Attention vegan activists! QUESTION YOUR PARADIGM

[montecristo]

This is a very deep topic and for the sake of brevity I will gloss over much of it's vastness, we can discuss though.

The current activism paradigm that plant-based/vegan people have adopted is that animal agriculture and consumption is the single largest driver responsible for environmental degradation, human health degradation and economic inequality/food insecurity that we see all over the world today. I believe it is much more nuanced than "if everyone goes vegan all our problems will be solved".

But perhaps counter-intuitively based on what's discussed below it seems possible that a new paradigm may be emerging, one where ruminant animal agriculture can solve each of these problems. Here are the working assumptions I am operating under,  1. meat is the basis of an optimal human diet, 2. ruminant animal agriculture can reverse desertification/ be the key to restoring a balanced global ecosystem and 3.  create economic opportunities for unskilled marginalized people in parts of the world experiencing the ravages of environmental degradation.

Obviously nobody doubts that the current CAFO factory farming model is pure devilry but try to have an open mind and consider the following videos, these were certainly destabilizing to my own world view and I think warrant further exploration.

 

I believe the impulse behind veganism to be a noble one that I have deep respect for, just that it may be misguided.

[Shadowraix]

What do you think about perfecting synthetic meat? Same stuff chemically. I've always thought people will go to synthetic meat before they go vegan on a mass scale. 

[montecristo]

I'm no chemist so I cant say for sure, but my instinct is to always be suspicious of man made anything. It seems that since the dawn of humanity every perceived solution has only multiplied our problems

[Socrates]

The self-bias and self-deception is strong in this one

[Emerald]

So, what you're saying is that Veganism is the "single largest driver responsible for environmental degradation, human health degradation and economic inequality/food insecurity that we see all over the world today."

How do you even take yourself seriously?

How can a diet that less than 1% of the global population follows be the single largest driver of anything?

 

 

[Average Investor]

I haven't really seen anything that made me believe the opposite. Not any sort of activist or anything of that sort. I feel much better. Have a list of health issues that have disappeared since going vegan. And my health is optimal. I did not make the choice to save the world or anything of that nature. I like the idea that it could help the environment just like cutting down on plastics and what not. But when I go to the doctors and look at how dramatically my health has improved on paper and feeling it makes sense to me. My own success shouldn't matter to you though. Find what works for you. I'll watch some of the videos when I get the time, but I have already made some attempts at looking at opposing information. And try to keep my focus elsewhere after listening to research on the topic for a few months in the last year.   

 

As for it being the cause for ruining the environment or something like that have you ever looked how much green house gases the meant industry creates? I'm assuming some sort of fact based evidence towards that is not contained in videos. 

 

Maybe try for yourself at looking at the other end of the perspective. 

[montecristo]

7 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So, what you're saying is that Veganism is the "single largest driver responsible for environmental degradation, human health degradation and economic inequality/food insecurity that we see all over the world today."

How do you even take yourself seriously?

How can a diet that less than 1% of the global population follows be the single largest driver of anything?

 

 

reread the second sentence in my post more carefully, talk about cognitive biases jeez...

29 minutes ago, Socrates said:

The self-bias and self-deception is strong in this one

care to expound on this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

3

5 minutes ago, Average Investor said:

 

As for it being the cause for ruining the environment or something like that have you ever looked how much green house gases the meant industry creates? I'm assuming some sort of fact based evidence towards that is not contained in videos. 

 

Maybe try for yourself at looking at the other end of the perspective. 

I have carefully considered all sides of the issue, also not claiming to have all the answers here as I have no direct experience with the environmental matters, im just encouraging more open-mindedness within these paradigms and beliefs. Because if we practice radical honesty we will realize that all of this without direct experience are made entirely of beliefs and hearsay.

[montecristo]

1 minute ago, Shiva said:

Yes, you're right. It is much more nuanced than that. But more people who eating less or no meat would certainly help the environment a lot more than electric vehicles, for example. And the animals, too...

Perhaps you should worry more about your own paradigm than that of other people. Because, as you yourself say, it is based on assumptassumption  (meaning not facts).

all we have to go on here are assumptions if you are being honest with yourself. And I do worry about my own paradigm, I constantly question it but you telling me to not worry about other people's paradigm is shutting down civil discourse, so why are any of us on this subforum posting about societal issues then? 

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, montecristo said:

reread the second sentence in my post more carefully, talk about cognitive biases jeez...

