How can we know its not all come from the brain?

[Truth Addict]

1 minute ago, Commodent said:

I feel like the question that matters the most is; does it really matter which one it is? Maybe all experience is rooted in some objective reality beyond our perception, or maybe nothing really exists and everything is "imaginary". Who knows. As long as you're not locked in some ideology on either side I think you're good.

Finally! ???

[Leeeon]

27 minutes ago, Commodent said:

I feel like the question that matters the most is; does it really matter which one it is? Maybe all experience is rooted in some objective reality beyond our perception, or maybe nothing really exists and everything is "imaginary". Who knows. As long as you're not locked in some ideology on either side I think you're good.

Not beeing stuck in Ideology is obviously important, but the issue i have about there beeing an objective reality is that: "how can there be an objective underlying reality if you can't experience it directly."

I mean in truth there can't be an ultimate distincion between Perception and perciever, right?

[Merkabah]

@Nivsch There is a good reason why we talk past each other on this topic and probably won't go anywhere ; You want to nail down a metaphysical concept through conceptualization and use of logic. My friend, to get a grasp of what ppl on the forum get at, you will need to do the actual inner work and experience it firsthand. It's a fool's errand to try to capture a profound metaphysical phenomenon using the imperfect common wisdom and argumentation.

It will be frustrating for both sides  trying to reach an understanding where you have no idea where other ppl come from. That is because language is not the RIGHT MEDIUM through which you can communicate these kinds of phenomena.   

[Commodent]

3 hours ago, Leeeon said:

Not beeing stuck in Ideology is obviously important, but the issue i have about there beeing an objective reality is that: "how can there be an objective underlying reality if you can't experience it directly."

I mean in truth there can't be an ultimate distincion between Perception and perciever, right?

And that is a very valid objection. But can you from that conclude that there can't possibly be anything outside our realm of experience? For example, you can't experience my experience directly, but does that mean my experience can't possibly exist? I'd say no. So what more could there be? An actual framework generating a consistent and predictable experience? Really, who knows?

This very much reminds me of an Alan Watts quote:

Quote

Because what you are, in your inmost being, escapes your examination in rather the same way that you can’t look directly into your own eyes without using a mirror, you can’t bite your own teeth, you can’t taste your own tongue, and you can’t touch the tip of this finger with the tip of this finger.

 

[Leeeon]

6 hours ago, Commodent said:

And that is a very valid objection. But can you from that conclude that there can't possibly be anything outside our realm of experience? For example, you can't experience my experience directly, but does that mean my experience can't possibly exist? I'd say  no.

@Commodent

Im not saying that there is nothing outside of the realm of MY (me the person)  experience but that there is nothing outside of Experience in general.

So in my view i litterlly am you/the experience of you, just not right now, because im preocupied beeing me. (:

Edited September 26, 2019 by Leeeon

[Nivsch]

On 25.9.2019 at 2:25 PM, wpw said:

@Nivsch might it possibly benefit you to try psychedelics?  

Maybe, but if I try it in the future it will be SO graduately like (for example a mushroom) starting from 0.3-0.4 and add 0.1 every couple of weeks or even every month or more. Something like that. Slow and relaxed. Even if only in the 5th month i will start to feel something 'deep', its ok. Slower is better.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Nivsch

[Bas]

@Nivsch Psychedelics don't work the way you want them to work. This is not some sort of mental a-ha insight you slowly figure out. You don't realise that you will literally be blown out of physical reality for this to make sense.

[hamedsf]

nice question! (I like your questions that's why I always write an answer!)

in your dreams, become aware that you're dreaming! 

so take a look in the mirror and check yourself, you have a head and brain inside it but does that brain inside your dream conjure up and renders the whole scene you see in your dreams? 

and in your dreams, you go and you find a professional one in your dreams, and you ask him, what's the essence of this dream? "it's merely a hallucination and your brain too" he answers, and you tell him: it's oversimplification of the issue to say this!

yes! this fact is too simple to perceive, the enlightenment is right in front of our eyes, but it's too simple to be perceived! that over-simplified fact even requires lots of consciousness work in order to get accessed!  

Edited September 27, 2019 by hamedsf

[Nivsch]

@hamedsf did you respond to me (the topic starting message)?

[hamedsf]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@hamedsf did you respond to me (the topic starting message)?

@Nivsch How can we know its not all come from the brain?

[Nivsch]

@hamedsf oh ok the format of the forum sometimes confuse me, and thank you! ? i glad you like them!

The thing is that when you are imagine or dreaming something its all messy and the plot of the story is jumpy and its all pictures which arent connected to one another, but during the day the picture is continiuous, realistic, tidy, logic. Your chair always looks the same, and reality often remind me things that when it happens i feel there is no chance i am hullucinate it. When ill remeber an example ill add it.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

On 26.9.2019 at 3:17 PM, Leo Gura said:

How do you know? What if it is?

What if your body is imaginary? How would you tell the difference if all you've ever experienced your whole life has been imagination?

