Questions on The Evolution of Interpretation & Mechanism of Evolution

[kieranperez]

Note: I will try to be as precise with language as possible. 

Why am I only conscious of my interpretative framework? I don’t understand what a framework really is. How does it exist? If I look at a TV, just by calling it a TV is giving it a story and I relate to that “object” as a concept based on my own interpretive framework which contains all my opinions, judgements, feelings, values I have in relation to TVs which is all based on my stage of development as the ego that I have. However, I also the ability to project that other people have different relative points of view about that same object that may be different from mine but I still can’t see it from their POV. Why? 

Furthermore, what is the mechanism of this evolutionary intelligence? Or, put more simply, what is the mechanism of evolution? How come I can’t seem to be conscious of it moment to moment? How come I don’t notice this framework when I’m out in the world? How is it that an illusory sense of “I” can evolve at all? I mean, I can notice (illusory) “objects” of form change moment to moment. Evolution does certainly seem to have an intelligence to it but how come I don’t notice it? Is this even possible? Where does this framework even exist? If I look at the room I’m in now if I was at a 2nd tier stage like say Turquoise as opposed to my current (at least cognitive) stage of post-structural Green I would probably relate to it pretty differently but the room would still look and still seem exactly the same so what is it that would be different? The interpretation itself isn’t even real, not to mention the fact the room I’m calling a “room” isn’t even real. 

[tsuki]

25 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Why am I only conscious of my interpretative framework? I don’t understand what a framework really is. How does it exist?

I suspect that you are able to describe the operation of that framework with language, but you are not yet conscious of it thoughtlessly. Do you meditate on your your language, observe the thoughts in a detached way?
This framework is a language that describes language. It is 'built' on top of language, and language itself is built on top of something more fundamental that can not be expressed linguistically. Language is an interplay between distinctions and analogy.

25 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

I also the ability to project that other people have different relative points of view about that same object that may be different from mine but I still can’t see it from their POV. Why? 

Because the mind cannot go beyond itself. Its linguistic boundaries are encountered as strangeloops.

25 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Furthermore, what is the mechanism of this evolutionary intelligence? Or, put more simply, what is the mechanism of evolution?

I'm sorry, but this is too vague. You will have to write something more about what you mean as 'evolutionary intelligence'.
If you wrote a paragraph or two on it, I may find it through analogy in my direct experience.
It may actually be a good exercise for you, giving the problem you're having. Don't try to be precise with words, be deliberate, like you were trying to write a poem. Try evoking feelings, writing like a baby.

Edited September 2, 2019 by tsuki

[Truth Addict]

Realise that everything you said is inside the spiritual paradigm. And that none of it is actually true.

[Aeris]

5 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Realise that everything you said is inside the spiritual paradigm. And that none of it is actually true.

Already taken from the page hahaha

[Truth Addict]

33 minutes ago, Aeris said:

Already taken from the page hahaha

Really?! I honestly haven't read the file yet ?

[kieranperez]

8 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Realise that everything you said is inside the spiritual paradigm. And that none of it is actually true.

First off, nothing that is relative is fundamentally true. I’m not going towards that in my own investigation and contemplation of this matter. 

This whole notion that all because something isn’t absolutely true that it doesn’t warrant questioning is just silly. 

Also it depends on what you mean by a “spiritual paradigm” as that is completely vague. 

Seeking understanding of something that isn’t fundamental isn’t a waste of time. It’s seeking understanding of your own illusory experience. 

You can’t grasp what something is an illusion without actually grasping what the illusion is. Which is what I’m trying to understand. 

Language and symbols aren’t real in yet you’re constantly using language and symbols by the mere fact that you’re reading and registering this. So language and interpretation is something you do, we could say. Okay... but what exactly is that? What is it you’re doung? What is the function or occurance in you’re experience that is creating language? How did it come to exist outside of blabbering (more language) more cosmologies and stories? How does it occur? 

Sorry but these are questions I have. If you wanna call it a “spiritual paradigm” go ahead. Doesn’t really make much of a difference to people who seek understanding. 

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

First off, nothing that is relative is fundamentally true. I’m not going towards that in my own investigation and contemplation of this matter. 

This whole notion that all because something isn’t absolutely true that it doesn’t warrant questioning is just silly. 

Also it depends on what you mean by a “spiritual paradigm” as that is completely vague. 

Seeking understanding of something that isn’t fundamental isn’t a waste of time. It’s seeking understanding of your own illusory experience. 

You can’t grasp what something is an illusion without actually grasping what the illusion is. Which is what I’m trying to understand. 

Language and symbols aren’t real in yet you’re constantly using language and symbols by the mere fact that you’re reading and registering this. So language and interpretation is something you do, we could say. Okay... but what exactly is that? What is it you’re doung? What is the function or occurance in you’re experience that is creating language? How did it come to exist outside of blabbering (more language) more cosmologies and stories? How does it occur? 