I reread it again. I apologize.

But I don't see it as a cognitive bias.

I just mis-read something and I mis-read it multiple times. No need to be passive aggressive.

 

[montecristo]

 

14 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I reread it again. I apologize.

But I don't see it as a cognitive bias.

I just mis-read something and I mis-read it multiple times. No need to be passive aggressive.

 

i didnt think i was concealing any indignation lol. It is interesting that you read it multiple times and didnt see through your own cognitive bias. Genuinely not a dig at you at all, just think that is a great example.

 

11 minutes ago, Shiva said:

To support and help each other, rather than debate.

Self-actualization is all about questioning one's own world views and paradigms, not those of other people, that's a tempting distraction.

I'm not interested in debating anyone, rather prompting people to question their OWN paradigms like you say. Isn't that what leo does? Otherwise this fabulous forum will just become an echo chamber of people "supporting" each other.

 

But here we go not discussing the issue at hand and this thread is kind of devolving.

Edited August 31, 2019 by montecristo
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[Average Investor]

@montecristo Yeah, it does become hard to shift through the mud especially for the food industry. From any angle of it. And self bias is a major issue within it. Which is why I suggested my direct experience is pretty irrelevant.

I believe that our ability to be omnivores has been a big component of our survival.  Imagine a hard winter with a lot of snow, causing your crops to become frozen or just other wild plants. You would definitely need to eat meat in order to survive. Especially with the massive loss in calories in that type of environment. 

I am also not surprised at people who benefit from an all meat diet. Removing sugars, dairy, and a big slew of chemicals from your diet is bound to make you feel better. 

However, there is a massive amount of different vegan dishes that can provide all the needed nutrients. I would suspect I am at the point of not needing supplements now with  my diet. 

In terms of environmental effect I would suspect growing a lot of plants would be better than farming a bunch of animals. But I don't have any research on hand suggesting that. 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Average Investor

[montecristo]

my main issue with veganism is that it could potentially ruin the health of some people who go down that road. but thats not the thrust of my post.

Individuals who care deeply about these issues are likely to be vegan, those individuals have power to make an impact in the world so it is important that they are as circumspect as possible when deciding how to proceed.

[Average Investor]

@montecristo Yeah, I hear you there. I have actually suggested to my 80 year old grandma to not bother with it. As I would fear she would consider it out of a lack of research. I'd imagine her diet growing up was a lot more rich in home grown veggies, fruits, and meat. They had some sort of a farm type living and access to a lot more locally sourced goods. I'd believe somewhere in the middle of all of it is our current best option. Getting away from all of the chemicals and crap in modern food.

 I actually usually almost never promote someone to go vegan, but I will encourage people to quit dairy if they are open to listening. I have encouraged someone with lupus to try going vegan to help with their medical issues, but they did not bother. I believe the government has had a very big involvement in making people sick and fat using dairy. Lobbying from corporations has caused a massive spike in dairy and especially cheese consumption since the early 2000s. Our obesity rate in the US actually correlates with cheese consumption. While cheese is digesting it actually breaks down similar to an opiate. Just like companies tossing sugar in everything to get people addicted, take a look at what has cheese on it anymore.   

Even in "organic" produce they still use pesticides on it. Almost a very insignificant amount of difference between organic and not from what I have looked at. So shifting through all of this is very difficult. Especially when you have extremists on any end of it. If I even bother to mention something about vegan, I'd assume people think I am like a Jehovah's witness knocking at your door. So typically I try not mention to people I am vegan until I have to continually politely decline their offers for food. But surprisingly people will ask a lot of questions about it once I do mention it. Online here sure I will mention these things more often because I want to help promote people to find alternatives as this is a self help forum. 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Average Investor

[montecristo]

4 minutes ago, Average Investor said:

@montecristo Yeah, it does become hard to shift through the mud especially for the food industry. From any angle of it. And self bias is a major issue within it. Which is why I suggested my direct experience is pretty irrelevant.

I believe that our ability to be omnivores has been a big component of our survival.  Imagine a hard winter with a lot of snow, causing your crops to become frozen or just other wild plants. You would definitely need to eat meat in order to survive. Especially with the massive loss in calories in that type of environment. 

I am also not surprised at people who benefit from an all meat diet. Removing sugars, dairy, and a big slew of chemicals from your diet is bound to make you feel better. 

