Trump is Not Well

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's funny how a giant ego looks like mental illness.

All egos behave like Trump. It's just a question of degree.

@Leo Gura 

Hmmm, so that means if I observe my own psychological dynamics then subtle forms of Trumpism will be revealed in my own mind. That’s a tough pill to swallow. It’s much more comfortable to observe Trump. Relative to Trump devilry, I’m an angel ? 

[lmfao]

@Serotoninluv Everyones met a person or two like Trump lol. If you're on their side they shower you with unbelievable amounts of praise, the second they think you're not on their side they go back to their malicious behaviour. They will literally refuse to admit that they've lied until the end of time, even when presented with the truth.  I don't know how to deal with such a person, since my family member is one. 

[Leo Gura]

Trump's just a classic narccist and con artist.

Most people don't have personal experiences with such people. But once you've hung around a person like this you learn how they work and they become very predictable. Their whole life revolves around shameless manipulation and opportunism. Eventually it leads to their downfall and hurts everyone close to them.

[giglio]

I don't like Trump and didn't vote for him but .... Just like the last election, all the polls said Hillary was going to win. So don't believe the polls. He very well could get reelected despite what polls say. If I remember right the polls said in 2016 that he would lose by 10 points or more in some states that he actually won. And then everybody was shocked. 

Secondly, everybody was so sure that he colluded with Russia yet after years of in-depth investigations nothing was found to support it. So for all we know this latest impeachment bid will result in nothing. Let's try to look at this from a stage yellow perspective and see everything from all sides. Maybe Trump is guilty, maybe he's not. I say impeach him, put him on trial, and let's see the evidence. Let the chips fall where they may. But we can't pre-judge without seeing the evidence if he's guilty or not. Leo, in the latest video on his blog is basically assuming that Trump is guilty. The problem is at the media might step in it again. If you see it from Trump's perspective, if you were Trump you would probably be pissed off too if you knew you didn't do anything wrong. And you would lash out. This is very similar to when the Republicans were constantly degrading Obama and calling for his impeachment. We have to understand that this is probably all political. The Democrats have been wanting to impeach Trump from day one regardless of whether he did anything wrong or not. That was the same for the Republicans with Obama from day one. The problem is everybody has their minds made up on both sides no matter what the circumstances are before they see any hard evidence. On the Ukraine issue he claims he's just trying to root out corruption from the 2016 campaign because of all of the false claims made against him that he colluded with Russia. From what I read in the news this phone call was not only about Biden, but it was also in general about the 2016 campaign and interference. So who knows until we have all the evidence out there. Of course both sides are going to claim things to their own benefit. Yes Trump is an idiot. But we don't know if he actually broke any laws or not yet. So we have to give him the benefit of the doubt. We can't jump to conclusions because we see how bad that went in the last investigation. 

[Mason Riggle]

7 hours ago, giglio said:

 everybody was so sure that he colluded with Russia yet after years of in-depth investigations nothing was found to support it. 

Here is a classic stawman 'everybody was so sure that he colluded'... no.. everyone suspected that the Russians interfered in the 2016 elections, which there is plenty of evidence to support, and Trump did everything in his power to obstruct any investigation into Russian interference, essentially aligning himself with a foreign power.  There is no legal term 'collusion', so obviously there will be no evidence of 'collusion'. 
 

7 hours ago, giglio said:

Let's try to look at this from a stage yellow perspective and see everything from all sides. Maybe Trump is guilty, maybe he's not.

According to the FBI's 400 page report, there was laid out evidence of no less than 10 instances where Donald Trump committed obstruction of Justice, and where it not for his position as President, Trump could be indicted on these charges.  They named him and 'Unindicted Co-Conspirator'. 
 

7 hours ago, giglio said:

But we can't pre-judge without seeing the evidence if he's guilty or not.

Actually we have years and years of Trump being in the public spotlight by which we may judge him.  It's perfectly reasonable to 'pre-judge' a person based on the persons past behavior. Leo's video blog isn't a court of law where everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty. 
 

7 hours ago, giglio said:

If you see it from Trump's perspective, if you were Trump you would probably be pissed off too if you knew you didn't do anything wrong. And you would lash out.