What if the very thing you think is real has always just been something you've been imagining to be real?

If you imagine a thing to be real, does that mean it is real? Or is it still imaginary?

How would you distinguish between you imagining something to be real vs it actually being real?

Of course i cant know i just tried to understand what exactly you meant when you said that its all imagination - the raw vision or just what we think the things are. But i am also admit that right now i cant think differently about the raw vision. I cant be really open to the option its imagination, because real day time is very continiuous, logic (your blue chair will never turn itself to red for example) and it all looks just so realistic, stable and logic. But when you are dreaming or imaging, the plot of the story is messy and its all bunch of unconnected pictures.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

On 25.9.2019 at 0:47 AM, Consilience said:

Where do brains appear? Awareness

Where does the world appear? Awareness 

Where do mystical experiences occur? Awareness

The distinction you must make is form vs. formlessness. Notice that form (physical brian states) can only interact with more form (conscious experience). But equally notice, that form cannot directly interact or manipulate formlessness (awareness). Form is great at interacting and manipulating itself, the 6 sensations (sight, taste, touch, sound, smell, mind) are all this entangled amalgamation we call reality. What you have to become conscious off is formlessness and moreover, that this formlessness is not only the underlying nature of reality, but it exists a priori to ALL forms within reality AND that form does not ever manipulate formlessness. Formlessness is infinite nothingness. Form only interacts with more form in a strange loop like manor (watch leo’s strange loop video to understand this phenomena more deeply)

Sorry if this sounds redundant but Im trying to drill home this distinction is needed to understand why brains do not generate consciousness. Brains correspond with various experiences but not consciousness itself. I wont even say create conscious experiences because causality is its own rabbit hole not worth getting into.

After read it now I still can't (even that I want to!) be convinced that is not the brain which creates the consciousness. But I will read your message more times and maybe i will understand it differently later.

[hamedsf]

14 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@hamedsf oh ok the format of the forum sometimes confuse me, and thank you! ? i glad you like them!

The thing is that when you are imagine or dreaming something its all messy and the plot of the story is jumpy and its all pictures which arent connected to one another, but during the day the picture is continiuous, realistic, tidy, logic. Your chair always looks the same, and reality often remind me things that when it happens i feel there is no chance i am hullucinate it. When ill remeber an example ill add it.

hahaha, dreams may seem loosey goosey, and the reality is a fixed and continuous, but don't remember that there are layers to imagination! 

the other imagination may seem more fixed than others!  

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Of course i cant know i just tried to understand what exactly you meant when you said that its all imagination - the raw vision or just what we think the things are. But i am also admit that right now i cant think differently about the raw vision. I cant be really open to the option its imagination, because real day time is very continiuous, logic (your blue chair will never turn itself to red for example) and it all looks just so realistic, stable and logic. But when you are dreaming or imaging, the plot of the story is messy and its all bunch of unconnected pictures.

Why should this mean reality’s not a fantasy or dream?

Why does consistent, continuous, “logical” (there’s literally nothing logical about existence existing though), stability, etc... mean it’s real? Do you see how arbitrary of a definition you're giving real here? What if despite these traits you’re describing it WAS a dream? What if the dream of God was stable, consistent, logical, etc.?

Edited September 27, 2019 by Consilience

[Nivsch]

@Consilience I feel many times that reality reminds me think that i forgot, like i see and then ahhh right i forgot. Reality creates my toughts not less then my toughts create reality.

[Nivsch]

@hamedsf your are real. I am not imagine you, and you know that!

No matter that you and I we both the same because we cant control ourselves (I discovered it during mindfulness and anxiety periods) and also we cant control each other. Thats why me and other are the same thing - we are ONE.

Thats how ME understand what Leo means by oneness. 

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Nivsch

[undeather]

I understand you Nivsch, been there, done that! 

Nobody in here will give you a satisfying answer, so stop looking for one. 
The only way to find out is to do the exercises and find the answers for yourself.

I am not aware of anything at the moment, but I am doing the exercises. 
I will remain agnostic until I find more clues.
 

Anything else is bullshit.

 

Greetings

Edited September 27, 2019 by undeather

[flowboy]

11 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Maybe, but if I try it in the future it will be SO graduately like (for example a mushroom) starting from 0.3-0.4 and add 0.1 every couple of weeks or even every month or more. Something like that. Slow and relaxed. Even if only in the 5th month i will start to feel something 'deep', its ok. Slower is better.

???

This is your ego being shit scared to die, trying to control it and hoping it can 'learn to handle' it... nonono sir, at one point you will need to make the leap into the unknown

[Consilience]

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Consilience I feel many times that reality reminds me think that i forgot, like i see and then ahhh right i forgot. Reality creates my toughts not less then my toughts create reality.

Tbh this response didn't answer what I was asking at all. Why does reality appearing logical, consistent, stable, or anyway at all mean anything? How do you know you aren't dreaming this all up? How do you know this isn't just be simulated?