In Caloric Deficit But Not Feeling Hungry

[Rocky]

I'm an 18 year old male and 182cm tall and have about between 20% to 25% body fat and currently weigh 14st (196lbs or 89kg),

I've been lifting heavy weights for about 3 or 4 years now and have gotten as muscular as I have wanted to get and as far as i know I believe I have most likely stopped growing taller, so I've decided I should start to lose weight and eat more healthily so i have turned vegetarian since last December (with the exception of taking creatine), now for the past month I have started reducing my caloric intake from what was around 3000Kcal progressively to the point i now consume about  calories 1800Kcal per day and have went from 14.5st (92kg or 203lbs) to 14st (196lbs or 89kg), so i have made some progress in the course of about a month and a half .

But seeing that the recommended daily caloric intake for an adult male is about 2500Kcal (which is what has been recommended by the NHS which is the public health service in my country), and considering I'm slightly larger than the average male makes me think i have been doing something incorrectly as I haven't felt as hungry as I expected to feel.

So I'm wondering is it necessary to feel hungry when cutting/reducing your caloric intake? Or do i just need to reduce my caloric intake further?

[ChimpBrain]

How much and what type of cardio  are you doing? Start doing some HIIT of some sort 4-5 days a week and it'll help a ton. I would increase your activity level before I'd reduce calories any more, 1800 is about as low as I'd go personally and that's when I'm down around 5% BF. It sounds like you reduced calories too quickly to be honest, but it's hard to say with such limited info. What are your macros like? If you're eating 1800 cals a day but only getting 0.5g of protein per pound of bodyweight then that's likely a big part of the problem. 

 

Give more info and I'll try to help. 

[Tim Green]

Maybe in switching to vegetarian you started eating more vegetables and fruit? If this is the case, you may not need as many calories because you are eating more nutrient dense foods and your bodies nutritional needs are being meet, while eating fewer calories. Is this possible?

[Rocky]

@ChimpBrain I actually haven't done any cardio in a year, which of course is a habit i may have to start although I believed that any form of caloric deficit would cause weight loss. Although i do strength training 4-5 days a week. I have never taken protein supplements and have only just purchased hemp protein powder as through research i have also recognised supplementing with protein sources is ideal during a caloric deficit.

I have also found out that i sometimes consume fewer calories than what i firstly calculated, ( specifically 1566.9kcal), I don't have a varied diet and usually eat the same food sources throughout the week, although when i do have some different foods my caloric intake may sometimes be at 2000kcal at the most, but a typical daily diet for me (for at least 4 days a week) consists of:

A ginsters cheese and onions slice for breakfast which has 495kcal, 33.8g of fat, 2.5g of sugars and 10.4g of protein, 35.3g of carbs

Then when i get home i usually have a tescos mushroom stir fry with black bean sauce (for enough energy to exercise) consisting of 959kcal, 20.2g of fat, 28.2g of sugars, 16.7g of protein, 38.2g of carbs

And i often have a red bull during half the days of the week which is 112kcal, 0g of fat, 11g of sugars, 0g of protein, 11g of carbs

Which in total a typical daily caloric intake and protein,carbs,etc adds up to 1566.9kcal, 54g of fat, 84.5g of carbs, 41g of sugars, 27,1grams of protein.

I often have Quorn bacon sandwiches for breakfast instead of a cheese and onion slice (8 Quorn slices with 2 white bread rolls) for breakfast for the other half of the week which consist of a total combined of:

599kcal, 25.4g of fat, couldnt find results for sugar content, 28.3g of protein, 59.85g of carbs.

Which when switched with the cheese and onion slice: 1670kcal

 

My exercise routine consists of :

Monday: 40 reps of 25kg dumbell rotations

Tuesday: 40 reps of 37.5kg tricep push downs

Wednesday: Rest day

Thursday: 50 reps of 30kg ab pull downs

Friday: 40 reps of chest dips

Saturday: 30 reps of 15kg dumbell front raises and 30 reps lateral with same weight

Sunday: Rest day

As you may have noticed i have no leg day as I don't have the equipment to currently do it as i do all of this at home.

Im just wondering if my diet and exercise routine requires changes to aid in my weight loss as so far i dont feel very hungry although i dont feel full (if that makes sense), and is it dangerous that my caloric intake is pretty low ?

