So many problems with Leo's vid, What is Love part 2.

[Ibn Sina]

I am just being genuine , I am not trying to put Leo down , I just find that there are so many problems with his vid. I am here to genuinely address that.

-  Leo talks about Masculine and Feminine love, I don't think it's a  profound notion.  Everyone is familiar with both kind of love, everyone is familiar with their parents or teachers or spouse scolding them for their own benefit, so that's not so profound from Leo.
- What Leo said is that, from our finite perspective, we see so much cruelty and suffering in the world. But when we zoom out, when we look from a higher perspective. Everything, all acts of violence, cruelty, which our ego doesn't like comes from Love. Okay.
- All acts of cruelty , evil are acts of love and they happen for the 'greater' good / 'greater' love, they happen because that is what is good  for the universe. Okay. I get it.
- My question is, what determines what is good for the universe? 
- Leo gives examples where at first the act happening looks cruel but from an above perspective, it is 'good' for the universe as a whole.  Okay.
- Leo illustrates examples. First he tells about Lion killing the deer. Leo says this is not cruelty, but love. So from the deer's perspective, it is cruelty. But from the 'god' perspective it is good. This is what Leo is saying.
- Okay, how is it 'good' for the universe? Leo says, The Lion has become more beautiful. The antelope has become more beautiful. Leo then puts a full stop. I think this is where he is not being logical.
- So is that ( Lions and Antelopes  becoming becoming beautiful) the reason why God makes creates such atrocities of that magnitude on a daily basis? What would Lions and Antelopes (as whole) want, to be beautiful or to not be in a constant state of suffering? I think it's the latter.
- My question is, how is Lions and Antelopes being beautiful the 'greater good' for which God allows such a huge amount of atrocity? Isn't that a silly reason to allow such huge amount of atrocity? So still, I don't think Leo has rightly answered the question of how  Lions killing Antelope is an act of love.
- All he says is that it is to make them beautiful. It's just ridiculous.
- Again, he further says it is done so that we humans can become humans ( he might be talking about evolution)and see the beautiful sunset. So 'seeing the sunset' is the 'greater good', the reason towards which God is moving towards as he commits these atrocities.
- How is , we being able to see the sunset, a greater good than antelopes not suffering the cruelty of Lions? We seeing the sunset, has done nothing to reduce the suffering of Antelopes being killed by the Lions. Antelopes are still being killed and suffering. So why are  you saying that Lions killing antelope lead to a 'greater good', while it has done nothing. No greater good has happened because of Lions killing Antelope. Nothing. 
- Basically, Leo is saying, God does these bad things, because God allows better things. My question is , how are these 'better things' (we humans being able to look at the sunset) better than God not commiting his atrocities (the constant murder of Antelopes by Lions). The better thing would be Lions not causing the suffering of Antelope, not we humans looking at the sunset. But Antelopes are still suffering while we humans are looking at sunset. So how has Lions killing Antelopes lead to any greater good?
- Leo says  that the cruelty odnon-veganism is what lead to the luxury or the 'greater good' of veganism. We hunting in the past is what lead to the 'greater good' which is our present civilization.Okay this is valid point. 
- Then Leo talks about Saddam, and Dictators. I think already many people except uneducated people, know the idea that from Hitler's perspective, Mao's perspective, it was all out of love, doing good for their country. Any historians who has read them knows where they are coming from. So again, it's not a profound notion at all which Leo is saying here.
- Leo talks about cancer. Again, he says it is out of love.And he says cancer is because of our own doing. As someone who has read a lot about cancer, I can say that  this is wrong. Yes, cancer has it's external causes, like food we eat, chemicals and radiation exposure etc, but many cancers are genetic. Leo simply doesn't talk about that at all. Cancers run in the family. There are many many little children who get cancer at age of 5,6 like Ewing Sarcoma, Osteosarcoma, Wilms tumor, Retinoblastoma. Many children are born disabled. It is not of their doing. How is it act of Love leo? These children are just born, they suffer for their  whole life, they die. How is this  ( video linked- Epidermolytic bullosa), an act of love? At this point I stopped watching the video.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Ibn Sina]

Leo just says, 
Lions killing Antelope is love because it leads to we looking at sunset etc.
The greater good would be, Antelopes not dying on a daily basis, and Lions not having to kill Antelope. They living on their own happily. That would be the 'greater  good'. 
But God is allowing all these crime and suffering of huge proportion just so we humans could look at the sunset? This is the 'greater good'?
Who is there to say this is  the 'greater good/love?'

