Critique Of Veganism

[renegade_bee]

Not mine, but something I read in a youtube comment section that suddenly made me doubt my veganism (I've only started two days ago):

Any thoughts on this?

(Vegans please read) Ok, so here is my complete thesis into why being Vegan is a flawed concept (side note - I have studied nutrition at masters level at a top Uk uni, i've also studied dietary history & evolutionary biology) I apologise if this gets a bit lengthy.  Veganism is a deeply flawed concept, both environmentally & dietarily and future generation will laugh at this stupid diet, why? 

1) Veganism is a flawed concept. Why? Vegans, amongst other reasons, don't eat animal products to avoid the death of animals. But agriculture destroys more animals and the environment more than any other method. Growing tropical fruits destroys rain forests, shipped from across the planet. Is this really sustainable? A single cow can feed a family for a year if frozen correctly. Vegan ruins the environment more than ANY OTHER DIET! 

2) Guess what? Over 70% of the foods we eat today did not exist before the industrial revolution. From an evolutionary perspective, there is simply no way for our bodies to know what to do with these “foods” (which, as we all know, aren’t real food at all) If you're from Europe, is it preferable in your genetic makeup to eat bananas that grow in the rainforest???? 

3) Broken down by nutrient ratios, what we feed cattle (that isn't grass fed/pasteurised) to “fatten them up” is almost identical to the government-sanctioned food pyramid for a “healthy” diet! Is it any wonder we are in the middle of an obesity epidemic??  4) It was only when we started eating animal foods/fish that our brains doubled in size, this is a proven scientific fact, allowing for the modern human and all our advances. Interesting irony that the very capacity for making an argument for a plant-based diet comes from our ancestors’ move away from a plant-based diet! Ah, evolution wins EVERY time!!!!!!!!!

5) A recent Australian study was done with a group of aborigine who had grown up in a traditional hunter gatherer environments, and then moved into urban environments where they adopted modern diets. Alas, lifestyles and (unsurprisingly) health concerns such as obesity, type 2 diabetes, and heart disease arose. They returned to the outback & their hunter gatherer ways for a seven week period. They lost 25 pounds each and all their health markers (insulin resistance, blood pressure, cholesterol levels ect) normalised. Red meat, poultry, vegetables and seasonal fruits where plentiful for these men, I wonder what this study proves???

6) Another interesting point, are humans digestive tracts designed to eat meat?? Vegans say no, other people with working brains say YES - it turns out that much differs among animals, the markers lay in the composition of the digestive tract! Animals have evolved digestive tracts and livers to transform diverse food inputs into the uniform set of nutrients that they need for optimal health. Herbivores have foregut organs such as rumens or hindgut chambers for fermenting carbohydrates, turning them into fats and volatile acids that can be used to manufacture fats. Carnivores have livers capable of turning protein into glucose and fat.The truth is that humans are omnivores, despite what some vegan proponents would have you believe. We function best eating BOTH animals and plant together!!!! (Great study - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10702160)

7) Guess what? Meat/fish is VERY nutritious!! Did you know, that high quality, unprocessed meat is among the most nutritious foods in the world?! A 100 gram portion (3.5 ounces) of raw ground beef contains large amounts of Vitamin B12, B3 (Niacin), B6, Iron, Zinc, Selenium and plenty of other vitamins and minerals (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/6193/2) Vitamin B12 is particularly important because it can not be obtained in ANY amount from plants (arguably some sea veggies contain small traces) Studies show that most vegans who don’t supplement with B12, 92% are deficient in this critical nutrient (http://www.nutritionj.com/content/9/1/10) Unprocessed meat is also loaded with healthy fats, but meat from grass-fed animals contains up to 5 times as much Omega-3 as meat from grain-fed animals!!!! (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18641180) But the nutrient composition of meat goes WAY beyond all the macro- and micronutrients that we are all familiar with! - CREATINE forms an energy reserve in the muscles and brain and is found only in animal foods. Vegetarians are deficient in creatine, leading to reduced physical and mental performance (http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8207518) CARNOSINE functions as a powerful anti-oxidant and provides protection against many degenerative processes. Carnosine is only found in animal foods (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15872311) DHA and EPA are the active forms of Omega-3 in the human body and found primarily in animal foods. The body is inefficient at converting ALA (the plant form of Omega-3) to the active forms (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11083485)

