No you are NOT Channeling anything! Stop bullshitting yourself.

[seeking_brilliance]

Just to be clear, I was not saying that all channeling is ego. I said all channeling is yourself. If you want a taste of infinity, explore your imagination. 

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

So are you operating under the paradigm that these entities are not “real” because they can’t be objectively proven?

 

[Matt8800]

52 minutes ago, TrynaBeTurquoise said:

So are you operating under the paradigm that these entities are not “real” because they can’t be objectively proven?

 

@TrynaBeTurquoise Apparantly, he is saying that they can be real, but ONLY if the person has not taken psychedelics. He included a disjointed justification for his belief of every other person's experience based on only his personal experience.

@whoareyou 's claim is that shamans, and anyone else that takes the shamanic path involving psychedelics, have been deluding themselves for thousands of years and somehow he knows better than ALL of them.

Im not buying it either

Edited September 17, 2019 by Matt8800

[whoareyou]

1 hour ago, Matt8800 said:

@whoareyou Ah, so you are saying that channeling can happen without psychedelics but somehow cannot happen with psychedelics? I dont think you've thought through the logic of your claim then

People are sometimes deluded by their ego but psychedelics are irrelevant. Some people are deluded, with or without psychedelics (you are a case in point).

If you are still certain of your claim, feel free to explain how you know psychedelics somehow restrict the process of communicating with spirits. How do you know its always ego if psychedelics are involved but not ego if psychedelics are not involved? Maybe its time to put on your thinking cap and go back to the logic drawing board.

You easily develop a defensive and adversarial stance. I wonder how you react to general situations in life if you are getting reactive to people that youve never met over something that is merely an unsubstantiated opinion (your sample size is one). Is it possible that the noise or your own ego drowns out any real spirit communication and so your experience may be different?

 

To clarify my point, "Paranormal" is a very broad term - a lot of things fall into that category. Have I experienced paranormal? Absolutely.

At the same time, I do not believe in spirits (separate entities). My approach is radical non-dualism. Radical is the keyword.

Shamanism, just like most other traditions, is not free of baggage that comes with it. If you observe closely enough, there are a lot of dualistic distortions, created by the ego.

If you want to be liberated, and be totally free - you will have to let go of all of that baggage at one point or another. 

Psychedelics are just a tool - if they are not used in a proper way - they can very heavily mislead you. People do it all the time, thinking that they are communicating with entities, channeling, etc - through their ego's interpretation. 

The biggest danger is coming in with pre-existing beliefs, and then have a very strong confirmation bias with psychedelics. Instead of liberating yourself, you end up further deluding yourself.

People on this forum love to laugh at conspiracy theorists and consider people like Alex Jones insane. Yet those same people, talk about those same entities, etc. The most famous one is David Icke, who drank ayahuasca (N-DMT), and then came up with the theory about reptilians, aliens, - thinking that he found the truth. According to LEO, that is all just a distraction, and nonsense. Well, that nonsense is no different than the people who take psychedelics, and report communicating with entities, channeling, etc. 

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by whoareyou

[whoareyou]

1 hour ago, TrynaBeTurquoise said:

So are you operating under the paradigm that these entities are not “real” because they can’t be objectively proven?

 

It's the same thing as you going to sleep tonight, have a dream about talking with aliens, and then when you wake up - tell everyone about your experience and say that they are "real" - because you saw them and experienced them.  You also will tell us that they told you they are coming to earth "in 7 days". 7 days pass and they never show up - it was just a product of divine imagination, nothing more.

If you noticed clearly enough - your dreams are heavily influenced by your thoughts before the dream.

The same applies to having that experience with psychedelics, it's just part of the divine imagination.

You can say that this "reality" is not real, but I would tell you that it's as "real" as it gets. Coherence and continuity are the key.

Why did the predictions by Terence Mckenna that were based on his experience with psychedelics did not come true? Because yes objectively speaking, it was groundless and misunderstood for what his experience was.