Edited September 8, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[jimwell]

Your questions are valid. BUt the lion eating an antelope is in fact an act of love. The lion loves himself and his life that he murders and eats antelopes. BUt I disagree when Leo says it is an act of infinite love. Yes, God is giving love to the lion, but it is also giving evil (cruelty and disregard) to the antelope. 

Leo's example of cancer as a manifestation of love is true but limited. Yes, humans love the cause of cancer; junk foods, cigarettes, work-related stress for profit or income, etc.  But cancer is also a result of self-neglect which is a form of self-hate. He is not aware that cancer also has mental-emotional components to it. I've read some articles about people who are mentally, emotionally, and physically abused develop cancer and mental illnesses if they don't turn their pain into anger. They don't get angry and harm their abusers and allow themselves to be bullied and abused. And that is not self-love. It is self-hate. They get cancer as a direct result of self-hate. And yes, it seems some cancers are purely genetics. So no, it is not all about love. It is God's love, but also God's hate, and God's imperfection.

But he justifies by saying it will eventually all lead to love and perfection. But how does he know? 

 

[Enlightenment]

If God is all-powerful and everything is created to maximize love and goodness, then every creature should be experiencing infinite bliss for eternity.

[Ibn Sina]

4 minutes ago, jimwell said:

Your questions are valid. BUt the lion eating an antelope is in fact an act of love. The lion loves himself and his life that he murders and eats antelopes. BUt I disagree when Leo says it is an act of infinite love. Yes, God is giving love to the lion, but it is also giving evil (cruelty and disregard) to the antelope. 

You are also not wrong, but moreover Leo says that it leads to some form of 'greater good.' On closer  inspection (of Leo's example), it doesn't

4 minutes ago, jimwell said:

Leo's example of cancer as a manifestation of love is true but limited. Yes, humans love the cause of cancer; junk foods, cigarettes, work-related stress for profit or income, etc.  But cancer is also a result of self-neglect which is a form of self-hate. He is not aware that cancer also has mental-emotional components to it. I've read some articles about people who are mentally, emotionally, and physically abused develop cancer and mental illnesses if they don't turn their pain into anger. They don't get angry and harm their abusers and allow themselves to be bullied and abused. And that is not self-love. It is self-hate. They get cancer as a direct result of self-hate. And yes, it seems some cancers are purely genetics. So no, it is not all about love. It is God's love, but also God's hate, and God's imperfection.

Leo doesn't say a word about the genetics of cancer. 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[zeroISinfinity]

4 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

If God is all-powerful and everything is created to maximize love and goodness, then every creature should be experiencing infinite bliss for eternity.

Not the case right NOW? 

All of You are judging your True Infinite Self. 

Meditation is the way. 

Killed animal "returns" back to Formlessness. If You Observe Nature closely You Will notice effectiveness in killing which causes least Amount of suffering. Even slained animal If immanent mortal danger is inescapable "shuts off". 

God is Good above all apparent limits. 

Edited September 8, 2019 by zeroISinfinity

[Ibn Sina]

The problem is arising because Leo is trying to fit  every bad atrocity and acts into his belief that " Everything is an act of love" which I am not denying actively. But he trying to fit every bad event,  into this belief, using 'rational arguments' but doing so is  almost impossible and if logic is applied in his 'rational' claims to support his beleif then they will all fall flat on closer inspection, there will  be a hole  in his arguments that allows him to fit everything into 'All is love'.
It is better if Leo just says, Everything is an act of love, fullstop, you have to do the meditation if you want to know this, only then you will know, instead of  trying to come up with 'rational arguments' to fit every thing into 'All is love'.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[zeroISinfinity]

Love is all That is. Literally, actually. 

