger them in that way. The symmetry is uncanny

So, in a way, I'm fighting myself...

Just like I am having the most arguments with the biggest control-freak, although I understand him perfectly because I used to be that way.

So, does that mean that if I were nicer to myself about being controlling, OR about being intolerant of contradiction, would that make me nicer to others as well?

It is true that I'm very strict with myself about always being open to logical argument. I want to always be open to discussion, but in many cases I fail this requirement and will try to shut people up in unfriendly and uncalled for manner. And I hate that about me, so it is indeed a shadow.

Edited September 24, 2019 by flowboy

[allislove]

Em. There were so much habits in signature and now only 'Not smoking'. What happened flowboy? 

[flowboy]

54 minutes ago, exhale said:

The most appropriate question is: who do you want to be?

I want to be the asshole. But only when it matters. I see this ability to disagree and speak my mind under pressure as a valuable skill that I've been honing for a long time.

But I suppose there is a toxic side to it. Too much and I will end up in a destructive tailspin, where no one wants to work with me.

54 minutes ago, exhale said:

Based on your self-description, I wouldn't be surprised if your peers characterize you as hypercritical, condescending, blunt, rude, and insubordinate.

Yes, I am often characterized as most of those things. And I like it / am attached to it.

But I suppose there is value in being tactful, as you get more accomplished that way.

54 minutes ago, exhale said:

Even in a self-employed capacity, most opportunities are going to involve interpersonal relationships and interactions.  Of which, being a team player will get you a lot further in life, business and relationships.  

Yikes, that one hurt a bit I suppose I have this fantasy of never having to be considerate/tactful/pleasing again.

I was never good at that. And I hated that I wasn't good at subtleties, social skills, being likeable.

So I suppose I made being blunt my thing.

Deep stuff, guys...

So many threads to pull here, I get confused about what is even the main thing...

Edited September 24, 2019 by flowboy

[flowboy]

@dimitri Good question! Haha, a month ago I couldn't sleep for several days, and in bad judgment I smoked again, rationalising that "I'm at a festival and there are no rules here" or something equally dumb. That caused me to drop the other habits as well, in a chain reaction, so I had to be honest here and remove them from my signature until I officially start again.

[Commodent]

40 minutes ago, flowboy said:

Do you know people like me? If so, do you have any interesting insights or advice?

My flatmate does have similar tendencies, and to be honest it annoys the heck out of me. Whenever I ask him for something, he will make a very strong point out of marking his own independence. He seems obsessed with making the statement that nobody has no control over him, and it looks quite ridiculous to anyone but him. It's as if he's creating a power struggle that isn't really there. I don't really care about how independent he considers himself to be, I simply wanted him to take the leftovers that has been standing on the kitchen table since the day before. Like that... I have compromised a lot and I'm quite fed up at this point, so I'm planning on moving out soon.

Having grown up in a controlling, authoritarian environment myself, I can certainly see where he's coming from. I acted exactly the same way when I was younger. And having met his mother and seen how they interact, I know he likely grew up in the exact same kind of environment. It creates serious issues around one's sense of autonomy.

I think one key insight for me was realizing that independence is not a virtue in and of itself. Our society tells us that one should always be independent at all times, and not be a tool, beta male, nice guy whatever. But if you live by such beliefs you are potentially closing yourself off from some completely normal and healthy behaviors. Surrendering your will and just playing along can oftentimes be the best thing to do. Point being, don't be afraid to be a sheep sometimes.

Being able to speak your honest opinion is certainly a great strength, but I'd like to mention that the most prominent growth is usually not found in the ways one has always done things. For you that growth is probably found in learning how to get along better with other people, judging by what you wrote.

These videos might be relevant. They describe the common struggle between self and tribe that many personality types experience:

 

 

 

[Muhammad]

Sometimes you better be wise than right

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, flowboy said:

What is well-meaning?

- With intention to do good

What does it mean to do good?

- To act out of love and do what the Heart says is right. Acting for any other reason is a sin

I like the "to act out of love and follow the heart" part. I've found that when I am genuine and act out of love, things seem to go better. 

