My Review of Inner Engineering: Pros and Cons

[Angelite]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Salvijus The problem is that spirituality cannot be a static thing. If Sadhguru's words are taught precisely 1000 years from now, it will be as bad as religion because the society will have changed so much that adaptation will be necessary.

But I understand his concern. We wants to minimize devilry. Unfortunately he can't stop a stage Blue organization from avoiding devilry because such people are dogmatic by definition and he feeds into their dogma a bit.

After he's dead the whole thing will become another religion.

Kyaaaaaa I wanna post something?

You know what? That's why religion only teach the most basic things. 

It's very general. A basic guides. It doesn't tell you about specific things you should be. But very foundational. 

Up to the highest. (But this is optional)

 

If you don't get the basic right, then whatever you do, will be a deviation from Truth. 

 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Angelite said:

You know what? That's why religion only teach the most basic things. 

It's very general. A basic guides.

Religion teaches some very specific things, like stoning homosexuals or not eating selfish or not lusting after your neighbor's wife or praying 5 times a day facing Mecca.

Religion has always taught specifically absurd things.

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Yes he is because he is an expression of inifinite god. You only experience god in moments. He sleeps and eats brakefast in god mode. 

And Hitler too was an expression of God.

Quote

Even if it's not true. I think his opinion is much higher then yours anyways. 

Or do you think you're smarter then him and have a broader view of the world? If that is so... I most disspointed with your arrogance. In my eyes your not even 1% near him and yet you indirectly think he made a mistake and you know better then him. 

Lol

It's precisely this attitude which you display which leads to devilry.

The arrogant one here is you. You are blinded by your admiration of Sadhguru. And this blindness will lead you astray.

You are precisely the thing I'm warning about here. You've drunk the Isha cool-aid a bit too deeply. Precisely because it works well for you. You are not willing to kill your guru.

It's not about me being better than him. Sadhguru simply has blindspots just like all humans do.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Only a total retard could not have admiration for such a god like being. 

Sure seems that way. And Sadhguru is great. But it's precisely his greatness which will create blindness and devilry.

As if Jesus was not an admirable God-like being? Lol. Oldest mistake in the book. The more God-like the teacher is, the bigger the problem for his followers.

[Angelite]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Religion teaches some very specific things, like stoning homosexuals or not eating selfish.

???

Should I tell or should I not?

That's basic. Anything regarding family, genders, individual self etc.

Your explorations beyond all those are what I meant as not basic. Your expertise. 

 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

This devotion is part of the path and is essential to the path. It's not a mistake. It's a huge boost. 

The only place this devotion can lead me is to dissolution receptivity and grace.

You're making something which is inoscent and beautiful into a devilry.

You're not acknowledging that it's a double-edged sword.

It can lead to good things. But it can also lead to lots of devilry.

It's not merely other people's problem. It will be a problem for you and for Isha as a whole, as Isha becomes a collective ego it will commit evil in the same of your saint, Sadhguru, who will be rolling in his grave.

This is the main reason why I don't start an organization like Isha. Once a hierarchy is established, it will commit evil in the name of God. History clearly bears this out.

[tsuki]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

It can lead to good things. But it can also lead to lots of devilry.

It's not merely other people's problem. It will be a problem for you and for Isha as a whole, as Isha becomes a collective ego it will commit evil in the same of you saint, Sadhguru, who will be rolling in his grave.

That is how religions die, not how they live.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, tsuki said:

That is how religions die, not how they live.

As soon as you are born you start to die. Such is life

Isha must die just like every other living thing. It's only a question of time.

[Angelite]

??

[tsuki]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

As soon as you are born you start to die. Such is life

Isha must die just like every other living thing. It's only a question of time.

You are arguing against something that is live and kickin' on the basis that it will make a lot of hassle when it will be dying.
When people talk of religion in context of Actualized, your response is: 'this place will never turn into a cult as long as I'm here. After I'm gone it's up to you' (I'm paraphrasing).

What is the way out? A noose?

[Socrates]

@Leo Gura Really conservative approach of yours.