This is a false assumption.  'Lashing out' is what Narcissists do when called out on their lies. People who are innocent and accused of doing something wrong welcome an investigation of the circumstances surrounding the accusation. They wish to bring light upon the evidence to show their innocence. They do not begin engaging in smear campaigns,character assassinations, and cover ups. 
 

7 hours ago, giglio said:

This is very similar to when the Republicans were constantly degrading Obama and calling for his impeachment. We have to understand that this is probably all political. The Democrats have been wanting to impeach Trump from day one regardless of whether he did anything wrong or not. That was the same for the Republicans with Obama from day one.

 This is not at all similar. Democrats (and others) have known since before Trump even announced his candidacy that he is a corrupt narcissist with a long history of using his powerful status and money to serve the interests of one person.. Donald Trump.  There is plenty of evidence, in the form of Trumps own words, law suits, first hand accounts, etc. that Trump is unfit, and undeserving of the office of the Presidency.  The constant degrading of Obama by Republicans seemed to have everything to do with their 'blue/orange' tribalism.   This 'blue/orange' tribalism does also account for some of the negative behavior we see towards Trump, from people who simply have an aversion to classical Conservative ideology, but most of the criticism of Trump comes from more independently minded people, who also criticized Obama for his shortcomings. Many of the people involved in the current 'Impeachment' are life long republicans, Trump appointees, and non-partisan players.  Many of the criticisms and accusations of Trump are coming from within his own party, within his own administration even. We have never seen anything like this. 
 

7 hours ago, giglio said:

On the Ukraine issue he claims he's just trying to root out corruption from the 2016 campaign because of all of the false claims made against him that he colluded with Russia. From what I read in the news this phone call was not only about Biden, but it was also in general about the 2016 campaign and interference.  

If Donald Trump was 'just trying to root out the corruption from the 2016 campaign' he has plenty of resources at his disposal to do so which are legal.  That the phone call was 'also about other things' doesn't make the part about Biden go away or become unimportant.  The President of the United states clearly asked a Foreign nation to 'look into' an American Citizen, who he named, by name, who just happens to be the front runner to run against him in 2020.  There are NO other examples of Trump singling out ANY other individual for investigation in this 'crusade to root out corruption', and this should give you pause to reflect on what exactly his real intentions are, and should be a glaring beacon of the 'crime' he has openly committed, along with the many instances of 'obstruction of justice' he continues to engage in, which is an impeachable offense on it's own.
 

[Mason Riggle]

@giglio also, let's not distract from the topic of this thread, which has everything to do with Trump's mental state.   We have plenty of evidence which suggests Trump is suffering from some type of mental decline on top of any personality disorders/mental illness (giant ego) he might be experiencing. His inability to form complete coherent sentences without rambling from topic to topic. His unprecedented use of 'twitter' to announce policy, as well unleash barrages of often times confused, confusing, and self contradicting statements.  His slurred speech. His mispronouncing or inability to pronounce certain words. His bizarre 'wandering' around.  And the list goes on and on. 

[Forestluv]

 

10 hours ago, giglio said:

Maybe Trump is guilty, maybe he's not. I say impeach him, put him on trial, and let's see the evidence. 

There is already sufficient evidence. It is against the law for a president to solicit a foreign country to investigate a political opponent in an election. Trump himself has admitted committing this crime. He then again committed the crime in public view. We already have the direct evidence. An impeachment trial can reveal the mechanisms have how extensive the crime was. As well, a trial can help educate the portion of the public that cannot yet see clearly. . . It is as if a person admitted he committed the crime of murder and tried to hide it and then committed a second murder in plain view for everyone to see. Yet his friends and family cannot admit that he committed a crime or that murder isn't really a crime. A trial can help such people see clearly. For example, there may be lawyers that testify that murder is indeed a crime. There may be witnesses of the murder. Yet this is secondary evidence since the person has already admitted committing the crime and did it again in plain view. 

 

10 hours ago, giglio said:

But we can't pre-judge without seeing the evidence if he's guilty or not. Leo, in the latest video on his blog is basically assuming that Trump is guilty. 

