No you are NOT Channeling anything! Stop bullshitting yourself.

[Nahm]

@whoareyou  Maybe it’s all part of a growth - self discovery process, and if someone doesn’t like it, they’re free to change the channel. 

Outside of accuracy, actuality, wether it’s “true” or not, etc...what is the concern you have for those channeling, talking to entities, etc? 

That the delusion will have a negative pact on their health, their life, opportunities....?

What is the possible misguidance of it, & potential fallout?

Just curious. Thanks. 

[remember]

@whoareyou whatever a person is channeling it is an entity aspect of consciousness or the sublime and probably has some ego to it. of course the ego can come in through the backdoor of course entities use ego and sometimes ego uses entities. that’s why every „channeling“ is something that needs preparation and also needs to be worked on afterwards. channeling is not just for amateurs. it’s something shamans did for centuries and the hows are not just learned through a onetime experience. 

[whoareyou]

@Nahm @remember

Read again my opening post, and the post which addresses an occultist here. In the examples that I have given - channeling, talking to entities, etc is an illusion - a narrative created by the ego. It is also a huge distraction from doing non-dual energetic work with psychedelics - it will be a huge obstacle from liberating yourself.

Learning to work with energy authentically, without being carried away in the stories created by your false sense of self is a big part of this work.

Drop the need to understand everything intellectually, drop the chasing, and drop the need to gain insights during your trips.

Less is more.

Believe it or not, but some of us here have even outgrown Leo's teachings. We didn't do it by intellectually trying to understand everything, sitting on a forum all day, mentally conceptualizing things, etc. Direct experience is the key - and psychedelics if used right (especially smoking 5-MEO DMT) can be a very efficient way to do it.

But ONLY, if you are using them the right way, and if you understand how to use them. A lot of people continue to be stuck for years, continuing to trip, thinking they are getting somewhere, when in fact the opposite is the case. Learning to understand how your own ego mechanism works, differentiate truth vs egoic projections, etc is very crucial.

What do you desire the most? Liberation or to partake in ego games?

The choice is yours.

[remember]

@whoareyou yes, everything is an illusion and it is also not. the question is what you are channeling? you are channeling alone by talking to me, i am an illusion, too. you don’t know if i speak from ego and what entity i am channeling as i only speak to you. maybe i channel a little bit of spiral dynamics, too.

what i‘m referring to is that without trying to understand it intellectually you also get lost in the ego game.

there is a possibility to channel oneself into madness, and also to channel others into madness, too. so i believe i understand what you are talking about. but i also see how channeling is a technique to understand ones relationship to existence and also to what is seen by many people as madness and irrationality in a more healthy way. channeling is something that exists for a reason. understanding what is speaking in us and others besides our egos and egos shadow demands an understanding of the mechanisms of how channeling works, which is not possible without going into it deeper and exploring it in a sense. a radio sender can play good or shitty music. irrationality is onesided when there is absolutely no experience of rationality to it. rationality about it is onesided if there is no irrationality to it. a sender can only channel what it percived in the first place.

[Nahm]

@whoareyou  Thanks for the reply. What’s the ‘other shoe’, for those who... believe in an “illusion”, live in “egoic narrative & distraction of the false self”, “chase intellectual understanding”, don’t learn to “work with energy authentically”, don’t drop the “need to gain insights”, if someone is “stuck for years”, who don’t investigate the “ego mechanism”, who don’t “differentiate truth vs egoic projections”....

What is the offset, the repercussion, the outcome? Where’s it lead is what I’m asking? 

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, whoareyou said:

You guys are not getting it - I am talking about a very nuanced thing here. No matter how much I try to explain, it's something that you need to be conscious of to understand.

You seem confident in your ability to distinguish what is real from what is imagined. I'm curious: how do you differentiate between real and imagined? 

[Matt8800]

2 hours ago, whoareyou said:

@Nahm @remember

Read again my opening post, and the post which addresses an occultist here. In the examples that I have given - channeling, talking to entities, etc is an illusion - a narrative created by the ego. It is also a huge distraction from doing non-dual energetic work with psychedelics - it will be a huge obstacle from liberating yourself.

Learning to work with energy authentically, without being carried away in the stories created by your false sense of self is a big part of this work.

