Suffering and sensation have become one

[Shaun]

I also say the same about joy. When I feel something it is like the sensation and the judgement of it can no longer be distinguished. How can I fix this? 

[SoonHei]

@Shaun there's nothing to fix!

that's the natural state

there isn't 2 things happening. it is one.

your judgement / thought about it is what creates the illusion of separateness

 

it has always been this way. you just identified with the thought/thinker/feeler of the sensation

but the feeling of the sensation IS the sensation and YOU are that.

ONE thing.

NOT TWO!

 

you're asking for a how-to on unenlightenment

 

and if this really is something which you want to fix... just let it be and it will fix itself.

you were never in a position to do anything... had you been, do you recall having done this? it will go as it came, on it's own, in due time.

what you can do in the meantime, is relax in this knowing. 

[WelcometoReality]

1 hour ago, Shaun said:

I also say the same about joy. When I feel something it is like the sensation and the judgement of it can no longer be distinguished. How can I fix this? 

Can you elaborate a bit?

[Shaun]

It's making it hard to enquire into or find the one who suffers because the sensation itself literally has become suffering in my experience. Even with a totally silent mind, there is undeniable suffering.

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

2 hours ago, Shaun said:

It's making it hard to enquire into or find the one who suffers because the sensation itself literally has become suffering in my experience. Even with a totally silent mind, there is undeniable suffering.

Isnt putting the label "suffering" on a sensation still judging the sensation? Sensation is just raw bodily energy

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Shaun said:

It's making it hard to enquire into or find the one who suffers because the sensation itself literally has become suffering in my experience. 

Can you describe the sensation of suffering?

 

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, Shaun said:

Even with a totally silent mind, there is undeniable suffering.

That would be pain. 

Like @Serotoninluv said...can you describe some more, the sensation, the pain... where is it, what’s it feel like?

Also, try to describe it abstractly by feeling- if it were a painting, what color would it be, how dense, how new or old, what scenery, what shapes, texture, etc, anything that comes up image wise can be most helpful to start to feel the relief.  Doesn’t need to make sense how that works right now, just give it a try. Hang in there, the purification is coming from the inside out - you gotta let this be purified outward, ??.  Can’t keep it in.  

[Jkris]

@SoonHei @SoonHei ???

Can you pls explain this a bit more or help to understand this.

What is this illusion of seperateness ???? I often hear this but still not clear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SoonHei]

@Jkris Illusion of separateness

Nothing fancy there... As it reads: the separateness is an illusion. Meaning it seems to be the case, but it isn't.

Like an optical illusion. It seems to be a certain way but in reality it is not.

The illusion of separateness is talking about there being a 'separate entity' who experiences the world.

In truth, there is the totality of the experience, one thing, like your dream at night. While in the dream, there is a dream person making dream choices and doing dream things with other dream persons and objects.

The reality of it is that it was all one mind/thing - your dream. All interconnected and one. It was all simply KNOWN by you, the experience+experiencer.

Reality is always seen from a higher view.

 

Same way. With this current waking experience, the reality of it is that there isn't a separate entity 'Jkris' who makes choices or thinks thoughts. There's an unfolding of the experience which includes a Jkris having thoughts - all of which is known by YOU (awareness)

As the Reality of the dream was that a sleeping Jkris was the Single Knower and the creater of the one-connected-dream world... The Reality of this current waking experience is that AWARENESS alone is the knower+creator of this single-infintely conntected-reality.

 

All the I-Thoughts are just that... Thoughts. There is no thinker of them. Only a knower of thoughts. That knower is YOU (awareness) but YOU confuse Yourself as the thinker of the thoughts (you may call the thinker Jkris)

 

There is simply a stream of thoughts flowing thru, and there is an intelligence to them as well. But you're not the thinker, nor the thoughts... You're only the Knower of them.

There is only the illusion of there being a separate Jkris (body+mind) 

But that Jkris is One with the world/environment in which he appears - appears and is known all by You (awareness)

 

And yet, Jkris/the world is none other than yourself as you're the only thing in existence.