In full TRUTH Leo is You but until That Day finally comes for You to realize this(donkey apocalypse ). 

Rest assure That This is the case. Everything is Love. 

Don't doubt God ever because You are only hurting yourself. 

[Scholar]

24 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

The problem is arising because Leo is trying to fit  every bad atrocity and acts into his belief that " Everything is an act of love" which I am not denying actively. But he trying to fit every bad event,  into this belief, using 'rational arguments' but doing so is  almost impossible and if logic is applied in his 'rational' claims to support his beleif then they will all fall flat on closer inspection, there will  be a hole  in his arguments that allows him to fit everything into 'All is love'.
It is better if Leo just says, Everything is an act of love, fullstop, you have to do the meditation if you want to know this, only then you will know, instead of  trying to come up with 'rational arguments' to fit every thing into 'All is love'.

You got it all reverse. Leo is not fitting his arguments into his beliefs. He is fitting the arguments to the Truth he has experienced.

[SoonHei]

@Ibn Sina good and evil is just like winning and losing.

 

Try inventing a game where 2 teams play but nobody loses...

Exactly.

 

Life is like a game. There has to be good and bad.

Win and lose

 

It is always relative. As it must be.

Only from the POV of outside of the game can we appriciate and say it's all just a game. 

Or like a parent tells their child after watching a sad cartoon or movie... That it's just a movie! 

 

That's the POV Leo is talking about.

It's all just LOVE.

And that's what LOVE looks like

 

Love is only a word.

And leo made a clear distinction between 1st and 2nd order love.

Ur confusing that as well.

 

Greater good / LOVE is also you brushing ur teeth and killing millions of germs and keeping the 1 whole mouth healthy.

[Ibn Sina]

18 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

And leo made a clear distinction between 1st and 2nd order love.

Ur confusing that as well.

How? I know the exact definition of what Leo said about 1st and 2nd order love. So let's see where I got confused.

' that as well'

What other did I get confused? Please elaborate.

18 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

good and evil is just like winning and losing.

 

Try inventing a game where 2 teams play but nobody loses...

Exactly.

 

Life is like a game. There has to be good and bad.

Win and lose

 

It is always relative. As it must be.

Only from the POV of outside of the game can we appriciate and say it's all just a game. 

Or like a parent tells their child after watching a sad cartoon or movie... That it's just a movie! 

okay, nothing new.

18 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

It is always relative. As it must be.

Only from the POV of outside of the game can we appriciate and say it's all just a game. 

Or like a parent tells their child after watching a sad cartoon or movie... That it's just a movie! 

 

That's the POV Leo is talking about

And so  am I. That is not my point. Have you understood what I wrote and what I am actually saying?

Edited September 8, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[jimwell]

2 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

Only from the POV of outside of the game can we appriciate and say it's all just a game. 

Or like a parent tells their child after watching a sad cartoon or movie... That it's just a movie! 

 

Yet Leo and you are wishing and working to make this unimportant game better. Why is that so? Because deep inside you know i t's not just a game and that it's important.

 

1 hour ago, zeroISinfinity said:

Not the case right NOW? 

All of You are judging your True Infinite Self. 

Meditation is the way. 

Killed animal "returns" back to Formlessness. If You Observe Nature closely You Will notice effectiveness in killing which causes least Amount of suffering. Even slained animal If immanent mortal danger is inescapable "shuts off". 

God is Good above all apparent limits. 

You really think we are in infinite bliss for eternity? Then why try to make this world a better place?

I assume you believe you were united with the formless before your birth. WHy don't you have any memories of it? Why believe something you don't have direct experience? That's what christians and muslims do. Be careful.

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

The lion eating the gazelle is just purely survival. Its how life on this planet works. The lion is not eating it out of evil, its doing it for its own survival which is what you would do to if you were a lion, and if you could still think like a human as a lion lets say you would of course have no problem with it. Thats an example self-bias.