However, there is a massive amount of different vegan dishes that can provide all the needed nutrients. I would suspect I am at the point of not needing supplements now with  my diet. 

In terms of environmental effect I would suspect growing a lot of plants would be better than farming a bunch of animals. But I don't have any research on hand suggesting that. 

it's been well established that humans evolved under nomadic conditions, we werent even growing crops at that time, there was access to plant foods sparingly and in season only.

Usually people who go on such an "extreme" all meat diet are people who have long been trying to heal themselves, they usually arent people who get suddenly awakened from their SAD diet and go carnivore, generally they already ARE vegan. They do it as a last resort when they realize veganism doesnt work.

Be careful with thinking you dont need supplements, plants do not contain several ESSENTIAL nutrients, meaning you must obtain them from diet because the body does not endogenously produce them.

EPA DHA, vitamin D, vitamin A in the usable form of retinol, vitamin K2, all amino acids in optimal amounts from a single source the list goes on...

not to mention all the plant defense chemicals that can trigger auto-immunity if you dont have specific gut bacteria to predigest and nuetralize them oxalates, salicylates, lectins flavonoids and oxidants etc

btw anti-oxidants do not directly lower oxidative stress aside from vitamins E and C, they are actually pro-oxidant toxic stressors that  trigger an upregulation of the bodies master anti-oxidant glutathione and by this mechanism overall can help. but there is a sweet spot with this that is easy to overwhelm, the dose makes the poison.

Plants want to live too, just like animals, they just cant run away so they'll poison you.

ever notice how every plant food has a long list of supposed health benefits or actions on the body etc?

this is becasue they are chiefly  medicine, but nobody goes taking every pill in the pharmacy and expects to be healthy.

Does anyone seriously believe that it was necessary for human beings to consume plant foods to be healthy as they evolved given the necessity of surviving winters???

And for all of you who point to gorillas and massive ruminant animals as an example I encourage you to go into a field and live off of grass and leaves, im sure you'll be fine.

 

[montecristo]

10 minutes ago, Average Investor said:

@montecristo Yeah, I hear you there. I have actually suggested to my 80 year old grandma to not bother with it. As I would fear she would consider it out of a lack of research. I'd imagine her diet growing up was a lot more rich in home grown veggies, fruits, and meat. They had some sort of a farm type living and access to a lot more locally sourced goods. I'd believe somewhere in the middle of all of it is our current best option. Getting away from all of the chemicals and crap in modern food.

 I actually usually almost never promote someone to go vegan, but I will encourage people to quit dairy if they are open to listening. I have encouraged someone with lupus to try going vegan to help with their medical issues, but they did not bother. I believe the government has had a very big involvement in making people sick and fat using dairy. Lobbying from corporations has caused a massive spike in dairy and especially cheese consumption since the early 2000s. Our obesity rate in the US actually correlates with cheese consumption. While cheese is digesting it actually breaks down similar to an opiate. Just like companies tossing sugar in everything to get people addicted, take a look at what has cheese on it anymore.   

Even in "organic" produce they still use pesticides on it. Almost a very insignificant amount of difference between organic and not from what I have looked at. So shifting through all of this is very difficult. Especially when you have extremists on any end of it. If I even bother to mention something about vega, I'd assume people think I am like a Jehovah's witness knocking at your door. So typically I try not mention to people I am vegan until I have to continually politely decline their offers for food. But surprisingly people will ask a lot of questions about it once I do mention it. Online here sure I will mention these things more often because I want to help promote people to find alternatives as this is a self help forum. 

consuming the milk of another species seems very unnatural as well, so it makes sense humans didnt evolve to digest it properly.

I'm sure all monied interest are using devilish tactics to further themselves including the dairy lobby,  I also invite you to consider the profit margins that are made on wheat and other plant food commodities on the backs of immigrant slaves and then shipped halfway around the world.

 

[Average Investor]

@montecristo Yeah, I do still take omega 3, calcium, and b12. I would suspect I just do not get enough of the b12 without it. I am going to get blood tested next week though, so I assume they would inform me if I am deficient elsewhere. I think with my consumption of chia seeds is more than enough omega 3, but like you said I would probably need to see into it more. Coming winter I would consume D12 supplements too. But even for me having a big of experience within that realm it isn't something I am an expert on. I have spent the time researching what I eat though to help make sure I am keeping up well with other essentials and eating foods that would give me the vitamins from the suggested supplements. 