 

If the world/jkris is the flower then you're its perfume/fragrance. ONE

[Shaun]

18 hours ago, Nahm said:

That would be pain. 

Like @Serotoninluv said...can you describe some more, the sensation, the pain... where is it, what’s it feel like?

Also, try to describe it abstractly by feeling- if it were a painting, what color would it be, how dense, how new or old, what scenery, what shapes, texture, etc, anything that comes up image wise can be most helpful to start to feel the relief.  Doesn’t need to make sense how that works right now, just give it a try. Hang in there, the purification is coming from the inside out - you gotta let this be purified outward, ??.  Can’t keep it in.  

It's an experiment I do in the shower as I am not experiencing any significant emotions at the moment. I let freezing cold water wash over me and try to inquire into suffering to try and see it for what it is. As the freezing water washes over me, the body reaction is very significant and it's at that point where the sensation of freezing water and suffering become one. I can't distinguish the suffering from the sensation as they are both everywhere as one phenomenon. This is probably really unusual what I'm describing here.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Shaun said:

the sensation of freezing water and suffering become one. I can't distinguish the suffering from the sensation as they are both everywhere as one phenomenon. 

The terms "sensations" and "suffering" can have practical value. It is tempting to try and figure out direct experience through thought constructs. Nothing wrong with that, yet it seems like you are dipping into something deeper, something purer. Something "prior" to the thought stories.

When the sensation and suffering become one, the distinction between the two dissolves. The duality dissolves. When sensation and suffering is one, there is no longer sensation and suffering. There is simply ISness. Notice how after the direct experience of this ISness, we add in words to construct meanings and explanations to make sense of it. That may have practical value, yet that ISness is prior to the words, explanations and stories. We make stuff like "sensation" and "suffering" up. 

This is a great setup for a deep nondual realization through direct experience. . . 

[theking00]

 

[Nahm]

On 9/10/2019 at 11:13 AM, Shaun said:

I also say the same about joy. When I feel something it is like the sensation and the judgement of it can no longer be distinguished. How can I fix this? 

If there is joy, there is not something in any need of “fixing”.  Joy is dialed into inner being, presence, mindfulness, now, truth, unity-love.

23 hours ago, Shaun said:

It's making it hard to enquire into or find the one who suffers because the sensation itself literally has become suffering in my experience. Even with a totally silent mind, there is undeniable suffering.

There is no suffering with a ‘totally silent mind’. Suffering is of the mind, it is a mental activity. There might be pain - if not, there is not a ‘totally silent mind’, rather, there is awareness of how sneaky we are in terms of thoughts being believable (they are not true). Possibly, the thoughts at play, are of the nature of fear of potential future suffering, which would then, only in and of itself, be present suffering. This suffering would be attributable to thinking (the worrying about the future).

It is not possible to find the one who suffers. This is the beauty of self discovery and consciousness work. When it is realized there is not one who suffers, there is simultaneously no longer the suffering. Suffering (mental activity) can become so habitual, chronic, common to one, that one struggles to notice the thinking involved.

34 minutes ago, Shaun said:

It's an experiment I do in the shower as I am not experiencing any significant emotions at the moment. I let freezing cold water wash over me and try to inquire into suffering to try and see it for what it is. As the freezing water washes over me, the body reaction is very significant and it's at that point where the sensation of freezing water and suffering become one. I can't distinguish the suffering from the sensation as they are both everywhere as one phenomenon. This is probably really unusual what I'm describing here.

(I hear you that this is an ‘experiment, and that is the key factor....)

If you like it, there’s no suffering present. 

If you don’t like it, but choose to continue for a deeper benefit, such as ‘waking up’, building tolerance to cold or to discomfort, there’s no suffering present. 

If you don’t like it, and you stop choosing to do it, then there’s no problem, no suffering present. 