8) Humans have been eating fish for millions of years, some cultures SURVIVE solely on fish and have zero disease. Studies show that regular consumption of fish fights Alzheimer's  Polyunsaturated fatty acids found in many fish may prevent damage to brain cells. Eating fish can also dramatically reduce the risk of high blood pressure, which is linked with dementia. A French study of 2000 people showed that those who ate seafood at least once a week had a significantly lower risk of dementia over a seven-year period than those who didn't. Cancer A Swedish study of 6000 men over a 30-year period showed that those who didn't eat any fish had between double and treble the risk of developing prostate cancer, compared to those who ate moderate or large amounts. Shellfish, such as crab and lobster, also contains selenium, thought to have cancer-fighting properties. Depression It's been reported that fish can help to ease depression. Again, it's down to omega-3 fatty acids, which are believed to raise levels of the brain chemical serotonin. Arthritis Population groups that eat a lot of fish - Inuits in Greenland, for example - have low rates of inflammatory conditions such as arthritis. Studies have also shown fish oils to be useful in relieving the symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis. Social benefits According to research carried out in Mauritius, children given lots of fish from the age of three are less likely to have criminal records by the time they reach 23. EVEN Skin According to dermatologist Nicholas Perricone, author of The Perricone Prescription, a salmon-packed diet can help smooth out age lines.

9) TESTING - The Vegan diet is rather new in terms of modern human diets. We haven't tested the vegan diet long term, I would bet all the money in the world in 10 years we will not be eating vegan. We will know the dangers & this stupid method of eating will be obsolete.

10) This idiot does not know anything about nutrition. Eating 50 bananas a day like some vegans do is VERY bad for you, thats a lot of fructose/potassium and your organs will suffer. They come from a eating disorder background and obviously sits around all day obsessing over diet and body, that alone is not healthy. You may argue some vegans look in good shape, so would you if you worked out all day like most do?

[ChimpBrain]

From a moral perspective I think veganism is an admirable ideal. From an environmental perspective I think the benefits are overrated. And from a health perspective I think it's a disaster. With that said I doubt myself or the author of the text above will get a lot of support here. You might want to inquire about this somewhere with a little less of a bias toward veganism as well if you're looking for neutral opinions. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by ChimpBrain

[Zane]

I feel like a major problem with the Vegan movement are the self-righteous vegans who try to shame you for eating me without taking it into consideration that I'm also an omnivore. I feel like I'm trying to be converted to veganism. I try to focus on having a balanced diet that does include vegetables and fruits and water and salads. I love the wide variety of food and I love trying new cuisines. If someone chooses to go vegan or vegetarian, I respect their own choice but I disagree.

 @DrMatthewsausage Thank you for using the evidence to support your point on why veganism wouldn't work! 

[Isle of View]

@DrMatthewsausage

His reasoning is plain stupid.

Ask him what happenes to the rain forest in south america to grow GMO soja beans as food for your pigs and cows.

Please, see the movie COWSPIRACY. You can easily find it.

 

 

His comment is a testimony of ignorance. 

Future generations will thank us for having started the trend of veganism. 
Actually the only chance this planet has is when we drop meat consumption significantly.

I understand when people eat meat, as it is so ingrained into our culture. But to an well informed citizen, there is no real reason to eat meat.

From spiritual perspective it is not only that you kill sentient beings, you also play with your emotional vibration. But that's a totally different story.

 

Kind regards, 
Chris

 

Edited May 7, 2016 by Isle of View

[Isle of View]

And, by the way, only because humans eat meat for a long time, it doesn't mean it was the best thing they could do. 