[Esoteric]

6 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

It's the same thing as you going to sleep tonight, have a dream about talking with aliens, and then when you wake up - tell everyone about your experience and say that they are "real" - because you saw them and experienced them.  You also will tell us that they told you they are coming to earth "in 7 days". 7 days pass and they never show up - it was just a product of divine imagination, nothing more.

If you noticed clearly enough - your dreams are heavily influenced by your thoughts before the dream.

The same applies to having that experience with psychedelics, it's just part of the divine imagination.

You can say that this "reality" is not real, but I would tell you that it's as "real" as it gets. Coherence and continuity are the key.

Why did the predictions by Terence Mckenna that were based on his experience with psychedelics did not come true? Because yes objectively speaking, it was groundless and misunderstood for what his experience was.

@whoareyou When you talk to a relative don't you as an entity communicate with another entity? In the relative sense. You are as much spirit as a machine elf or an arch angel. I am not saying it's still not "divine imagination", in the end it is the grandest masterpiece made out of itself. But is it such a big leap to consider that there are entities not just in this "realistic paradigm" that we are in?

[Inliytened1]

My awakenings were natural.

But as Martin Ball said in his interview with Leo.. you can tell when something is Actuality or not.  Whether on or off pyschedelics this is probably the case.

When one has an actual mystical experience it is Actual and the difference is clear.   There is no denying it.

The ego actually dissolves in a complete non-dual state.  It isn't there.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Inliytened1

[Matt8800]

44 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

To clarify my point, "Paranormal" is a very broad term - a lot of things fall into that category. Have I experienced paranormal? Absolutely.

At the same time, I do not believe in spirits (separate entities). My approach is radical non-dualism. Radical is the keyword.

Shamanism, just like most other traditions, is not free of baggage that comes with it. If you observe closely enough, there are a lot of dualistic distortions, created by the ego.

If you want to be liberated, and be totally free - you will have to let go of all of that baggage at one point or another. 

Psychedelics are just a tool - if they are not used in a proper way - they can very heavily mislead you. People do it all the time, thinking that they are communicating with entities, channeling, etc - through their ego's interpretation. 

The biggest danger is coming in with pre-existing beliefs, and then have a very strong confirmation bias with psychedelics. Instead of liberating yourself, you end up further deluding yourself.

People on this forum love to laugh at conspiracy theorists and consider people like Alex Jones insane. Yet those same people, talk about those same entities, etc. The most famous one is David Icke, who drank ayahuasca (N-DMT), and then came up with the theory about reptilians, aliens, - thinking that he found the truth. According to LEO, that is all just a distraction, and nonsense. Well, that nonsense is no different than the people who take psychedelics, and report communicating with entities, channeling, etc. 

 

@whoareyou I think that is a more clear explanation of what you are trying to communicate but I still disagree. 

The claim that there are no spirits is just an assumption. I used to lean towards that belief but now I lean towards animism. My experiences in the occult has pointed towards animism. Animism also fits nicely with the belief that consciousness is the foundation of everything.

I have some questions:

1. If you say there are no spirits, due to no-dualism, would you also say that "other" people do not exist? (arguing that there is no such thing as "other" when clearly there are different subjective experiences is unhelpful) Either you would say that "other" people do not exist or you would say they do but spirits somehow cannot exist. Either way, I would definitely have more questions

2. If you say that there are "other" people but there are no spirits, what do you base your opinion on that the physical realm is the only realm that manifests duality? (that is an assumption)

3. if you believe in the paranormal, but you dont believe in spirits, what is your explanation of paranormal manifestations and how do you substantiate that?

BTW, yes, I do understand the nature of non-duality but I dont think it means that duality does not paradoxically also exist.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Matt8800

[mandyjw]

 @whoareyou Where does creativity come from?

[Inliytened1]

To add to my comment in a complete non-dual state the ego collapses so there isn't an ego there to be deluded.  You are complete Infinity aka God consciousness at that point.  It is pure actuality.