How do we know when we are acting out of love? This can be tricky. For me, I've noticed my mind coming in and rationalizing that I have good intentions, yet below the thinking. . . it just doesn't feel like I'm acting out of love. Then, I make up stories about how I do have good intentions and acting out of love. This disconnect can cause me internal turmoil. . . Yet when there is acting out of love, there is a knowing it is out of love - it's not an intellectual thing. 

One thing I noticed was that I thought I was acting with good intentions and out of love, yet it wasn't being perceived by the other person like I was acting out of good intentions and love. I would often say "Well, I know I have good intentions and if they can't see that, then it's their problem". Then I started looking at intention and impact. I was so focused on me and my intention that I was unable to see the impact from their perspective. . . . For example, a couple years ago I dated a woman of color. This was a new experience for me. Occasionally she would tell me "What you just said is racially insensitive." My initial instinct was to protect myself with intention such as "Well, I didn't intend to be racially insensitive. If you interpreted it that way, that's your issue". Yet, there was a part of me that knew I was missing something. I then opened myself up and many of my unconscious biases were revealed. To go deeper, I traveled to foreign villages and lived with local families. Over time, I could see more and more perspectives - and learned about intention and impact. I also discovered that sometimes there was personal insecurity underlying "my good intentions".  Judgement and separation began to dissolve and I became better at connecting with people - a wide variety of people. 

@Commodent Good stuff. Thanks for your input. 

[tsuki]

@flowboy I was similar to you, but the difference is that resistance seems to strengthen your resolve, while it wore me off and made me self-reflect.
If everything around you pisses you off and you see the sheepish behavior everywhere, I'd say that you've outgrown your environment.
Changing its structure is only an option if you are in a position of power and are actually willing to cooperate with the people you currently argue with.

Being a whistle-blower is only beneficial for the group if there are structures that check people's power.
You cannot go around humiliating people that have the potential to stomp you. You have to be smarter than that.
Perhaps you are enjoying the rush of being a white knight fighting for the right cause? Speaking up for those unwilling to do so?
Consider the possibility that those in power are actually weaker than you and the threat of your presence makes them push you.

I'd say that it is much wiser to understand the structure you are operating in and develop your personal niche where you rule by yourself.
That way you can provide value for the group while enjoying freedom you seem to seek (if that is really the case for you - you may actually be seeking struggle).

[tsuki]

 

[d0ornokey]

It's good your awareness of this increasing. This is the process of dropping the habit 

[flowboy]

@tsuki @Serotoninluv @Commodent @Farnaby @exhale @d0ornokey
@Muhammad ...

Such great GREAT quality of replies... thank you guys for taking the time. I feel so grateful!???

You are giving me a LOT to think about...

Edited September 24, 2019 by flowboy

[MAYA EL]

You sound like you have come down with terminal Divabeachesdisease

As your doctor I prescribe some Humble Pie and perhaps a shot or two of failure should clear it right up

[JustThinkingAloud]

Yep, that’s me, a bit less now, I used to be much worse. It’s just that when someone’s wrong I have this need to correct them, it’s their problem that they don’t like the truth. It’s the truth. I used to have a label “brutally honest”. It started with rebelling against my dad that always got angry with me whenever I proved him wrong. So I did it on purpose, I enjoyed proving him wrong.

Now, I realized that I have to choose between honesty and good relationships with others. What is more important to you? When I don’t like someone and want to annoy them, I love being “brutally honest”. When I like someone or need them, I sugar coat the truth when they benefit from it and when they don’t benefit from the truth then I shut up. I like them and respect them so I don’t what to upset them for no reason. Nobody likes to be wrong.

Another problem is the rebelling, it can actually destroy your life, you should do what YOU want to do, not what others make you to do. You actually let others influence your actions even if it’s the opposite of what they want you to do. You still do something because other people said something, you don’t do it because it’s your choice to do it. Whatever other people say, you still need to do what YOU want to do, whether it aligns with what they say or not.