It is against the law for a president to solicit a foreign leader to investigate a political opponent in an election. Trump is shown in the phone call committing this crime. Trump admitted to committing this crime. It doesn't get more direct than this. 

10 hours ago, giglio said:

From what I read in the news this phone call was not only about Biden, but it was also in general about . . . 

The part about Biden is the crime. All the other stuff is a distraction. It's like a man getting into an argument and murdering his wife, then saying "the evening was not just about the murder. He prepared his wife dinner and took out the trash. And they also talked about scheduling their son's summer soccer camp before he murdered her. And the neighbors didn't like this guy and wanted him to move out of the neighborhood. Oh, and what about the other guy across town that murdered his whole family?". . . All of this is distraction from the direct evidence of the crime and that the person admitted committing the crime. 

 

[Bodigger]

1 hour ago, Mason Riggle said:

@giglio also, let's not distract from the topic of this thread, which has everything to do with Trump's mental state.   We have plenty of evidence which suggests Trump is suffering from some type of mental decline on top of any personality disorders/mental illness (giant ego) he might be experiencing. His inability to form complete coherent sentences without rambling from topic to topic. His unprecedented use of 'twitter' to announce policy, as well unleash barrages of often times confused, confusing, and self contradicting statements.  His slurred speech. His mispronouncing or inability to pronounce certain words. His bizarre 'wandering' around.  And the list goes on and on. 

I laughed when I read this because this sounds like me at times....No chance for me to run for any political position.  But then I thought about people such as Clinton, Bernie, Warren, and Biden......

[Scholar]

13 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Leo Gura 

Hmmm, so that means if I observe my own psychological dynamics then subtle forms of Trumpism will be revealed in my own mind. That’s a tough pill to swallow. It’s much more comfortable to observe Trump. Relative to Trump devilry, I’m an angel ? 

 I found that watching criminal interrogations to be a great way of studying ego dynamics, especially because it is a high stake environment in which the ego is basically pushed to it's limits.

Jim Can't Swim is a great ressource for that with some valuable psychological nuggets. The interrogators use the ego's mechanisms to manipulate it into acting against it's own interest.

 

[Mason Riggle]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/george-conway-trump-unfit-office/599128/

"At 11,337 words “Unfit for Office” is a massive, deep-dive, example-filled investigation into President Donald Trump’s “mental stability and connection with reality” – or lack thereof. That it’s written by noted conservative attorney George Conway, husband to White House senior counselor Kellyanne Conway, should give it even more credibility."

Edited October 8, 2019 by Mason Riggle

[Forestluv]

20 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

I laughed when I read this because this sounds like me at times....No chance for me to run for any political position.  But then I thought about people such as Clinton, Bernie, Warren, and Biden......

I think Bill Clinton and Warren are very articulate speakers. Warren has worked as a teacher most of her life and I think she has strong communication skills. Warren is not my overall #1, yet I would rank her the best at being able to clearly explain complex, nuanced topics to a general audience. She is outstanding in this area - she has natural skills and extensive experience explaining complexities through her teaching.

I saw Bill Clinton speak in a small venue around 2003 and he was outstanding. It wasn't a campaign event. He was speaking about his work in Africa to help with tropical diseases and HIV. He was very knowledgeable and he integrated several dynamics, such as political, social, medical and philosophical issues. 

Hilary Clinton had too many personal filters for me and I didn't resonate with her. Biden is losing his cognitive abilities. Bernie is much more stable and coherent than Trump. In general, I think he does a good job at communicating his ideas, such as M4A. For example, I thought he spoke clearly during his FoxNews townhall. 

@Mason Riggle I would be curious about how Trump would be diagnosed after a thorough psychological evaluation by trained professionals. Yet on the other hand, we already know something is amiss in Trump's mind. It's like when someone's car breaks down it's pretty obvious. We don't need a car mechanic to tell us our car has broken down and isn't working. 