If you don’t like it - but continue to choose to do it - this is suffering. You would then contemplate why you’re choosing to do it. 

However, as you are doing this as an experiment, you are choosing to experience the cold shower. Because what you want (to do the experiment), and what you are choosing (to experience the coldness) are aligned, there is no suffering. It might get so cold that there is some discomfort and or pain, but still, as you are wanting to do this, choosing to do this, and doing this - there is no suffering. 

So in this particular experiment, you will not be able to find suffering. I believe this is leading to the assumption suffering “must then be” the same as sensation. Just because some thing is indistinguishable, does not necessarily mean that thing is present. 

 

What would be the desired outcome?

What specifically are you wanting relief from? Physical pain, a reoccurring thought?  Worry? 

 

[Jkris]

@SoonHei @SoonHei ???

Thank you.What you are saying is clear.

But how to get rid of this i-sense or sense of me ? 

So that one is permanantly free from the ilusion of I or me.

 

 

 

[SoonHei]

@Jkris there is no 'how'

'how' inplies a process.

How does Tom Hanks rid his sense of being Forrest Gump?

Is there really a 'how' involved? Or does he simply stop being Forrest Gump and become Tom Hanks the next moment?

Is it when the director says "CUT"?

 

The point is, you simply start living from the understanding that you're the Self. Stop identifying with your egoic thoughts. This is difficult because you will be pulled into your character JKRIS over and over again but overtime you will get better at catching yourself... Whether you're identified as JKRIS or your true Self.

 

Now the very tricky part is that, there isn't really any action on YOUR part whatsoever... It's almost like you're being reminded that while you're alive and living, that is in the form of JKRIS and only that.

You have to be careful that JKRIS doesn't start acting as if he is the Self... That would be as if Forrest Gump is acting as if He's Tom Hanks...

Only Tom Hanks can be and is Tom Hanks.

 

So simply, let happen, what happens, simply stop identifying with the story.

This is where u need to let go and let go untill you naturally won't identify with the story or content... Like you have let go of your love for Toys as you loved them as a kid you don't now. Same way, you let go until you're absolutely free from all attachment.

Stop identifying with the voice in your head. That's the ego/JKRIS

 

 

[Shaun]

On 11/09/2019 at 10:51 PM, Nahm said:

If there is joy, there is not something in any need of “fixing”.  Joy is dialed into inner being, presence, mindfulness, now, truth, unity-love.

There is no suffering with a ‘totally silent mind’. Suffering is of the mind, it is a mental activity. There might be pain - if not, there is not a ‘totally silent mind’, rather, there is awareness of how sneaky we are in terms of thoughts being believable (they are not true). Possibly, the thoughts at play, are of the nature of fear of potential future suffering, which would then, only in and of itself, be present suffering. This suffering would be attributable to thinking (the worrying about the future).

It is not possible to find the one who suffers. This is the beauty of self discovery and consciousness work. When it is realized there is not one who suffers, there is simultaneously no longer the suffering. Suffering (mental activity) can become so habitual, chronic, common to one, that one struggles to notice the thinking involved.

(I hear you that this is an ‘experiment, and that is the key factor....)

If you like it, there’s no suffering present. 

If you don’t like it, but choose to continue for a deeper benefit, such as ‘waking up’, building tolerance to cold or to discomfort, there’s no suffering present. 

If you don’t like it, and you stop choosing to do it, then there’s no problem, no suffering present. 

If you don’t like it - but continue to choose to do it - this is suffering. You would then contemplate why you’re choosing to do it. 

However, as you are doing this as an experiment, you are choosing to experience the cold shower. Because what you want (to do the experiment), and what you are choosing (to experience the coldness) are aligned, there is no suffering. 

What would be the desired outcome?

What specifically are you wanting relief from? Physical pain, a reoccurring thought?  Worry? 

 

I am doing it to try and see what suffering is and also build a tolerance to unpleasant things. 

[Nahm]

@Shaun Ok. Godspeed man ??