Here are some well known persons from history who were vegans/vegetarians...

 

 

Cheers
~Chris

[appleaurorae]

I think it's a troll. Or a psycho. Or a 14 y/o kiddo.

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Shellfish, such as crab and lobster, also contains selenium, thought to have cancer-fighting properties.

Brazil nuts contain the largest density of consumable natural selenium on earth.

Quote

Social benefits According to research carried out in Mauritius, children given lots of fish from the age of three are less likely to have criminal records by the time they reach 23.

Yeah, this is totally a joke. I don't even want to comment on all of this BS. It's most probably a copypasta of some troll from 4chan.

Edited May 7, 2016 by appleaurorae

[Gmork]

13 hours ago, Shiva said:

Yes, true but most of agriculture exists to grow food for animals. For example, growing soy is relatively destructive to the environment. However, about 96% of the soy we grow is fed to animals.

Any of 99% agriculture is destructive, and herbicides, chemicals are really bad overall, i cant imagine what would happen if we suppose to use more plants to feed 7B, not mentioning the cost of changing, fertilizering it (and product soooo much more of it artificial !), dealing with all other practical problems its just stupid. It is simply necessity to have animals in large amount.

Quote

True, but you gotta feed that cow a ton of plants and water. You could as well use the land to grow plants you can eat yourself. Then you might as well feed 10 families.

Plants need more water, and its hard to feed divers diet to family when you dont have 10 of different kind of plants... and a lot of needed equipment and storage place.

 

14 hours ago, Shiva said:

Who knows? 

Our brain is big and nice because we can use ketons, and because we can supply it with good dense energy source.

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Yes it may be nutritious but that doesn't change the fact that it is not a suitable nutrition for 7B people in terms of sustainability. 

It is, vegan need for agriculture is most definitely not. If we want to sustain planets, 7B needs we need more efficient, better genetics plants, and animals.

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You cover this already by eating about 100g of meat

Now this is super funny. PROTEIN =/= MEAT 

 

The fact that you actually said that disqualify everything in your post. You probably have NO nutrition or agriculture knowledge.

[Isle of View]

@Gmork

Sorry, but you only talk what you have been programmed to believe...

Chris

[Gmork]

This iconography and youtube video is some kind of a joke...

1/6 of a acre, its absolutely not possibile to feed 1 person with healthy full diet. Ask farmer.

To include amount of water that plants use to calculate how much it cost to create meat is another ridiculous argument. My point was that animal use magnitude less water that plants. And water in agriculture is not an issue in first place! Its not much lost if any.

[Isle of View]

1 hour ago, Gmork said:

To include amount of water that plants use to calculate how much it cost to create meat is another ridiculous argument.

Why is it ridiculous?

Your argument is flawed.

You can use the same space and water that is needed to grow food for animals to grow food directly for human consumption? Don't you get it?

 

 

 

[nbolt]

On 5/7/2016 at 10:57 AM, DrMatthewsausage said:

Not mine, but something I read in a youtube comment section that suddenly made me doubt my veganism (I've only started two days ago):

Any thoughts on this?

post is complete nonsense.

[Armand]

I'm on my third week at trying to live as a vegetarian, and taking tips from a few vegan's on here.  @Neill You pointed out what I was about to quote as well. It's not even rational to begin questioning a healthy lifestyle that you've only tried out for 2 days. You've got to give it a chance first before ruling it out as non beneficial. I'm seeing huge changes in my lifestyle, and physically I've improved a great deal from a couple of weeks ago. Just two days wouldn't of allowed me to see or even acknowledge the progress that was happening to me.  

I'm not even calling myself a vegetarian. I'm trying it out, and so far it's really giving me more energy than I ever thought possible. I admire vegans, and think that going vegan can boost longevity as well as save people who are living unhealthy lives.

[Gmork]

@Shiva @Isle of View  You dont understand my arguments. Im not arguing that "to get full proces of getting meat is less water than to grow plants"

My arguments are about how agriculture is much more complex and have to much practical problems to change stuff and its to much of need to have animals.