@Scholar Ooohhh!! The egoic psychology of advanced criminal minds and interrogators is so fascinating. Thank you for that juicy link. I can't watch it at work now, yet I will later tonight. . . One skill the best interrogators and investigators have is nonverbal communication. There is part of our brain that is aware of, and interprets, nonverbal cues such as facial expressions, voice tone, voice cadence and body language. There can be hundreds of very subtle nonverbal cues to integrate. People can get trained to due this - for example to detect when someone is trustworthy or untrustworthy. Yet the best investigators also have a natural skill at this, couple with intuition. Yet on the flip side, the stakes are high for criminals and they also have developed skills of masking nonverbal cues to cloak their dishonesty and nefarious intentions from detection. It's a really interesting dynamic. . . 

[Mason Riggle]

20 minutes ago, Bodigger said:

I laughed when I read this because this sounds like me at times....No chance for me to run for any political position.  But then I thought about people such as Clinton, Bernie, Warren, and Biden......

Bodigger, ^Notice the 'what-about-ism' that's going on in your thought process here.. 'but then I thought, [what about] people such as'.. and notice that this is not really related to the topic at hand, which is Trump's mental health.  The thread on which you are replying is literally titled 'Trump is Not Well', yet instead of offering up any defense of this assessment, or adding any insight to it, your default move is to think (and say), 'yes, but what about..' which only appears (to me anyway) as an attempt to distract from the topic at hand. 

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I agree with this assessment. 

6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I think Bill Clinton and Warren are very articulate speakers. Warren has worked as a teacher most of her life and I think she has strong communication skills. Warren is not my overall #1, yet I would rank her the best at being able to clearly explain complex, nuanced topics to a general audience. She is outstanding in this area - she has natural skills and extensive experience explaining complexities through her teaching.

I saw Bill Clinton speak in a small venue around 2003 and he was outstanding. It wasn't a campaign event. He was speaking about his work in Africa to help with tropical diseases and HIV. He was very knowledgeable and he integrated several dynamics, such as political, social, medical and philosophical issues. 

Hilary Clinton had too many personal filters for me and I didn't resonate with her. Biden is losing his cognitive abilities. Bernie is much more stable and coherent than Trump. In general, I think he does a good job at communicating his ideas, such as M4A. For example, I thought he spoke clearly during his FoxNews townhall. 

[Mason Riggle]

14 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

 We don't need a car mechanic to tell us our car has broken down and isn't working. 

Exactly. And in diagnosing what the problem with your car might be, if any, it serves no useful purpose to point out other cars which may also be not working.

[Bodigger]

5 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

Bodigger, ^Notice the 'what-about-ism' that's going on in your thought process here.. 'but then I thought, [what about] people such as'.. and notice that this is not really related to the topic at hand, which is Trump's mental health.  The thread on which you are replying is literally titled 'Trump is Not Well', yet instead of offering up any defense of this assessment, or adding any insight to it, your default move is to think (and say), 'yes, but what about..' which only appears (to me anyway) as an attempt to distract from the topic at hand. 

Perhaps....just showing that I can laugh at myself....as we should be able too if we are comfortable in our own skin (Incidentally, this new skin of mine is something I am enjoying).  I laugh at myself quite often when I read this forum because I can identify with what is being said.  As far as adding something to the topic......okay, go ahead and take Trump to task.  Again, I laugh because what we do unto others will be done to them in the future.  Setting new standards on others will apply to everyone thereafter.

[Mason Riggle]

@Bodigger always good to be able to laugh at one's self!

 

As far as setting new standards, I'm not sure this is anything new. There was plenty of public concern surrounding the mental decline of Reagan and both Bushes towards the latter end of their presidencies, when signs and symptoms of aging began to show. 

[Bodigger]

8 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

As far as setting new standards, I'm not sure this is anything new.

It's not new, but what we set as new, we then must live by these new standards.  Such as the me too movement....it's you too and us too.  This did not fare well for many of the people who originally supported this.  In my opinion it is important to play the tape forward and give thought to what may become of things in the future.  For instance, is it now the norm for any candidate for the Supreme Court to experience what Justice Kavanaugh has in the future?

