how important is attractiveness for men in a relationship?

[Forestluv]

@Ibn Sina Thanks for those insights. I’m not familiar with the who incel thing. I’m in an older generation and a bit out of touch with the younger generation.  It’s interesting to me how sone men adopt an identity of incel.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

I’m sure this varies among women, yet I’m curious in general how high this is one in terms of actual attraction. For example, on a date a woman mentions she has an art hobbiest and shows a couple photos of her work. The guy is genuinely impressed and appreciates her creative ability. She mentions she is participating in an art exhibit and he genuinely wants to go. After the show, he becomes really interested in her, beyond her looks. Before their next date, he buys a couple art utensils he thought she may like. He doesn’t know much about art, yet it is a genuinely kind and sweet gesture. He is not doing all this manipulatively to get laid.

I imagine most guys don’t think this type of interest beyond looks is that important to a woman - she just says it is.  Much higher on the list is status, wealth and physical attractiveness of the male. Do you think there is some truth to this? Or are men grossly underestimating the importance of interest beyond looks?

I'd say that men are underestimating the importance of these gestures. They're very important to women... and for the VERY SAME core reason why wealth and status tend to attract women.

Most women aren't consciously sussing out men based on wealth and status. (Some are, but those are gold diggers - which is a different story).

But the attraction to wealth and status is a background process. But the purpose of that background process is much more vital and important than the wealth and status that it can home in on.

The background process's purpose is basically to determine, 'Is this man stable and responsible enough to be a good father and provider?'

It's based upon very old subconscious evolutionary structures in us, where a woman and her children's well-being is squarely in the hands of her mate who had to do nearly 100% of the hunting/gathering duties while she's giving birth and taking care of a newborn baby. And if he couldn't provide or just up and left, she and her baby are literally dead.

So, she is evolutionarily in a very vulnerable position in that way, and relies on a man a lot. So, all of her wiring is looking for signs of male investment in her particularly and signs that he can provide for her and her children's survival. And her wiring is looking for this, even if her conscious mind is not.

And those evolutionary structures are still in place, despite the fact that we've long evolved out of the nomadic ways that gave rise those structures.

So, when a man does small things like paying attention to a woman's interests and buying small things, it registers emotionally in a very similar way to a man being wealthy to women's evolutionary wiring regardless of whether the guy is wealthy and high status or not. That is, unless the woman's in her head and consciously seeking out some rich guy (aka shallow women and gold diggers). 

But if she's just letting her instincts run in the background and not getting up in her head, as most women do, she will be just as enamored (or more) by a guy of modest means buying her some paintbrushes than some money-bags kind of guy buying a piece of expensive jewelry. It's that he's showing her investment in her specifically that's important.

But the giving of gifts (especially gifts that show investment in who she is as a person), really hits the right evolutionary buttons because it communicates investment in her as a specific woman on the part of the man. Like, he's taken some of the money he's worked for and used it to procure something to give to show his affection and investment toward the woman in question... and not some other woman.

Now, modern people might have lost this meaning consciously. But evolutionarily speaking, novelty and gift items based around hobbies are a luxury and register as such. Paintbrushes now, might be something you could pick up for $3 at a bargain bin. But in nomadic times, an item as mundane as paintbrushes would be the epitome of luxury. And so, subconsciously, when a  man buys a woman a gift item, even if it's modest, it will register physiologically and emotionally as a signifier that a man has the capacity to provide for all the basic needs and then some. As he has bought her an item that's for fun and enjoyment and not for survival.

It's like a little birdie that collects trinkets to attract his mate. But it's not about the trinket or how much it costs, it's about the meaning it lights upon. And most importantly, it shows that he's gone out and done the work with his lady in mind.

