The Hill's Sanders Interview

[Leo Gura]

Nice interview by The Hill. The Hill's YT channel is great for political news.

 

[Gidiot]

@Leo Gura watched this and laughed when yang attacked him when he said a federal jobs guarantee does more than a ubi. 
 

In an ideal world I want both.

 

i don’t think a federal jobs guarantee is “indentured servitude” because it’s not like you’d be forced to work, it would just be an option right?

 

i am very worried about the plans and how we’d get them passed with Moscow Mitch in office, however, I think Bernie winning the election would be so much of a miracle that getting those things passed would have a domino effect. It really is a great movement and it’s refreshing to see a candidate so honest and in touch with people. He literally goes the picket lines and scream with people. It’s inspiring.

[Leo Gura]

It's not so much that Bernie will actually be able to implement his ideas. Most of them will never pass the Senate. But he will raise a public spectacle and shame the Republicans so much that it will be glorious. That's the beauty of Bernie. He's just the cranky old man who will badmouth the Washington devils.

He's what Trump should have been.

[Apparition of Jack]

@Leo Gura Hmm. You've got me thinking, because a huge part of the appeal of Bernie is his actual policies, which would help to ease much of the damage caused by late-stage capitalism. If most of his ideas won't get through the Senate, what would you say he'd be able to do to actually transform US society? Do you envision some sort of "social revolution" instead where the idea that big corporations, politicians, etc. get so harassed by the public dialogue that moving forward it would be impossible for them to act as predatory as they do now without massive backlash? Like how after the Civil Rights movement it went from being OK to be openly racist to being public suicide? Like say, if after Bernie's victory a corporation tries to cut worker's overtime pay, the amount of ill-will this would cause would force them to drop it and keep giving decent overtime benefits? And so on.

[Scholar]

1 hour ago, Apparition of Jack said:

@Leo Gura Hmm. You've got me thinking, because a huge part of the appeal of Bernie is his actual policies, which would help to ease much of the damage caused by late-stage capitalism. If most of his ideas won't get through the Senate, what would you say he'd be able to do to actually transform US society? Do you envision some sort of "social revolution" instead where the idea that big corporations, politicians, etc. get so harassed by the public dialogue that moving forward it would be impossible for them to act as predatory as they do now without massive backlash? Like how after the Civil Rights movement it went from being OK to be openly racist to being public suicide? Like say, if after Bernie's victory a corporation tries to cut worker's overtime pay, the amount of ill-will this would cause would force them to drop it and keep giving decent overtime benefits? And so on.

I think Leo would say that Bernie's criticism would contribute to raising the level of consciousness of people in the US and thus increase future likelihood of implementing these ideas. Whereas other leaders might not raise people's consciousness as much, and in the case of Trump might even lower it.

The priority however is to raise consciousness in general, as that is what will lead to more stable progress.

 

Bernie like Trump is very much a populist, just that his is pulling us towards green while Trump is pulling us towards blue and orange.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Scholar

[Leo Gura]

Bernie has already shifted the Overton window to the left.

Thanks to Bernie the democratic party is much more progressive. Free Healthcare is now supported by many democrats.

The most important thing is not policy per se but the changing in collective worldview.

The most important thing is not to free the slaves but to get people to realize that slavery is not right. Once people realize that slavery is not right, the freeing of the slaves will be inevitable.

Moscow Mitch can certainly win in the short term, but not in the long term because he is clearly on the wrong side of history. Because consciousness is always evolving to higher levels. Moscow Mitch can dig his heels in all he wants, but he will eventually lose that battle. Such obvious self-bias will not be sustainable.

He is already the most hated politician in Washington.

[Forestluv]

@Leo Gura It seems distinctions are arising between Bernie and Warren. Warren is progressive on a lot of issues, yet is reaching out to corporate democrats and talks about "working together as a team". Bernie is very much not reaching out to corporate Dems - he is calling them out and shaming them.

In terms of SD, I would put Warren at high Orange/low Green and her motivation is to unite and lead the Democratic party and country up the Spiral, while maintaining aspects of Orange. I would say this is the reciprocal Hilary Clinton - she was Orange-centered with bits of Green, yet seemed oriented toward maintaining the Orange-centered status quo. In contrast, Bernie wants to blow up the corporate democrats, revolutionize the party an pull everyone up to solid Green. As you mentioned, as president Bernie would likely not get much done - yet could radically raise awareness by constantly calling out and shaming Orange corruption.

