Post-orange motivation / discipline issues.

[Yog]

Hey guys, I saw that there is a similar thread around, but i think this one has its own undertone.

I do think that most people around here have encountered this particular problem.
I would be glad to hear of your thoughts on this. As I am struggling it with it now.


My case:

-When I started doing the work. I did not have even a tiny problem with discipline and motivation, could get up as early as I planned, workout, meditate, read, learn and do all that, while maintaining consistency. It was the typical orange type of motivation, career, be the best one I could, eat healthy be fit as to have long living body, audio books, supplements ect. That was about 4-5 years ago. I was unstoppable beast.

-Than it all got softened as the years went by, green was pulling, started being spontaneous and more fluid, getting somewhat lost in other perspectives, experimented with alternative workouts, alternative food. Being indifferent, seeing different perspectives, not taking sides, exploratory and lacking direction. My discipline and motivation seemed to be 1/4 of what it was before. That is like 2-3 years ago.

-And in the most recent years I'd say I went to yellow. Solidish yellow. With turbulent and short green pass and a distant.... long... forgotten orange. Something is weird in there, but nevertheless ...I'll investigate. Its also where I did psychedelics , acid and dmt . There I got my non-dual dips, learned a lot, it was quite a contemplative period, both because of the psychedelics realizations and being able to think in yellow manner, rearranging things within myself. T. Still I was sitting in this non disciplined directionless space.

It feels like, as I grew more, and saw more, more aspects of myself, of everything.
This simplistic orange career/fitness focus, based on few things had no choice but to fall apart.
And right now it feels like disintegrated mess floating inside me.

Sorry if my language seems stiff and rigid. I do translate it in my head

How did you guys deal with these issues ?
Or do you see a hole in my thinking.




 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Yog

[bejapuskas]

1 hour ago, Yog said:

And in the most recent years I'd say I went to yellow. Solidish yellow. 

1 hour ago, Yog said:

When I started doing the work. I did not have even a tiny problem with discipline and motivation, could get up as early as I planned, workout, meditate, read, learn and do all that, while maintaining consistency. It was the typical orange type of motivation, career, be the best one I could, eat healthy be fit as to have long living body, audio books, supplements ect. That was about 4-5 years ago. I was unstoppable beast.

I think this is still orange motivation, wanting to be higher up in the spiral. I had a very similar problem and it really was the case that I was still orange at a time. But being orange is not bad, you shouldn't neglect that you can still use the orange part of yourself, it is a part of the path. Of course, if you think that I am wrong, just ignore this, but seriously contemplate this possibility.

I think you are just doing too much theory without practising properly. You will always know more than you actualize in real life, it's ok if it is like that, it cannot be any other way. If you want a more developed sort of motivation, do the practices, because it makes you feel better. What „higher“ motivation is there? Would anyone do the practices if it made them feel terrible and unhealthy?

If you realize some toxic behavior about yourself, be truthful, don't just overlook it, you have to be the real you in order to grow, if you are working on some mental construct of yourself that is not authentic, you aren't really progressing. You might already be yellow, but always stay humble, don't look down on other because they are lower stages or your past self! That is an important part of developing into yellow. 

Good luck! ?

[Yog]

@bejapuskas

Thank mate.

O yes there was and there still is orange motivation for sure. Now I just care way less about the very same things. I still do, but way less. It is mostly the survival/security needs that pull my orange out strong, i think. That is how it seems to me. I've put myself in unemployed position purposefully. To improve, get better at my craft. get disciplined myself, instead of outsourcing discipline. See what I am made of, I've become too sluggish. So far, I have failed.

Cant hear the alarms, oversleeping, junk food, games, you-tube. That wasn't the plan. In this regard, it feels I am back where I started. And I know I am better than this. I have done this before.

I do also resonate on the "too little practice" issue. Its also good to hear it from another mouth. I'll contemplate it more
Maybe I need more practice to embody that much complexity. Else it will spill and disintegrate.

I think I was unknowingly feeding the "instant gratification" beast for the last few years. Training myself for what I do not want to do. And now its got its chance to get out. That is probably a big part.

The only solid thing that works for me is: when I try to pull (remember) a state of being while being productive. That effortless flow. Than weight it vs what I have now. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Yog

[bejapuskas]

@Yog  

Check out the youtube channel Universal Man, I think it will be of great use for you. The guy talks a lot about dopamine detox.

I suggest you to free your mind of attachments and desires, breathe, let go of them. You need to realize what it is like to be willing to grow, what it is like to be willing to procrastinate and then when you let go, you get freedom from both.

I think people really have a rebelious nature, they don't do something because something/someone tells them, they want to do their own thing. Be your own man, be authentic, be boundless. Embrace your attachments and desires and then let go of them.

Take it easy.

 

[Yog]

@bejapuskas Thanks for the feedback mate.
I was thinking of doing that dopamine detox thing I'll check the guy out. Seen his channel around.
Cheers
 

[ttom]

Hey @Yog

I ran into a similar problem that I am still in the process of working with. As I began exploring post-orange ideas, I found it increasingly more difficult to differentiate between spiritual growth and spiritual bypassing. If you haven't heard the term before, spiritual bypassing is essentially using spirituality to turn a blind eye to your real human problems. There is a distinct difference between spiritual growth, and using spirituality to "escape" duality.