 

[remember]

On 9/22/2019 at 2:12 PM, Mikael89 said:

There's countless of men who don't get a gf. There's even a whole incel movement thing about it. How many movements do we need before you can see the truth?

actually i know some really decent girls who went solo over years because there where no halfway decent guys around. it`s a more silent movement. but usually a decent girl who has some need left to find a partner who developed the same decency is still more interested in working herself out of the dilemma than most ostrich guys. that sometimes love hits one with the wrong guy is maybe because there are not enough decent guys, and then you take what`s available...in some sense you have to be market ready to be "chosen" on both sides - for women it might be more easy to be themselfs as we learn to be market ready much eralier than guys are. that`s a harsh reality, but it`s somehow an undertone of truth. so now it`s maybe about undertsanding what decency means, to understand the dilemma also hits girls quite often, it`s difficult to be compassionate or pittying about something we have to coap with through group pressure since maybe kindergarden. and in some sense it`s like guys already shared the power game amongst themselfs - girls just try to at least controll the love game. we have to play to male rules most of the time, why choosing a partner who doesn`t even try to have some self esteem? it would tear us down, it`s difficult to exchange emotional stuff for rational stuff alone, as the currency of love is emotion. and women need selfesteem to make it in the powergame much more than guys do, now you can maybe understand that it`s not different in the love game, although it`s another kind of selfesteem as it`s not about batteling or fighting each other but about surrendering to each other and we usually surrender to people our equal. (what means people who don`t put themselfs down, too much or elevate themselfs above us too much - it`s even more weird if they do both)

so developing some selfesteem and working on oneself is crucial, girls do it, too. it`s not different, we just don`t talk about it so much with guys as it is taken as a given. it`s a problem that a lot of guys are not attending that kind of school, because it`s girls school, well: yes, that`s exactly the problem of the whole science.

Edited September 23, 2019 by remember

[Ibn Sina]

5 hours ago, remember said:

girls just try to at least controll the love game

Hi, I would just like to learn more from you. What are the ways girls use to 'control' the love game?

5 hours ago, remember said:

we have to play to male rules most of the time, why choosing a partner who doesn`t even try to have some self esteem? it would tear us down,

Are you trying to say, that when it comes to relationships, girls want to have some 'self esteem' that is why they don't make moves that might lower their self esteem, like- chasing a guy?

5 hours ago, remember said:

(what means people who don`t put themselfs down, too much or elevate themselfs above us too much - it`s even more weird if they do both

Yes, this is a key idea in attraction. 

5 hours ago, remember said:

women need selfesteem to make it in the powergame much more than guys do,

5 hours ago, remember said:

developing some selfesteem and working on oneself is crucial, girls do it, too.

Why is it crucial for girls? I just want to hear your answer.
What are the ways in which girls develop or maintain their 'self esteem'?

Note- I have my own answers for these questions, but I just want to hear what you have to say.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[archi]

On 9/19/2019 at 7:32 PM, LoveandPurpose said:

Is what Leo said true? Can I save my realtionship? I really want to because i feel like it's just my ego wanting perfectionism and deep down I genuinely love her.

If you love  the question would not arise.

2months, you cannot even call it a relationship , gain experience by diving deep into relationship and you might be surprised, start with radical honesty, let her read what you wrote . 

[archi]

On 9/20/2019 at 6:45 AM, Leo Gura said:

In practice you're gonna have to settle for some compromise.....

For example, I have a few basic rules that are deal-breakers: like if she smokes, drinks, likes to get tattoos, or is overweight.

Don't settle for compromise ... search, search, search ... 

@Leo Gura I could not believe  what I just read .... what a mindless example  ... sounds like, you never smoked, you never were drunk and never was overweight  ... and well, tattoos can be removed too

[Zigzag Idiot]

There are more possibilities of difference in the human mind than there are stars in the Universe,,, something like that. Wasn't that the saying??

[Dane]

I have A LOT of personal experience in this area as I've dated both extremely attractive women as my girlfriend and average looking women. Additionally, I have a unique viewpoint on this that I think you may enjoy.

 

First and foremost, I want to address your original question - "How important is attractiveness for men in a relationship?" I noted that you did not say physical attractiveness. Either way, attractiveness is very important in a relationship. Let's face it, if your girlfriend was more attractive to you, you wouldn't even be here in the first place!

There are several schools of thought on this and I'm going to use some comparisons to help you explore them:

1. You're a dick... Actually, you should not be so shallow, you should appreciate the girl you have for who she is, you like her personality, etc...