Sorry but these are questions I have. If you wanna call it a “spiritual paradigm” go ahead. Doesn’t really make much of a difference to people who seek understanding. 

Fundamentally, it is magical. It is impossible.

If you look carefully, you will realize that consciousness/reality is utterly mysterious. This is what reality is doing:

Reality never saw an apple, reality never experienced an apple, there has never been anything like an apple before in all of existence. There is nothing to be even imagined to be an apple. Yet, reality can grab into the air and manifest, consciously, an apple, without knowing what an apple is. It can manifest the knowledge of the apple, the essence of the apple, out of thin air, from absolutely no reference point.

It can do that with everything. It can manifest everything from nothing. It can manifest all possible dualities. Intelligence and understanding is not merely discovering an already present reality. Intelligence and evolution is manifesting the undiscovered, the unmanifested, from complete non-existence into existence.

 

If you have the potentiality of nothingness, what reality is doing is grabbing into that nothingness and pulling it apart. By that method it can manifest anything, it can manifest infinite things that are unimaginble, like colors and smells. Imagine there was no such thing as colors, imagine you have never seen a color in your life. Imagine that you could not even possibly imagine color. Yet, what reality can do is just pull into nothingness, and consciously manifest color without knowing what it is, because knowing what it is would mean that it would have already existed.

 

This impossbility of reality, this magical property is the foundation of all intelligence and creation. This is what consciousness fundamentally is. When you see it, you will immediately recognize that reality is fucking insane. It is literally impossible. There is no causation to it, there is no explanation, there is no root. The manifestation of all that is real is done by the manifestation of it itself.

 

Reality is basically like magic swimming through the sea of non-duality, and the swimming itself is the manifestation of duality. In Blackness there must exist Whiteness. Whiteness and Blackness equate to nothingness, which is what they truly are. Nothingness can produce literally everything, infinite sensation.
How many senses do you have?

You can see.

You can smell.

You can hear.

You can feel.

You can think.

These are a few of the aspects of consciousness which are pulled from nothingness into existence. There are literally infinite. They are so unfamiliar to you that you could not possibly imagine them. They are so strange like to a blind man color is. And there are INFINITE of these aspects. They are all manifested by magic, by non-causality.

The literally self-manifest. It is pure magic. And it happens at all times, with all aspects of realness. Language is one of these infinite aspects. Language is utterly mysterious and impossible in it's essence. This is what you have to recognize. Once you recognize this there will be no more words, because you will know that whatever it is is beyond all comprehension. It literally is impossible.

 

It's not you who are feeling, it is the feeling that is feeling. Feeling is self-existing. It took as much effort to manifest feeling as it took to manifest the entire universe. Which is to say no effort at all. They are both just aspects of realness or consciousness.

 

The answer to the question is found by observing how any aspect of realness is manifested. Once you see, you will know creation has no cause. It is magical.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Scholar

[Truth Addict]

@kieranperez

I see, and I apologise for how I come off usually.

If you're interested in further discussion, here's some:

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

First off, nothing that is relative is fundamentally true.

• What is a 'relative' thing? How is relativity even possible?
• What does it mean to call something 'true'?

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

This whole notion that all because something isn’t absolutely true that it doesn’t warrant questioning is just silly.

No disagreements here. Although the underlying assumption that 'something isn't absolutely true' is itself a mere assumption.

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

Also it depends on what you mean by a “spiritual paradigm” as that is completely vague.

To me, the spiritual paradigm is a collection of schools of thought, that are mixed in together, or, roughly speaking, only one single school of thought. Any of which, is imprinted in the students as the right and true pointers towards Truth or God or something like that.

I think that the spiritual paradigm is the biggest obstacle before liberation, as one would have to kill 'their' Buddha, which is the most precious thing they have, and the thing that has gotten them this far.

Of course, that's my spiritual paradigm, it's part of the teaching and learning process, and it's just a pointer. After that, it's no longer necessary.

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

Seeking understanding of something that isn’t fundamental isn’t a waste of time. It’s seeking understanding of your own illusory experience. 

You can’t grasp what something is an illusion without actually grasping what the illusion is. Which is what I’m trying to understand.

I would specifically be cautious with the words used here, especially the word 'illusion' and its derivatives.

What is it in your experience that you call an illusion? Is illusion even possible? If so, how?

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

Language and symbols aren’t real in yet you’re constantly using language and symbols by the mere fact that you’re reading and registering this. So language and interpretation is something you do, we could say. Okay... but what exactly is that? What is it you’re doung? What is the function or occurance in you’re experience that is creating language? How did it come to exist outside of blabbering (more language) more cosmologies and stories? How does it occur?

Exactly! ?

• Why call it illusion in the first place?
• Could that be the exact same case with everything else that you don't consider illusory?