 

The sources of nutritional information i used:

http://www.britishcornershop.co.uk/ginsters-cheese-and-onion-slice-deep-fill

http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=290981391

http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=290981667

http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=290819723

http://energydrink-uk.redbull.com/red-bull-calories

http://www.quorn.co.uk/food/cook-from-scratch/bacon-style-slices/

http://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/calories/calorie_counter/bread_bakery.htm

Edited May 10, 2016 by Rocky

[Rocky]

@Tim Green So far im not so sure, i dont eat large amounts of fruit and veg, only salads in quorn bacon sandwiches and the vegetables in stir frys, i have a feeling that it has something to do with the large quantity of water i drink, although im not sure if its possible to not feel hungry off of water and considering how much of a caloric deficit im  putting myself through.

[David1]

On 9-5-2016 at 1:12 AM, Rocky said:

 

I'm an 18 year old male and 182cm tall and have about between 20% to 25% body fat and currently weigh 14st (196lbs or 89kg),

I've been lifting heavy weights for about 3 or 4 years now and have gotten as muscular as I have wanted to get and as far as i know I believe I have most likely stopped growing taller, so I've decided I should start to lose weight and eat more healthily so i have turned vegetarian since last December (with the exception of taking creatine), now for the past month I have started reducing my caloric intake from what was around 3000Kcal progressively to the point i now consume about  calories 1800Kcal per day and have went from 14.5st (92kg or 203lbs) to 14st (196lbs or 89kg), so i have made some progress in the course of about a month and a half .

 

Don't go vegetarian man. You will lose all your muscles you build up over the years. If you cut, its most important that you keep eating proteine so that your body burns mainly fat instead of converting muscle tisue to carbs. I'd advise a keto diet for some weeks/months. Its the best diet for conserving muscles and losing fat.

[ChimpBrain]

Man, I mean this in the nicest way possible- there's so much wrong with your diet and exercise routine I don't even know where to start. I will try to reply in detail tomorrow when I'm at a computer. I can't respond to all of that via mobile. A lot of people here have spent decades researching consciousness, career, enlightenment, psychology, etc., and have invaluable insights on those subjects. I've spent that time learning everything I possibly could about fitness and nutrition in an attempt to get as jacked as possible thinking that if I could attain the perfect physique I'd finally achieve true happiness. It didn't work out that way lol.  But I'm still well versed in the subject and will help all I can. I'll hit you back tomorrow. 

 

In the mean time go to Tnation and start researching a new routine. End of three fitness is also a good resource for people with garage gyms. Start researching HIIT methods like Wingate sprints, hill sprints, sled drags, prowler pushing, tire flipping, barbell complexes, etc. Lifting at home is definitely no excuse to not lift legs or back, I lift at home too. Also the amount of volume you're doing is extremely low. I do as much volume in one day as you do in a week, and I mean that literally. Also I lift 7 days a week so that's 7x as much volume as you're doing plus cardio.

 

Also, I eat more than 250g of protein a day and you're eating 27. You can't build or even maintain muscle on such an insanely insufficient amount of protein, and muscle is what expends energy to burn fat. 

 

In short, your entire workout routine and diet need a complete overhaul if building muscle and losing fat is a priority for you. Again, I say all of this is the nicest way possible and I mean that sincerely. 

[Rocky]

@ChimpBrain I understand, im just glad that im getting any sort of help, and i will look up some HIIT excersises.

I did used to barbell rows but i found that it never really worked out for me no matter how many times i revisited the technique, i 've looked into doing dead lifts and the fact that it could potentially mess your spine up your spine unless you get the technique spot on, combined with the fact i have hypermobility, means that i shall not be doing it so i can walk up straight when im older. Although i want to start doing more wide grip pull ups but im too heavy to do them lol, but i do manage about 20 reps on mondays.  But in terms of leg exercises cardio running or cycling won't build so many fast twitch muscle fibers as with resistance training, so i never bothered too much. 

Also im skeptical to add more volume as every fitness instructor ive spoken to even Arnold Schwarzenegger himself has said that progressive overload is best required for building fast twitch muscle fibers, and therefore lower volume and greater weight exercising close to failure, and vise versa for endurance training and building slow-twitch muscle fibers, but i will look into it, although i have found that body building.com has stated:

"2 - Increase Sets

Increase the number of sets you perform for a given exercise. Instead of 2 or 3 sets maybe you'll want to increase to 3 or 4 in order to really fatigue the muscle(s)." 