I was more suggesting towards the need for a more diverse diet to survive using the winter as an example. Where we sit at now we have access to all sorts of foods that we could not get access to. So that is why we now sit at the issue of what is right and wrong and not what is the only options. 

I will take a look more into what I can do with a diet. I have considered fish and what not. But to be fair things have just been going so smoothly I just have not really pondered adding more things. I just successfully cut off added sugar and I rarely will eat out. My diet is very well managed and prepared. My diet consists of a large variety of fruits, veggies, beans, quinoa. I snack on things like nuts and other protein bars and etc.  Breakfast is a smoothie that consists of fruits and veggies that get rotated.  Lunch is a similar thing to Leo's health soup, but I have beans and many of my own favorite rotating veggies in it.  And dinner is quinoa with a variety of things like mushrooms, avocado, 3 different Yum sauces, hot sauce, tofu, tempeh, and working to add things like black beans and other things to switch it up. I will admit I have hit struggle points of eating the same thing or not eating enough. But where I sit now things rotate very well and I don't seem to get bored.  

I work out almost every day for 60-120 minutes and seem to have plenty of energy for my small business that can eat up sometimes 60-70 hours in a week of work sometimes. I plan to run a marathon next summer if I am able to. But even this summer I completed a mountain hike that was over 500 floors and 24+ miles in 17 hours. So I feel my energy source is good. But monitoring it well with the blood tests and stuff I think can prove me well. But I have to admit for someone not 100% committed to the life style and research it could prove difficult. I feel like most individuals could massively benefit from some sort of professional nutritionist, even myself. I see hardcore athletes with a lot of money have access to that type of stuff, even getting meals specifically designed for them after months of tests and etc. 

Wheat is another beast I have not really researched. It is very scarce in my diet at this point as I don't keep any bread products around and pretty much completely stopped eating substitute meats and etc. But yeah, I'd imagine we exploit the shit out of anything that can make our society a profit unfortunately. I'll look into it more though as I never considered wheat to be something exploited. 

I'll take a look more into the other stuff as I can to. I've found this conversation to be well. As I have not had much of an informed talk with someone on the subject. 

[SerpaeTetra]

Can't some of those ideas in those videos be applied at the same time as people eating less meat?  

I think the debate is open for vegan diets vs. healthy omnivore diets.  Also, I'm open to the idea that it could affect people differently.   Most people that aren't vegan are missing many essential nutrients as well though.  In the US, something like 30+% of adults are obese.  From the research I have done, those people would greatly benefit from a vegan diet.   

I have seen many many articles from health organizations and doctors supporting a vegan diet, and very few that were against it.  Also, Animal Rights is usually the #1 or #2 reason people go vegan.  

[montecristo]

3 hours ago, SerpaeTetra said:

Can't some of those ideas in those videos be applied at the same time as people eating less meat?  

I think the debate is open for vegan diets vs. healthy omnivore diets.  Also, I'm open to the idea that it could affect people differently.   Most people that aren't vegan are missing many essential nutrients as well though.  In the US, something like 30+% of adults are obese.  From the research I have done, those people would greatly benefit from a vegan diet.   

I have seen many many articles from health organizations and doctors supporting a vegan diet, and very few that were against it.  Also, Animal Rights is usually the #1 or #2 reason people go vegan.  

Exactly my point! You just havent been exposed to differing viewpoints on this subject, we're all aware of paradigm lock within the domain of science arent we?

I can't argue much with you on the animal rights thing

omnivores do experience deficiencies due to several factors, the animals they eat are not raised on their natural diets and environments in addition to dishonoring the animal by throwing away 80% of it and only consuming the muscle meat.

my direct experience plus the fact that im a caucasian person who's ancestors evolved in a northern latitude tells me I cannot be healthy without eating animals.

 

[Moreira]

23 hours ago, Shadowraix said:

What do you think about perfecting synthetic meat? Same stuff chemically. I've always thought people will go to synthetic meat before they go vegan on a mass scale. 

Synthetic meat is a  processed food, that means some nutrients get degraded in the process and toxic ones can appear, like histamine, for example

[Nivsch]

Artificial "meat" from cells, tough it can't be healthy, because its artificial, is an acceptable way to spread veganism through altough there is better ways - natural foods.

But saying that we need animal agriculture and to keep some of the cruelty to animals sorry i disagree with that.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Nivsch