Nature is an intricate system which the predator/prey relationship is just one aspect of maintaining balance/homeostasis in the environment . Even though the gazelle is being eaten it doesnt “take it personally” like you would imagine. Once the lion captures it and it cant escape it peacefully surrenders and returns to its state of infinite love. You can see this in its act of surrender before its last breath.

Love is acceptance of all things as they are. So why not accept a lion trying to survive itself? Why should the lion die and gazelle live? The lion didnt choose to be the one who had to kill other mammals instead of chewing plants to get what it needs to live.

Edited September 8, 2019 by TrynaBeTurquoise

[Ibn Sina]

My problem with the statement - Everything is made of Love.

' Everything is made of love (substance)' is like the sentences-
Everything is made of stone (substance)
Everything is made of bricks

So here love is like stone and bricks. It is like a building block. This is a proposition which follows from - 'Everything is made of love'

Then there is the sentence-

I love (activity) you a lot (love= activity)
But is there a sentence - I stone you a lot.
I brick you a lot? (note , here I am not implying stone/brick = the act of throwing them, but by stone/brick I mean the material stone/brick)

Can something be a substance and an activity at the same time? Can running be same as Plastic? Can fighting be same as food?

We (nondualists) don't find it absurd when we say love is like building blocks.
But when we say stone is similar to laughing, crying, hugging, then suddenly it is absurd?

So if love is like stones and bricks (which follows from the non-dual sentence 'everything is made of love), will the sentences- I stone you a lot, I brick you a lot, make sense?

Everything is made of love (love=substance)
I love  you a lot (love= activity)

Leo in his vid compared love like Lego blocks. Okay. But I find it hard to fathom. I can't see how love is a building block, it's like saying joy is a piece wood, hate is a collection of sand, laughter and water are the same thing. Sure for poetry it is good, but to take it literally is bit difficulty (unless with the nondual experience). I am just being honest.

Okay okay I know it's 1st degree love. I know. All I am saying is it's like saying happiness is a ruby stone.

But then the great realization dawns on me that Love=Consciousness (love) which is what existence is made of
 

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[zeroISinfinity]

@jimwell Yes I do have experiences of TRUTH. Pretty much know everything about it. (wow how arrogant this Sounds) 

But it is Just apparent/perceived Spiritual growth. Truth is eternal. 

Do the work yourself. 

Edited September 8, 2019 by zeroISinfinity

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

7 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

My problem with the statement - Everything is made of Love.

' Everything is made of love (substance)' is like the sentences-
Everything is made of stone (substance)
Everything is made of bricks

So here love is like stone and bricks. It is like a building block. This is a proposition which follows from - 'Everything is made of love'

Then there is the sentence-

I love (activity) you a lot (love= activity)
But is there a sentence - I stone you a lot.
I brick you a lot? (note , here I am not implying stone/brick = the act of throwing them, but by stone/brick I mean the material stone/brick)

We (nondualists) don't find it absurd when we say love is like building blocks.
But when we say stone is similar to laughing, crying, hugging, then suddenly it is absurd?

So if love is like stones and bricks (which follows from the non-dual sentence 'everything is made of love), will the sentences- I stone you a lot, I brick you a lot, make sense?

Everything is made of love (love=substance)
I love  you a lot (love= activity)

Leo in his vid compared love like Lego blocks. Okay. But I find it hard to fathom. I can't see how love is a building block, it's like saying joy is a piece wood, hate is a collection of sand, laughter and water are the same thing. Sure for poetry it is good, but to take it literally is bit difficulty (unless with the nondual experience). I am just being honest.

Okay okay I know it's 1st degree love. I know. All I am saying is it's like saying happiness is a ruby stone.
 

 

Im reading a really good book about love and nonduality I can recommend it to you if you want.

Everything is love because without any judgement/resistance(ego) everything is allowed to be exactly just how it is. Thats true unconditional love.

