I don't find many enlightened professionals.

[wavydude]

18 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Fundamentally,  my question is, whether the current spirituality model is right or not.

I am making the claim that on a large scale, this model cannot be sustained.

So the answer should be, whether the current model should be changed or  not.

What model ? There is no model. It's not like once a year enlightened people gather up and decicde what will be the spirituality model for the next year. They just do what they feel like and for alot of them that is teaching and for others it's just living life so you don't hear about them.

9 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Leo did not become enlightened by koans. He took the 5-Meo.

If Leo's enlightened I'm the pope 

[Truth Addict]

12 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Leo did not become enlightened by koans. He took the 5-Meo.

Leo is not enlightened. He admits that by himself.

The tragedy, though, is that you're still focused on others, not listening to yourself.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Ibn Sina]

9 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

The tragedy is that you're still focused on others, not listening to yourself.

I can assure you that I am focused  on myself.

9 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Leo is not enlightened. He admits that by himself.

That is not my point. My point is your 'paradox', 'wisdom pieces' don't hold much value.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Truth Addict]

Just now, Ibn Sina said:

I can assure you that I am focused  on myself.

You wouldn't need to assure me if that was the case. You're focused on my opinion/judgement.

[Ibn Sina]

6 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

You wouldn't need to assure me if that was the case. You're focused on my opinion/judgement.

I am not trying to assure you, I just wrote it as a way to express. I don't care what  you think of me. All I am saying is your judgement has no logical basis.  You are just saying stuffs.

By that logic, I can say even you are focused on others. Yes, you TruthAddict are very focused  on others and you should focus on yourself.

I can also say, you are not a Truth Addict, you are only an Addict.
See,  I have no logical basis to back this up, but just like you I am also 'saying stuffs'. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[electroBeam]

@Ibn Sina Are you trying to figure out whether its possible to be enlightened and have a profession? Are you trying to figure whether the monastic lifestyle is a pre-requisite of enlightenment?

The truth of the matter is, enlightenment doesn't come from doing one thing over the other thing. It doesn't come from meditating all day, or choosing a monastic lifestyle or whatever. It comes from the state of your psyche. It comes from how sincerely you want enlightenment, how much you admit your fault, what you don't know, exploring feelsings and emotions that are uncomfortable.

The path to enlightenment is below your pre conceived ideas about what works for enlightenment or what doesn't.

But the real question is, do you have the balls to inquire about your insecurity which is scared that its doing the wrong thing to get to enlightenment? Do you have the balls to look into that? Or are you going to use the concept of the monastic lifestyle, over thinking about the best strategy to enlightenment, to trick yourself into not contemplating this insecurity? 

Enlightenment doesn't come from a monastic lifestyle, it comes from you not having the balls to inquire on uncomfortable things. 

[Ibn Sina]

21 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Are you trying to figure out whether its possible to be enlightened and have a profession? Are you trying to figure whether the monastic lifestyle is a pre-requisite of enlightenment?

The truth of the matter is, enlightenment doesn't come from doing one thing over the other thing. It doesn't come from meditating all day, or choosing a monastic lifestyle or whatever. It comes from the state of your psyche. It comes from how sincerely you want enlightenment, how much you admit your fault, what you don't know, exploring feelsings and emotions that are uncomfortable.

The path to enlightenment is below your pre conceived ideas about what works for enlightenment or what doesn't.

Good point

21 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

The path to enlightenment is below your pre conceived ideas about what works for enlightenment or what doesn't.

But the real question is, do you have the balls to inquire about your insecurity which is scared that its doing the wrong thing to get to enlightenment? Do you have the balls to look into that? Or are you going to use the concept of the monastic lifestyle, over thinking about the best strategy to enlightenment, to trick yourself into not contemplating this insecurity? 

Enlightenment doesn't come from a monastic lifestyle, it comes from you not having the balls to inquire on uncomfortable things

I think I have the balls to do anything. I can inquire my way to my deepest possible insecurities, I can explore my emotions and feelings to the depths that would leave me wounded and bloodied. I could kill if that  would get me enlightenment.  All I am saying is I have the balls .
But I am not sure, that just because I have the balls, I can get enlightened because I don't exactly know what it means to 'explore emotions and insecurities'. I have done hours of self inquiry and meditations.I have gone deeply to my psyche and have had good and bad experiences. I have never went 'Woah, that was horrifying, I am never doing that again'.But that hasn't lead to my enlightenment. 

"Enlightenment doesn't come from a monastic lifestyle, it comes from you not having the balls to inquire on uncomfortable things"
I have the balls to do any uncomfortable stuffs. I could kill if that would lead to enlightenment. But I don't think it's simple as having the balls. But rather about somehow starting a chain reaction in the psyche that leads to the realization. (which the mind /ego may resist, that is where huge balls are needed)

Adi Shankara got his chain reactions started when he was 13, he got enlightened at such a young age.  He did it somehow which most people can't.

