Changing the World

[StephenK]

If everything is perfect the way it is, why change anything? Isn't the desire to change what has manifested (through thought/future/past) just a movement away from love/acceptance of the present moment?

[tsuki]

The present moment is what it is for a reason that does not originate in the egoic mind. The body-mind-person is there for a reason as well, it is a puzzle that fits into what is.

The mission called "purpose of life" does not come via egoic construction, but acceptance and surrender. This is why developing vision seems like remembering things that were forgotten.

[Aakash]

The purpose of life is to feel. 

it is in feelings of expressions that we get to know another and that first must come from knowing yourself

when you see good and bad, we are what is good ... what is bad 

that is needed for this to be good and that is need for that to not be that bad

Really we change the world by pointing out the limitations of our predecessors and we add on top of their healthy positive contributions. 

they were there for you and everyone else to enjoy 

that is why we still use stuff made thousands of years ago. 

to make something last 

it must make people feel

 what good feeling can you create? 

[Truth Addict]

2 hours ago, StephenK said:

If everything is perfect the way it is.

'Everything is perfect' is a pointer, not the actual case. Everything is both perfect and not perfect, and neither. Depending on how you look at it.

Once you have seen the pointer as it is, you will be able to see what it's pointing to.

2 hours ago, StephenK said:

why change anything?

Why go to the toilet?

2 hours ago, StephenK said:

Isn't the desire to change what has manifested (through thought/future/past) just a movement away from love/acceptance of the present moment?

No. It's not possible to 'move away' from the love/acceptance because love/acceptance is all there is. Even the thoughts, the resistance, the 'moving away', and the desires; are all love/acceptance.

1 hour ago, tsuki said:

The present moment is what it is for a reason that does not originate in the egoic mind. The body-mind-person is there for a reason as well, it is a puzzle that fits into what is.

The mission called "purpose of life" does not come via egoic construction, but acceptance and surrender. This is why developing vision seems like remembering things that were forgotten.

Not disagreeing with what you're saying, but asking a genuine question: Is the 'ego' that you're talking about a pointer or an actual thing or both or neither?

@Aakash Interesting update! Yet, there's more.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Aakash]

4 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Interesting update! Yet, there's more.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what do you mean  i didn't understand you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

shehsheshehsheshe

Edited September 19, 2019 by Aakash

[tsuki]

39 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Is the 'ego' that you're talking about a pointer or an actual thing or both or neither?

I am not talking about the 'ego' at all. Notice that I referenced 'the ego' to remove it out of the picture.
Nothing positively descriptive was said about it.

The ego is something only through appearance. In actuality, there is none.
It is a pointer, if you will, but pointing towards nothing.

Edited September 19, 2019 by tsuki

[ShivaShakti]

Because non-duality is seeing the one in the two. Everything is perfect as it is, but things are still pretty messed up. Nothing matters and everything matters. It's more fun to play the game than put down the controller. After all life is a dance, and you are life. All conflict is ignorance.

[Truth Addict]

4 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Notice that I referenced 'the ego' to remove it out of the picture.
Nothing positively descriptive was said about it.

Okay, but why remove it out of the picture? (let alone the paradoxical process of removing what never was).

[tsuki]

3 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Okay, but why remove it out of the picture? (let alone the paradoxical process of removing what never was).

Because without it, the original question is nonsensical.

[mandyjw]

What is desire without the mental construct of time? What does that feel like? It feels like bliss or truly feeling alive. If you don't allow that state through repression of desire you can't really experience the present moment. 

The problem is that sometimes we experience the flash of a real desire and feel the bliss of it and let it knock us off our feet. Then we go right into agony of trying to figure out how we can manifest it too soon or why we can't, and since we do this so much we start to think that desire itself is bad. The trick is to learn to stay with the desire/vision without bringing in resistance and inner conflict. 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by mandyjw

[Aakash]

What is life but the understanding of god ?

what is enlightenment but the understanding of life ?

what is god but the understanding of enlightenment?

 

hey swami-ji who is god ? 

ohh my boy, look into the sky there you will see bhagawan(god) 

hey swami-ji what is the sky? 

ohh my boy, look up and it will be the blue and white sea 

 

 

 

[Jkris]

@StephenK 

Just my intellectual understanding.

I am not sure on this stand point by all enlightened - some after realisation take responsibility to do selfless service - education hospitals Yoga meditation centers ?

Some just impart to seekers who go for guidance and dont bother at all to the "idea of changing the world" - because everything keeps changing why bother to change something which is allready continously changing.What ever change brought is going to change again.so whats the point ? The world is an illusion why bother to change chase the illusion ?

[Truth Addict]

3 hours ago, tsuki said:

Because without it, the original question is nonsensical.

It gets tricky, but I see what you mean.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Nahm]

15 hours ago, StephenK said:

If everything is perfect the way it is, why change anything? Isn't the desire to change what has manifested (through thought/future/past) just a movement away from love/acceptance of the present moment?

All change is illusory, the actuality is pure unconditional blissful consciousness, so perfect, it’s taken to be changing ‘things’, to itself. 

[astrokeen]

@StephenK , you asked a great question in the OP. 

Unfortunately, as is often the case, any reference to a 'wrong' or undesirable' state of affairs is met with one-liners or brief responses referring to non-duality - all is perfection, all is god/you, or it is all illusory. I see this constantly on this site. So, the question is taken out of context and basically shot down by everyone taking the high (non-dual) road. To say that all is perfection is a call to inaction and breeds apathy, not understanding.