In terms of consciousness evolution, I'm curious which path you think would be most efficient. I think Bernie's approach is more radical with high risk of backlash, while Warren is more gradual - yet also carries risks since she might just be temporarily taming corporations. For example, if Dems had 50 senators + the House and there was a contentionious bill for M4A, I could see Warren "working together as a team" with a Blue Dog like Steve Manchin from West Virginia and watering down the bill to get his vote. That's not Bernie's style. He would probably hold a rally in West Virginia to shame Manchin in front of his voters and Bernie may indirectly support a primary against Manchin. In some ways, Bernie is a green version of Trump.

[Apparition of Jack]

@Serotoninluv My intuition is that now is the time for a strongly-Green president like Bernie, ego backlash be damned. Obviously that is not to say he and his supporters should become needlessly toxic towards the stage Blue and Orange powers-that-be, but the fact of the matter is the pressures of the world at this moment in history are such that only solid Green can help us navigate the trials to come. It won't be a regular presidency, and I imagine there'll be a lot of political conflict even after he gets elected, but this is why everyone interested in consciousness, self-actualisation, etc. needs to get more involved in order to help integrate such a strong consciousness shift in society. For as tough as Bernie's presidency will be, the alternative - either a corporate stooge Democrat or a second Trump term - would be much tougher, what with the growing legitimacy of ethno-nationalism / aggressive climate denial / etc. If we put in the hard, gritty work now over the next few years, despite how tough it'll be, the fruits will be a much more compassionate and sane world in the next few decades / centuries.

[Leo Gura]

Bernie is more left than Warren obviously.

I prefer to elect the highest leader possible and let the chips fall where they may. The system will deal with it. Gradualism has been tried with Obama and it failed. Another 8 years of someone like Obama is going to make things even worse. The system needs some serious change of the status quo.

Bernie is not a Green version of Trump. Trump is a moronic lying narcissist. Bernie is an intelligent, honest, compassionate leader.

A Green version of Trump would be 20 year old Green Peace activist with bipolar disorder who wants to jail people for eating fish and force children to eat soy, who faces a criminal case for sabotaging factory farms.

[Forestluv]

@Leo Gura Perhaps a green version of Trump isn't the best way to describe it. I meant it more in the sense that Trump has taken over and is revolutionizing the republican party. I think Bernie could do the same in a Green version. For example, republicans are afraid to speak against Trump in fear of being shamed, primaried etc. Yet this is done with toxic motivations. I think if Bernie got the same level of public Green energy as Trump has red/blue energy, he could use that energy to transform the party up to Green - much the same as Trump has transformed republicans back down to red/blue. Yet Bernie is a healthy version of it. We are already seeing this transformation. After a few years of Bernie, Democratic politicians may be afraid to speak out against Bernie and his follows - in fear of feeling The Bern.  

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Leo Gura Perhaps a green version of Trump isn't the best way to describe it. I meant it more in the sense that Trump has taken over and is revolutionizing the republican party. I think Bernie could do the same in a Green version. For example, republicans are afraid to speak against Trump in fear of being shamed, primaried etc. Yet this is done with toxic motivations. I think if Bernie got the same level of public Green energy as Trump has red/blue energy, he could use that energy to transform the party up to Green - much the same as Trump has transformed republicans back down to red/blue. Yet Bernie is a healthy version of it. We are already seeing this transformation. After a few years of Bernie, Democratic politicians may be afraid to speak out against Bernie and his follows - in fear of feeling The Bern.  

I think you are right in a sense with describing him as a green version of trump. Bernie uses very similar optics, or rhethoric tactics as Trump, because it works. Populism just works in our time, tell them "You can't trust the corrupt government, you have to trust me!" is basically all that people want to hear. And it's somewhat of a valid desire in our times.

I don't think Bernie would be popular without these rhethorical tricks, and he knows that. People work on emotions.

[Cocolove]

Would there really be a huge backlash with Bernie? It feels like we already got that out of the way with Trump. The ideas of Bernie are not new, in fact the election of Trump can be seen as a backlash to those ideas. Now that the backlash is over(which i'm saying could be the case), Bernie will have a somewhat smooth presidency and we will stabilize at a higher level.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Populism just works in our time, tell them "You can't trust the corrupt government, you have to trust me!" is basically all that people want to hear. And it's somewhat of a valid desire in our times.