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Truth Addict]

39 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

That is not my point. My point is your 'paradox', 'wisdom pieces' don't hold much value.

Oh, and you think you get more understanding without wisdom? How contracted of a worldview is that! You've basically fallen into the trap of mainstream science, closed-mindedness.

Wisdom is what expands your understanding beyond its current limitations. You think that logic is the ultimate tool for understanding reality? This means that you have very little wisdom. The more wisdom you acquire, the more tools you will have in your pocket, and logic can still be one of them. Keep your mind open if you want to learn, cuz you ain't gonna learn too much by sticking to your current paradigms.

35 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

I am not trying to assure you, I just wrote it as a way to express. I don't care what  you think of me. All I am saying is your judgement has no logical basis.  You are just saying stuffs.

It might not have a logical basis, but that's where you could expand your paradigms to include non-logical bases as well. Non-logical claims are way more valid and valuable than the logical ones. They are way less contracted and way more flexible. It's something that requires turning inwards to see.

35 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

By that logic, I can say even you are focused on others. Yes, you TruthAddict are very focused  on others and you should focus on yourself.

I can also say, you are not a Truth Addict, you are only an Addict.
See,  I have no logical basis to back this up, but just like you I am also 'saying stuffs'. 

Again, there are a lot more tools than logic, such as intuition and foresight. Of course, these tools have no logical basis. BUT, does logic itself even have a logical basis in the first place? Or is logic fundamentally illogical? Be careful with your answer.

But let's say that you're right and I am very focused on others, the difference between me and you would be that I don't care about changing the world as much as you do. So, even if your claim is true, it's irrelevant to my situation, while mine is relevant because mine will help you move towards your goal.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Odysseus]

@Ibn Sina First Jesus was a carpenter then he became a healer, public speaker and politician.

But I'm curious now, why would an enlightened person trade stocks? Doesn't enlightenment come with the responsibility to raise the overall consciousness? Don't you realize that you're not seperated from anything else, so trading stocks would hurt yourself, because the stock market is build on speculation and exploitation, a game where more people lose than win?

I'm stoked to participate in this mental masturbation session  But realize that this concepts of  what enlightenment is, how an enlightened person acts etc. are traps.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Odysseus

[electroBeam]

53 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Good point

I think I have the balls to do anything. I can inquire my way to my deepest possible insecurities, I can explore my emotions and feelings to the depths that would leave me wounded and bloodied. I could kill if that  would get me enlightenment.  All I am saying is I have the balls .
But I am not sure, that just because I have the balls, I can get enlightened because I don't exactly know what it means to 'explore emotions and insecurities'. I have done hours of self inquiry and meditations.I have gone deeply to my psyche and have had good and bad experiences. I have never went 'Woah, that was horrifying, I am never doing that again'.But that hasn't lead to my enlightenment. 

"Enlightenment doesn't come from a monastic lifestyle, it comes from you not having the balls to inquire on uncomfortable things"
I have the balls to do any uncomfortable stuffs. I could kill if that would lead to enlightenment. But I don't think it's simple as having the balls. But rather about somehow starting a chain reaction in the psyche that leads to the realization. (which the mind /ego may resist, that is where huge balls are needed)

Adi Shankara got his chain reactions started when he was 13, he got enlightened at such a young age.  He did it somehow which most people can't.

 

You also need to ask yourself what enlightenment means to you, because IT DEFINITELY DOES mean very different things to different people. 

What is it that you really want? What is it that you're looking for? And does what you're looking for even exist in the first place? 

Maybe inquiring into WHY you want enlightenment would be valuable. What is it about this concept/idea of enlightenment that's got you so rattled? What is that source that is making you want to be enlightened? Where is that source coming from? What does it feel like? Is it a thought? Who created it?

You may find that some of your intentions are grounded on things which either aren't real, are not genuine or grounded on insecurities or some other egoic drive. 

When you go this direction, i.e. going really meta on what you're doing, what your motivations are, etc this tends to be the right way. Look at the direction you're taking now. Instead its coming up with a hypothesis developed through analysing the history of a renowned spiritual being, and then trying to validate that hypothesis. 

Seriously contemplate why you even need to be enlightened to be happy? Its no good saying its because Leo told you for example. Why isn't it? Can you verify why for yourself Knowingly/through being?

[Ibn Sina]

1 hour ago, electroBeam said:

When you go this direction, i.e. going really meta on what you're doing, what your motivations are, etc this tends to be the right way. Look at the direction you're taking now. Instead its coming up with a hypothesis developed through analysing the history of a renowned spiritual being, and then trying to validate that hypothesis. 