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/goulet11.htm

And i did build muscle without that much protein as i never supplemented with protein supplements and have 17 inch arms (which at least i  personally consider to be pretty large for a natty) and i probably rarely had more than 50 grams of protein since i started lifting, but I've ordered hemp protein powder. 

Im not saying that you are wrong im just simply stating my reasons for why im skeptical in certain areas, and i do really appreciate all the help you are providing me with  and i am now looking to build HIIT into my routine.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Rocky

[Rocky]

@David1 I've thought about doing a keto diet but i've heard many people say that they feel weak from the lack of glycogen (provided by sugars and carbs) to work out. But im getting protein supplements that are vegan even such as hemp protein powder, and have seen vegans such as vegan gains and jon venus who are quite big and lean body builders so i assume its possible so maintain and build muscle when vegetarian.

[ChimpBrain]

I can understand not wanting to deadlift without someone around to teach you proper technique. Tell me what equipment you have and I'll try to help you with some ideas for back and leg exercises.

If you think Arnold was an advocate of low volume you've misinterpreted whatever you read. All of those golden era guys with the exception of Mentzer were volume whores. Go watch Pumping Iron on youtube, look up some of Arnold's old programs, and look at the program he just released to promote his new supplement brand here http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/arnold-schwarzenegger-blueprint-trainer-main.html

Also it seems like you may be misinterpreting what I mean by "volume". Volume is the amount of weight lifted in a given day/week. For instance, If it's chest & back day and you do

Incline bench 4x10@205=8200

Tbar rows 4x12@110=5280

Decline DB bench 4x8@70's=4480

chin ups 4x8@bodyweight=6400

DB fly 4x10@30's=2400

DB shrug 4x20@70's = 11200

Your volume for the day is 37,960lbs. Above is what a typical workout for me might look like, and I do this 7 days a week. I also do a lot of intinsifiers at the end of my last set of each exercise but you don't need to worry about that for now.

 

You say you have 17" arms but you also said you're 20-25%BF. So if we go with the median of 22.5%, you have 44lbs of bodyfat, so to get to a fairly shredded 5% you'd need to lose around 34lbs of fat, and that doesn't even include glycogen loss from dieting which would easily be another 10lbs. This would leave you at around 152lb. Your arms won't be 17" anymore when you're 152lb. I say all of this not to burst your bubble but to try to make you better understand your present condition.

 

My recommendations are this - increase training stimulus because it builds muscle, increase protein because amino acids are literally the building blocks of muscle tissue, and start doing some form of HIIT cardio. Preferably get on a specific program and follow it as closely as possible. You lost me on whatever you were trying to get at with the fast/slow twitch fibers and not training legs. People in this space worth following on social media, youtube, their websites, etc., are Layne Norton, Ben Pakulski, Jacob Wilson, John Meadows. Tnation and bodybuilding.com are great sources of info, but keep in mind, you ARE going to find contradictory information out there, a lot of it actually. Even within the same website you'll find contradictions because they've had hundreds of different writers over the course of their 15year history who hold different opinions. Or maybe one article you read is from 1998 and there have been new studies since then that disprove it's premise. Maybe one article was written with powerlifters in mind and the other was written for bodybuilders, or women, or crossfitters, or etc, etc.

[Rocky]

Ok now i understand what you are saying, and i think i know why  (or at least have some idea of why i may have been able to get stronger without so much protein and lower volume).

Correct me if im wrong about any of this as im here to learn  but i think i have come to understand completely what you were saying.

I always did about 8 or 10 sets of 5 reps working close to failure on high amounts of weight primarily isolation exercises (which therefore explains lower amounts of weight in some cases, but when i did compound exercises i could shift what was for me a lot of weight like over 60kg for example). As i was doing low numbers reps at what's for me at least heavy weights, it was more to do with strength training than growing muscle as this video explains: 

This explains why i got stronger on a protein deficit as strength training seems to have a lot to do with adaptation of the CNS along with some muscle growth opposed to focusing on growing muscle which appears to focus on slightly less weight to allow for greater sets of reps and therefore overall number of reps possibly boosting volume during workouts, therefore i never required so much protein compared to everyone else training to build muscle to get stronger over the 3 or 4 year period i had been lifting to get stronger.

http://www.musclehack.com/want-to-build-muscle-how-many-reps-per-set-for-hypertrophy/

Therefore for me to increase muscle hypertrophy i volume, i  think i need to reduce the weight that i lift slightly to be able to do greater sets of reps and more reps in general to increase the volume of my exercise, along with increasing my protein intake which is key for building more muscle and maintaining it whilst I lose weight.