2. You're being a pussy, dump the girl immediately because you aren't attracted to her and in fact, you are living in denial. In reality, you are not happy with her and you are consulting random people on the Internet for validation to leave her.

Over many years and relationships, I've discovered that the right woman for me must possess many traits. I feel that men get themselves into these types of sitautions because they simply are not being picky enough. They fear that they won't ever find the right woman so they make sacrifices... These sacrifices come in all forms...

A) Looks

B) Moral (she lies, cheats, etc...)

C) Intelligence (shes hot but makes ridiculous huge mistakes every week)

D) Baggage (shes a lot to put up with and comes with a huge situation)

E) Hardworking - Often sacrificed as "men are supposed to be the breadwinner"

 

The reality is, you DO NOT need to make ANY of these sacrifices. There are women out there who are HOT and SMART and LOYAL and FRIENDLY and very driven towards their careers, etc...

 

The above info took me YEARS of trial and error to figure out. I would get a very hot girl, be banging her brains out, but she would be putting my life into peril. Then, I'd get a less hot girl and be completely bored and know that I wouldn't be marrying her.

 

So the answer here is, YES ATTRACTIVENESS AND LOOKS ARE PART OF THE PACKAGE. You screwed up... You should NEVER start a serious relationship with a woman that you don't find to be stunningly attractive.

Let me say that again: You should NEVER start a relationship with a woman that you don't find to be stunningly attractive.

Why not? Well first of all, trust your body... There's a reason why we all have what we consider to be beautiful and while we may have siminlar interests, we have unique attractions... RESPECT THOSE! RESPECT YOUR BODY. It's basically the same reason you follow your gut instinct. Your gut is what tells you if a girl is hot or not to you... Trust it.

 

Now, that's not good enough because there are a lot of hot girls that you don't belong with... So the stunning beauty is the BASELINE for which you then look for other traits ON TOP OF. You don't settle for women you aren't attracted to, then hope it gets better. It doesn't.

 

Second part of this lesson is that looks represent other traits and this is something that I've found very few other guys are able to perceive like I am.

Yes, I value looks. However, it's not really the looks I value... It's the effort. Most people can look pretty good. The reality is, many people don't look so good because they don't spend much effort. Going to the gym, spending $6,000 on orthodontics, going out of your way to find out what style suits you, making your bed, cleaning your place, organizing your car, etc... These things all require EFFORT and to me when I see a woman who throws on some rags and doensn't keep herself up, THAT BEHAVIOR is unattractive... The looks are a side-effect.

As another example, I go to the gym and seem to be more disciplined than most around me, especially when it comes to diet. Now, I DO NOT DO THIS FOR LOOKS AT ALL. However, I get tons of compliments from women and men, moreso than I ever did earlier in my life, about my looks as a SIDE EFFECT of how I live my life. I actually do this stuff because it makes me feel good and I like to spend effort on myself... But the looks are a side effect of that.

So there's no reason I would want to be with a woman who doesn't take care of herself. We simply do not get along. They want to eat junk food, I don't. They want to sit around the house, I want to go be active. They expect me to go eat huge dinners with their family, and that's not in my lifestyle... Etc...

 

This is all real-world advice from my own experiences with women. Hope it helped.

[LoveandPurpose]

@Dane Thank you, I appreciate your effort. 

If you have a girl who you find stunningly beautiful, does that feeling ever wear off a bit, do you get used to her looks? 

 

[LoveandPurpose]

@Keyhole While there can be difficulties with relationships, I found it to be one of the most rewarding times in my life so far. It is very beautiful, but nothing can be perfect.

I don't know why do decided that, but maybe second guess yourself there. Also look out for confirmation bias.

[archi]

9 hours ago, Keyhole said:

@archi Let him make his list, he put in the work, so he gets to be a bit more picky if he wants to.
He wants a healthy woman, basically, and good for him.