Drop the need to understand everything intellectually, drop the chasing, and drop the need to gain insights during your trips.

Less is more.

Believe it or not, but some of us here have even outgrown Leo's teachings. We didn't do it by intellectually trying to understand everything, sitting on a forum all day, mentally conceptualizing things, etc. Direct experience is the key - and psychedelics if used right (especially smoking 5-MEO DMT) can be a very efficient way to do it.

But ONLY, if you are using them the right way, and if you understand how to use them. A lot of people continue to be stuck for years, continuing to trip, thinking they are getting somewhere, when in fact the opposite is the case. Learning to understand how your own ego mechanism works, differentiate truth vs egoic projections, etc is very crucial.

What do you desire the most? Liberation or to partake in ego games?

The choice is yours.

@whoareyou I stopped responding because you keep talking in circles, not realizing the inherent cognitive dissonance. 

If talking to "others" is just a distraction and not real, why are you talking to people on this forum? Do you think they are  not "real"? By talking to "other" people, arent you just being "carried away in the stories created by your false sense of self"? (your words)

What is the difference between communicating with people here and communicating with spirits? Do you realize the distinctions are just concepts you have invented, which just creates more duality?

Do you realize your words and actions are inconsistent? Wouldnt you agree that the path to enlightenment involves agreement between words and actions?

If there is no difference between "you" and "me", then how come you dont know my name, where I live, what I think, etc, etc, etc? While it is true that the foundation of everything is One, the duality that is right in front of your face you are trying to deny.

You seem to think that non-duality and duality are mutually exclusive. If I say my humanity is one and also said humanity is many, they would both be true statements, depending on the level you are looking at. Fundamentally, humanity is one but denying the many is an incomplete understanding.

Part of spiritual maturity is accepting paradox. You are denying the paradox. I think you need to think this through a little more....

Edited September 18, 2019 by Matt8800

[Scholar]

19 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

@whoareyou I stopped responding because you keep talking in circles, not realizing the inherent cognitive dissonance. 

If talking to "others" is just a distraction and not real, why are you talking to people on this forum? Do you think they are  not "real"? By talking to "other" people, arent you just being "carried away in the stories created by your false sense of self"? (your words)

What is the difference between communicating with people here and communicating with spirits? Do you realize the distinctions are just concepts you have invented, which just creates more duality?

Do you realize your words and actions are inconsistent? 

If there is no difference between "you" and "me", then how come you dont know my name, where I live, what I think, etc, etc, etc? While it is true that the foundation of everything is One, the duality that is right in front of your face you are trying to deny.

You seem to think that non-duality and duality are mutually exclusive. If I say my humanity is one and also said humanity is many, they would both be true statements, depending on the level you are looking at. Fundamentally, humanity is one but denying the many is an incomplete understanding.

Part of spiritual maturity is accepting paradox. I think you need to think this through a little more....

Spirits can become a problem when all they tell you is took on blind faith, like for example believing animals are lesser beings and therefore not treating them with respect. The devilry can exist in the spirits too, they can limit your identity, especially when they resonate with your energy that is already compressed. I think you are a good example for that. The devil will plant his seed among truth.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Scholar

[Matt8800]

8 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Spirits can become a problem when all they tell you is took on blind faith, like for example believing animals are lesser beings and therefore not treating them with respect. The devilry can exist in the spirits too, they can limit your identity. I think you are a good example for that. The devil will plant his seed among truth.

@Scholar Not only has no spirit commented on the subject of eating animals to my knowledge, neither is anything said when people have near death experiences when important truths are communicated by their guides.

Yes, some spirits lie and some tell the truth....just like people. Knowing this, we still scan for useful information from other people because sometimes the information is valuable. It is up to us to use wisdom in our discernment, whether from people OR spirits. 

Your assumption that one can take or leave claims made by people but are somehow required to accept all things on faith from spirits is erroneous due to a lack of understanding. Just like some people are consistently reliable in gleaning truth, some specific spirits are also consistently reliable. We tend to keep going back to sources we find are consistently reliable and avoiding the others.

While I know you feel strongly about veganism, your comments are not related to this topic/post.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Matt8800

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

@Scholar Not only has no spirit commented on the subject of eating animals to my knowledge, neither is anything said when people have near death experiences when important truths are communicated by their guides.

Yes, some spirits lie and some tell the truth....just like people. Knowing this, we still scan for useful information from other people because sometimes the information is valuable. It is up to us to use wisdom in our discernment, whether from people OR spirits. 

While I know you feel strongly about veganism, your comments are not related to this topic/post.

I think they are, because you have created a framework of belief based solely on experiences that you would deem supernatural. You justify these beliefs by putting authority into experiences that might be limited and limiting.

For example, of how many spirits do you know that report that slavery is wrong? You could insert any kind of act that causes suffering and find a way to ground your justification in a certain type of experience. To me that is similar to the type of "bullshitting oneself" that this topic is about.

[Matt8800]

16 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I think they are, because you have created a framework of belief based solely on experiences that you would deem supernatural. You justify these beliefs by putting authority into experiences that might be limited and limiting.

For example, of how many spirits do you know that report that slavery is wrong? You could insert any kind of act that causes suffering and find a way to ground your justification in a certain type of experience. To me that is similar to the type of "bullshitting oneself" that this topic is about.

@Scholar I never said that I base beliefs solely on supernatural experiences, just like you dont either. 

Equating eating meat to slavery is a false equivalency. Equivalencies are all subjective anyway. Some people insist that homosexuality is comparable to bestiality. While that is obvious that it is nonsense to us, people will argue that it is true because they believe that their subjectively is objective. You are certain that your subjectivity is objective simply because you feel strongly about it.

Notice how you think that anyone that disagrees with you and explains their reasons is "justifying" yet if you state your opinions, you are simply "clarifying".

BTW, throughout all of the history of the human race, slavery was considered subjectively perfectly acceptable. It was only the last couple hundred years that things started changing. The "wrongness" of slavery is a subjective value I have but nobody can make an argument that it is objective.

I had to come to grips with the truth that objective morality doesnt exist a couple years ago. It was a surprisingly difficult truth to accept at the time but it is still truth.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Matt8800

[Scholar]

8 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

I never said that I base beliefs solely on supernatural experiences, just like you dont either. 

Equating eating meat to slavery is a false equivalency. Equivalencies are all subjective anyway. Some people insist that homosexuality is comparable to bestiality. While that is obvious that it is nonsense to us, people will argue that it is true because they believe that their subjectively is objective. You are certain that your subjectivity is objective simply because you feel strongly about it.

I am not equating anything, I am creating comparisons. This is actually a very common misunderstanding found in moral philosophy, and it is usually done as a defense mechanism.

I was not comparing human slavery to animal slavery, what I did was use the logic you use to justify animal slavery to illustrate how one could use the same logic, the same type of thinking, to justify human slavery.

The point here is not that "human slavery is as bad as animal slavery", but that your thinking and the way you justify your beliefs is very obviously flawed if we were to use it in any other context. The inability to recognize the flawed nature of your thinking is the indicator for the bias you have towards a certain position. This is why it is very obvious to you how flawed these arguments are in a human context, but yet you accept the same type of logic in the animal context.

 

The thing here is that this illustrates how human beings were able to create moral frameworks, or any ideology, by create a cognitive dissonance which allows them to continue operating with contradictory beliefs. This is not about a difference in valuing a certain type of being, this is about how your ego comes to construct it's positions and their justifications. This is where devilry is found. All I can tell you is the same ego-mechanisms which allow you to discriminate against animals is the exact same ego-mechanism that allowed slavers to keep black slaves and be fine with it.

 

Again, it's not about positions, but about how we come to those positions.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Scholar

[Matt8800]

8 minutes ago, Scholar said:

 

Again, it's not about positions, but about how we come to those positions.

Your opinion about how people should arrive at their subjective positions is just your subjective position. You are getting wrapped up in shoulds and shouldnts. You perform intellectual gymnastics about others "justifying" their "biases" while blind to the fact that you are dong the exact same thing. You are adding a lot of invented complexity when maybe it is just a matter of a different view.

You believe that if I explain my position, I am "justifying". If you explain your position, you are merely "clarifying". These distinctions only exist in your head.

Leo has a video about shoulds and shouldnts that explains this well.

[Scholar]

Just now, Matt8800 said:

Your opinion about how people should arrive at their subjective positions is just your subjective position. You are getting wrapped up in shoulds and shouldnts. You perform intellectual gymnastics about others "justifying" their "biases" while blind to the fact that you are dong the exact same thing. You are adding a lot of invented complexity when maybe it is just a matter of a different view.

You believe that if I explain my position, I am "justifying". If you explain your position, you are merely "clarifying". These distinctions only exist in your head.

Leo has a video about shoulds and shouldnts that explains this well.

This is not about shoulds and shouldnts. It is about desirable ways of functioning within reality. You can function however you want, I am simply showing you where your kind of thinking will lead to. If you don't like human slavery, you better change the way you are thinking, because your way of thinking can be used to justify human slavery. It isn't about absolute shoulds, it is about hypothetical imperatives. The way you justify your beliefs contradicts your own beliefs. It is undesirable for you, if you were to objectively inspect how you act and what you desire.

Of course I am justifying my beliefs, everyone is. Again, it is not about the mere fact that I am justifying beliefs, it is about how we justify our beliefs. If you believe everyone can justify their beliefs however you want, then you for example wouldn't be referring me to Leo's video about shoulds and shouldnts. Just because you do not explicitely use these words does not mean you do not operate in a framework of shoulds and shouldnts.

Shoulds and shouldnts go far beyond language. This is not about "Should there be human rights?", but about "Do we want there to be human rights?". I think if you stepped back and reflected upon what I am trying to say, you would find that there are ways of thinking that you belief to be undesirable. Ways of thinking that will lead to your own suffering and to the suffering of those you love. You will realize that the way you think, the way your mind operates, is unsustainable for you. How could you, after all, criticize someone to discriminate against black people when you yourself to do the same to beings you put into special categories?

 

My impression is that you just haven't read a lot on this topic, and you also have not made yourself familiar with these basic philosophical principles. It's not about whether you should or shouldnt in an absolute sense, but whether you should or shouldnt if you want to reach a world that is more loving and "good", whatever you might view good to be.

 

But you are right, at this point it is getting off topic, if you want we can continue this somewhere else.

[Esoteric]

3 hours ago, whoareyou said:

 

What do you desire the most? Liberation or to partake in ego games?

The choice is yours.

Oh the irony..

[Richard Alpert]

 

[VeganAwake]

This can sometimes be a tough or confusing area to navigate through.

On the biggest picture possible nothing really matters.

That being said if you are trying to awaken you have to be aware of how sneaky, cunning and clever the ego is.

It will absolutely slide in the back door, and yes this is commonly referred to as the spiritual ego.

Remember the ego construct wants more... more more more...more power more money more knowledge more Love, more of everything there is no end.

In my experience the complete dropping of the ego constructs self agenda, and becoming nobody with no preferences, no it has to be this way or that way. Just simply staying neutral in all walks of life. And accepting not resisting the isness of each and every moment.

Remember nobody can enter the gateless gate.

So be nobody!!

[VeganAwake]

This is the pathless path the wayless way and the nothing that is something.

You can absolutely disagree and call it my ego but you will only be limiting your experience.

[Matt8800]

45 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Remember the ego construct wants more... more more more...more power more money more knowledge more Love, more of everything there is no end.

 

@VeganAwake You say that but yet you spend a portion of your time pursuing money, knowledge and love

The path you are describing is not the  only path. Ancient texts claim that Tantra is a faster path to enlightenment but more risky due to potential for unhealthy attachment. A book called "Desire - the tantric path to awakening" describes the Tantric ideas. I wouldnt completely dismiss it until it is understood.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Matt8800

[VeganAwake]

@Matt8800 I understand..

The pursuing is not the problem, it is the attachment and identification that one creates as they pursue. Or thinking they have found the answer and some external form.

Being able to take something or drop it without it affecting your emotions is taking the middle path and staying neutral non-attachment. Essentially having it or not having does not affect a person emotionally that has no attachments or desires. A person can take it or leave it either way.

I am currently reading a book that Osho wrote about Tantra it's very good so far.

In my experience it appears that everyone thinks they're talking about a different path but when you really zoom out it is the same thing just in different order. 

Basically everyone thinks they're describing a different path but it ends up back at the same ocean where it started.

It's just that some paths take longer to get to the same destination. But that's not necessarily a problem. 

As for as one practice being faster or taking longer than the other ....I believe that just depends on each individual.