[OBEler]

whoareyou I appreshiate your topic. I was often in astral realm, I know for myself and from other astral travelers how quickly the ego deludes himself in some fantasy stuff. 

I NEVER experienced paranormal things in this plane, really, it was just more realistic than a dream. But I could easily made up some stories to believe this nonsense my ego wants to tell me

 

 

 

 

[whoareyou]

1 hour ago, Esoteric said:

@whoareyou When you talk to a relative don't you as an entity communicate with another entity? In the relative sense. You are as much spirit as a machine elf or an arch angel. I am not saying it's still not "divine imagination", in the end it is the grandest masterpiece made out of itself. But is it such a big leap to consider that there are entities not just in this "realistic paradigm" that we are in?

From the absolute perspective, it is just GOD that is playing all characters simultaneously with himself. From a relative (character) standpoint, yes there is you talking to a family member. Yet in this relative "realistic" paradigm it is still as "real" as it gets. Coherence and continuity exists- when you wake up the next day, your mom is still there, but the aliens that you saw in you dream are not, and you won't be able to find them anywhere.

1 hour ago, Matt8800 said:

@whoareyou I think that is a more clear explanation of what you are trying to communicate but I still disagree. 

The claim that there are no spirits is just an assumption. I used to lean towards that belief but now I lean towards animism. My experiences in the occult has pointed towards animism. Animism also fits nicely with the belief that consciousness is the foundation of everything.

I have some questions:

1. If you say there are no spirits, due to no-dualism, would you also say that "other" people do not exist? Either you would say that "other" people do not exist or you would say they do but spirits somehow cannot exist. Either way, I would definitely have more questions

2. If you say that there are "other" people but there are no spirits, what do you base your opinion on that the physical realm is the only realm that manifests duality?

3. if you believe in the paranormal, but you dont believe in spirits, what is your explanation of the paranormal and how do you substantiate that?

There is a difference between a belief and actual knowing as @Inliytened1 has pointed out. When you go outside and see the sun - there is a knowing, you don't have to believe in the sun being there. I don't believe in spirits, just like I don't believe in a Santa Claus (from a relative standpoint). Am I open to that possibility and experience? Absolutely

To answer your questions:

1. From the absolute perspective - other people are just other versions of yourself. It is all GOD that is playing all of those characters simultaneously. They are not actual separate entities .

From a relative standpoint - of course anything is possible, but so far, I have not found it to true, nor has it been demonstrated by anyone else that it's a public knowledge. And even if they do happen to exist - those "spirits" would still be YOU, from the absolute perspective, it would still all be God.

Your dreams, and psychedelic trips are heavily influenced by one's thoughts. My claim is that all of which is experienced there should be seen for what it is - divine imagination and not objectively true in this "reality" - where coherence and continuity are present.

2. From the absolute perspective - it is all just god, weather its 1 or 1000 realms. From the relative perspective - I have not found it to be true, nor has anyone shown it to me. 

3. I don't hold a "belief" about weather paranormal exists or not. I have experienced "paranormal" (things that I can't explain), and thus I am open to to other paranormal experiences and things which people describe. But I will not adopt a belief because of this and start believing things without a direct knowing - knowing, and believing are very far from each other.

My post was specifically to address people who trip on psychedelics - instead of liberating themselves, they delude themselves.

Also, experiencing "paranormal" with a knowing that you experienced paranormal vs egoic narrative during a psychedelic trip are two different things. Paranormal term is very broad - people talk about a lot of things, and it doesn't necessarily mean they are all true, if some of them are true, you have to remember that as well.

My question to you:

Why is it even worth spending time and energy on "paranormal" stuff, when you could be spending that time/energy liberating yourself instead? From the absolute perspective it wouldn't be relevant.

 

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

My awakenings were natural.

But as Martin Ball said in his interview with Leo.. you can tell when something is Actuality or not.  Whether on or off pyschedelics this is probably the case.