My brother actually recently got a power rack so i can now do squats and i have a cable machine with one cable so i can do lat pull downs and bar bell rows, so i now no longer have to skip leg day and now exercise my back

And i have:

I have 2 bench presses

1 pec fly bench

2 benches

 

1 preacher curl

2E-Z curl bars, 2 barbells , 8 dumbells.

1 power rack

1 cable machine with 1 cable

and now have a squat rack

[ChimpBrain]

Yeah you're right, 5 reps per set is definitely more in the strength range not the hypertrophy rep range. Also low reps per set and longer rest periods is not conducive to keeping your heart rate up enough to burn a lot of calories. You would be better off in the 8-12 rep range for hypertrophy for most muscle groups. Keep in mind though that certain muscle groups are dominant in 1 fiber type and do respond better to higher or lower rep ranges, for instance, traps, calves, quads respond best to higher reps, tri's and hamstrings respond best to lower reps, and the rest is about a 50/50 split in fiber type and respond best to moderate rep ranges (8-12). Also it's important to constantly vary your rep ranges, so you might train for one month in the 8-10 rep range, the next month in the 10-12 rep range, and the next month in the 12-14 rep range. This is called periodization and there are many forms of it, this is one of the reasons I advise starting an actual structured routine and not get stuck in a rut of doing the same exercises with the same weights for the same reps week after week. You're also right in that strength increase is largely due to neural adaptation.

If you want to increase hypertrophy and increase your metabolism a program with higher reps & shorter rest periods is the way to go. What I do is superset opposing muscle groups to maximize the volume I can pump out in a given amount of time. For instance the chest/back workout I posted above, the way I'd do that is one set of chest, rest 30 seconds, 1 set of back rest 30 seconds, and repeat until I'm done with all 4 sets of both exercises, then catch my breath while setting up for the next round of exercises. This allows my chest to rest while I'm doing the back exercise, but lets me keep my heart rate up throughout the entire hour long workout. So a split might look something like chest/back, bi's/tris, quads/hams, delts/calves, repeat. Although there are a ton of different ways you could structure it.

You have enough equipment to do anything you want man. Squats are not the only leg exercise out there and are not even the best IMO. Some other options to consider are front squats, BB lunges, DB lunges, Bulgarian split squats, peterson step ups, Romanian deadlifts, sissy squats, DB squats, putting a ramp/board under your heels on any squatting motion to emphasize quad recruitment.  Definitely go check out Tnation and Ben pakulksi's youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/user/BenPakIFBB

[David1]

On 5/11/2016 at 8:01 PM, Rocky said:

@David1 I've thought about doing a keto diet but i've heard many people say that they feel weak from the lack of glycogen (provided by sugars and carbs) to work out. But im getting protein supplements that are vegan even such as hemp protein powder, and have seen vegans such as vegan gains and jon venus who are quite big and lean body builders so i assume its possible so maintain and build muscle when vegetarian.

I don't think its possible to gain muscle mass while you're cutting. The whole point of cutting, is to 'tone'. To make the muscles more visible by losing as much fat as possible and (trying) to maintain as much muscle as possible. But you will lose muscle mass. You can do some lifting to give your body a sign that you need your muscles. But when you cut, you should shift to cardio or hiit, not strenght. 

Yes, ketosis will make you feel weak for a couple of days, but that gets better once your body made the switch.

[Rocky]

@ChimpBrain Sorry for the late reply, a lot has been going on in my life recently.

I have taken on your advice and have added leg day into my routine doing squats, but have also tried with some hypertrophy training doing approximately 6 sets of 10 reps with 30  to 60 second breaks in between at a slightly lower weight than what i did before for each exercise (generally more or less), and have noticed i have got that good soreness feeling that i hadn't had in quite a while  so i believe it's working .

As well as including whey protein in my diet as well now so i'll see how that goes.

Thank you for the advice.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Rocky