• Water is not a problem in agriculture
• Plants need a lot of water. 
• Animals dont need much water at all
• To grow food for animals indeed  needs water.
• Total water we would use if we dont have animals would be huge

And one more point:

Vegans would not be saving any cows, instead they would slaughter population of animals we have now and destroy what from species view good for them (as they are surviving and growing in number and diversity !)[Tho of course its not moral ideal to use them as we do]

[Boss]

I wouldnt worry too much about veganism, there never has and never will be a vegan family tree going more than a few generations. 

 

[Isle of View]

4 hours ago, Gmork said:

Total water we would use if we dont have animals would be huge

Total water we would use if we eat less animals would go down.

But you may be right, I really don't understand your reasoning all too good.

Thanks for the attempt to clarify your arguments.

 

Chris

 

 

[nbolt]

4 hours ago, Gmork said:

You dont understand my arguments. Im not arguing that "to get full proces of getting meat is less water than to grow plants"

My arguments are about how agriculture is much more complex and have to much practical problems to change stuff and its to much of need to have animals.

• Water is not a problem in agriculture
• Plants need a lot of water. 
• Animals dont need much water at all
• To grow food for animals indeed  needs water.
• Total water we would use if we dont have animals would be huge

so much ignorance 
 

4 hours ago, Gmork said:

And one more point:

Vegans would not be saving any cows, instead they would slaughter population of animals we have now and destroy what from species view good for them (as they are surviving and growing in number and diversity !)[Tho of course its not moral ideal to use them as we do]

LOL what utter nonsense. yeah because you care about their lives soo much, to selflessly save their species you will subject their entire population to a continuous cycle of abject suffering. It sure is difficult, but you'll force that cheeseburger down each morning, for them.

*sigh*
human cruelty through unconscious self-justification knows almost no bounds 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Neill

[Isle of View]

41 minutes ago, brovakhiin said:

Unless we're going at it from an ehtical standpoint, then there's room for discussion. But arguments on which diet is universally healthier for ALL humans is stupid.

So could you list out some benefits of meat that a plant based diet can not deliver?

[Isle of View]

9 hours ago, brovakhiin said:

9 hours ago, Isle of View said:

10 hours ago, brovakhiin said:

Unless we're going at it from an ehtical standpoint, then there's room for discussion. But arguments on which diet is universally healthier for ALL humans is stupid.

So could you list out some benefits of meat that a plant based diet can not deliver?

No because that is completely beside the point of my post.

It is?

From what I read you say:

10 hours ago, brovakhiin said:

Humans, their genetic makeup and living conditions are different, so what's the point of arguing "this study says x and humans history says y, so z MUST BE THE BEST DIET!!!" when you should just see what works best for YOU.

so please, enlighten me, what benefits can meat deliver, that a plant based diet can not?

So what is the point of your post then?

 

~Chris

[Falk]

I´m vegitarian since 7weeks now and i honestyl never felt better, i will keep this for the rest of my life as far as no dramatic event happens... my occasional headaches have gone, i need less sleep, i just feel good all around.

Thinking about putting in some vegan days each week,

Also i thought about a concept where you basicly are vegitarian as a basis but have 1 or 2 vegan days each week and maybe eat fish once or twice a month ... i mean why not combine the benefits of the different diets!? The middle-way is definatly healthy and imagine if everyone would do this starting today! this would be huge!

[stevegan928]

On 5/8/2016 at 2:08 AM, Gmork said:

Any of 99% agriculture is destructive, and herbicides, chemicals are really bad overall, i cant imagine what would happen if we suppose to use more plants to feed 7B, not mentioning the cost of changing, fertilizering it (and product soooo much more of it artificial !), dealing with all other practical problems its just stupid. It is simply necessity to have animals in large amount

We had to grow food for those animals though. Couldn't we just not raise a bunch of animals to feed/kill and instead use those same crops to feed people? It will still cause damage to the environment but it seems like it would be considerably less.