When one has an actual mystical experience is is Actual and the difference is clear.   There is no denying it.

 

I agree with this 100%.

 

46 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

 @whoareyou Where does creativity come from?

From infinite intelligence/GOD/YOU 

Edited September 17, 2019 by whoareyou

[whoareyou]

1 minute ago, OBEler said:

whoareyou I appreshiate your topic. I was often in astral realm, I know for myself and from other astral travelers how quickly the ego deludes himself in some fantasy stuff. 

I NEVER experienced paranormal things in this plane, really, it was just more realistic than a dream. But I could easily made up some stories to believe this nonsense my ego wants to tell me

 

 

 

 

Yes this is very likely the case of what happened with you. Ego is a very sophisticated mechanism, that will work endlessly to create stories and narrative. Most important, is to be brutally honest with yourself and have genuine desire for truth/liberation.

With deeper awakenings, you will be able to spot ego within yourself and others much more easily. Doing psychedelics is not enough - actually observing the patterns of your ego in your everyday life is very necessary - how it creates narratives, stories, projections.

[Aakash]

2 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

how it creates narratives, stories, projections.

I have a question 

is it not really about these things but about not getting drawn into them as an identification story 

Like you haven't actually said no there isn't channelling your talking about the identificatin itself with the channelling. 

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

1 hour ago, whoareyou said:

It's the same thing as you going to sleep tonight, have a dream about talking with aliens, and then when you wake up - tell everyone about your experience and say that they are "real" - because you saw them and experienced them.  You also will tell us that they told you they are coming to earth "in 7 days". 7 days pass and they never show up - it was just a product of divine imagination, nothing more.

If you noticed clearly enough - your dreams are heavily influenced by your thoughts before the dream.

The same applies to having that experience with psychedelics, it's just part of the divine imagination.

You can say that this "reality" is not real, but I would tell you that it's as "real" as it gets. Coherence and continuity are the key.

Why did the predictions by Terence Mckenna that were based on his experience with psychedelics did not come true? Because yes objectively speaking, it was groundless and misunderstood for what his experience was.

The dreams when you go to sleep at night are just within the waking dream. And the imagination of the dreams/psychedelics are within the imagination that consists of the conventional waking reality as a whole.

Mckenna may have misunderstood his experiences, but that doesnt discredit the value that the experiences had on him and his larger influence on expanding the collective consciousness through his work, leading to more open mindfulness.

[whoareyou]

8 minutes ago, Aakash said:

I have a question 

is it not really about these things but about not getting drawn into them as an identification story 

Like you haven't actually said no there isn't channelling your talking about the identificatin itself with the channelling. 

As a result of observing how it creates those narratives, you will not be drawn to them, or be identified with the story. It will just be a story, that is all.

Channeling is just another story/narrative created by the ego , especially when we talk about psychedelic trip reports.

7 minutes ago, TrynaBeTurquoise said:

The dreams when you go to sleep at night are just within the waking dream. And the imagination of the dreams/psychedelics are within the imagination that consists of the conventional waking reality as a whole.

Mckenna may have misunderstood his experiences, but that doesnt discredit the value that the experiences had on him and his larger influence on expanding the collective consciousness through his work, leading to more open mindfulness.

Mckenna's contributions were valuable, but he was still heavily deluded. 

Yes the dreams at night are within the waking dream - yet there is still a big difference between them as far as your experience is concerned from a relative perspective. Coherence and continuity are present in the waking dream, and not during your sleep at night.

Edited September 17, 2019 by whoareyou

[Aakash]

@whoareyou  aahh i gotcha, but this doesn't mean it can not be explained, the complexities of life and the infinite intelligence of it , still reside in it

although you can say the I AM presence is mysterious in its absolute nature, without actual reasoning or method. 