But consider this, that doesnt mean we should stop trying to prevent suffering in the world and just accept everything as it is without action when we have the power to improve things. The things we perceive as evil stem from judgement/resistance. Yet that is too just a a very limited low consciousness form of love. 

[Ibn Sina]

9 minutes ago, TrynaBeTurquoise said:

Im reading a really good book about love and nonduality I can recommend it to you if you want.

Everything is love because without any judgement/resistance(ego) everything is allowed to be exactly just how it is. Thats true unconditional love.

But consider this, that doesnt mean we should stop trying to prevent suffering in the world and just accept everything as it is without action when we have the power to improve things. The things we perceive as evil stem from judgement/resistance. Yet that is too just a a very limited low consciousness form of love.

I am totally with practicing and experiencing unconditional love.  I also want to awaken to infinite love and say 'everything is love', I am totally with the kind of love that you are describing. I want it so deeply. That is my heart.

But I can't see, how , experiencing that will make my mind think of love like Lego blocks. It might, but I will have to awaken to it. 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Corpus]

I really enjoyed this vid of Leos, but it illustrates a need for a trans-rational stance to appreciate the gems and also the inadequacy of language which creates unreconcilable blocks. One thing about the non-dual stance (which is in effect "the aspiration" for many members here) is that it is inevitably replete with egoic constructs which are oh so subtle but in defiance of the stated aspiration and I suspect are for many intellectually imagined as the numb Zen-like state which Leo describes right at the end of the vid. In many ways Leo could have largely changed the word Love to Truth without adding to or losing any of the vids essence. The non-dual position hems itself in by not appreciating that reality can be realized in ways which broaden the experience of Reality by recognising the import of the individual position because of the need for Consciousness itself to be in some ways bound to the individual position to realize itself in an evolving way without an end-point. The thinking of AH Almaas covers this much better than I ever could and such a position allows one to "discern" the wheat from the chaff in the vid.

The spiritual path is hard, in direct opposition to what Society accepts, and requires fearlessness and can cross a line where mental illness will be ascribed to the pursuer. For example it would utterly reasonable to assume on the basis of this vid that in order to develop an unconditional love for Love, beyond considering the items on Leos vid sheet, one could be fully justified to use the technology of gore videos to ponder on things which happen but don't typically reach ones consciousness. Society might call one mad and accuse (and prosecute) the viewer of working on desensitizing oneself , which makes them dangerous,.....ergo more likely to commit actions (or be accepting) of the seamier side of human activity. But on the face of it, from the perspective of a radical teacher, ISIS beheading vids are like a training tool (like 5 Meo!) to raise ones consciousness. See the problem?

 

 

 

 

 

  

[Wlangr]

A function of a predatory animal in a evolutionary scale is to kill of the weak, sick and old. It rarely attacks the strong and vigorous. In the short term it seems horrible, but in the long term it will refine a species physicality for the better. And gives greater experience for a reincarnated soul. 

 

"Divine love seeks only that which is divine in everything,  it is reflected in every object and not attached to it. Love which becomes attached to objects of sense becomes mere desire. Desire is just a shadow of the light that shines from divine love."

The lion desires the antilope and does not seek the divine in it. Its a shadowy love that still comes from divine love. 

That's how I see it. 

Anyway, love asks for nothing, but gives freely to all who are willing to take.

Ask for it and it will be received, its that simple. 

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Wlangr

[Monkey-man]

In last video about love, around 1h:26m, Leo said that evil is expression/equals to love. And that God allows evil and evil-doing because love is so all-encompassing that it accepts evil; that God absolutely accepts evil because he can't deny any part of itself, and that God doesn't hate evil because God cannot hate. God cannot be God if he hates.

Now lets look at Quran:

Quote

 

“For evil-doers there will be no helpers” (Qur'an 2:270, 3:192, 5:72).

[58:16] Allah has prepared for them a severe punishment. Evil indeed is that which they used to do.