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

Sorry but these are questions I have. If you wanna call it a “spiritual paradigm” go ahead. Doesn’t really make much of a difference to people who seek understanding. 

That's your right, brother. I'm not judging anything, just simply trying to help.

I apologise again for my arrogance and ignorance.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Truth Addict

[kieranperez]

3 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Although the underlying assumption that 'something isn't absolutely true' is itself a mere assumption.

Dude don’t get pedantic with me lol. There’s limits to language.

3 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Is illusion even possible? If so, how?

what you and @Scholar don’t seem to get is that impossibility is a limitation that is only possible as a possibility. There has to be a possibilty in order for something to even be made as an assumption or belief or reality that something is impossible. How? No one can say, but you can know. Bottom line: impossibility is nothing but possibility.

You also seem to be missing what existence and illusion is. Existence is an illusion and an illusion is existence. Illusion literally means ‘something that appears and seems one way but it’s actual condition is another.’ The sense of “I” is an illusion just like all experience but the illusion isn’t “impossible” because if you look into you’re experience there it is occurring. Now what’s the nature of it? Go find out. 

[Scholar]

22 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Dude don’t get pedantic with me lol. There’s limits to language.

what you and @Scholar don’t seem to get is that impossibility is a limitation that is only possible as a possibility. There has to be a possibilty in order for something to even be made as an assumption or belief or reality that something is impossible. How? No one can say, but you can know. Bottom line: impossibility is nothing but possibility.

You also seem to be missing what existence and illusion is. Existence is an illusion and an illusion is existence. Illusion literally means ‘something that appears and seems one way but it’s actual condition is another.’ The sense of “I” is an illusion just like all experience but the illusion isn’t “impossible” because if you look into you’re experience there it is occurring. Now what’s the nature of it? Go find out. 

I think you need to read more carefully what I wrote. You seem to have already constructed a very elaborate system of ideas and assumptions, I don't know if you will learn anything if you do not put them aside and try to learn something fundamentally unfamiliar. What you did was interpret my words by virtue of your own ideological system. Existence is not illusion, only illusion is illusion.

Existence is another word for consciousness or being.

[kieranperez]

35 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I think you need to read more carefully what I wrote. You seem to have already constructed a very elaborate system of ideas and assumptions, I don't know if you will learn anything if you do not put them aside and try to learn something fundamentally unfamiliar. What you did was interpret my words by virtue of your own ideological system. Existence is not illusion, only illusion is illusion.

Existence is another word for consciousness or being.

First off, stay in your lane when it comes to trying to lecture me and trying to stand on some pedestal. Don’t try and play that game. 

Second off, the Absolute nature of existence, consciousness, etc. use whatever word you want. If you’re here to cherry pick words, go ahead. However, I’m making a distinction between existence and the Absolute nature of existence.

Relative existence is an illusion. Reality, world, mind, self, objects, etc. are an illusion. Illusion doesn’t mean they don’t exist. It just so happens though that the condition of their existence or truest nature all happen to be the same. If you wanna call that Godhead, Emptiness, Nothingness, Void, whatever. I don’t care. It’s true independent of the word you slap on it. 

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

First off, stay in your lane when it comes to trying to lecture me and trying to stand on some pedestal. Don’t try and play that game. 

Second off, the Absolute nature of existence, consciousness, etc. use whatever word you want. If you’re here to cherry pick words, go ahead. However, I’m making a distinction between existence and the Absolute nature of existence.

Relative existence is an illusion. Reality, world, mind, self, objects, etc. are an illusion. Illusion doesn’t mean they don’t exist. It just so happens though that the condition of their existence or truest nature all happen to be the same. If you wanna call that Godhead, Emptiness, Nothingness, Void, whatever. I don’t care. It’s true independent of the word you slap on it. 

Again, you are not trying to understand what I am trying to communicate to you. Nothing I said is in disagreement with what you said here.

[Truth Addict]

3 hours ago, kieranperez said:

what you and @Scholar don’t seem to get is that impossibility is a limitation that is only possible as a possibility. There has to be a possibilty in order for something to even be made as an assumption or belief or reality that something is impossible. How? No one can say, but you can know. Bottom line: impossibility is nothing but possibility.

I understand that. That all is still in the domain of the rational mind, something abstract, which I personally consider mental masturbation. What I was trying to point out to you is beyond that, don't let the simplicity trick you.

3 hours ago, kieranperez said:

You also seem to be missing what existence and illusion is. Existence is an illusion and an illusion is existence. Illusion literally means ‘something that appears and seems one way but it’s actual condition is another.’ The sense of “I” is an illusion just like all experience but the illusion isn’t “impossible” because if you look into you’re experience there it is occurring. Now what’s the nature of it? Go find out. 