Still in a sense, the absolute truth is the absolute truth dualistically. Even the words Leo uses or anyone for that matter 

ego, spiral dynamics, etc.. etc.. 

but they're just all 2nd order, to 1st order experience I AM, and they are ultimately dualistic life itself and therefore the absolute truth and alignment with it, is the very set up for a profound life! so i wouldn't knock what is being said here, because you are the I AM presence and the truth of the situation as your explaining it is in first order. We should use 2nd order language, there is where life is the best.   EVEN if it's still being observed by I AM. You can't escape life and what this is , is a forum for teaching and learning that 2nd order dualistic language in 1st order terms. Or for more spiritually advanced people using direct 1st order 

2nd order (dual)  >> 1st order language (non-dual, which is still dual) >> complete direct experience I AM 

pointers of pointers of pointers. 

LOL i just realise you don't actually get anything from enlightenment, if i'm upset of something. i'm still going to be upset, that comes with personal development work. but having direct consciousness of yourself as this I am presence is what eliminates the fear and probably as it said lets you be more producive, and creative rather than reactionary. Because you don't get drawn into the story and can just deal with it, with a calm mind. so the results will definitely be better

which now means i also need to 100% complete the life purpose course. 

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Aakash

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

10 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

As a result of observing how it creates those narratives, you will not be drawn to them, or be identified with the story. It will just be a story, that is all.

Channeling is just another story/narrative created by the ego , especially when we talk about psychedelic trip reports.

Mckenna's contributions were valuable, but he was still heavily deluded. 

Yes the dreams at night are within the waking dream - yet there is still a big difference between them as far as your experience is concerned from a relative perspective. Coherence and continuity are present in the waking dream, and not during your sleep at night.

So what you are saying is in your original post, that the user of the psychedelic does not actuality channel something into their direct experience, but it is their ego? I get what you are saying in that "spiritual" people can have big egos but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that their ego is constructing something else on top of the layer of that actual direct experience of whatever phenomena? 

[whoareyou]

19 minutes ago, TrynaBeTurquoise said:

So what you are saying is in your original post, that the user of the psychedelic does not actuality channel something into their direct experience, but it is their ego? I get what you are saying in that "spiritual" people can have big egos but wouldn't it be more accurate to say that their ego is constructing something else on top of the layer of that actual direct experience of whatever phenomena? 

Yes the person who is tripping on a psychedelic is not actually channeling anything - it is a story that their ego creates during their trip. 

And yes, their ego is constructing a story, out of divine imagination that a person experiences during the trip.

Instead of having a breakthrough awakening experience, the person's ego deludes them with the story by always having a subject-object narrative.

When you take psychedelics(those on which your ego is still present (non 5-meo freebase that you smoke) - your aim should be to  observe the ego and it's patterns - not get engaged in stories that your ego creates. That is of course, if your aim is to be liberated and to awaken.

@Aakash

Yes there are no super powers that come with "enlightenment". It is also not some kind of super-human achievement. Hence why I recommended you to stop seeking  

[Inliytened1]

I think the key distinction here is - is the paranomal directly experienced in a non-dual state.  The answer is no because a non-dual state is a state of pure Being - formlessness.

Note that Reality is a Mind.  Therefore everything is imagination.  It is all imagined by God.

There is no difference between imaginary and real.  Those are dualities.   Once this is realized and the materialist paradigm shattered, all things are possible.   

There are different levels of consciousness.  There are levels of dual consciousness (the relative or form) and there is Absolute non-dual consciousness.  Non-dual consciousness is pure Actuality - the present moment.

The paranormal must exist in dual consciousness - but if it exists it does so at a totally different level of consciousness then the average human level.   Therefore since the paranomal dwells within form or relative consciousness it is highly subject to delusion and can be a big trap of the ego - because you are still the ego at this level of consciousness.   I am open minded to the fact that the paranormal exists - because again - since reality is a mind there is no difference between imagination and reality.  it must exist at a highly elevated level and one must be very careful not to fall into a trap of the ego here.    I'm sure many do.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Inliytened1