[Mason Riggle]

@Bodigger perhaps you should start another thread about the implications of applying new standards to government officials if this is your legitimate concern.  Once again I'm left with the feeling that everything that came after '[you're right, it's not new] is just distraction and noise.  It's as if I've stated that my car is blue and I don't like blue cars, and you point out that my car is, in fact, red, and not blue.. and then I say, yes it's red, I get that.. but I really don't like blue cars, which is what I really want to talk about, instead of the fact that I'm completely wrong in my original assessment of my own car. 


 

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

 

[Forestluv]

I've been thinking about the psychology of deflection lately. It is a common defense mechanism to protect an underlying vulnerability and a way to control a narrative. We all do it to some extent. For example, a person may feel uncomfortable looking at their own selfish intentions and may deflect to avoid the issue. This dynamic can cause all sorts of problems in interpersonal relationships. For example, a guy might arrive 20min. late to dinner and his gf gets upset and tells him "You were very inconsiderate. You showed up 20min. late and didn't even text me". He might defensively respond "What about the time you forgot my birthday? That was inconsiderate". It's really hard to resolve underlying issues with this type of deflection.

All politicians do it to some extent. For example, during a debate a candidate may be asked about racial comments he made ten years ago. He may avoid the issue by talking about M4A or say "What about my opponent? He said worse racist things". It doesn't take a high level of consciousness to see this dynamic. I would say KellyAnne Conway has a high skill for deflection. She uses key words within the question as grounding to deflect upon, so it sounds like she is sorta answering the question, yet not really. In the below video, an expert debater analyzes KellyAnne's tactic, why it is effective and her backup deflection tactics when her primary tactic fails.

  

[Mason Riggle]

@Serotoninluv It seems like Trump himself is rather adept at deflection as well.  He's great at giving 'non-answers' and changing the narrative.  I'm not sure why so many people do not notice this.. perhaps I'm hyper sensitive to it, having lived with and having been a victim of an extreme narcissist.  To me, it's completely obvious when someone is engaging in this type of behavior, which is a huge red flag for me when it comes to Trumps mental state. It's a classic sign of 'self-delusion' that you will notice easily in many 'religious' people when confronted with contradictions in their beliefs.. they instantly go into deflection mode.  And you're right.. we all do it, to some extent or another, as long as there is some form of 'ego' which is trying to preserve itself. Projection is another classic defense mechanism of the ego .  I'm not engaging in 'x behavior'.. you are. 

[Bodigger]

16 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Serotoninluv It seems like Trump himself is rather adept at deflection as well.  He's great at giving 'non-answers' and changing the narrative.  I'm not sure why so many people do not notice this.. perhaps I'm hyper sensitive to it, having lived with and having been a victim of an extreme narcissist.  To me, it's completely obvious when someone is engaging in this type of behavior, which is a huge red flag for me when it comes to Trumps mental state. It's a classic sign of 'self-delusion' that you will notice easily in many 'religious' people when confronted with contradictions in their beliefs.. they instantly go into deflection mode.  And you're right.. we all do it, to some extent or another, as long as there is some form of 'ego' which is trying to preserve itself. Projection is another classic defense mechanism of the ego .  I'm not engaging in 'x behavior'.. you are. 

Allow me to show what it looks like on the other side of the topic title....

@Serotoninluv It seems like Obama himself is rather adept at deflection as well.  He's great at giving 'non-answers' and changing the narrative.  I'm not sure why so many people do not notice this.. perhaps I'm hyper sensitive to it, having lived with and having been a victim of an extreme narcissist.  To me, it's completely obvious when someone is engaging in this type of behavior, which is a huge red flag for me when it comes to Obama's mental state. It's a classic sign of 'self-delusion' that you will notice easily in many 'religious' people when confronted with contradictions in their beliefs.. they instantly go into deflection mode.  And you're right.. we all do it, to some extent or another, as long as there is some form of 'ego' which is trying to preserve itself. Projection is another classic defense mechanism of the ego .  I'm not engaging in 'x behavior'.. you are. 

I am sure there are people reading this and saying, how dare he.....LOL.  Yes, we all do this, and this is where I am going with it.  The scale is even depending on the perspective you have.  I do not buy into the idea of right and wrong in this matter.  Only different.  Maybe Trump isn't well, only different in the way he presents himself.  We are kidding ourselves if we don't see it from, and on, both sides.