Leo, What do you think of Justin Trudeau?

[CreamCat]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

We need some way of repremanding a person without destroying their whole career.

Germany needed love rather than punishment after world war 1. Germany got financial love after world war 2. If you destroy people's career for little mistakes, they may turn into bearded skinhead neo-nazis later.

Hug neo-nazis as this black man does.

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by CreamCat

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Shaming some folks in a UN speech is one thing, sicking a mob onto a political leader for a minor past mistake to get revenge is another thing.

This requires a delicate balancing act. I don't think people should be fired for minor mistakes, like what happened with Al Franken. Sure, he made some mistakes, but did it really deserve a firing?

We need some way of repremanding a person without destroying their whole career.

Like I said, you must understand is that it's not just a past mistake, and it's not truly minor in the way you fathom it to be. This behavior trickles into his current policy decisions and actually harms people in ways that you might not likely appreciate due to not being on the receiving end of the problems.

The fact stands that Justin Trudeau is the most powerful person in Canada. So, when you don't hold him accountable for his racist actions (even if it was just an isolated incident with no reflection in his policy... which it wasn't and isn't) it sends a message. And that message is that these types of things are just "par for the course" and acceptable. And it communicates that it's just normal.

And it also communicates, that since we're not holding someone with the degree of power Trudeau has accountable for his racism, that we're not going to hold ANYONE accountable. And then, the willful racists get the message that they will probably get a free pass too.

And when we don't hold people accountable and we just treat destructive behavior as normal and as not a big deal, we're unwise in doing so because we lose an important opportunity to join the collective in setting standards for behavior and saying "We will not accept this from you or anyone."

This is the value in collective shaming and outrage culture. It sends a very clear message of what the populace deems acceptable versus unacceptable. And it has power.

Also, given that you're a popular public figure, posting your Trudeau apologism on a high traffic public forum, you have tremendous influence on how seriously these issues are taken. So, when you shrug your shoulders at this problem, it influences others to shrug their shoulders as well. And I see that as a very careless use of your platform and your power.

So, given the degree of power Trudeau has (and the fact that it wasn't just an isolated incident and that his present policy decisions and attitude reflect callousness toward marginalized groups), I think it's a disservice to just give him a pass and spare him collective scorn.

His actions have definitely warranted more metaphorical tarring and feathering than you're willing to see as just. 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Emerald

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, when you don't hold him accountable for his racist actions

I don't know of his "racist actions" besides the face paint. By all means share if you have some evidence.

I'm much more open to hearing about actual systemic racist policy vs face paint. I prefer to criticize politicians on their terrible policies than personal gaffs.

Trump is a bit of an exception because he is so clearly a morally bankrupt devil. But even Trump I have compassion for. He's doing the best he can.

[Emerald]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't know of his "racist actions" besides the face paint. By all means share if you have some evidence.

I'm much more open to hearing about actual systemic racist policy vs face paint. I prefer to criticize politicians on their terrible policies than personal gaffs.

Trump is a bit of an exception because he is so clearly a morally bankrupt devil. But even Trump I have compassion for. He's doing the best he can.

As I said before, he promised to help the Native American community in Grassy Narrows, deal with the problem of Mercury poisoning while he was campaigning. But he hasn't done anything of the sort. 

And when a Native Canadian confronted him about it at a high dollar fundraiser and talked about people's children being poisoned and not having anything to drink, he sarcastically deflected and made a joke and thanked her for her donation which brought jeers and laughter in the rest of the room.

Now, I get that he was being called out, but that derision and laughter was his first response to someone's genuine struggle with basic necessities being corrupted/poisoned, is telling that he doesn't have that much empathy toward the struggle of Native Canadians. 

Also, he's very big on cultural appropriation. Like, every time he visits a different country, he wears a very costume-y depiction of that culture. It's actually quite comical to see how campy he makes it.

Now, you may think that's not a big deal, but it does enforce stereotypes about minority groups in the eyes of more socially powerful majority groups. And that trickles into some really gnarly types of ignorance. And it also denotes a kind of vibe like he sees people from other cultures as an exotic novelty to be emulated. So, it's similar to blackface in many ways.

Here is a video about the Grassy Narrows thing...

 

[StephenK]

@Emerald  Let me present a scenario to you: Suppose the majority of white people think that black face is a 'minor issue'. Yes, they think it is slightly racist, but not a huge societal issue, as far as societal issues go. These people might have a level of internalized racism they have not yet been able to see, but they're otherwise not too concerned with race. Now suppose Emerald has the ability rile up the mob to shame someone that committed a black face offence. Suppose this mob gets very large and so agitated that fringe elements of the mob make comments such as 'See, all white people are really racist deep down inside', or some random individuals in the mob posts a death threats. These comments spread on social media. These extreme individuals in the mob come to represent the mob, and your otherwise slightly racist white people start to think "These people are insane. Look, they're posting death threats!". To them, the representation of the herd looks extreme. This then galvanizes the middle-of-the-road-racist individuals into feeling victimized by the mob. This then galvanizes them into being more hyper aware of race, and hence more agitated. I must say, the ease with which you said:

On 9/24/2019 at 11:54 PM, Emerald said:

Throw 'em to the dogs is what I say.  Make an example of him and let the pitchforked internet mob string him up

 makes my hair stand on end. I enjoy your other content, but there is an air of lovelessness and lack of subtlety to your approach that really disturbs me. I will say one last thing: I hope you don't have the ability to rile up an internet mob, as I think it will backfire on you spectacularly. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

As I said before, he promised to help the Native American community in Grassy Narrows, deal with the problem of Mercury poisoning while he was campaigning. But he hasn't done anything of the sort. 

And when a Native Canadian confronted him about it at a high dollar fundraiser and talked about people's children being poisoned and not having anything to drink, he sarcastically deflected and made a joke and thanked her for her donation which brought jeers and laughter in the rest of the room.

Also, he's very big on cultural appropriation. Like, every time he visits a different country, he wears a very costume-y depiction of that culture. It's actually quite comical to see how campy he makes it.

I wouldn't call that racist. Politics is tricky and many politicians aren't able to keep their promises for reasons other than racism.

Wearing costumes when abroad is fairly typical for leaders.

Racism is a pretty serious charge that requires solid evidence.

[Mannyb]

@Leo Gura I’m trying to make a case to my conservative relatives as to why Trump might be racist. Could you or anyone explain how his policies are racist please? They seem really convinced that Trump is not racist, that this argument is just leftist propaganda to get him out.

[Roy]

I'm Canadian. I haven't ever voted for Justin Trudeau but I'm happy he's our PM during this time. There has been competent and decisive leadership during this pandemic.

There may be a lot of things you can pick at him for like any politician he is no angel, but you can't deny he at least with him and his party there is a positive vision for this country with some integrity behind it.

Canada would have been fucked with Andrew Scheer and the Conservatives in power right now.

[AnthonyR]

Torontonian here.  I support Trudeau and voted for him.  His handling of the pandemic definitely  garnered him some more backing and support.  However the recent scandal and his involvement with WE Charity, where he okayed a 900 million volunteer program with the organization raised a conflict of interest situation and got him into some hot water with the opposition.  He is still a fairly young political candidate and is by no means the Perfect politician, he is making mistakes, and I'm sure he learning his lessons whist leading the Nation.  He can learn a lot from Bernie and Canada (more than the US) might be in a better position with someone like Bernie.

I agree with Roy (previous post) Not sure how the Conservatives and Andrew Scheer would have handled the situation.   Scheer seems too selfish and old-school.