Critiques of Zen Buddhism

[Truth Addict]

@Mu_

I don't have the numbers, but I have my personal experience. And compared to other people who hadn't suffered like I did, it's quite obvious to me how stuck they are.

The criterion is very simple; if you're not done seeking, then you're not enlightened. (@Bill W Here's your answer)

@ajasatya

Like the OP said, this is a thread for criticising Zen, not for motivating people for joining in. I criticised it by my own biased opinion.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Truth Addict

[passerby]

most the students that actually become enlightened continue on "chopping wood, carrying water". so obviously you never hear that xyz amount of xzy practitioners become enlightened. People have became enlightened thru every religion and sects of those religions. People have even became enlightened thru sports (rarely these days, due to huge egos created by being broadcasted on tv, and everything else involved with being a 'modern' athlete that keeps them bound to the world)

 

zen is certainly one of the more effective systems

 

 

[Bill W]

34 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Mu_

I don't have the numbers, but I have my personal experience. And compared to other people who hadn't suffered like I did, it's quite obvious to me how stuck they are.

The criterion is very simple; if you're not done seeking, then you're not enlightened. (@Bill W Here's your answer)

@ajasatya

 

Oh come on man. You don't want to go down that road of your suffering is greater than other people's suffering. That's the opposite of humility. 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Bill W

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, ajasatya said:

It's very noticeable how the teachings of Zen kinda kick you out of Zen after you reach a certain level.

This was my experience. I had 20+ years of zen/buddhist meditation and participation in sanghas.  I had always resonated most strongly regarding teachings of ego. Yet I never felt like I clearly “got it”. Then I had my first trip - a high dose of 4-aco-dmt. As “me” returned, it was clearly revealed and I thought: “So that’s what the awakened buddhists were talking about all these years!”

These days when I visit buddhist communities, I need to tone it down and hold back on some stuff - or they will kick me out ?

[Truth Addict]

@Bill W

I am probably the most humble guy in the world. Suffering taught me humility. But I won't lie to fake humility. It is what it is. It's obvious when you're an adult and others are toddlers.

I was not trying to prove that my opinion is true, but y'all are asking me. The problem is on your behalf, not mine, my friends. That's the pre/trans fallacy.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Truth Addict

[FredFred]

39 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

I am probably the most humble guy in the world.

lolwhat

[ajasatya]

@Truth Addict If your critique is highly biased, it's healthy to express it in your words: "in my experience, ...".

Here's an example: in my experience, Zen didn't provide me a rich mindset to come back to society.

[Truth Addict]

12 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

I think Zen is not fully efficient for killing the ego. Without enormous suffering, most practitioners will stay stuck at the level of the mind.

@ajasatya

@FredFred You heard me.

[Pramit]

Did you see zizek's critique of buddhism? Its not related to zen buddhism specifically but he does mention a few things that can be applied to zen buddhism as well. 

[Ibn Sina]

17 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

What are you going to do about it?

I will assume you don't know. Someone who knows it doesn't try to avoid answering a simple question. 
 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Truth Addict]

39 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

I will assume you don't know. Someone who knows it doesn't try to avoid answering a simple question.

Assume whatever you want, it's none of my business. I was/am not trying to convince you of anything, just so you know.

[MuddyBoots]

Alan Watts has done some quite good critiques of Zen Buddhism and its connection with Japanese culture although may be dated nowadays (he died in 1973).  It's the cultural clinginess which put me off, although that's not confined to Zen of course - many other traditions are like that too.

[zeroISinfinity]

It's not about culture, appearing as New cool kid among other cool kids. 

Practises are What really matters. You Can make all kinds of silly rituals, teachings, cool churches. But it boils down only on. 

You and practises. Nothing more. 

You Meditating your ass off. That's it, that is all it takes. 

Of course some add ons like ? Can Come as candy. 

Time for dream board Sorry guys. ????Yeah lets try

Edited September 19, 2019 by zeroISinfinity

[MuddyBoots]

Yes, but have you tried practicing with a traditional Zen group? When I used to in a Rinzai community, there was an almost macho disciplinarian atmosphere. We had to walk in right angles, bow the prescribed way, got whacked on the back with a big stick if we got tired. Someone would patrol the meditation hall looking for incorrect posture and correct you. We had to chant the Heart Sutra in Japanese, only had Japanese incense, bells & gongs etc. After a few years I couldn't stand the disconnect between the culture of my spiritual practice and my own culture. It was a huge barrier. That was the 1980s, it may be different now of course, but please can I have a spirituality which just fits into my ordinary life. 

Nick. 

Edit. 

It's as if the hardcore Zen people are trying to do a monastic practice in lay life. On reflection, it reminds me of how Islam has an almost monastic practice absorbed into lay life too. 5 prayers per day, fasting, robes (for women at least) , teetotal, lots of rules. Works for some people I guess. 

Edited September 21, 2019 by MuddyBoots
Addition.

[Sirius Orion]

@FredFred check out Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov , "What is Spiritual Master ?" chapter IV 

[How to be wise]

On 18/09/2019 at 2:12 PM, FredFred said:

Hi!

Anyone know of good critiques about Zen Buddhism? I tried to look online for some of those, but didn't find a lot of serious ones.

Thanks a lot!

How will knowing the critiques of Zen Buddhism help you?