Could we please agree to see the distinction: in an enlightened or ultimate state, which is not of this manifest world, all is one/perfection/god etc. While we grapple with duality in our daily lives, there are decisions to be made about right or wrong actions to accomplish specific aims, whether these pertain to earning a daily wage, caring for our families or voting for saner leaders.  

Let's try and keep the two separate.

[StephenK]

On 9/19/2019 at 11:21 AM, tsuki said:

The present moment is what it is for a reason that does not originate in the egoic mind. The body-mind-person is there for a reason as well, it is a puzzle that fits into what is.

The mission called "purpose of life" does not come via egoic construction, but acceptance and surrender. This is why developing vision seems like remembering things that were forgotten.

I can see that the loosening of the body-mind-person can be largely equated with the loosening of the Ego, but I do not see how the two are identical. For instance, one could drop the body-mind-person view and still be identified with something (something that is not the body-mind, like an idealized state of consciousness, or "purpose of life"). There seems to be an implication that if one drops the body-mind-person view, then anything left over is by definition not egoic, and is therefore 'God's will', or some similar notion. Could it be that the body-mind-person is but a subset of the larger Ego structure, and we falsely assume that when body-mind-person view has been dropped, ego has been dropped?

 

On 9/19/2019 at 0:04 PM, Truth Addict said:

'Everything is perfect' is a pointer, not the actual case. Everything is both perfect and not perfect, and neither. Depending on how you look at it.

Why would one choose to view something as imperfect when they know that imperfection is just a lens we use to view the world?

 

On 9/19/2019 at 0:04 PM, Truth Addict said:

Why go to the toilet?

Life becomes decidedly unpleasant if I don't.

 

On 9/19/2019 at 0:04 PM, Truth Addict said:

No. It's not possible to 'move away' from the love/acceptance because love/acceptance is all there is. Even the thoughts, the resistance, the 'moving away', and the desires; are all love/acceptance.

 I need to reflect on this statement.

[StephenK]

@ShivaShakti This pointer resonates with me. Thanks

10 hours ago, astrokeen said:

Let's try and keep the two separate.

Can they really be kept separate though? When we do, it's all rather confusing to be honest.

@Nahm I wish I could see what you're pointing to, but I cant.

[tsuki]

57 minutes ago, StephenK said:

I can see that the loosening of the body-mind-person can be largely equated with the loosening of the Ego, but I do not see how the two are identical. For instance, one could drop the body-mind-person view and still be identified with something (something that is not the body-mind, like an idealized state of consciousness, or "purpose of life"). 

They are not identical.
The ego is the appearance of personal will that is independent from the actual momentum of the present moment.
The body-mind-person is a piece of organic memory that stores the momentum collected by intentional interactions with the world.

The body-mind-person is your subconscious mind.
To identify with the body is to take all of its impulses as imperative and act in conformity.
The body has authentic impulses, but most of them are conditioned (organic memory) by society or your ignorant actions backfiring.

As it turns out, all of the authentic impulses of the body are good and surrendering to them is experienced as flow.
Entertaining the impressions that come from ignorance results in suffering.
Purification of the body is the process of learning to surrender to the good ones until only the biological momentum of life remains. "the natural state"

57 minutes ago, StephenK said:

There seems to be an implication that if one drops the body-mind-person view, then anything left over is by definition not egoic, and is therefore 'God's will', or some similar notion. Could it be that the body-mind-person is but a subset of the larger Ego structure, and we falsely assume that when body-mind-person view has been dropped, ego has been dropped?

The body-mind-person is not a view as I see it. Can you have a view if you don't think and rest in the instinct completely?

Edited September 20, 2019 by tsuki

[Nahm]

31 minutes ago, StephenK said:

I wish I could see what you're pointing to, but I cant

Oh yes you can. There is solace in understanding there is inspection work to be done. Even if it is shelved for the future, for a time that is right for you, the acknowledgement & understanding there is much more scrutiny of direct experience ‘on the bone’, is reassuring. 

[StephenK]

On 9/20/2019 at 5:20 PM, tsuki said:

The ego is the appearance of personal will that is independent from the actual momentum of the present moment.
The body-mind-person is a piece of organic memory that stores the momentum collected by intentional interactions with the world.

Ok that makes sense.

On 9/20/2019 at 5:20 PM, tsuki said:

Purification of the body is the process of learning to surrender to the good ones until only the biological momentum of life remains. "the natural state"

Yes, the body does not have many demands. All it wants is water, good food and a little tender love and care. It seems that the ego treats the body as a slave.

On 9/20/2019 at 5:27 PM, Nahm said:

Oh yes you can. There is solace in understanding there is inspection work to be done. Even if it is shelved for the future, for a time that is right for you, the acknowledgement & understanding there is much more scrutiny of direct experience ‘on the bone’, is reassuring. 

This inspection work hurts like a b**** at the moment. But I feel as if a momentum has overcome me and I will continue on with it regardless, even to my last day.

On 9/19/2019 at 1:01 PM, mandyjw said:

What is desire without the mental construct of time?

Simply a feeling? 

On 9/19/2019 at 1:01 PM, mandyjw said:

The trick is to learn to stay with the desire/vision without bringing in resistance and inner conflict.

I think I understand, but that seems like I would have to tear my mind apart, in a metaphorical sense. I hope I can get there one day.