I don't think Bernie would be popular without these rhethorical tricks, and he knows that. People work on emotions.

I think there is a very important distinction here. Trump is oriented toward gaining power and driving others. Bernie is oriented toward giving people the power. I don't think he is saying "You can't trust the corrupt government, you have to trust me" - I think he is saying "You can't trust the corrupt government, you can trust the people".

A good example of this is with "democracy dollars". In this proposal, the government would give everyone $200 that they could spend on any candidate they want. Conservatives, libertarians, progressives, corporate democrats, AOC, Trump etc. This clearly shows that Bernie is not about accumulating power from corporations to himself. He is about dis-empowering corporations and empowering the public. If everyone got $100 to donate to their favorite candidate, it empowers the people - not Bernie, democrats, republicans etc. - because the people can donate the money to anyone. It transfers corporate power to people power. This is what makes Bernie such a rare politician. It's not about him - it truly is about the people - and that makes him a very rare politician.

Bernie and Trump have very different orientations in this regard. Trump is not a populist. He is a hyper selfish opportunist. This is an important distinction between red/orange and green/yellow. There is much more "full of shit" populism at stage Orange than stage Green. . . Trump >>> Hilary Clinton >>>Bernie

And Bernie has been fighting for others his entire life. In the 1963 he chained himself to a black woman at a protest and said if you arrest her, you'll need to arrest me too. He is a very special politician and person.

https://medium.com/@ShaunKing/you-dont-really-know-who-bernie-sanders-was-in-the-1960s-79628016125f

[Scholar]

58 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I think there is a very important distinction here. Trump is oriented toward gaining power and driving others. Bernie is oriented toward giving people the power. I don't think he is saying "You can't trust the corrupt government, you have to trust me" - I think he is saying "You can't trust the corrupt government, you can trust the people".

A good example of this is with "democracy dollars". In this proposal, the government would give everyone $200 that they could spend on any candidate they want. Conservatives, libertarians, progressives, corporate democrats, AOC, Trump etc. This clearly shows that Bernie is not about accumulating power from corporations to himself. He is about dis-empowering corporations and empowering the public. If everyone got $100 to donate to their favorite candidate, it empowers the people - not Bernie, democrats, republicans etc. - because the people can donate the money to anyone. It transfers corporate power to people power. This is what makes Bernie such a rare politician. It's not about him - it truly is about the people - and that makes him a very rare politician.

Bernie and Trump have very different orientations in this regard. Trump is not a populist. He is a hyper selfish opportunist. This is an important distinction between red/orange and green/yellow. There is much more "full of shit" populism at stage Orange than stage Green. . . Trump >>> Hilary Clinton >>>Bernie

And Bernie has been fighting for others his entire life. In the 1963 he chained himself to a black woman at a protest and said if you arrest her, you'll need to arrest me too. He is a very special politician and person.

https://medium.com/@ShaunKing/you-dont-really-know-who-bernie-sanders-was-in-the-1960s-79628016125f

Yes, but you said it yourself, Bernie is green and Trump is blue/orange. The similarity is the optics, not the internal motivation. They both use populism in their rhethoric.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populism

No one here is saying that Bernie is as selfish as Trump, it is argued that they use similar strategies in their ways of convincing people. It's not even a critique of Bernie, it's a compliment as it shows that he has an understanding of politics that many lefties lack.

I don't see how Trump is not a populist, populism just means that there is a narrative of the people vs the elite. Both of them use this narrative in their own way. Trump uses this rhethoric for his own gains, while Bernie most likely wants to to make positive changes.

[Forestluv]

43 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Yes, but you said it yourself, Bernie is green and Trump is blue/orange. The similarity is the optics, not the internal motivation. They both use populism in their rhethoric.

I don't see how Trump is not a populist, populism just means that there is a narrative of the people vs the elite. Both of them use this narrative in their own way.

We could make a distinction between populist rhetoric and populist embodiment. In this context, I do not consider Trump's rhetoric to be populist. The core of Trump's rhetoric is not a populist "we the people" vs. the elite/corporations etc. - it is much more tribalistic and seeks to divide "we the people" against each other. For example, to divide "we the people" into tribes based on ethnicity, religion and conservative nationalism.