I've since discovered that spiritual practice fueled by pain is vulnerable to transforming into bypassing. While spiritual endeavors conducted out of love and passion seem more likely to result in an experience of genuine growth.

While my transition to green and beyond felt authentic, I hadn't effectively transcended and Included stage orange ( To use Ken Wilber's term ). This lead to problems with areas of my life that required orange like action, as I was viewing these needs as birthed off selfish and undeveloped motives etc.

To cut a long story short, my solution to this has been to revisit many aspects of my stage orange endeavors and attempt to solidify them In a way where the benefits can be present in my life, without being fixated or controlled by the orange lens of the world.

An example of this may be the ability to objectively conduct matters of business without being identified with the narrative of being a businessman. In this scenario, you are enabling yourself to create an income through orange processes, without being trapped in the ideals and beliefs that are part of that lifestyle. To use another of Wilber's ideas. You are turning stage orange from the subject into the object.

[Yog]

@ttom I do feel much the same way. I do intend to retreat and do some more focused orange type of work.

I still do have a issues with the motivation/discipline around it, but I guess I' ll figure it out.
I am motivated and driven to do them. But as if there is some subtle nihilism in the background, delaying, not making things concrete, not urgent, not that important , so I slack off.

I do also try to act and enforce action by bringing myself to the present moment, by sheer force of will, via reminder notes I have around. But being an introverted intuitive type of person that is not very good with sensory data I quickly start ignoring them.

It seems like this is something that is created by moving too fast on the spiral, it makes peoples "integral model" look like a Swiss cheese.
 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Yog

[Scholar]

Study Ken Wilbers work, it seems like you have overlooked the dimension of Lines/Streams of Development that is very important to understand:

 

I do not believe there is a person in this world that is solid yellow or even solid green. Even solid orange is extremely rare. To be equally development on all of these lines would be inhuman. Additionally, this entire model is highly biased, it is viewed from a lense that is heavily orange and blue.

Think about civilization 1000 years ago. It was almost pure blue and every single human being today that we would argue to be blue would to these people seem orange. In contrast, every single person that they would have back then be deemed orange would to us seem deeply embedded in blue. There is a sort of relativity that does not allow us to see beyond or current culture. We look at things from an orange vantage point, meaning that even human beings who only have a fraction of their psychology resonating with Yellow would to us seem radically different. I would argue that even Leo is mostly orange, when removing the relativity of cultural bias. Think about in 1.000 years, when there is a truly Yellow culture. Do you think they will look back at Leo and be thinking "That Leo guy was solid yellow!". Of course not, they will look at him as an orange meat-bag who showed some signs of yellow, but was so embedded in his culture that he failed to see how his entire psychology was molded by it in a way he could not possibly transcend.

Everything beyond orange, in any model an orange culture will produce, will be deeply biased and limited due the failure to predict what cannot be predicted. In other words, the data Spiral Dynamics and similar models are based upon are produced in a world that is inherently orange and blue. It cannot really look into the future, it is limited to data that has already actualized. What it can capture is the few advancements that we are making from our current cultural environment. The entire model will be structured in a way so that any slight deviation from current cultural standards will be viewed as an entirely new stage. But to future cultures who will have fully actualized these new stages, these deviations will seem like the opposite. They will look lower from their vantage point, whilst to us they look higher.

[bejapuskas]

@Yog  If you are having a nihlistic crisis - is the good feeling that is there in the present moment not worth the effort?

[remember]

@Yog  create a day to day scedule, work outside, maybe in your favourite cafe or library or whatever you can afford. at least leave the house in the morning, reconnect with life outside - it`s possible to stay at home for half a day very fast, as your home doesn`t give you the right signals it might feel too much like relaxation, every space is connected to habits, throw out all your games and gaming utensils. work on manipura not only the solarplexus part but also the navel part. work yourself through the chakras.

[Commodent]

Is there a part of you that feels helpless?

[bejapuskas]

@Yog  Also realize, that being purple doesn't mean jumping in fron of the train, being red doesn't mean not caring about your family, being blue doesn't mean intending to be absolutely powerless, being orange doesn't mean being immoral, being green doesn't mean being undisciplined, being yellow doesn't mean that you stop caring about the environment and being turquoise doesn't mean, that you stop acquiring empirical knowledge. It's the opposite.

[Yog]

23 hours ago, Scholar said:

Study Ken Wilbers work, it seems like you have overlooked the dimension of Lines/Streams of Development that is very important to understand

@Scholar
I was aware of it as I was writing it, wrote it that way for simplicity sake. Maybe "solidish yellow" is a bad wording of mine. Judging by my eye, and by observing my behavior around, I'd say I am cognitively and morally there and pivoting around. But I differently have a lot in orange, some green around, even higher blue. I haven't done any tests yet. And I differently need to read more into the model on these separate dimensions . I do have surface knowledge on them.
 

20 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

 If you are having a nihlistic crisis - is the good feeling that is there in the present moment not worth the effort?

@bejapuskas
Hm, its not really a nihilistic crisis i think, its that relativistic part of me validating and seeing truth in other perspectives. Its easy to use those perspective as excuses. That is in part what I am probably doing. It was way easier when I could not see them.  Just an observation.

The present moment is always worth it, fear is always absent, focus, joy and clear mindness is always there. I usually pull it out by sheer force of will, looking into details, wood grain, until things become HQ and weird, than decide from the depths of my being what to do and it feels effortless to do it. But I cant remember to always do it. Sometimes I get lost in unconscious chatter and inside debates for few days. I used to have reminders laying around saying "Present Moment Now" to trigger that, I just ignore them now. Couldn't find any other method to do so

 

16 hours ago, remember said:

create a day to day scedule, work outside, maybe in your favourite cafe or library or whatever you can afford. at least leave the house in the morning, reconnect with life outside - it`s possible to stay at home for half a day very fast, as your home doesn`t give you the right signals it might feel too much like relaxation, every space is connected to habits, throw out all your games and gaming utensils. work on manipura not only the solarplexus part but also the navel part. work yourself through the chakras.

@remember
Yea I do go outside by the river and read books there for hour or 2. But as a 3D game artist I do require a high preforming machine and few monitors to work. So I am glued in the case of work for now. When I do my work I feel great, I lose sense of time once every couple of hours. But when I don't, I just want to hit myself off the wall. So my working space has memory of both. It depends on what I do .. Working on reintroducing good habits back, 1h of working out and 1h of meditation seem to stick easily for now, will go further soon.

Thanks on the reminder for Chakra work! That has helped me a lot in the past. Especially with root chakra dis-balance due to psychedelics use.
What did you mean by navel part of the chakra vs the solar plexus part btw. Could you elaborate on that. So far I have worked on it as one piece.?
 

15 hours ago, Commodent said:

Is there a part of you that feels helpless?

@Commodent
There is, a small tiny voice, a tiny dot of helplessness. But I am kind of an Ox-head. I do not take it that seriously, do not know if it is good or bad. I do talk to it ... as to an undeveloped child I'd say. Never seriously thought about it much, its happening by default. ?

IT: We are doomed, its too late, nothing to do about it, you already fucked up, now you go towards the bottom.
Me: Shut up you little brat, you are just panicking, we've been here before and passed this. See all these good things that you have around: (line them up suckers), appreciate that . I am not always this harsh to it. But yea...sometimes.
 

8 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

Also realize, that being purple doesn't mean jumping in fron of the train, being red doesn't mean not caring about your family, being blue doesn't mean intending to be absolutely powerless, being orange doesn't mean being immoral, being green doesn't mean being undisciplined, being yellow doesn't mean that you stop caring about the environment and being turquoise doesn't mean, that you stop acquiring empirical knowledge. It's the opposite.

@bejapuskas
I was trying to figure out if this has any relation to the spiral at all at first. Can just be dopamine imbalance, basic personal development stuff. And it definitely can be, it probably is.

But even if it is just that, Orange being simpler than the above, has fewer tools to work with. So in this sense it is more contained.
Can deal with chaos way easier.

And green being the first stage that at least has the antenna to the infinite. Thence the relativism.
Can scale this chaos way more. And deal harder with it.

I have purposely placed myself in chaos.
And I deal way harder with it now, than I used to.

it is just this line of thinking that I wanted to bring forward.

Cheers

Edited September 12, 2019 by Yog

[bejapuskas]

@Yog  Even if you are high up there in the spiral, you need constant willingness to live joyfully. It is not like you get the status of a turquoise person and then you can go back to using stage orange methods to figuring stuff out.

[Yog]

6 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

It is not like you get the status of a turquoise person and then you can go back to using stage orange methods to figuring stuff out.

I am not quite sure what you meant with this part. Would you like to elaborate.

This is how I see it now.

One might be yellow and figure out a solution on yellow level.
But the cooked solution might be of a orange/blue/red nature. Depending on the case.

Lets say:
If one is yellow and lives in gangsta suburb. He might have to apply stage red solutions to live there, figuring out might be yellow, but action red.
If he gets hit, maybe he will have to hit back, because red respects that and wont bother him next time for example.

Would you agree ?




 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Yog

[bejapuskas]

@Yog  Sure, sometimes it might be necessary to act violently. But I don't have any experience with living in dangerous areas... But your example might be a good one  

What do you mean by an action that has (colour) nature? What colour is breathing for example? What colour is meeting weird people? What colour is wearing a camo-jeans?

I feel like certain things don't quite fit into the model and you might miss out on so much diversity of this world by trying to cathegorize them... 

What I meant by that is, that turquoise people aren't those who just are turquoise in some magical way, but they are turquoise, because they do certain things, it is not totally effortless. 

[CreamCat]

Eliminate distractions if you want your discipline to be effective. Eliminate distractions by choosing minimal solutions to most important problems and by not trying to solve unimportant problems.