On the one hand yes it is true that teachings get corrupted after the master is long gone but there is no other alternative of bringing to the table spirituality in a society that has lost its touch with spirit.

It is like going to learn piano or martial arts and calling the teacher "dogmatic" because he has a certain procedure of teaching you. 

The biggest difference between Jesus and Sadhguru is that Isha is a step by step process that makes people more conscious. On the other hand, Jesus just shared his insights and they were massively misinterpreted.

It is like WW2, it had to happen in order for the collective consciousness to evolve but on a meta-perspective.

Realizing that Sadhguru is not only conscious but has a great understanding of the process of becoming so through Yoga and temples. Let's not be mistaken, these temples are exactly like psychedelics, they are technology, they are tools. 

Some people become more conscious through psychedelics some through the attendance of consecrated temples.

The overall progress of the collective consciousness through these technologies outweighs the potential negative effects.

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, tsuki said:

You are arguing against something that is live and kickin' on the basis that it will make a lot of hassle when it will be dying.
When people talk of religion in context of Actualized, your response is: 'this place will never turn into a cult as long as I'm here. After I'm gone it's up to you' (I'm paraphrasing).

What is the way out? A noose?

Right, well, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. That's key part of life. Evil is baked into life such that it's hard to eliminate.

14 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Once you do shambhavi you become incapable of harming anyone because happy people you can trust always. 

This kind of simplistic black & white thinking is precisely what leads to devilry.

Once people get it into their mind that some one technique makes them immune to devilry, devilry flourishes.

The only solution to devilry is constant vigilance and careful, not Shambhavi.

14 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Whatever you say I only have one response. You can't be right. If you were right and he is wrong that means his perception and understanding is lesser then yours.

There you go again. This kind of mindless black & white thinking is precisely the problem. You have it in your mind that Sadhguru can do no wrong and that no one else can point out a blindspot. This is very thing I warn my students about over and over again.

Self-deception and devilry is ALWAYS operative. I don't care how enlightened you are.

And if you think that you've found a permanent fix for devilry, that's the surest sign you're gonna be a devil.

14 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Maybe you're right. Truely. But my belief is very strong in sadhguru. I emphezies the word Belief. Because I am also conscious that it's just an assumption and that I could be wrong

It's hard to tell with you.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Socrates said:

The biggest difference between Jesus and Sadhguru is that Isha is a step by step process that makes people more conscious.

Almost all spiritual schools offer some step by step process. It doesn't stop devilry. A step by step process is by definition mechanical and unconscious. The more simple, linear, and mechanical you make spirituality, the more potential for devilry.

You guys are underestimating how relentless and sneaky devilry is.

The devil precisely co-opts the highest spiritual teaching. The devil eats gurus and his followers for breakfast. This is the devil's specialty. This is what he's best at: corrupting the highest spiritual teachings.

You've been warned.

But of course my warning will largely go unheeded. Such is the work of the devil. So carry on with your devilry. Just don't be surprised when you open the newspaper and see devilry on every page, including the spirituality section. And don't be surprised when you see Isha involved in some scandal.

And of course you must also realize, Isha will one day splinter into multiple rival factions who will start to fight with each other over Sadhguru's true intentions. Each faction will believe that they know best what Sadhguru really wanted. And they will have no qualms about attacking the other side. Because hey, Sadhguru is God and he told us what's right.

If you're serious about this work you should start to notice these meta-patterns of spiritual communities. All of this has been well worn throughout the last 5000 years of history. Nothing new or surprising here. It's all duality 101.

My only point is: don't take devilry for granted. Your mind is doing it.

[atlanticgirl]

@Jordan94 Yes, having attended and served many Goenka vipassana courses, I know this to be true. Initially when I started going to Vipassana, it didn’t bother me. But after attending 3-4 courses, and starting to serve, I realized that the amount of control Goenka established ‘to maintain the purity of the teachings’, seemed rigid and counterproductive. It says little about Goenka’s faith in the teachings, when his most senior teachers are not allowed to actually teach a course. These teachers must refer to a manual for scripted answers to every type of question..  If someone were to say ‘I just experienced Nirvakalpi Samadhi, the likely response would be ‘ Return to the technique’. There was a situation years ago in India, where a 10-day vipassana course was about to get underway. Keep in mind that for the majority of people who go to a vipassana retreat, enormous effort must be made to organize oneself to take time from work, arrangements for family duties, etc, etc.   In this particular course, there was a local power failure, which meant they couldn’t play the recordings of vipassana instructions. One day passed, then the second day passed, and by the third day, the power still had not been restored. The teacher made the decision to go ahead and teach these students vipassana himself. When Goenka heard news about this later, he was heavily reprimanded. 

In my opinion, this level of rigidity in a leader or organization  is not healthy, nor is it conducive to the main objective, which is Self-realization. 

[whoareyou]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Almost all spiritual schools offer some step by step process. It doesn't stop devilry. A step by step process is by definition mechanical and unconscious. The more simple, linear, and mechanical you make spirituality, the more potential for devilry.

You guys are underestimating how relentless and sneaky devilry is.

The devil precisely co-opts the highest spiritual teaching. The devil eats gurus and his followers for breakfast. This is the devil's specialty. This is what he's best at: corrupting the highest spiritual teachings.

You've been warned.

But of course my warning will largely go unheeded. Such is the work of the devil.

It's ironic how much you preach about devilry, and open-mindness, yet you are not aware of your own devilry and blind spots. 

You call other people's attitude arrogant - yet the same could be said about yours.

I warned you about the devilry when it comes to tripping on psychedelics but you just ignored it, like the devil would.

The problem is that you don't embody your own teachings Leo.

Edited September 18, 2019 by whoareyou

[tsuki]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Right, well, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. That's key part of life. Evil is baked into life such that it's hard to eliminate.

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Almost all spiritual schools offer some step by step process. It doesn't stop devilry. A step by step process is by definition mechanical and unconscious. The more simple, linear, and mechanical you make spirituality, the more potential for devilry.

You guys are underestimating how relentless and sneaky devilry is.

The devil precisely co-opts the highest spiritual teachers. The devil eats gurus and his followers for breakfast. This is the devil's specialty. This is what he's best at: corrupting the highest spiritual teachings.

Humans do not become enlightened merely through human effort. Devilry is not a bug, but a feature.
That is why devotion is one of the most powerful tools of spirituality, but some people require a guru that will not confuse his persona with God.

Edited September 18, 2019 by tsuki

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

It's ironic how much you preach about devilry, and open-mindness, yet you are not aware of your own devilry and blind spots. 

It's not ironic at all. It's precisely my point.

I have taught from the very beginning that self-deception is a powerful force and I am not above it. Realizing that no one is above self-deception is a key step in reducing one's self-deception.

As soon as you think you're above self-deception, you're fucked.

This work is not about reaching perfection. This work is about constant vigilance of how your mind is tricking you.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Devilry is not a bug, but a feature.
That is why devotion is one of the most powerful tools of spirituality

Again, tell that to Hitler.

Every powerful tool gets co-opted by devils. The devil is not interested in co-opting weak tools. He want's the most powerful ones. The devil wants to corrupt the highest good, the highest truth. So you proclaiming that you have the highest good and highest truth only attracts the devil closer.

By not understanding this, devilry is created.

[tsuki]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Again, tell that to Hitler.

Your point only makes sense because you omitted half of the quoted sentence.
Putting Hitler on the same level as Jesus is just juvenile.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Putting Hitler on the same level as Jesus is just juvenile.

Actually it's not.

From the followers' POV, there is no difference. The person being worshiped doesn't matter. What matters it the conformity with which the person is worshiped and the worshiping itself.

Structure vs content is what matters. Devilry isn't in the content, it's in the structure. Christians have killed more people than Nazis.

Imagine if you will that more people end up killed in the name of Sadhguru than Jesus. If you don't take this possibility seriously, you're not understanding the depth of what I'm talking about.