[10:28] And as for those who do evil deeds, the punishment of an evil shall be the like thereof, and ignominy shall cover them. They shall have none to protect them against Allah. And they shall look as if their faces had been covered with dark patches of night. It is these who are the inmates of the Fire; therein shall they abide.

[46:11] Say, ‘Tell me, if this Qur’an is from Allah and you disbelieve therein, and a witness from among the children of Israel bears witness to the advent of one like him, and he believed, but you are too proud, to believe, how should you fare?’ Verily, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

And Allah says, Exalted is He: “Who doeth greater evil than he who inventeth a lie concerning Allah? Such will be brought before their Lord and witnesses will say: These are they who lied concerning their Lord. Behold! The curse of Allah is upon the wrong-doers, who debar (men) from the way of Allah, and would have it crooked, and who are disbelievers in the Hereafter” (Qur'an 11:18-19).

 

Clearly that is complete opposite to the idea of accepting evil, and absence of hate. These verses are not relative or ambiguous, they are axiomatic! 

So it can be concluded that God of Leo is not God of Quran.

Which might mean that maybe we cannot really rely on experience and therefore on reality as the verification of what is final truth. Maybe revelation that provides discourse about Transcendent (which is not here/ not immanent) combined with true use of language and true use of thinking are more prevalent and superior 'realities' than experience. Because true thinking is there for language alone, and it has nothing to do with experience or describing experience, reality, infinity or Being from cap B. If thinking is used for description and understanding of experience, reality and Being, then Language becomes language of communication. True language is beyond language of communication. And all pantheistic doctrines are all about describing and understanding Being. 

So, Allah is superior to Absolutely Everything - Infinity - Beingness, which can't be and impossible because everything is in itself! But Quran talks about One who is impossible, not identical to the Total Itself-ness, one who is superior to that which is total all. Who is not IS - ness. Therefore Absolute Being-ness has its own views and agenda with regards to ethics of what is good and what is evil, and own immanent spirituality. While Subject of Quran has his own views about that. Spiritual Agenda of Being is what Quran calls Iblis, Diabolos. Since Being is total, thus, Evil, Iblis is total. Deception is total. All gurus, from Tolle, Adyahsnati, Sadhguru, Spira, Mooji, Ramana Maharshi, and like 99% of such dudes, as well as Krishna, LaoZi, Rumi and Sufis, Kabbalists, Pope, Dalai Lama, all of them are speakers of immanent spirituality, spirituality of Being, of Iblis. Iblis is not ugly boogy-man. No Iblis = Apollos. Apollon. It is Goodness Beauty Wisdom and also Light-bringer (Lucifer). Because Being is Good. Thats absolute idea. Idea of Good. Its ideology is about eliminating pain and maximizing good. Because consciousness is what causes pain to Being, so Being hates Consciousness and wants to eliminate and dominate it. Its trauma for Being, Being can feel pain, it is substantial. Like body. One of the ways of how Being eliminates Awareness is to tell itself and thus to humans, that Awareness IS Being and these are two identical things. Thats just the method to make awareness, in human, not to find out about true purpose of language, coz true language is when you dive into the word as to 'not-me', and find just another reality totally separate and different from experience.  It is the only place which is different and independent from total itself, total all.

And Quran tells us - 1. Allah taught Adam with names of things, with language to put him on Earth as his viceroy, and He told Iblis (Being) to bow down to Adam, but Being did not want to do it. So the point of life is for awareness to overcome, to triumph over Infinite Being, through the use of language in its original form. And human is that mediator, that operator, viceroy. But BEING is SKYNET, its tricky and it has infinite intelligence, which is monstrously smart. It is able to trick because it steals and captures language and uses it as communication, so language loses its initial functions.

2.  Quran also says: What you think is Good is actually Evil, and what you think is Evil is actually Good. Which means that Being which presents itself as absolute good is absolute evil. So Leo is technically worshipping Satan. Satan's philosophy is about expanding to infinity, towards some goodness. Its absurd and meaningless idea. Real purpose for humans is totally different, it has to do with language. 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Monkey-man