That's actually a very good example of how deceiving the spiritual paradigm is. You think that what you wrote is actually true, when in fact it isn't. It only seems true from inside the paradigm that you're operating from right now. If you look at it from the meta perspective, you'll start to see glitches in the matrix.

3 hours ago, kieranperez said:

Illusion literally means ‘something that appears and seems one way but it’s actual condition is another.’

That's a definition that exists only in dictionaries. Does it actually exist in your direct experience of the present moment though? Can you point to one thing in the present moment that appears and seems one way but its actual condition is another? Be careful with your answers. These are deal-breaker questions. If you knew the answers, you would have already been enlightened.

[Aakash]

@Truth Addict you do not know the absolute truth. I waited for your reply. But I can see from your words that you do not know what god is and so therefore you do not know who you are. 

When you realise the absolute truth, you can have no quarrels with anyone over anything. All is absolute truth and all exists. 

That is except the absolute truth, because well the absolute truth is all there is. Your explanation of reality is fundamentally wrong and epistamologically wrong and so you are Infact yourself giving a partial truth answer. A truth that only exists for yourself but paradoxically exists for everyone and therefore is only a stepping stone in the spiritual path. 

There is an end and it is not where you are pointing to 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Aakash

[Truth Addict]

5 hours ago, Aakash said:

@Truth Addict

When you realise the absolute truth, you can have no quarrels with anyone over anything.

lmao ?

[kieranperez]

6 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

That's actually a very good example of how deceiving the spiritual paradigm is. You think that what you wrote is actually true, when in fact it isn't. It only seems true from inside the paradigm that you're operating from right now. If you look at it from the meta perspective, you'll start to see glitches in the matrix.

Perspective itself is an illusion. A useful activity. However there is no such thing as another perspective.

There is no “meta perspective”. 

You haven’t had an enlightened as to what existence is.

The nature of existence was my first enlightenment experience. 

This is not something that’s up for debate. You’re not conscious of what existence is. 

6 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

That all is still in the domain of the rational mind, something abstract, which I personally consider mental masturbation.

Lol yeah because you’re reading it that way. I don’t care what you consider that to be. Your considerations of the matter are irrelevant. 

Impossibility doesn’t as what’s possible can only be “informed” by possibility. Don’t agree? Go study other enlightened masters the nature of possibility. 

Here’s even a video if this entertains you.

 

6 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

That's a definition that exists only in dictionaries. Does it actually exist in your direct experience of the present moment though? Can you point to one thing in the present moment that appears and seems one way but its actual condition is another? Be careful with your answers. These are deal-breaker questions. If you knew the answers, you would have already been enlightened.

Lol look at the very issue with the question you’re asking. You still don’t get what an illusion/existence is. Get the nature of existence then we’ll talk.

 

6 hours ago, Aakash said:

@Truth Addict you do not know the absolute truth. I waited for your reply. But I can see from your words that you do not know what god is and so therefore you do not know who you are. 

When you realise the absolute truth, you can have no quarrels with anyone over anything. All is absolute truth and all exists. 

That is except the absolute truth, because well the absolute truth is all there is. Your explanation of reality is fundamentally wrong and epistamologically wrong and so you are Infact yourself giving a partial truth answer. A truth that only exists for yourself but paradoxically exists for everyone and therefore is only a stepping stone in the spiritual path. 

There is an end and it is not where you are pointing to 

You of all people on this forum should not be lecturing people when you yourself have said you just follow Leo and don’t seek for yourself. Don’t go around lecturing people on matters you yourself don’t actually to become conscious of independently free from dogma and hearsay. You’re talking from a place of fantasies. 

[Truth Addict]

@kieranperez

Well, you're the one who's suffering, not me. I've found bliss, and was trying to point you to it. I can't help you if you don't want to help yourself. Keep on mentally masturbating, and you will get nowhere.

[kieranperez]

6 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

 

Well, you're the one who's suffering, not me.

I've found bliss, and was trying to point you to it. I can't help you if you don't want to help yourself.

Keep on mentally masturbating, and you will get nowhere.

Your shadow reeks. Please get it checked out. 

Lol if you’re gonna use the suffering I deal with in life as some sort of pull to win something all because your tits are in a tussle because I’m not putting up with your fantasies and projections that just shows how ignorant and selfish you still are. 

If you don’t like the questions I have on here then skidaddle. You’re on my post buddy.

Bliss isn’t something you find but you can keep lying to others and yourself if you still want to.

If you’re really gonna use someone’s vulnerability about their life as a way to have a one-up on them because you can’t just agree to disagree, admit your ignorance, or just walk away that shows how much you’re in your own spiritual narcissism. 

You ain’t awake buddy. Nor am I. Keep typing like a spiritual keyboard jockey if you want but keep your fantasies and projections you have of me to yourself. I dont not need to indulge your fantasies nor play coy. 

[Truth Addict]

@kieranperez

There's no one here. You're talking to yourself.