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[outlandish]

When it comes to attraction, attractiveness is really all there is. Attractiveness isn't just looks, it's the whole vibe you feel with someone. Looks will factor in, as will so much else. If you find the girl you are with attractive despite the fact that she isn't the prettiest, that's great, enjoy that fact that your relationship is more than skin deep. If you truly don't find her attractive, don't try to fake it. You can't trick yourself (or her) into attraction, that will just lead to unhappiness for both of you.

edit: And I should add.. this isn't just for men, it goes for all sexes.

Sorry if I'm not adding anything to the discussion here, I didn't go through all of the replies you've had here already. I just wanted to chip in my POV because this is a lesson I've learned a few times in my life, and I wish someone had pointed it out to me when I was younger.

Edited September 24, 2019 by outlandish

[Truth Addict]

On 22/09/2019 at 11:36 PM, Emerald said:

I'd say that men are underestimating the importance of these gestures. They're very important to women... and for the VERY SAME core reason why wealth and status tend to attract women.

Most women aren't consciously sussing out men based on wealth and status. (Some are, but those are gold diggers - which is a different story).

But the attraction to wealth and status is a background process. But the purpose of that background process is much more vital and important than the wealth and status that it can home in on.

The background process's purpose is basically to determine, 'Is this man stable and responsible enough to be a good father and provider?'

It's based upon very old subconscious evolutionary structures in us, where a woman and her children's well-being is squarely in the hands of her mate who had to do nearly 100% of the hunting/gathering duties while she's giving birth and taking care of a newborn baby. And if he couldn't provide or just up and left, she and her baby are literally dead.

So, she is evolutionarily in a very vulnerable position in that way, and relies on a man a lot. So, all of her wiring is looking for signs of male investment in her particularly and signs that he can provide for her and her children's survival. And her wiring is looking for this, even if her conscious mind is not.

And those evolutionary structures are still in place, despite the fact that we've long evolved out of the nomadic ways that gave rise those structures.

So, when a man does small things like paying attention to a woman's interests and buying small things, it registers emotionally in a very similar way to a man being wealthy to women's evolutionary wiring regardless of whether the guy is wealthy and high status or not. That is, unless the woman's in her head and consciously seeking out some rich guy (aka shallow women and gold diggers). 

But if she's just letting her instincts run in the background and not getting up in her head, as most women do, she will be just as enamored (or more) by a guy of modest means buying her some paintbrushes than some money-bags kind of guy buying a piece of expensive jewelry. It's that he's showing her investment in her specifically that's important.

But the giving of gifts (especially gifts that show investment in who she is as a person), really hits the right evolutionary buttons because it communicates investment in her as a specific woman on the part of the man. Like, he's taken some of the money he's worked for and used it to procure something to give to show his affection and investment toward the woman in question... and not some other woman.

Now, modern people might have lost this meaning consciously. But evolutionarily speaking, novelty and gift items based around hobbies are a luxury and register as such. Paintbrushes now, might be something you could pick up for $3 at a bargain bin. But in nomadic times, an item as mundane as paintbrushes would be the epitome of luxury. And so, subconsciously, when a  man buys a woman a gift item, even if it's modest, it will register physiologically and emotionally as a signifier that a man has the capacity to provide for all the basic needs and then some. As he has bought her an item that's for fun and enjoyment and not for survival.

It's like a little birdie that collects trinkets to attract his mate. But it's not about the trinket or how much it costs, it's about the meaning it lights upon. And most importantly, it shows that he's gone out and done the work with his lady in mind.

I would agree to some degree. Then again, I would say that women simply want a generous man, someone who is ready to give, more than what he receives.

What value do millions have if you're not able to utilise them because you can't because your man is mean and stingy? I think that's how it works unconsciously.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Truth Addict said:

I would agree to some degree. Then again, I would say that women simply want a generous man, someone who is ready to give, more than what he receives.

What value do millions have if you're not able to utilise them because you can't because your man is mean and stingy? I think that's how it works unconsciously.

Exactly. I find the trait of generosity to be very appealing in a man, regardless of how great or modest his means are. It just has a nice feel to it that he isn't so attached to the fruits of his labor and so much in scarcity mindset that he's afraid to give of himself... financially and otherwise.

Generosity conveys security, and scarcity mindset and stinginess are a sign of instability.