Seriously contemplate why you even need to be enlightened to be happy? Its no good saying its because Leo told you for example. Why isn't it? Can you verify why for yourself Knowingly/through being?

I want enlightenment for the reason same reason Buddha and Leo wanted enlightenment, to have a better life, and to eliminate suffering arising from the ego. I think 'why' I need enlightenment is not that difficult to answer. It's like asking, why I exactly do I want to take 5-meo DMT.

[Ibn Sina]

2 hours ago, Odysseus said:

But I'm curious now, why would an enlightened person trade stocks? Doesn't enlightenment come with the responsibility to raise the overall consciousness? Don't you realize that you're not seperated from anything else, so trading stocks would hurt yourself, because the stock market is build on speculation and exploitation, a game where more people lose than win?

It's the same problem with you. You also don't understand the question I am asking. You can properly read the answers that I wrote to wavy dude, specially the "There are only 2 logical ways to answer" my post and also look at my original post. 
Why an enlightened person would go to stocks is just irrelevant, and thinking that they wouldn't because they want to raise consciousness is talking about the topic with an intellectual capacity of a 2nd grader. I can tell you exactly how an enlightened person would also be a stoke broker, but if you could think deeply, I wouldn't have to tell you.

If I asked the same question to a villager in a remote place in India or Pakistan, would  someone like Buddha be a buisnessman or a politician, they would also say- no, because they are  bad people but Buddha is a good person. They Would answer the same as you

Edited September 20, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[electroBeam]

4 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

I want enlightenment for the reason same reason Buddha and Leo wanted enlightenment, to have a better life, and to eliminate suffering arising from the ego. I think 'why' I need enlightenment is not that difficult to answer. It's like asking, why I exactly do I want to take 5-meo DMT.

inquire deeper into what's wrong with your current state of mind. Inquire deeper into where the suffering is coming from.

[Ibn Sina]

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

But let's say that you're right and I am very focused on others, the difference between me and you would be that I don't care about changing the world as much as you do. So, even if your claim is true, it's irrelevant to my situation, while mine is relevant because mine will help you move towards your goal.

Thanx for your 0.1 cents to solving the problem (though it's not a huge one).

[Ibn Sina]

1 minute ago, electroBeam said:

inquire deeper into what's wrong with your current state of mind. Inquire deeper into where the suffering is coming from

I do that and will do that every single day. I want enlightenment.

[Ibn Sina]

2 hours ago, Odysseus said:

I'm stoked to participate in this mental masturbation session  

This is a problem solving session, but I doubt you have anything high quality to contribute. A mental masturbation session would  imply it's directed at speculation without an intent to  arrive at a solid solution.

 

2 hours ago, Odysseus said:

But realize that this concepts of  what enlightenment is, how an enlightened person acts etc. are traps.

And yet you are the one to say that that an enlightened person is the one who would never go to stocks and would raise consciousness. You can't even see your own hypocrisy. Your thoughts are not even logical consistent and has a  bent of ego, instead of a bent of truth.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Truth Addict]

22 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Thanx for your 0.1 cents to solving the problem (though it's not a huge one).

You're blind, and that's your problem. I can't give you eyes.

[Ibn Sina]

7 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

You're blind, and that's your problem. I can't give you eye

You are even blinder than me. How do I know? My intuition (not logical basis).

The way I know how much you say is near the truth is that I have sensor for detecting what works and what reduces suffering and improves my life. My sensors didn't fire up, that's why I can't give put your ideas  on a higher rank.
While Leo's ideas fires up my sensors like crazy.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Truth Addict]

@Ibn Sina

You don't know what you're talking about. You don't know what intuition is. You confuse intuition for closed-mindedness. You're closed-minded and cannot be helped.

I wasn't asking for help because I have no problems to begin with. If I have no problems, then I must be having some higher wisdom that you don't have.

[Ibn Sina]

9 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

You don't know what you're talking about. You don't know what intuition is. You confuse intuition for closed-mindedness. You're closed-minded and cannot be helped.

 

So are you. You are even closeminded then me you have no idea of  what intuition is, and you don't know what you are talking about. And I can make those claims the same way you are making about me, that is with 0 logical basis, but pure intuition as you claim to be using.

 

9 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

I wasn't asking for help because I have no problems to begin with. If I have no problems, then I must be having some higher wisdom that you don't have

I was asking for help and you gave me your 0.01 cents and I said THANK YOU. So what's the problem here?

I don't want you to again answer me again with labels like- you are closeminded, you don't know x y z, because that would  be repetition. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Ibn Sina