Even when given an ideal scenario to be a populist, Trump falls flat. China is a good example. He could be using populist rhetoric that it's "we the people of America vs China and I will win this trade war for the American people". Yet that's not his rhetoric. He is far to narcissistic and he is getting worse. His rhetoric about China is all about him, his great negotiating skills, being an alpha male and "his" stock market gains.

I don't consider Trump a populist. I would consider Bernie a populist for both rhetoric and embodiment.

 

 

[Scholar]

23 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

We could make a distinction between populist rhetoric and populist embodiment. In this context, I do not consider Trump's rhetoric to be populist. The core of Trump's rhetoric is not a populist "we the people" vs. the elite/corporations etc. - it is much more tribalistic and seeks to divide "we the people" against each other. For example, to divide "we the people" into tribes based on ethnicity, religion and conservative nationalism.

Even when given an ideal scenario to be a populist, Trump falls flat. China is a good example. He could be using populist rhetoric that it's "we the people of America" vs China and he will win this trade war for the American people. Yet that's not his rhetoric. He is far to narcissistic and he is getting worse. His rhetoric about China is all about him, his great negotiating skills, being an alpha male and "his" stock market gains.

I don't consider Trump a populist. I would consider Bernie a populist for both rhetoric and embodiment.

Yeah, I guess we could say Trump is not a classical populist, but he uses a similar psychology. He basically convinced the people that he will replace the corrupt elite, the "establishment", with a better elite. This is probably part of his great success, and of course the tribalization is part of that.

Trump kind of used every trick he found to get elected. But still, he is definitely about distrusting the government and the classical media, making people paranoid and lose faith in the institutions which keep the fabric of society together. Which I think is one of the most dangerous aspects of all of this. Once people lose faith in the institutions, they will be free to be exploited by anyone.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Scholar

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Yeah, I guess we could say Trump is not a classical populist, but he uses a similar psychology. He basically convinced the people that he will replace the corrupt elite, the "establishment", with a better elite. This is probably part of his great success, and of course the tribalization is part of that.

Yes, now that I think about it - Trump has had more populist rhetoric than I gave him credit for. During the 2016 his rhetoric was much more populist. His mantra "Drain the Swamp" was very populist. Yet he seems to have drifted off his populist rhetoric since 2016. Part of that might be that he now has power and he is now "The Swamp".  As well, his "Fake News" rhetoric has some populist appeal.

If he shifts populist for 2020, I think it would be "the people vs. the media" and "the people vs. the FBI" - for example, the FBI is corrupt and they may come after you like they came after me. If Warren is the nominee, he will likely go with "the people against elites". I think these are hard sells, yet Republicans are very good at framing rhetoric and democrats suck at it. For decades Republicans have convinced lower/middle class to vote against their own economic interests. For example, Trump's tax cut was heavily in favor in the ultra wealthy - the lower/middle class got peanuts and many people paid more. With an effective populist message, 90% of the population would realize they didn't benefit and the ultra wealthy benefited. Yet republicans are so good at framing economics and taxes that about half the population don't realize this. Bernie and Warren have a much stronger economic populism , yet they need to do work to overcome prior economic conditioning. For example, about half the country doesn't understand that out-of-pocket expenses can decrease in spite of a tax increase. 

[Leo Gura]

Oh there will be major backlash if Bernie get elected. The corporatists will start flinging shit like never before.

See, we've never seen the corporate elite truly get their feet held to the fire the way Bernie would do.

Big industries like oil and gas, coal, pharma, health insurance, Wall Street, banking, etc. will be in an uproar and will invest billions in ads to manipulate their way back into power.

Billions will pour into the Fox News propaganda machine. It will be get real nasty. They will do everything possible to take Bernie down. Because this hits them right at the heart of their survival agenda: money!

The health insurance industry will fight to the bitter end like a cornered animal because if Bernie get his way, they're dead overnight. They have nothing to lose. They will go down swinging.

[Yog]

Oh my... It will be rough

We also got that Saturn-Pluto conjunction roaring up. I can smell it.
The last time they danced we got 9/11.
pre that the Internet,
pre that the end of WW2,
pre that the start of WW1

What will the cosmic clock give us mortal men this time.
I guess he will win !
Or..... war
 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Yog

[Leo Gura]

I'm liking Zizek's political analysis more and more.

He has a very sharp understanding of these issues: